Is Your Loved One Struggling With Alcohol? What To Do Instead of “Detach With Love” with Lisa Katona Smith

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking, drinking, alcohol, you, your husband, his mother, loved one, boundaries, struggling, staying sober, people-pleasing, sobriety, women, detach with love, compassionate, connection-first approach, supporting loved ones, alcohol use disorder, without losing yourself, sustainability, sustainable, feelings, experiences, not personal, connected relationships, family-centered approach, Parallel Recovery, family wellness, family trauma, depression, social anxiety, confidence, abandonment, conversation, extended family, partners, wife, spouse, couples, mom, dad, relationships, nervous-system care, and collaborative problem-solving, family systems, strategies, treatment, therapy, values, identify what matters to you, boundary, sobriety support group, program, recovery, take the step, happier, healthier, getting help, getting more education, healthy, unhealthy, marriage, talk about it, find your support, resources, podcasts, listen to podcasts, substance use disorders, know that you are not alone, detox, stressors, family, work, kids, care, level of care, stabilize, withdrawal, stable, emotional, behavioral, cognitive differences, change, motivation, will, willingness, partner, loved one, agency, power, communicate, wine, professional, provider, manage, needs, treated, so important in early recovery, self-esteem, work on mental health, best gift to ourselves, meaningful conversation, benefits, sober coach, therapist, distress, anxiety, stress, women’s group, a cognitive behavioral therapy group, goal, assessment, safe space, residential, medication, not drink, alcohol-free, curiosity, compassion, connection, collaboration, peer support, family systems, healing, recovery, coaches, triggers, drive women to drink, numb out, escape, family wounds, problems in relationships, problems at work, problems that affect women, causing discomfort in their life, physiological changes, hormone shifts with perimenopause, creating an environment where people have support, they feel heard, they feel respected, they feel understood, emotional support, physical support, live, sleep safely, journaling, reflecting, bonding connection, my own identity, Psychoeducation 101, How to deal with resentment, Curiosity scripts, holiday/wedding playbooks, grief, grieving

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Lisa Katona Smith

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a buzz, how to sit with your emotions when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hey there.

Welcome back to the Hello Someday podcast. If you’ve ever felt the ripple effects of alcohol in your family, how one person’s alcohol use disorder impacts the entire family system, emotionally, and psychologically. You’re going to want to listen to this episode.

 

It might be through your drinking, or your parents or your kids, or the way it shaped your relationship, but drinking impacts everyone within a family.

 

My guest today is Lisa Katona Smith. She’s the founder of Parallel Recovery and the author of the book, Parallel Recovery, A Guide for those Who Love Someone Struggling with Substance Use Disorder.

 

[00:02:00]

She’s also a TEDx speaker, a certified peer recovery specialist, and a master level educator who blends professional insight with her own lived experience of navigating a loved one’s addiction.

Lisa created parallel recovery because she saw how often families were told to sit back, wait, or detach, and how damaging that advice could be. Instead, she offers a structured, compassionate framework that helps family heal alongside their loved ones.

So Lisa, welcome.

I’m so glad you’re here. Thank you for having me.

 

Yeah, I’m excited. And we were chatting just briefly before we jumped on the recording about how your approach is the opposite of the idea of detach. Let them hit bottom. Can you tell me a little bit about. How you came into this work and why you take that approach?

 

Yes, absolutely. So my oldest son has struggled with varying levels of mental health challenges and ultimately substance use disorder.

 

[00:03:00]

And over the course of that journey with him I found that we were not guided in any way that felt compassionate or effective. You know, here we were, I was a mother and I was trying to support my child and who was struggling and we were told that either we were a part of the problem or that we needed to step away from the problem, which ultimately attaches a problem as to a person as an identifier.

 

And I, that just did not, I knew my son as a human being, as a person, as a young man, as a kind, compassionate person, not as a problem. But his behaviors became a problem.

So, over the course of, learning how to, to try and love him better, I found that I needed sustainability because truly his substance use, his, use of drugs and alcohol were affecting the entire family.

 

[00:04:00]

And I still wanted to love him. So I had to create a system that both protected myself and my whole self, my whole wellbeing, eight dimensions, and taught me how to step back into the relationship. So, the foundation, if I paired it down to two words, the foundation of the work that I guide families through is sustainability of.

Loving somebody who struggles with things and connection to a person who struggles with things. So sustainability of family members and connection to the person, because what we do know is it is more impactful and motivational to those struggling if connection is sought out and really fostered in effective ways, we know that, that everyone thrives better when connection occurs.

[00:05:00]

Mm-hmm. I’m curious, was your son living with you at this time or was he living independently? Both. And obviously, he was young, so when his struggles started, he was an adolescent. He was in high school and he was living with us. And then over the course of several years we did create some boundaries where he was not living with us.

And in the course of that time, we actually were able to connect with him better because there was some separation and we could step into loving him in a really dark and difficult place.

And did you try some of the traditional approaches before you got to this sustainable connection sort of framework to work with him?

Yes, absolutely. I mean, we, we were desperate to do whatever was offered to us. And so, my son went through several treatment programs many actually, if we’re going to be honest. And all of those programs offered, Quote, unquote “family support”, whether it’s a family weekend or family therapy.

 

[00:06:00]

But it was really just scratching the surface and not asking the family to look at themselves and say, how have I participated in where we’re at today?

How did you wake up here? And what roles have you played in perpetuating kind of some of the patterns that have led us to, to continuing for this to be okay. And so, that was one approach. But all of those fingers pointed back at our son, which, you know, his behaviors were a problem.

