SUMMARY KEYWORDS

parents, kids, drinking, relationship, teenagers, feel, conversation, teens, daughter, teen years, talk, alcohol, people, hard, life, therapist, happening, thought, nicotine, anxiety

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + + Casey O’Roarty

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there. Today we are talking about calming the drama of parenting teens and tweens. And I know from talking to women who are trying to stop drinking or in early sobriety who have kids who are in their tween years or their teenage years. That can be a source of stress and worry and a lot of effort that can make it hard to navigate when you first remove alcohol. So, I’m really excited to introduce my guest today.

Casey O’Roarty is a personal growth development junkie, a stand up paddleboard fanatic, a dance floor burner, parent coach, positive discipline trainer and the adolescent lead at the spreadable.com. For the last 15 years her work has encouraged parents to discover the purpose of their journey and provided them with tools and a shift of mindset that has allowed them to deepen their relationship with themselves and with their families. With over a million downloads her podcast joyful courage supports parents each and every week with relevant topics and raw storytelling for parents raising tweens and teens. She offers parenting summits classes, a membership for moms of teens, and online coaching. So, Casey is the author of joyful courage, calming the drama, and taking control of your parenting journey. And I’m so excited to have you on welcome, Casey.

02:53

Hi, thank you. Thanks for having me.

Casey McGuire Davidson  02:56

Yeah, I’m really excited. I mentioned to have this conversation because a lot of the women I work with have kids who are either in the tween years, or the teenage years, my son is also almost 14 years old, he turns in about two months. And when your kids are young parenting is challenging, in a lot of ways, but it just evolves to a new set of joys and challenges as they grow up.

03:25

That is very true. It’s very true. Lots of different, you know, the intensity, I think that we feel in those early years, there’s a My experience was there seemed to be kind of a sweet spot between like six and 12. And then adolescent showed up and intensity in a different way came with it. So yeah, my kids are my son is 16. And my daughter just turned 19 Last week, so I’m in it. I’m in it.

Casey McGuire Davidson  03:57

Yeah, absolutely. Well, so maybe to start telling us about what kids are going through in the tween years in the teen years. You know what you know about how they’re developing? What’s changing and what’s important to them, and kind of how they’re navigating life? Yeah,

04:13

I mean, while there is so much I mean, books and books and books written about this, but I think, you know, the most important thing to remember is that adolescence is a really weird time. It’s a time where kids are moving out of childhood and towards adulthood, but they’re not there yet. They’re in this bizarre in between. The brain development that happens is very real chemical wiring. That’s happening. Dan Siegel talks about how zero to 12 brain the brain is like a sponge and it’s just taking him information, taking an information growing, growing, growing. And then as kids move into adolescence, there’s a pruning process and didn’t different parts, different things that were kind of absorbed in those first 12 years, you know, kind of get pruned away, if they’re not really focused on kids that are moving through adolescence, they have really intense emotions, they’re wired for intense emotions, they’re wired for novelty seeking, they want to find what’s new, the dopamine is all out of whack and hits, really, they have really, really big highs and really, really low lows, here, relationships become really important to them. And that social engagement is really key during the teen years. And, you know, there’s a lot of potential around creativity and possibility. All of this has a beautiful light side, like yay. And, you know, novelty seeking can lead to risky behaviors that we would rather our kids not engage in right here. You know, that pull towards pure relationship can also come with a closing off of the parental relationship, emotional highs and lows can be black holes that we all get pulled into, right. So, there’s a lot there’s a dark and a light of both and in brain development, and I think that we sometimes get this idea that if we’re doing parenting, right, our kids aren’t making mistakes, and everybody gets along. And you know, it’s straight A’s and active involvement and No, no issues. And it’s just not true, right? I mean, parenting during the teen years is super messy. And I have found that the most important work that I’m doing as a parent myself is finding my feet inside of the messiness is getting ever better at being okay and present with the messiness because it has been extremely messy, in my experience, and I am been a positive discipline facilitator and working with parents since my kids were little itty bitty, I was under the impression that somehow I was gonna breeze through adolescence with these, you know, rainbows and unicorns, and it wasn’t going to be that hard. And it’s just, it’s just not true. It’s just not developmentally appropriate to have that expectation. And, you know, it’s a lot of personal growth work for us on the other side as parents.

Casey McGuire Davidson  07:23

Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense tonight, I have to say, when you were like, well, you can tell me your experience, I’m definitely on the early days of parent, I mean, parenting a teen or tween. So, my son is 13. And with COVID, he’s been pretty close to home for the last two years, like he pretty much missed the end of sixth grade all of seven. And even now, he’s, you know, finishing eighth grade, but he doesn’t go out with his friends that much just because of the quarantine non quarantine measures and stuff like that, I have to say that a lot of my perspective, just on the diversity of experiences that parents struggle with, has come from observing my husband, he actually works in a fifth through 12th grade school. He was a sixth grade teacher for many, many years. Then he was the Dean of Students for the whole school where you deal with a lot of discipline issues, as well as sports as well as other things. And now he’s the middle school head. So, a lot of interaction with parents, as well. Yeah. So, I mean, of course, I see the good and the challenging. And a lot of his work, he says is almost explaining to parents, because he’s seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of kids come through how to interpret what their kid is going to what to take really seriously and what to kind of let go a little bit of and so that’s just my perspective, as an outsider, my son hears all the time, everything that happens, you know, no names, but like, Don’t ever do this, that list of, you know, all the things, but I have positive that he’s going to do 90% of them.