They were a pretty big problem actually. However, there was a person underneath there that was trying to cover up mask, take care of underlying symptoms that weren’t a substance problem. They were other things. They were depression and social anxiety and confidence and abandonment. Senses of abandonment.

And we actually personally had some family trauma in our family

 

[00:07:00]

Where we were impacted by a wildfire, greatly impacted by a wildfire when he was at a very influential age. So, he had some trauma in his background. And then secondarily, the other lane of support that’s offered families is, and I’ll just go ahead and call it out.

‘Cause at this point I, I do, but is the Al-Anon approach which is the sort of partner program to the 12 step for, for those who are, trying to alter their use of substances. And there are some great things and that are offered to, to people. There’s common humanity. You walk into spaces and you are met with people who also are experiencing your experience. And that makes a big difference and that’s positive. But that program has not developed with what we know ss brains change? Well, as we learn more about the brain and how people learn, we, we need to adapt programs. And that program really has never adapted. So, the detach with love, I actually, I really dislike that phrase, detach with love.

 

[00:08:00]

I always say detachment isn’t love. If you want to love, you just need to learn how to love differently, love better. It’s not about detachment, it’s about loving me and you at the same time. Not detaching at all. Detaching is not connection. It’s the opposite of connection. And connection is key foundation for any human to thrive.

Yeah. You know what’s interesting? So I, I also, we chatted and I said I wanted to, when I, when I read your book, when we talked about having you on, I was interested in this subject from sort of two different perspectives. One, a lot of women who listen to this podcast also have other people in their lives who struggle with alcohol abuse or substance abuse.

So their partner may be their longtime drinking buddy and they may not want, you know, the woman listening to stop drinking. Or their mother or parent or someone else might struggle with drinking or substance abuse [00:09:00] or. Their children might as well. And there’s a lot involved with that for everyone of whether they’re hypocritical or whether they’re breaking a pattern or is it fair of them to ask someone they’ve been drinking with their whole lives to change their behavior now that they’ve changed their personal behavior.

Also from the other perspective, you know, I drank a bottle of wine at night. There was certainly. Impacts on my husband. My kids were pretty young, but my husband and the rest of my family are my friends. And I know there are a lot of women who have issues in their relationships due to their drinking.

And I thought it would also be interesting from the perspective of this is a new approach for your family to take. Yes. In interacting with you. And it’s not a really well known one, right? Yes. Like it’s typically, it’s like you need to change, be black or white. You are the problem, and you need to stop drinking [00:10:00] and get better.

But I know in working with women and you talked about this with your son, a lot of times, , you drink as a coping mechanism, right? You might be self-medicating for mental health issues. There also might be real challenges in your marriage, with your parents is your mother a narcissist whatever it is.

And yet, if you struggle with alcohol, everything’s your personal fault. Like you’re the problem in the relationship and it’s very easy to gaslight you or blame you or whatever it is. So. All that is to say, I’d love to chat with you from both sides, both from the person who is struggling with substance use disorder and trying to recover maybe what loved ones are doing that might not be helpful.

And also if they have a loved one who’s struggling with substance use disorder, what is a different approach than the one that a lot of people heard through Al-Anon or detached with love or they need to hit bottom. So can you talk about that [00:11:00] sort of from both perspectives or what’s your take on that dual approach?

Yes, absolutely. It’s really the same thing, just depending on who’s the person speaking. So, let’s talk first from, you know, you’ve made some lifestyle changes and alcohol’s no longer your best friend and you’re working to live your best self without alcohol as a part of it, and your partner or best friends or all the important people in your lives still do take part in alcohol.

And maybe, especially if we’re talking about a partner, like they could have been, your go-to drinking partner in the past. I think first is validate that you’ve made a decision and this works for them still, right? Like if, if that’s the case, especially if they’re resistant. So, hey, I’ve made these changes and I understand that you might not really want to make these changes or this might threaten.

What we do, our party [00:12:00] culture or our social network, this might feel like a threat to you. So validate that they’re having an experience that is impacted by your choices, even though those choices are really to benefit yourself. And then be curious you know, like honestly curious, not curious to, to navigate their decision making, but really curious, what’s coming up for you?

How do you feel like this might change our relationship? Or what are you afraid of most Really getting, getting underneath the surface of somebody’s anger or somebody’s avoidance of you if it’s a friend. I’ve noticed that you’re not wanting to hang out anymore on the weekends. Is has my LA stopping drinking, has that made an impact in your decision?

And how can I, show up for you or understand your perspective differently, and then just see what they say. You can never go wrong with the question. Tell me [00:13:00] more. So they may scratch the surface and truth be told, they may actually, this might threaten their own mindset.

Like they might have to be taking a look at their own relationship with alcohol use and they don’t like that. And you can. Possibly in, in your initial curious question, get a feel for that. Like, you know, it just feels like we’re no longer connected or we no longer have anything in common. And you could say, well wait, tell me more about that.

And then all of a sudden you realize that maybe your whole relationship was based on drinking, or they realize that your whole relationship wasn’t based on drinking. And that there’s a whole lot more to the relationship that you can point out and say, you know what, Hey look, I don’t want to be around people who have had more than two drinks.

At that point everyone’s just getting wasted and I’m not really comfortable with that at this point in my sobriety. However, leading up to it, I’m totally fine being around you if you are drinking wine or [00:14:00] whatever or not. You know, you’ve gotta just make those decisions. And in terms of a partner, I think it’s the same thing.

How do you think this changes our relationship? Or what are you afraid of changing? And then you can work together to be problem solving that like I can see that this does change some of our social dynamics with our friends. And I always try and not use the word, but, but use the word and yes, that’s a true statement and I am really taking care of this for myself and I’m not asking others to do this for them.

So I think from that lane, that’s a really good place to start. And then from the family side, so if you’ve got somebody who you are noticing is, maybe not having the healthiest relationship with substance use. One of the phrases that I guide families to say all the time, especially when their loved one is making changes in their life and the holidays are approaching and people are already talking about it.

So this is the sentence, [00:15:00] how can I support you best for you to be a part of this event? So for families to be able to acknowledge that somebody is making some changes and that maybe the grander family system or social system hasn’t made those changes or isn’t. Wanting to, or, or even looking at themselves that way yet is to ask the person who has made those changes, how can I support you so that you can be, you can feel comfortable, you can feel welcome, you can feel successful in this event, whether it’s Thanksgiving or the wedding, or a social event.

So for example I would say, if you are the person who has made some impactful changes in your drinking and your partner is confused as to how to support you best, they may not have this language, but you can teach them. This language, you can say, this is what would support me best at this wedding.

It’s going to be hard. Weddings are hard and can we have a signal or a word or [00:16:00] a high sign that I am starting to have a hard time and I’m not really wanting to cross that threshold, and will you agree to be my wing person so that we can either step out and take a walk or maybe we leave the event early and you can help me with the reason why.

And it’s not about drinking. It’s just, Hey, we’ve gotta get back to the kids, or, it’s been a long night and we’ve gotta early morning tomorrow. Thanks for this. Congratulations so much and we’re on our way. Brene Brown actually has spoken about that she herself is in recovery many, many years and she talks about with her husband.

That they’ve had sort of the a look when she passes them and gives them the look, it’s now time to go because alcohol has become too much the focus of this event and I’m no longer safe here. Yeah, I think that’s fantastic. And, when I work with women, I actually created a partner guide so that they can give it to their loved ones to make it [00:17:00] not a huge deal, like, but like, Hey, your person has decided to take a break from alcohol for 100 days.

Here’s how to think about it. Here’s what you can do to help here. Including all those like FAQs, like, does this mean you need to stop drinking? Or, and, and in for them, I’m like, okay. The answer is no. And you know, they. It would be extremely helpful if you remove all alcohol from the home for at least 30 days.

60 days would be better. Yeah, it would be great if you supported them and not going to events with a huge drinking, component of it. It would be helpful if you think of different date nights than going to, for me, an Italian restaurant because I was a huge red wine drinker or a brewery and, I didn’t have this for my husband when I stopped drinking.

And if I’m being honest, I might not have given it to him, but it [00:18:00] would’ve given me some of the same language that. You are talking about. I didn’t want my husband at the time to know how difficult this was for me. And I was lucky enough to have a coach and a group and a stop drinking, program with other women in it like I have now.

But I did say to him like whenever he was like, Hey, let’s do X, which was like a huge drinking event, which of course I used to spearhead and that was my jam. I’d be like, oh, I’m still doing the no drinking challenge. Could we do a coffee shop? Or could we go to a movie or could we do X, Y, Z? Which was helpful.

Or he would suggest something else and I would be like. Actually, how about we didn’t go out to dinner for 40 days when I stopped drinking? We would get takeout. I think we did go out to dinner, but I picked like the burger place with milkshakes that we took our kids. And so. He didn’t totally understand that, but I had other people to talk to about it.

Like the first time I went out to dinner with him and [00:19:00] another couple, I like freaked out on my coach and was like, oh my God, what am I going to do when the person comes to the table? What is your friend’s wife going to think of me? And all that kind of stuff. But I do think it’s incredibly, I important.

Like even after I was passed a hundred days, we went to his school big auction event and I was like, Hey. I am not going to drink. I don’t want to drink, but this is going to be really hard for me so can you support me? Same thing. And he would get me the non-alcoholic beverages. He would, so I didn’t have to go up to the bar.

He would keep bringing them to me, he would tell me he was proud of me. Mm-hmm. All that kind of stuff, which was incredibly helpful. And a lot of women have spouses who drink a lot. And like you said, they have their own fear, right? They might be afraid that it’ll impact their own drinking.

They might resent that they can’t do the things they always did. A lot of times [00:20:00] they’ve even even said like, I feel like you’re judging me. I feel like you’re outgrowing me. I feel like you’re ghosting me to some extent when they try to like, protect themselves and go to bed early or not go to events with them.

So. I, I want the partners to ask that question about , how can I support you? Versus being like, oh my God, you’re not going to my brother’s place for Thanksgiving. They’re going to be so insulted and, like, this is your problem. Get over it. Right? As opposed to, I mean,, a more invitational approach is it’s really important to me to show up for my family.

And you know, like asking the partner to understand that just because you are sober now doesn’t mean that I can’t be around my family and this is tricky. I’m sure they understand that. And then how can we make this the best for you and still allow me to be able to check the box and show up for the fam.

I think [00:21:00] the word resentment is really, is really big. So resentment is unspoken expectations. And I would say really going deeper than just, and I think this goes both ways, but it has to start with somebody. So I’m going to maybe say that it’s starting with whoever’s listening to this unfortunately is, you know, you’ve gotta go below just, I don’t want to drink and ’cause that’s arguable.

For somebody else, especially somebody who maybe feels threatened in this situation. Why don’t you want to drink? But this is, we have fun. Like all of a sudden, you’re being gaslit into thinking that you’re not, you don’t know what you, what you need. Instead of just saying that I would go below and say, I am looking to live a healthier lifestyle.

I always use the term training to be 80. I’m training to be 80. And what I know is I’m at a, I’m at the age where wine, no longer agrees with me. I can’t sleep and I can’t do the [00:22:00] other things that are important to me when I can’t sleep. Whatever your reasons are, I notice that I really was obsessing way more than I think I should be about something that is not important actually in my life.