09:14

For sure. For sure. Because our kids don’t this is the sad thing for us is that our kids do not learn from what we tell them not to do. We learn humans learn through experience, right? They learn through experience, they have to be able to say, oh, yeah, that happened to me one time, or I made that choice one time. And that doesn’t mean that every child, you know, it’s not the same for every kid and I love that. Your husband is a resource for parents because, you know, I really struggle with that question of, you know, when, I mean, sometimes it’s obvious when to take something seriously. I mean, it’s like holy shit. You know, sometimes it’s like, we know when our kids are in a lot of time Trouble. And we need to get a team, right? Like we need outside support. So, when we’re talking about something like risky behaviors, one of which all of us want to avoid, which is substance use, I love how it’s broken down in positive discipline for teenagers the book, there’s a section around dealing with teens and drugs. And it reminds us that there’s really a continuum of use. So, at the start, it’s experimental use, it can move into social use, it can move into regular use, and then into problem use. And then chemical dependency. This isn’t every kid though, right? Like, this isn’t even most kids, most kids, you know, they might hang around in experimental use, they might try it once or a couple times. And then madness isn’t really for me. Or maybe it’s a social use thing. It’s when regular when things start to become regular, that we get to say, like, Hmm, I am not so sure about this and go to our kids. And this is something that I think I’ve talked, I mean, I talked about this just this morning with a client, when we’re talking about risky behavior, I think it’s really important when we have that gut response, to be able to say to our kids, like, Oh, I’m getting some, I’m getting some hits, that may be something going on with you. And I’m, I’m just, I’m just taking a guess that you might be, you know, experimenting with weed. And I just want to talk about it with you. Or, you know, I’ve heard that there’s been a lot of drinking happening at parties and such, and I’m just wondering if you’re seeing it with your friend group. You know, I think it’s so important for us to be able to have really hard conversations with our teens and our tweens so that they know that we can handle hard conversations. And like I was saying before around the resource that your husband is, it’s also a really great place to get some information directly from our kids, versus making assumptions from a place of fear. So, like one of the things that I do with my kids, my son, my son is 16. And just like your son, like it’s been a slow rollout into high school, I mean, pandemic happened halfway through eighth grade, ninth grade was all online. You know, he’s now in 10th grade. But there’s not, I mean, he’s just now which is funny, because oh micron, but whatever. But it’s feels like his social life has kind of taken a little bit of an upswing, he can drive, you know. And it’s I’m so excited for him. It’s so fun. And he went to a party after Homecoming this last fall. And it was like, it was so excited. It was his first party. And it was a kid on his basketball team and a senior who was a senior, he’s a sophomore. And he was like, Well, can we? Can I go? Like, can I go? And I was like, well, let’s talk about that. You know, what do you what are you expecting to see? Like, what are you expecting to happen?

13:01

He, he was like, well, there’s probably going to be drinking. I was like, okay, you know, so how are you going to navigate that? Like, are you planning on drinking? What’s your plan? He was like, No, I don’t I don’t want to drink. And I was like, So what’s it what’s a way that you can kind of feel like, you’re not a spectacle? Like you’re, you know, moving amongst the group, but you feel competent and comfortable and not having a beer like, what are you gonna do? You know? And he’s like, Well, I think I’ll just, you know, I’ll just get a cup, and I’ll just fill it with water. And I’ll just have a cup of water with me. And I’m like, You know what, that’s a great plan. I love that plan. You know, and, and we also talk about the difference between drinking one beer and drinking eight beers. We’ve had conversations about like, jello, we were watching some show, and there was jello shots. And I was like, Do you guys know what jello shots are? I remember, just like, very casually having a conversation and talking about it. Well, it’s like a shot of alcohol, but it’s in jello. And so, it’s really sweet and kind of fruity. And, you know, do you know what your body does with hard alcohol? Like, we have all these conversations, not only, you know, it’s illegal for you to drink. And I’m not comfortable with you drinking. But also, here’s what it looks like, here’s what it does to your body. Here’s how it like another thing that I like, I like to say to is like, if you are in a situation where you’re curious about experiment with something, you know, like assess the situation. Who are you with? What if things go sideways? Do you feel like the group of people you were you’re with have your back? Right? Are you in an environment where if something goes sideways, you’re going to be safe? Right? So not only do I want my kids, you know, it’s like giving them condoms like yes, here’s some condoms. Please don’t have sex. But here’s some condoms. Right? Please don’t use substances. It would be better for your brain and your life. If you didn’t expect You’re meant was substances and you’re going to step out the door and make your own choices. So, let’s talk about how to navigate it. When you are in the in the choice point, right, which is really hard

Casey McGuire Davidson  15:19

yeah

15:28

Oh, me too. Me too

Casey McGuire Davidson  15:35

yeah oh, yeah, I’m getting drunk. Like that was me at 16. He, you know, I but I had a very different relationship with my parents. You know, it was it was a totally different context for me. And I did believe him because we’ve had lots of conversations. Yeah. And I also said, Well, if you decide to want to bring questions for you know, maybe one first one that just one,

16:05

you know, like, when he knows how No, I don’t think I want our sessions around this kind of stuff. Actually, he knows that had he say, Well, I want to, like drink that wouldn’t have been started. Well, I used to drink a bottle of wine at night, right? That’s just 90. Our relationship would have been more like questions, it would have been there, you know. Okay, so let’s, let’s play that out. Let’s see, you know, how would that. Yeah. Would that play out? Let’s talk about Yeah, right. And the same pot because I’m less worried about my kids are way less interested in drinking than they are pot smoking. So, but all of this is true, because it’s, I mean, I think pots showing up at parties just as much as alcohol, if not more, with our kids. Yeah. Me too. My not college but yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson  17:30

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s probably that’s very different from when I was in high school and college for sure. So, I had a ton of questions about, you know, the fact that you don’t do this hard line in the sand, I don’t want you drink heat. And then you can’t go or whatever. Because I know that’s going to come up for a lot of parents on like, wow, you’ve got a really open relationship with your kid. Is this part of positive discipline? Yeah, hearing 100%? Or is it just a personal choice. But before we go there, one of the things you said was, you have this very open conversation with your kids around alcohol, and the difference between one and like, four and what it does to your brain and your body. And I’m thinking some women may be listening to this, and very uncomfortable with that situation with that conversation. Because, you know, as I did, I drank a bottle or more of wine a night, every night. That was just what I did before I stopped drinking it. So, a lot of women a don’t want their kids looking at them too closely to be like, Wow, if it’s really that bad, and it does XYZ, why are you first I will say, right, it’s a whole positive discipline versus personal choice.