So, those are the things that your partner needs to hear because those aren’t arguable. So if you say, I loved how you said, you know, what I need is for you to go to the bar and replace my drinks, and I always need to have something in my hand. So I feel like I’m a part of the culture of what’s happening, and then I can socialize freely.

That’s an ask that someone can actually be successful at and want. They love you. They want to be a part of your process of health and wellness. So, I think that’s really important. And yes, just this is how you can support me best. There was one other thing that came to my mind which is, and this is on the family side of things, [00:23:00] but I always guide families to ask the question, how can I bring up if I start noticing you struggling or.

Doing something other than what you’re telling me you want to do. Right? So as opposed to partners, ’cause I’m sure some of them go into the micromanaging role, like, okay, you can’t have one glass of wine because you said you didn’t want to have any glasses of wine. You know, trying to be a part of you empowering your own solution as opposed to being the micromanager of what you’re saying.

You want your solution to be part of the process of somebody, being sober, curious, and really understanding what is going to work for me and what isn’t going to work for me. And Casey, I’ve heard you talk about this as well with your own journey is. Sometimes it takes several attempts at harm reduction or like a hundred, yeah.

Sober curiosity in order to go, oh [00:24:00] no, it’s sobriety. Or not drinking period. That actually has to be it for me, and for some people it doesn’t have to be that way. So, really being able to have a partner that supports that exploration. But I think what’s important is that they’re not the manager of your exploration.

They’re the supporter of your exploration. So again, unfortunately the people listening to this podcast are probably the ones that need to instigate this. But being able to say, here’s what I’m needing. I’m not sure yet where I’m at in this journey, but I am understanding that the amount that I’m drinking is no longer sustainable or healthy or the way I want to live long term.

So what I need is, if you start noticing that I am. Hiding, drinking daily whatever the patterns of concern are for you, would you point it out to me in a way that’s curious, not finger pointing. And and if there’s [00:25:00] family members listening, that’s the best way to do it.

And I think asking the person, if we see you, you know, we hear you, we want to support you. This is really important. We love you this much. We want to support you. If we start seeing some things, because you’ve said this before some things that look alternate to what you’re saying, how would you like us to bring it up?

What’s the best way to approach this? So then all of a sudden we have a pinpoint to come back to this conversation. Do you remember when you said that the best way to bring this up is to just say it out loud? Here’s what I’ve noticed. Yeah, no, that, it’s great to have that conversation and I know I’ve actually had my husband on this podcast and we talked about

his perspective on when I was drinking and how that impacted our relationship and our parenting and all that kind of stuff. When I stopped drinking, which he did not really want me to stop drinking, right? He never told me, Hey, I want you to stop drinking. .

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®.

 

The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

 

 

[00:26:00]

He, of course, just wanted, originally what I wanted, which is, you know, in theory like, have two glasses of wine.

Don’t pass out on the couch. Like, I want you to be able to go out with, me to go to dinner with our friends, but I don’t want you to drink every day. Which he didn’t totally understand that God, I had been trying to do that for a decade and it had not worked. But at the same time.

I never told him how much I struggled with alcohol because I wasn’t sure I wanted to stop, and I didn’t want him to be watching me or judging me forever. So I really downplayed how much I was struggling with it. And also he told me like, I’m not your parent. I, I don’t want that relationship with you.

I didn’t feel like, you know, you were super defensive every time I brought it up. So I think he was like, I learned pretty early not to touch that bear, like, you know? Right. Just to be like, huh, I guess she is falling asleep, quote unquote, on the couch again. You know?

 

[00:27:00]

 

And so, I think it’s like, if women are listening to this, sometimes your drinking is the elephant in the room, meaning I knew it was always in mine and in order to be successful.

You do, it’s really helpful to talk to your partner and you don’t have to be like, I’m going to stop drinking forever. Like you said, just being like, I need to not drink for this period of time. Will you support me with it? Like what? I, and our partners are so confused. I mean, I had tried to take a break from drink, so I’d be like, I’m not drinking.

Get me a bottle of wine. I’m not drinking. Get me a bottle of wine. Yeah. And so I told him again , Hey, I’m doing a hundred days without Alcohol health kick. Even if I ask you to bring me a bottle of wine, please don’t please remind me that I want to do this. Because he’s like, I’m not your dad.

If you’re, I’m at the grocery store and you’re like, Hey, pick me up some wine, even though you told me you’re not drinking for the [00:28:00] thousandth time. What you want me to say no to you? ’cause that’s, you know, and so I think I, having that conversation, even if your partner is confused, it’s really important, and then having other people who get it to talk to, to be that person, to reinforce and give you compassion and understand what you need and how hard it is.

Mm-hmm. I think you’re touching on, the need for there to be some basic psychoeducation for everybody. I mean, whether you’re just thinking, man, , I’ve kind of been on this daily drinking kick for some time now, and it’s no longer suiting my lifestyle., I maybe have grown out of that.

Or, you really do truly have what could be diagnosed as a substance use disorder. There’s stigma involved both for the person making those choices and their partner and their family. I mean, I’m sure [00:29:00] there’s, you know, why isn’t your wife drinking? You know, is she an alcoholic? Like, there’s rumor and there’s just side conversations and assumptions and stigma involved with that, that it looks a certain way.

So, some basic levels of psychoeducation, first of all is, starting in 2018, the DSM five, the diagnostic manual for disordered behavior changed. Addiction from addiction or not addiction to mild, moderate, severe,

but it really, provides the opportunity to, it’s just like having pre-diabetes, like yeah, right. Like, that’s, hold on a second. Do I need, I might need to make some lifestyle changes and. Some of that also has to do, maybe you eat just as much sugar as everybody else, but your body makeup, your brain makeup, your predisposition, your epigenetics, your genetic history, not genetic markers.

’cause there [00:30:00] isn’t an identified marker yet. But your genetic history, your epigenetic history might put you at risk of sort of poking that disordered behavior a little bit more strong than somebody else. So, some psychoeducation around, I know that, you drink less than me, or I drink more, you drink more than me.

And I’m the one saying I need to cut back. However, it is not working for my life anymore. I am finding myself obsessing over this way more than you think about this. And that to me is concerning. And those are things that people can really get behind. It doesn’t have to be labeled anything or called anything.

I myself have made my own choices to be sober for my own personal health reasons. Not because I had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. Alcohol created an unhealthy [00:31:00] relationship in my relationships. And my work, you know, people who I love and that’s definitely one decision.

But I, simply go to functions and say, oh, I’m good. I’ve got this, I’ve got a seltzer. I don’t drink alcohol. Sometimes I say that, sometimes I don’t say that ’cause I don’t really want to open up a conversation. So, just a little bit of education that it doesn’t have to be a disorder to make a choice.

Yeah. For a better life. And your partner, nor you, nor your parents, have to, identify as that. I know that there’s many holiday traditions, religious cultural traditions that revolve around alcohol and that feels really difficult to step into. Just really easily finding a solution for yourself and taking the problem off of somebody else yeah, can be a super simple solution.

And I also think like your loved ones don’t have to understand it to [00:32:00] support you and your friends. I always make the analogy to like, what if you decided to be a vegetarian? You’ve always eaten meat and then something at one point you’re like making this health and lifestyle choice. And by the way, I’m not a vegetarian.

But if my best friend told me, Hey, I’ve decided to not eat meat anymore. Would I really dig really deep into that unless I was curious also about not eating meat. Would I be like, why? Come on, just have one. Why don’t you take a. Bite at my burger. It’s so good. I would kind of be a shitty person.

Yeah. To do that to ’em. Like why do I care that, we go to a restaurant and they order the cheese tor and I order a steak. Like, why am I personally invested in them eating meat and like. Your decision not to drink can be as simple as that. Just to be like, I’ve decided that I don’t want to drink anymore because I’ve [00:33:00] heard it’s linked to cancer and I sleep terribly.

And it spikes anxiety. And if people are like, why? Why? You know, why don’t you just have a drink? Come on. You can have a drink and still go to the gym in the morning. Like part of me is like, you can turn to them at some point and be like, why does it matter to you what liquid I have in my glass?

Yeah. And that’s always a response to they’re threatened. Like, yeah, absolutely. There, there’s something secret going on in their head with needing justification. I have a phrase that I use all the time, which is thanks for understanding when it’s like I, we’ve had a little bit of this conversation and it.

It’s not feeling supportive of my choices and I’m needing to share more than I’m comfortable with. And so I just say, this is just a decision that I’ve made. Thanks for understanding. Love that. I mean, just done that. We’re done with that because then they’re like, oh shit. You know, whatever. Yeah, like I said, they’re kind of a shitty person if they don’t, [00:34:00] not that your loved ones are shitty person, but they should be like a little bit like, yikes, why am I pressuring this person?

Right, right. And hopefully that’s not your partner. Yeah. But sometimes it is a, you know, the women I talk to sometimes. It definitely is. They want you to drink, they don’t want you to stop. They’re worried it’s going to impact them. They’re worried like, how are we going to go out with our friends? Or are we ever going to have sex again?

Or, whatever it is. It’s very simply help me understand what your worry is, what you’re afraid of here, because that’s what that is. Yeah, that’s great. There’s somethings they’re nervous about and they could also have a problem themselves and they’re really threatened by that.

And they’re having some conversations in their head, but they could really be afraid. You know, I am afraid that we aren’t, we, if this isn’t a part of it, this is how we met and this is, has been, this has been us, what we do together. Yeah. Yeah. And then being able to [00:35:00] say, well, I’m not afraid that this is us.

I’ll tell you that. So could you trust the process? Inviting them into, you don’t have to do anything different. And I still love you. Yeah, that’s great. Right, because you have all these assumptions. I know my husband was supportive, but he didn’t want me to stop drinking completely. You know, when we went to Italy at four months, he was like, you’re seriously not going to drink in Italy, like on our vacation.

’cause we had gone to Italy before and I just was like, I was already four months sober and I had support, even though I’d never really talked to him about it. And I’m like, Nope, I’m not drinking. And then threw in like, babe, our family wanted no part of the road. I was going down. Mm-hmm. And he was like, oh, you know, but that was too subtle, I think for some.

Some people I did want to flip it. Okay. ’cause I know a lot of women who have done the really, really hard work of [00:36:00] stopping drinking, getting a period of time without alcohol. And their partner, I’m just going to start with their partner. ‘Cause typically you, this is the person you live with and the most difficult or closest relationship, their partner tries to undermine them, won’t get the alcohol out of the house, and struggles with alcohol.

And they are, you know, it’s true. Like when you stop drinking, you’re like, you know what? It’s not really attractive to me that you’re drunk instead of helping me or, I don’t want to go sit at a bar with you for four hours and I made the change.