18:59

If and your entry and not having hardline might be like is such a hypocrite, I would say it’s, you know, like, you know, positive discipline, a lot of parenting philosophy that is very relationship centered, or that doesn’t mean that there aren’t positive and, um, and facilitators that would be listening to me, you know, saying, Oh, no, we do have injuries in our houses, and I’m about there, you know, I think if you’re gonna have a hard line, because the relationship as an older got to be there, it’s got to be there. And I don’t I can’t drive my kids all places. I don’t mean it’s not like them have parties here or like and lose, oh, there’s a whole what I understand is, but they’re gonna walk out the door. They’re gonna make bad choices. And it’s a it is a rare kid who’s going to be confronted by their group of peers, not confronted by but in a situation with their group of peers. So desperate, they all want to fit in, they all want to belong. Right? And to think that it It’s enough like, Oh, my parents don’t want me to do this, for them to be able to navigate that situation. It’s just not enough. I mean, again, there is a rare kid who it is and great, great. There is tons of curiosity tons Yeah, well, and I think it’s this intersect two of the impulsivity of the brain of the desire for new experiences of the very in the moment, you know, kind of mindset that teenagers have. It all comes together. Yeah, throw a ball of alcohol into the mix. And it’s like, Whoa, let’s check this out. Right?

Casey McGuire Davidson  21:01

There’s a lot, for a lot of kids. Let’s check this out. Like, oh, that is not heavy chain, right? Like conflicts like the I feel better that will get them right. Or hey, just like for some kids, there’s a whole other conversation around addiction is in the blood, like saying and when I had a conversation with Jessica Leahy, who wrote the addiction inoculation came out last year shy and for her this conversation is it is a hard line conversation. What is addiction is something that’s in their family. And so, I want to say that’s a whole nother conversation to have. It’s not something that’s in my line right now, in my family line. So, and it doesn’t mean we don’t talk about addiction, we talk about all the things. Now, would I be okay with it if my kid came home got dropped off at the end of the night stumbling drunk? Hell, no. I would sit with them. I would make sure they were safe. And then the next day, we would have some conversations. Right about how do you first one would be how do you feel? Tell me about last night? Who were you with? Like, give I want to hear that. Like almost with enthusiasm, not like into like, Hey, buddy, that sounds like a wild time. But like, wow, you had an experience last night and tell me about it. And tell me like, and I want them to be learned to be critical thinkers about their experience, which is going to require me to kind of guide them through the critical thinking, versus my experience as a 16 year old was like, Oh, my God, what did I do last night? I’m kind of embarrassed. But I’m going to just push it away and think about it was so fun, right? Like, nobody was guiding me to really critically think about my behavior. And then going back to that worry, if you’re listening right now. And you know that you’re in that tension of your own behavior, being problematic, and worried about what you’re battling for your kids? You should be because what we model is absolutely, that is clear as messaging as we can give, you know, and in our family, where my husband doesn’t drink at all, which is only in the last few years, and is a good thing. I’m a very light drinker but haven’t always been. There, it’s pretty open. Like, for us, it’s not drinking, it’s pot smoking that comes up that’s become relatively normalized.

However, you know, there’s one parent that is pretty open about it, and another parent who isn’t. So, they’re getting the both and of what this could look like. And I think if you’re sitting inside of like, Oh, God, what am I modeling? I think the best thing to do is to be really open and direct with your kids, especially if they’re like, in the 15, 16, 17, like older teens. Like Wow, it’s really hard for me to be inside of my experience, where I know that there are things that I want to change about my relationship with alcohol, and also be parenting you and trying to make sure that you stay safe. Like this is really a hard place for me to be I think the more transparent we can be about our growth and places where we’re really working, the better because we’re letting our kids know like we’re all human beings having human experiences. And I remember, and I can tell this story cuz I’ve told it before on my podcast, like the 3rd or 4th time that I busted my daughter with a nicotine vape and I was just like, oh my god, I mean, I had a whole body experience – was so pissed. Like, I thought we were done with this. I was so mad. I went into my room. I sat on the bed, and I was like shaking his breathing. And I was all of a sudden, I thought about all the things that my parents said to me about smoking like, yeah, only losers smoke,

25:11

basically, in a variety of different ways the message was if you smoke, you’re a complete loser, and you won’t ever have a good life. And when I was 19 years old, I started smoking. Right? So how well they did on that if it was up, you know, if we’re thinking that it’s, it’s up to us to make sure our kids don’t develop bad habits. Well, they failed. And I continue to struggle with nicotine. I mean, it’s not a daily thing. But man, if I couple of, if I have a drink. It’s not very long after that, that I’m like, who’s got the smokes, right? And so, I’m sitting on the bed, and I’m thinking about all of this. And I realized, like, Oh, it is not my responsibility to make sure that my kid isn’t addicted to nicotine. And so, I went into her room. And I said, I have been holding this idea that it’s my job to make sure that you don’t have a lifelong addiction to nicotine. And actually, that’s ultimately up to you. Like, you’re really the one that gets to decide this. I’m going to interrupt and intervene and interfere, when it becomes apparent to me that this is happening. Like I’m not giving this vade back to you. But I’m going to hand over the energetic responsibility, because it’s yours. And then I and I walked away. And about a month later, yeah, she, I came home from somewhere and my daughter had a vape pen and a little bottle of nicotine juice on the counter. And she said, You didn’t know that I had this. And I forgot about it until this weekend. And then I remembered, and I can’t stop doing it, and I can’t stop thinking about it, and I need you to take it away. And I was like, Oh, this is what it looks like. You know, it was such a glory, parenting moment, in a sea of lots of imperfect moments. I was like, yes, because ultimately, it’s their journey.