Why don’t you make the change? Mm-hmm. And so, I know you have this experience, right? Because your son struggled with substance use disorder. You talk about how you realized that you were really trying to control him micromanage him or get him to stop, which, I mean, if my kids struggled [00:37:00] with substance use disorder, I’d be like, Nope, you can’t have any, you know, but say someone is living with a spouse who is struggling with it and they really see the issue and want them to stop, how should they handle it? Yeah. So step one is don’t talk about the solving behavior, the substance use, which seems like contrary because we see the problem, right? Like we see that the problem is stop doing that, and we, and you’re the person who is doing really well.

However. We come home and go, man, it’s been a long day. I need to have a drink to unwind. We know that substances solve a problem. So that’s the talking point. Hey, I am noticing you really feeling stressed out at work and I’m curious what’s going on. And you don’t have to use the word curious, but I stuck that in there on purpose because you really do need to be curious, not curious about would you stop doing that [00:38:00] thing?

That’s really upsetting me and also creating havoc in your life. But what is going on that you need a solution for, that you’re solutioning in a way that is ultimately harming you and us as a relationship. So that’s the talking point. I am noticing this, what’s going on. So even if you’re really pissed, because in your relationship you get really annoyed, right?

Maybe you have kids, you’re like, dude, you’re not pulling your fucking weight and you’re, I’m pissed about it. But even if they come home, they start drinking, they didn’t start dinner even though you picked up the kids and you did X, Y, Z and whatever. You should be like, Hey, I noticed that.

You apparently need time after work to like fucking sit around and have three beers. What is going on with that? You know what I mean obviously not the middle part, but like it does appear you need to check out after work. Yeah. Not in the moment. Not in the moment. Never. Never, never, never, [00:39:00] never in the moment is it best to bring up the problem, right?

So they come home, or you come home from dinner late having picked up the kids at 14 different activities, the expectation was that, he ordered pizza or started spaghetti and instead he’s taking a nap because, he had a cup of cocktails. Not the time to bring up the problem, right?

Like order pizza, solution your dinner, deal with your own resentment, and then the next day refer back to the event. Hey hun. Last night when I came home with the kids, I was upset because you had promised to make dinner. One that wasn’t done. So I, I had another job to do. And secondarily, you were kind of checked out from the family and that was really upsetting what’s been going on, because I’ve noticed this pattern the last three Fridays.

Yeah. Yeah. So it’s, it’s not in the moment. And then [00:40:00] secondarily, Casey is really learning how, because you might have a very resistant person. I mean, honestly, this person might have a legitimate problem with a substance, right? Yeah. And it’s not just a matter of, oh, but I want to have a beer like it, it really might actually be a problem at this point.

So setting a boundary of, hey, the kids and I are going to go out to dinner ’cause I’m not really comfortable being around you after you’ve been drinking. So that is talking about the problem, but it’s identifying that we love you and it’s hard to do that when you’re drinking. So we are going to go out to dinner to solution our hunger and maybe tomorrow we can go for a walk and talk about it.

So you’re letting them know, here’s how I can engage with you, not when you’re drinking. I’m going to set a boundary around the behavior that is uncomfortable for me and them. And also is like, you can’t reason with someone who’s already started drinking that you just can’t. [00:41:00] Yeah. Yeah. I know. And having been that person, that’s my husband being like, I didn’t want to poke that bear.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Like just like. Dude, you were pretty defensive. And, and I was like, what the hell?, I worked all day, I did all this like, so defensive and I want to drink, you know, whatever. Mm-hmm. Well, and what, what that is psychoeducation. I, and I always talk to people, families, that there’s a third party in this relationship when there’s disordered or unhealthy relationships with substances.

There’s a third person. There’s, both partners and then there’s the alcohol or the substance of choice. And so when the substance is in effect, when someone’s already started drinking the conversation is threatening the party that’s being asked to be removed. And yeah, alcohol’s not happy with that.

They’re like, oh, no, no, no, no. We’re going to stay here. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s who you’re talking to. I totally get that. I totally get that. So. [00:42:00] Out of curiosity, what did you previously say to your son, and then what did you shift to? How did you make that shift? Yeah, I mean, what it came down to, and I mean, it’s a really vulnerable moment, but my son was really deep in a substance use disorder.

And, I had real fear that he was not going to make it. And and there was actually a moment where, he had left the house, he was living with us in active use. And I was like, he, he might not come back. And I had been, a controller and a screamer and a slammer and a, just everything.

Not anything of who I wanted to be as, a mom and I. We kind of locked eyes. And there was a moment where I said to myself, if he doesn’t come back, he’s taking that with him. His last experience of me is of being broken, being [00:43:00] disappointed, being resentful, being angry, being scared. All of the things.

He had his own stuff he was carrying and he was also carrying my stuff because I couldn’t handle it. So, that’s what it was like before. I talked about the behavior all the time. You just need to stop doing that. You just need to do it less. You just need to all the things. And when I shifted to was not talking about the behavior.

Hey, I love you and I can’t be around you when you’re doing this. So when you’re not or when you’re at a place where you can be conversational, I would love to hang out. And that was a slow road because we had a very fractured relationship. So it took a lot of effort and a lot of. Small, short segments of connection to prove to him that I could be safe and prove to myself that I could love him separate from his sobriety.

And I just had to do it very boundaried so it [00:44:00] wasn’t as close or as perfect as I wanted it to be, but it was connected and it wasn’t destructive, which is what it was prior to that shift in myself. So yeah, that, yeah. No, that’s super helpful. And I know a lot of women like have to put down or want to that boundary of like, dude, if you’ve been drinking, I don’t want to have sex.

Like, that’s not something that I want to do. So. Either another time of day or a di or like, Hey, if you want to have sex, don’t, you know, like, let’s do it then kind of thing. Yeah. And again, coming from a place of this is what I need to be connected to you and the desire is so the solution versus punitive versus like, yes.

Yeah. I you’re not getting sex if you’ve been drinking Yeah. Is very different than in order for me to, have intimacy with you. It close to you. Yeah. [00:45:00] This is what I need and by the way, I do want this. Yeah, yeah. I’m curious about if you’re the person who is struggling with someone else’s behavior, their drinking,

and you have written about how the entire family needs to recover and change the way they interact and not detach with love, but engage with connection or engage with love. How do you work through that on your own? How do you let go of that resentment or righteous indignation or fear. How do you even take a look and be like, shit, I’m part of the problem.

’cause that’s really hard. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. So the first place I start with is, who am I in this. Patterned relationship and who do I want to be in the relationship? So I, I say, who am I in the disorder and who do I want to be in the relationship? And that’s really hard [00:46:00] because people get very defensive.

I did, I didn’t cause this, we didn’t do anything wrong. I didn’t do anything wrong as a parent to, create the situation that my son solved with substance use. However, if I was quiet with myself, I participated, I didn’t set boundaries when I needed to, I pleaded and begged and got desperate and tried to offload my fear onto him.

And that’s not fair. So looking at yourself and saying, who do I want to be? I talk about values and I talk about shadow sides of values. So let me give you an example. I have a personal value of humor, which. You know, the, I wish I had a value of devotion, but I don’t, I have a value of humor. So my value of humor, the shadow side of it when it was feeling threatened when I was not okay in myself, is sarcasm.

And I would get sarcastic and [00:47:00] frankly mean I have a sharp tongue when I’m pretty sarcastic myself and I think I’m funny. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, and sometimes feel you on that. Yeah.. And it’s very cutting, right? Like, it’s just, well, if you wouldn’t have, , had so much to drink last night, maybe we would be having sex, just like.

Was that necessary? Is there a better way to actually engage with your person? So, it seems counterproductive to focus inward in order to connect outward, but it really is the ripple effect that you talk about, Casey, is you get hijacked in somebody else’s disordered relationship with substance use.

And we wake up somebody that we didn’t go to bed as, and it happens. I mean, it’s just like when you wake up. 20 years later after having a daily cocktail every single night and go, how did I get here? How did this happen? It’s the same exact thing. , You don’t realize it’s happening in the slow motion daily interactions.

But there has to [00:48:00] be, sort of a boomerang that, that makes you stop and say, Hey, wait a second, who am I showing up as and who do I want to be in this relationship? Do I want to be connective? Do I want to be inclusive? Do I want to be in humor with my person without being mean to them? How can I do that differently?

That’s the connection piece and detach with love. Model doesn’t ask you to go deeper into yourself. It just says, run away and protect yourself. And okay, that might need to happen, maybe not running, but step back and set some parameters around the behavior that is not helping you. It might be hurting you but ultimately you love this person.

That’s why it’s hard. Otherwise you would detach. If this was just a coworker, you would just stop engaging with them. But if it’s somebody that you love, that’s really hard to do. And when I hear family members say, well, I’m just done with them, I always say, well, but [00:49:00] are you, are you 15 years down the road done with them, with your child or with your mother or with your partner or your co-parent if you’re no longer together?

Right. Are you actually done with them or can you learn how to connect with them in safer ways? Yeah. And I can imagine when you were talking about. This being a behavior and there being stuff under it. If you were the person drinking and still struggling with that, there are reasons that you drink.

And, even taking the substance use out of the picture and having that conversation with them and being honest could really help. Like I know if I was talking to my husband and took the drinking off the table, I would say to him I feel overwhelmed and I’m super anxious and I’m struggling with my boss.

’cause I feel like her expectations are over the top and I’m scared to leave my [00:50:00] job because I feel like. The mortgage and the kids and what I’ve signed up for, and I’m frustrated when I get home and I feel like I have to do the second shift and I want to check out. Would that be the kind of conversation that you would have?

Yes, yes. Absolutely. And I really, really encourage people to go deeper than that. And, you know, this is a back and forth conversation, but I’m listening to what you’re saying, Casey, and I’m hearing that I don’t know who I am outside of these roles that are now making me feel like I’m drowning. Right? Like I, I’ve got the role of this career that I’m in and the expectations are really high, but also I don’t feel like it can step out because this is who I’ve created, this is who, this is a part of who I am.

Yeah. And I’m a mother and , I’ve got the social media. To keep up with and, am I the PTA president am I doing, bringing the cupcakes that, that, that are homemade not purchased and all the things, the birthday parties and all the stuff. And I also need to be the [00:51:00] perfect partner.

And there’s societal second shift demands on women and you know, so the back and forth. It’s not just, we’ll get another job. Like that’s not it. Another job isn’t the solution. Yeah. We’ve gotta stop talking about these outliers. Alcohol use, overwhelm. I’ve got three kids under four and that’s a lot.

Those are overwhelming things. I’ve got a career I need to keep up with. My husband travels and I’ve gotta make up all of the stuff when he’s out of town and then he gets home and he is tired and disconnected. Like all of those things are real stressors, but what’s underneath that is identity in those stressors.

And so being able to say, it sounds like we’ve got together a a family value system shift maybe that we need to get realigned with. What are the things, what if we started small and identified some of the things that are really important to us? Well, what’s really important to us is family time.

Okay. So do our kids need to be in four activities after [00:52:00] school? Yeah. But then they’ll miss out. Okay, so is this an identity problem or is this a family connection problem? Right? Like really getting underneath the outlying behaviors and starting to ask those hard questions. And I think a lot of young families are really starting to do that a lot better than I did.