Casey McGuire Davidson  27:15

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Definitely, and one of the things that you also said was you think it’s good for parents to be open with their kids about their own struggles. And I have to say that it’s one of the most beautiful things I’ve seen with the parents who have stopped drinking or on that journey. I mean, one of the things obviously, it is not for everyone, depending on where you are, but a lot of times my clients will tell their kids, hey, I’m taking a break from alcohol. I’m not going to drink for 100 days. And that does a couple things. Right one, you have accountability. A lot of parents don’t want to have their kids see them doing something they said they weren’t going to do. And you can even say, Yeah, it’s hard for me, you know, because this has become a habit for me. And it’s a habit I want to break because it isn’t serving me. And you can tell them like, Hey, I haven’t had a drink in a month, here’s how I feel. Or, you know, my anxiety is down or my energy’s up or whatever. And it doesn’t mean that you can’t change your mind. But it does mean that you’re open to them about, hey, this is a habit that had is going on too long. It’s not making me feel the way I do. It’s becoming really important to me. And I’m trying to break it. And I do think that that’s a way to talk to them about it. I know a lot of women I know, you know, who have teenagers, once they get comfortable with not drinking do have those conversations sort of from personal experience, which sort of takes the hypocritical aspect out of it, like, Hey, here’s what I’ve seen. I, you know, just want you to be aware of it, because it is something that can kind of take over. The other thing I noticed was some I quit drinking when my son was eight. And he knew I drank, right? He used to be like, when I had a bad day, he’d be like, Mommy, I’ll get you some wine. Right? Just, you know, he knew it made me happy in the same way. He was like, Do you want to sit on the couch and cuddle. And when I stopped drinking, he didn’t really notice. But then after a couple of weeks or a month, I was like, Hey, I haven’t had any wine. I’ve switched to x. And so, he was really proud of me, which made me feel good. And I don’t know what he knew about wine at eight years old. He was just proud that because I was proud. But one of the things I did so after I stopped drinking, I started going to therapy, and taking medication for anxiety, because it was something I had really been masking. And one day I was upstairs, and I was taking my pills in the morning. And he said, Oh Mom, what’s that? And I started to say, Oh, it’s just for a headache or something. And then I kind of stopped. And I was just like, actually, this is medication because I have anxiety, and I get really wound up. And it’s something that I talked to my doctor about. And now I take medication and I feel better. Just because I know kids have a ton of anxiety and just to know that we struggled to and it’s okay to talk about was something has never got in my family growing up.

32:36

Yeah. I think that’s so powerful. I think that’s so powerful. And when we are talking about teenagers, you know, unless you’re, you know, really hiding, you’re drinking, they know you’re drinking, like they know you have a habit of drinking, you know, and I think it’s, so I think it’s having these conversations is like then there isn’t this big secret that it isn’t actually a secret, but it’s being treated as a secret. And it just opens up so much in relationship like even just you sharing with your son. You know, I was at a well, I was in my backyard. We had friends over I remember when my kids were little and one of the husband had a I don’t know why I keep talking about nicotine vapes. But he had a vape. And my son was like, what is that? And he was like, oh, it’s medicine. And I was like, No, it’s not medicine. It’s nicotine. I said, and some people you know, some people use it, and some people don’t. But I was like, Listen, buddy, you are not going to sit at my picnic table and call your vape medicine.

Casey McGuire Davidson  33:43

Thank Yeah, like, let’s

33:44

just Oh shit. So, I just, I’m just all for transparency. And I do recognize to like, depending on where you’re at, with your own personal growth and healing, you know, transparency might feel really scary. And I love that you said, you know, medication and therapy, I mean, therapy, therapy, therapy, like, because usually substance use has everything to do with, you know, the demons that were trying to quell and, and the fear, right of not having the vise is real. So, you know, I recognize that it might be too big of a leap to step into transparency with your teens today. But they see you. Yeah. You know, they’re paying

Casey McGuire Davidson  34:35

really helpful depending on your relationship with them to tell them, hey, this is something I’m trying to cut back on. Or this is something that is not that healthy for me. And I’m working on it. And I’ve had a lot of clients do that with their tweens and their teens and their older children. And it actually has been very well received. Yeah, you know, and just people say Wow, I’m really proud of you. Because they know, like you said, they know if you’re drinking too much, they see it. Well, one question I have for you too. And this was actually in a conversation we had before the podcast. I said, basically, we talk about triggers a lot when you’re trying to stop drinking, when you’re drinking, which is essentially something that makes you angry, or lonely or overwhelmed, or whatever it is that you want to drink to make that negative emotion go away. And I said, and you corrected me, which I loved, I saved it. I said, Yeah, and kids can be really triggering. You know what I mean? Like, I quit drinking, when I the two year old, her tantrums really made me want to drink, right? Her, I do everything for her. And then it’s not enough made me feel like, you know, I can never do enough for her. And I don’t do anything for myself. And it was sort of like a very demanding and non-rewarding thing to serve Him. And, you know, I know with teenagers too, when they aren’t acting respectful. Or they take or they don’t do what you say they’re gonna do, or they sort

36:14

of which by the way is like what teenagers do, right? So, if your team does those things like Congratulations, you have a regular teenager.

Casey McGuire Davidson  36:22

Yeah. And I said, Oh, they’re triggering. And you said, and I took note of this, our kids don’t trigger us, our kids trigger something unhealed or not processed inside of us. And can you tell me about that? Because I like wrote that down and highlighted it? Yeah, well, it’s very therapist it. Yeah. And I am not a therapist. But, you know, it’s this idea. And you can hear it when you’re amongst friends. And you’re all kind of talking about the things that drive you crazy. And you start to hear, like one person say, Oh, my kid will never make their bed or their rooms a mess, and it just makes me crazy. And then the person next to them might say, like, I don’t really care about their rooms, it doesn’t bother me at all. And then the next person, you know, everybody’s got their thing. And it’s because it has everything to do with what’s going on inside of us of the meaning that we’re making of the behavior that’s happening in front of us. And we make meaning based on the lens that we have the beliefs that we’re holding around, I mean, if we’re going to go really positive discipline around our sense of belonging, and significance, and we develop our underlying beliefs around belonging and significance very early on in childhood, through our relationships with our parents, through our relationships in our family, and then it expands out and the relationships we have with peers and with the world. And we think we’re all you know, fine. And then we have these kids who are not pushing our buttons there, they could care less about our buttons, they don’t even know that we even have buttons, all they know, is they want what they want when they want it.

 

Of course, don’t we all. And they’re just trying to navigate this new world that they’re in if they’re to, or even if they’re 12, or 18. Like, it’s still a pretty new world, they’re still pretty limited in skills and experiences. And so, you know, they do their due, and we’re in relationship with their behavior. And it’s sparking something inside of us. That is, you know, something that we’ve been carrying around with us. And so, you know, that isn’t to say, like, I mean, even two different kids. So, I’ve got a son and a daughter, I come from a long line of mothers and daughters, that have had really intense relationships. The oldest, the oldest is the daughter and the, and the mother is the oldest in her family and like, and for whatever reason, I have these two kids, my oldest is my daughter, my youngest is my son. They can do the same behaviors, but it hits differently when it comes from the daughter. It hits differently. I’m much quicker, not so much anymore. But when they were younger, and I was less skilled and less just kind of open to my own growth. Man, I had rage response towards her. And it had nothing to do with her. And everything to do with my relationship with my mom and how she treated me and what was inside of our relationship that needed healing. And until I realized that, you know, it was a really painful and shameful place for me to be because I was aware that this kid got under my skin so quick, and I knew she was aware of that too. And I didn’t know how to fix it. I didn’t know what to do until I started doing my own personal growth work and started to really understand that it’s mine. It’s my stuff. It’s not hers.

And so, in the context of what we were talking about, like those triggers, and especially in the context of triggering to drink, I think that’s kind of a low hanging fruit. You know, like, if my kid wasn’t so such a pain in the ass, I wouldn’t have to drink. Yep. Right. I think that that is an easy thing to blame. Yeah, I think it’s much harder. And I’m sure you’ve talked about this a ton to turn inward. Yeah. And to ask ourselves, like, what our tools like I’m feeling, why am I feeling next? What can I do to shift that right? Like, and sometimes we’re looking for reasons to be rile ourselves up to give us a reason to say screw it, and dive in on the line, which then makes your emotions even more unstable.

Yeah, and there’s tons of opportunity for that, oh, God, every day your ration or today was boring, or today was hard, or it’s Yeah, or Thursday. But one of the things you said was, that I thought was really interesting, as I feel like, we all sort of turn one way or the other. And I noticed that, because we sort of have discussions about this often between me and my husband, he is, I don’t want to say very hard, but it really bothers him. When my son doesn’t try his hardest when he, you know, sort of does good enough, it doesn’t go the extra mile and I would say in schoolwork or in sports. And I’m always like, I don’t know, I think he’s pretty good. I thought he did a great job. Like, it’s good enough, you know, just like less. And he’s like, Oh, you don’t give a shit. I was like, It’s not good. I don’t give a shit. I just don’t want to ride his ass over like, handwriting. And I don’t think lazy, you know, this, like personal thing on it. Because he doesn’t do that. Now, for me, like, I just want him to feel loved. I just want him to feel happy. And, you know, I think that’s a direct reaction to with my parents feeling like I always had to be the Straight A girl in order to get the pat on the head. And working really, really hard to please them. And you know, when I want for my kids is for them to feel loved and safe. Regardless, always, you know, and I think it’s, like you said, that is all about me. And that’s all about what I got or didn’t got. And I get and I think for my husband, his dad was the same way he is now. And he’s like, he’s got to do this or else he’s not going to have a successful life. He’s gonna mail it in everywhere, which is the message he got?

Yeah. And does he mail it in everywhere?

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:56

No, my husband is so hard on himself. He’s so hard. I’m like, Oh, my God, nobody would be right up over this. And right. It doesn’t make him happy. You know, it’s like, Dude, you’re good. Chill out.

43:09

Yeah. Well, and I think it’s, I think it’s both. And right. Like, it’s not either or, it’s not you’re better than or he’s better. It’s but it is, it’s knowing when and this is really hard. I mean, I was just in a conversation about this. Knowing when to lean in knowing when to lean out. But inside of all of it, making sure that at the end of the day, what you know, you are doing exactly what you’re doing, Casey, who is making sure that they know that they’re loved and accepted no matter what, I think that the tricky thing is remembering, and this is kind of like with the nicotine pen and my daughter, like at the end of the day, your child is gonna is on their own journey. Yeah, right there on their own life journey. We get to be stewards and caregivers for a little while. But ultimately, they’re going to leave us and they’re going to be living their life, just like you and I are sitting right here. I mean, I’m 48 years old, I had that time at home, I’m living my life, our kids are going to be the same. And at the end of the day, as they leave the house and move into their young adulthood, and do we want them to have a bunch of baggage that they need to go to therapy around because we rode their ass too hard, or they didn’t really ride their ass enough or we were too permissive, or we were too authoritarian. Like, at the end of the day. You know, for me, the most important piece is the relationship even when and my kids have had a hard time. I mean, my daughter and I’ve podcast about this. She had a really big mental health challenges with anxiety and depression like clinical anxiety, depression dropped out of school completely two weeks into 11th grade. We danced with some eating disorder for a minute, it I mean, it has been really rough.