When my family was young, it just felt like I had to do things the way they were scripted. And I’m seeing a lot of families kind of go, maybe we don’t need to do all of those things. I mean, it goes back to who have we become? Who have we become? Yeah. And who do we want to be?

And stop talking about those outliers. Maybe you do need a job change. Maybe your job is part of the problem, that maybe you need a job that doesn’t travel that might help you. But ultimately, is it a job or is it. That we’ve got values and priorities and focus in the wrong place externally in the wrong place.

Do we need to instead go inside out as opposed to [00:53:00] outside in? Yeah, that makes so much sense to me because I do remember my husband being like, you just need better boundaries at work. Or you just need to say X, or you should get a different job, or you should work for yourself. And it did like it was unhelpful, you know?

Yeah. ’cause of all the reasons. So I think you’re 100% right that even if we go deeper from, Hey, I you drink too much, or I just like to shut off my brain at the end of the night too. Not just, I’m stressed out because of my job, because then they practically try to solve it for you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What are the things that are missing in you?

The person? Yeah. Who were you before all of these outside stressors started? And let’s go back to that person. Yeah. Those are the questions, the deeper curious ones, and it is hard to get to that point. That’s not easy [00:54:00] to do, especially not only to understand what the deeper issues are, but also to have that conversation if you’ve been in patterns for a long time and your spouse, is annoyed with you and resentful and irritated and all that kind of stuff.

Tell me about your book Parallel Recovery. If someone picks up this book either because. They have a parent, a partner, a child who’s struggling with substance use disorder. You know, your subtitle on Parallel Recovery is a guide for those who love someone with a substance use disorder, or if they themselves struggle with it and they want to change the dynamic in your family because the whole family contributes to whatever it is.

What can they find in your book to help them understand or take next steps or start solving Yeah. For what is contributing? Yeah. So I really model my family support [00:55:00] structure around. What is effective treatment for someone who’s wanting to look at their relationship with substances?

And so I’ve got it broken down into categories. The first category I start with is an introduction of the concept, which for family members is truly a recovery process. Not just get my person better process. That’s not what this is. This is how do I sustain this journey, whether they change or don’t change, and how do I connect with somebody who.

Is difficult to connect with based on their current behaviors. So I start with something called hard, easy, or easy, hard, which is just, are you going to have the hard conversation now or the hard conversation later? But it is going to have to happen. And if you punt the hard down the road, are you really actually robbing yourself of the easy, if you have the hard conversation, like, Hey, this, it no longer works for me, for this to be a daily occurrence.

And can we have a conversation that’s bigger about what’s going [00:56:00] on? That’s hard. That’s hard to do. We don’t want to do that. So it starts with that. And then psychoeducation, like we talked about. What is a under understanding that substance use. Is a reliable solution for a problem. It solves a problem immediately and reliably, not sustainably, but immediately and reliably.

So, the psychoeducation around the sort of the chemical hook of substances. Then it goes into communication. How do I communicate with a person who is drinking? And then the last two sections are on grief and self-compassion.

And, there’s a level of grief that is deep when you’re talking about removing alcohol from your life.

 

[00:57:00]

Yeah. It, it’s connected to a lot of memories and connections and relationships and, we live in a culture that tells us in order to be friendly, you drink in order to be at a wedding, you drink in order to grieve, you drink in order to experience life effectively, you must add something else to it.

 

And so, there’s a grieving process. Also, there’s a grieving process when you start looking back and going, man, I wish I would’ve showed up differently. Or maybe I missed things in my kids’ lives or in my partner’s lives, or my family’s life or my own life because of alcohol. There’s a grieving process.

Families also have that they have to grieve what they thought. Was going to be a path that maybe isn’t.

And then, self-compassion is truly it makes sense that you would think about alcohol. It makes sense that I think about micromanaging and controlling and slamming doors and yelling and getting upset and resentful. It makes sense because I’m impacted. So self-compassion is really just looking at thought processes that don’t have to go to behaviors.

[00:58:00]

They might, but they don’t have to. And having compassion for the fact that you had that thought process. When someone stops drinking, they might be like, man, it’d be really nice to just swing by the liquor store and make margaritas tonight for Taco Tuesday.

How do you have Taco Tuesday without margaritas? And that thought, when you’ve made a commitment to your health and wellness to stop drinking. Could bring up a whole lot of judgment and it doesn’t need to. It makes sense that you thought that because in the past that’s how you had fun in the past.

 

That’s how you related to other people when you went on vacation. So, it makes sense that you’re also thinking about it. You don’t have to beat yourself up about it. You can just make a neutral different choice and families can do the same.

So, that’s the gist of parallel recovery is really the recovery process.

 

[00:59:00]

The structure of recovering from an unhealthy relationship with substances needs to be implemented in the family system as well. All of the structure, not just get them better structure. That’s not it. That’s awesome.

 

I think that’s incredibly helpful. And I think anyone who is going through trying to stop drinking. Anyone who has stopped drinking and is still living within that old dynamic of their relationships, or someone who knows someone who is in substance use disorder and is frustrated by either how that interaction is going or is frustrated by the behavior and doesn’t know what to do.

I think your book is incredibly helpful in giving them another option than the one we’ve always, been pushed on, which is detached with love or cut yourself off and to threaten control. Mm-hmm. Walk away, all those kinds of things.

 

[01:00:00]

So, thank you for bringing this to us. I think it’s incredibly helpful to have a different perspective and different tools.

How can people find you, find the book follow up?

Yeah, so my website is lisakatonasmith.com and my book’s on Amazon or you can order it off or you can get the link off of my book. And I’m most active on Instagram @parallelrecovery.

That’s awesome. Thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you.