Yeah. And the illusion that I could control the situation or control the narrative. She completely shattered, right? Because I couldn’t. Like I had to trust in her self preservation, I had to let go of the idea that teenagers don’t know what they want. And if we don’t ride their asset, or we don’t make them do XYZ, then I had, I had no choice on whether or not I was going to hold on to that. And so, because I had no choice, I chose why you always have a choice. So, I decided, like, Okay, I’m gonna, I’m going to walk with her, and I’m going to stay present with her, even when I’m scared. Even when I think she’s doing the wrong thing, I’m going to be with her and let her know that I love her no matter what. And, you know, she’s we went through an extensive DBT program together Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, which is amazing. And she got her GED. And she went through a six month esthetician program and is a licensed aesthetician in the state of Washington and is now in her first quarter of community college. You know, she still has a hard time with anxiety, but she’s got coping tools like she’s going to be fine. And at the end of the day, she knows she can come to me with anything. Yeah. Yeah, anything?

Casey McGuire Davidson  46:27

Well, I know. That’s, that’s what I want. Well, that was something I actually wanted to talk about. Because I know, with my husband with his school, one of the biggest challenges they face isn’t actually the drinking or the drugs. It is anxiety and depression and suicidal ideation. And all of that mental health stuff that kids these days often come up against as well. And that’s again, hard, like, how much do I push them? If you know how much do I coddle them? And of course, you’re saying, oh, hurt not about you. But also, you worry about them. And you’re worried about hell? Yeah. All this stuff. So, what do you do? Since you’ve been through it? Like in the early days, and then when it really comes to a head?

47:16

Yeah, well, I freaked out, I didn’t sleep, I stopped talking to my parents for a while because they were so adamant about education and your value as a person. And I didn’t even know and like in their mind, it’s like, well, you don’t have you can’t let her do this as if, you know, so I just cut off that for about five months. And then I went to therapy myself, and I made sure that I had a I had a very short list of people that I would talk to and pour out all of my fears. I was honest and raw. And you know, so that was the beginning. First thing I did was freak out.

Yeah. Right.

And the hardest thing is, I see my child in so much pain, right? Like she was in so much pain. And that was heartbreaking. And I don’t have any mental health issues. I do not have anxiety. I am not. I don’t have depressive episodes. So, it was also learning. Learning about what that means, right? I think that, you know, a hard conversation that comes up for me when I share this story is when people say, Well, you know, isn’t it just kind of being a teenager? Aren’t they all anxious? And I’m here to say No, right?

I mean, yes, some kids, but that’s there are kids. I think we’re dismissing a lot of kids who have legitimate debilitating. Yeah, social anxiety. And, you know, it’s not the same as when we were teenagers. It’s not, well, pandemic, we cannot negate the fact that there’s a global pandemic, and none of us have ever seen or lived through anything like this. And our teenagers are like, What the actual fuck is happening right now? Yeah, so there’s that the whole social media. I mean, I know it’s kind of like well, God social media, but it is the fact that they are on their phones connected and watching and, and like, like, valuing things that are so weird and empty, and it is wreaking havoc on them, right? Both of those things like they’re feeling their parent, their relationship with their parent is just kind of that gap is getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So, what do you do? You get really curious with them, and you learn how to listen, without any kind of judgment without any kind of how am I going to fix this? Or how am I going to talk them out of how they’re going to how they feel. You learn how to validate that their experience is real for them. Their experience is real for them. You do your own work at night, I’m thinking about the DBT Program because DBT – Dialectical Behavioral Therapy was actually developed in Seattle, for people with borderline personality disorder. And it is the number one treatment for kids with eating disorders, suicidal ideation, self-harming, you know, extreme anxiety, depression, it is what they’re using. And it’s so powerful because it is, and I know, you know, you know about DBT, right?

You do?

Yeah, yeah.

So, what if people don’t know who are listening? Will you describe it a little bit? Yeah. And I only know about it, because I went through the program, right, but it’s really about supporting people. So, people, you know, kids, teenagers, especially with these extreme behaviors tend to have really black and white thinking. And they’re really stuck either in the extreme emotional mindset, or the extreme rational mindset and DBT is tools and strategies to support people in finding that middle path and finding that wise mind. And so, in our experience, we went through a program that was done with fidelity the way it’s written. So, Rowan, my daughter had once a week a therapy appointment with a DBT therapist. And then once a week, she and I met with five other parents and teenagers, couples, and to therapists, and they call it skill, the skill workshop. And so, for an hour and a half a week, we every Wednesday, we met with this group of people, and we learned mindfulness techniques, interpersonal relationship skills, we learned about radical acceptance, we learned about wise mind, as well as variety of other tools to be practicing every week, and then the therapist would reiterate those things and talk to her about how she was using the tools. And it was we did this for six months,

Casey McGuire Davidson  52:02

I can see that you did her. So, you were learning that at the same time. And yeah, that’s incredible.

52:09

And I needed it. I mean, I’ve been doing parenting since 2007. I was trained to do parent education. Not but what I was going through with my daughter, you know, I mean, I was like, we got to the teen years. And I was like, Have I been duped? Positive Discipline? Like, how does this look like with teenagers like I really went through kind of a come to Jesus moment and reached out to my community and reached out to people who either had them had teens or had already gotten to the other side and had stories and experiences of their kids not being perfect, because I don’t want to talk to anybody who’s like, Oh, my kid was so great. And it was so easy. And I just loved every minute of it like, okay, great. I’m not interested in your story. Because it’s just a fluke. It’s not like, Oh, you must be a really good parent. It’s just the combo of the temperaments worked out that way, you know? So, yeah, it was it was really, really useful. For me, the biggest piece I think, is I am such a fixer. Like, if somebody tells me they’re having a hard time, My instinct is to be like, Okay, what are we going to do? What should we do? How can I help you? How can I make you feel better? Yeah, that’s me, right? I’m like, what advice do good, so let’s just get to that. Yeah. And Rohan is has been my teacher for the last couple years. Like, I’m not looking for that. That is not actually helpful. When you tell me get outside, go do some yoga, you are not validating me, you are not seeing me, you’re making me feel worse. Right? So, I’ve learned things like to ask, you know, what do you need right now? Do you? Are you? Do you need validation? Or do you want to hear some ideas? Right, so I asked to make sure that I understand what it is that she needs in the moment, or, and I’ve also gotten a lot better at just taking in the information and not saying anything, or just like, wow, that’s, that sounds really hard, or that’s really interesting. Or great, right? Versus like, Oh, tell me about it. I want to know everything. How can I fix it? How can I make it better? You know, like, so?

Casey McGuire Davidson  54:21

And kind of not question you. Right? I think anytime our kids are going through something, you’re like, I should have done something differently or I should do something to react to this and that’s normal. Yeah. You know, cuz yeah, they’re responsible for their emotional well-being because then their kids that’s, you know, that’s what we do. And the other thing that I think a lot of kids go through, I know I did, but I’ve also talked to other people and therapists, parents and I see I do it too. Like we want our kids to be smiling and happy and Okay. We don’t like it, if they know it at school, or if someone’s bullying them or whatever. So, they learn to just tell us the good stuff, right? Because that’s what we want to hear. If they tell us something negative, we try to fix it often and move on as quickly as possible.

55:20

Mm hmm. Yeah. Or we teach them that it’s not okay to have this big emotions, right? I am relating to that I; it is very hard for me to sit with a lot of negative emotion with somebody else. It’s just really, and I’m really curious about that. Like, what? Why is that so hard for me, and I think that’s kind of a place that is really an interesting place for people to go to is, what is it? Why do we want to fix everything? And, and why do we think, you know, like, for me, it’s like, Why do I think that I’m the only one with really good ideas?

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:02

Yeah. I know, right? Completely. I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but I’m betting you have I saw something the other day was like, like that image of an iceberg. And it says parental rage, parental anger. And above the water was the yelling, the irritability, the easily triggered resentment, outburst of anger, short fuse. But underneath the water was burnout and unmet needs and hormones and financial worries, and relationship challenges and feeling alone and feeling a lack of support. And I was like, oh, yeah, you know, because so many women I talked to, that’s what they’re dealing with. They’re burnt out. They don’t have support. They’re lonely, they’re anxious. And they have all these pressures of work and family and life and pretending to hold it all together.

56:59

Yeah, well, and then they wake up in the morning, and they say, Today, I will not yell. Without doing anything to work under the surface of the iceberg. And I, I love the iceberg metaphor, we talk about it a lot in positive discipline, and one of my mentors talks about how we think we can chip away at the top. But when we chip away at the top of the iceberg, it just continues to come to the surface, we have to melt it from the bottom. That’s how we handle the things that the tip is we melt it from the bottom. And that goes for our own self-care, like you’re talking about right now, like our own stuff that are that’s actually behind the beliefs behind our behavior. But even it’s the same is true with our kids. Right? The same is true with our kids. And like what you were saying about drinking using substances because you were insecure, and it helps. So, if that, if that’s our child’s experience, and we just keep saying, don’t drink, don’t drink, don’t drink, instead of like, let’s talk about how you feel in social situations. And let’s help you with some coping tools there that’s actually going to do more to take care of the problematic behavior than threats and punishment. Yeah, when we find out that they’re using or experimenting, so I’m I iceberg metaphor is just brilliant in so many different ways. I love it.

Casey McGuire Davidson  58:25

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s so interesting. I was saying in another podcast that when I started going to therapy after I stopped drinking, because I still had all these emotions, and I didn’t want to go back to it. I see these teenagers in there. And my therapist was amazing, and a teenager, women after me, and I was like, I am so jealous that they are getting this awareness and support and someone holding their hand who’s an external person at that age, like had I done that it probably would have saved me years of, you know, unhelpful thought patterns and, you know, coping tools that weren’t the best for me.

59:08

Maybe, if you were a teen who was open to it, yeah. Right. Because I think that’s, you know, with my daughter, she was 14, the first time I dragged her to a therapist, and she went a few times and didn’t, you know, didn’t want to go back. She went through probably four or five therapists over the course of two years, you know, in between times was like, I’m not doing that I’m not going there, you know, and then things got so bad that it was kind of like a let’s take stock right now. You know, like, clearly, this isn’t something that we can handle. This isn’t something you can handle on your own. And there are people that are trained to help you and it wasn’t until she found the gal that she sees now that she’s seen for the last couple of years, and it was the right fit. So, I also want to say if you are someone Who is listening and thinking like, wow, you know, therapy for your child would be really useful. Like, don’t think that the first person you connect them with is going to be the match either like Be diligent around finding the right person and the right timing at 14, she wasn’t in a place to really dive into the personal growth that she has since and I’m the same way though Casey, I’m like, Oh, my God, the level of self-awareness that my 19 year old has, yeah. And like the stuff she’s into, and the conversations that we get to have with each other. Like, I was, when I think back to what I was doing in 19. I’m like, Oh, I mean, granted, I was in college, I was checking off all the boxes. It’s self-awareness. Yeah. Healthy Living. No,

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:49

not happening. And I totally agree with you on finding the right therapist, I probably had four over the course of my adult life before I found the one that I absolutely love to I did, you know, some really good work with. And I think that one of the things that women get into, especially if you’re a people pleaser, is you’re not quite connecting with a therapist, but you don’t want to hurt her feelings or his feelings, right? You don’t want to cheat, like only relate to her dresser, right? They’re gonna know and, you know, you have to change salons to like, across town, because you don’t want to feel guilty. So, I think that if you’re listening to this, and you are going to therapy, but you don’t feel like you’re getting out of it what you need to or you don’t connect with them. Please try another one. And please ask for recommendations because there are you know; everybody needs to find the person that that they relate to.

1:01:49

Absolutely. 100% and I totally am laughing about the people pleaser thing like, like we owe somebody. Yeah, no, no, we get to you get to choose, you get to decide. Well, I

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:02

know you wrote a book joyful courage, calming the drama and taking control of your parenting journey. And you talk in there about identifying your body’s physical reaction distress, what our past experiences add to the conflict with our kids. And then you talk about the three B’s method and change your reactions and how to grow your relationship. There’s a lot in that book. But if someone is listening to this and wants to change their relationship change the drama in their relationship with their teens with their tweens. Where did they start? Do you have a couple tools?

1:02:40

Yeah, well, I mean, in that book, if anything about that book, I wrote that book at the start of my daughter’s freshman year of high school. So, it was right at the beginning of the hard years? Well, I think the first thing that you do is you kind of take some stock around where you’re at currently in your relationship and take some responsibility for why you’re there. Right? So, teens are guarded, you know, and if it’s a relationship that has been experienced as hurtful, they’re going to be suspicious of your attempts. So, I think the first thing to do is to acknowledge, you know, hey, I have been controlling inside of this relationship, or, you know, I know I’ve been really reactive and hurtful, or, you know, in, I’ve been a little bit desperate, or whatever it is for you. Right in your relationship, I think the first thing to do is clean up anything that exists between you and own, you’re part of it. Right? I think that’s the very first thing to do. Because it lets your teenager know that you are here to be real with them, and you’re not afraid to own your own mistakes. And then from that place, just letting them know, like, I really, it’s important to me that we have a relationship, and I want to be someone that you can trust, and that you feel like you can talk to. And so, I’m going to I’m really working on doing things differently as your parent. And that’s it. Right, just start there and then maybe even turn and burn. I mean, you know, don’t say that expecting them to say, Oh, thank you so much. I’m so glad that you’ve come in and said this to me. They might roll their eyes at you. They might be sitting in that like yeah, we’ll see space. Or they might respond with a thank you. But I think that’s the very first thing to do is to own whatever you’ve brought already to the relationship and to let them know that You’re going to be doing things differently. And then if you are going to be doing things differently, do things differently. Right? Like, do it. Don’t keep showing up the same way, if it’s not helpful, and as you learn, right, and you mentioned the book. So, you know, start to recognize your patterns. That’s really like what you were talking about noticing when you start to feel that trigger activated. Right? When you start to feel that triggers activated, what does that feel like for you, because everybody has a different response.

For me, it’s heat that starts in my feet, and it kind of moves up my body. And it’s a tingling sensation, and it’s a tightness in my chest. And so, if I can pay attention enough, be present enough to notice the physical shifts that are happening in my body, then I can slow it down. Right, and that’s the three B’s which is breath, body balcony. So, it’s, for me, slowing it down, is connecting to my breath, feeling my feet on the floor, doing a body scan, especially connecting with the breath. So, when we are stimulated, our inhale is longer than our exhales. When we (I don’t have the science to back this), but I know that there is science to back this. But when we have a longer exhale than an inhale, it signals to our body that we are calm. And so like, even when I’m speaking, when I have a speaking gig, and I can feel my heart racing, I take a few breaths, and I make sure that my in breath is like a bead of two and my x and my outbreath is four, right? So that I’m signaling to my body, you’re good, you’re good, calm down. That that’s much easier to me than talking to my brain. Like Casey, don’t yell, or Casey don’t, you know, whatever, right? Like, my brain is like, No, fuck you, I’m pissed, I’m gonna know, right, but my body, if I can calm my body, then I can have it better headspace to be like really in choice around how I want to respond. So, the three B’s are really helpful with that in the moment kind of thing. So, we’ve got to be, we’ve just got to learn ourselves. Right? We have to learn our we have to get be ever better students on ourselves. Because once we really start to understand the whys that we behave in a certain way, then we can get better at being in response to our kid. Yeah. So those are the two things that cleaning up our messes and getting to know ourselves better, I think the places to start.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:07:49

That’s great. And I think that, you know, just a lot of things you’ve said, can help one that it’s triggering something in yourself. So, looking at yourself, rather than starting with what your kid needs to do or doesn’t need to do. And also sort of being aware about what teens and tweens are going through, you know, when you talk about the physical changes, the emotional changes their priorities, because it is a big relationship shift. And, you know, especially if you’ve got a really close relationship with your little kids, it’s hard emotionally for you it does feel like you’re being rejected, or Yeah, mistreated or disrespected.

1:08:34

Right, right. And I just want to say caveat to none of this means that you just have to take it right it doesn’t know that please don’t hear me saying like, you know, they’re gonna make bad choices and they’re gonna be assholes to you and you just need to look inside and figure out what’s going on for you like, there are important conversations and limits and guardrails to set up. Not in the heat of the moment, right in relationship, in collaboration human, to human right and it’s a lot there’s a lot there. It’s more than just an hour and a half long podcast, whoever but I do want to make sure because sometimes people hear positive discipline, and they think it’s not healthy to just focus on you like you do have a job and responsibility for this person that you’re someone you’ve been given charge of. And heavy hand isn’t necessarily like there’s it’s just a balance. It’s a balance.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:09:33

Yeah, yeah. Well, so I know we can’t go into all the advice, all the tools, all the coaching. So, if people want to learn more, where’s the best place?

1:09:44

Well, you can head over to Sproutable. I’m the adolescent lead at spreadable which is a Seattle company, and we support parents with kids from zero all the way through adolescence. I’ve just merged My company with them. So, you go to be spreadable.com, you can click on the teens, you know, teens in the toolbar or early years if your kids are younger and find out what we’ve got going on there. It’s all positive discipline, brain science based.

And the other place you can go is I have a podcast that I put out. And since you’re listening to this podcast, my guess is you’re open to listening to another one. Um, it’s called Joyful Courage. And I really do focus on the teen years, I do interviews as well as solo shows, and I’ve started to do some more live coaching episodes where I have clients come on and share about a struggle that they’re having with their team. It’s super raw, really real. My daughter’s been on Episode 252, if you want to hear Rollins story, and we talk about DBT on that episode, as well, that that’s a place I talk lots about tools and, and have amazing guests, as well as kind of riff on my own thoughts about Yeah, all sorts of things having to do with parenting teens and tweens.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:11:10

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I thought this was a great conversation.

1:11:15

Yeah. Thank you. Great to be here.

Thanks, everyone.

So thank you for coming on here. I couldn’t appreciate it more.