Scared to Try Rehab? Real Talk On Inpatient, Outpatient, Detox, And Recovery Options For Women with Jana Wu

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking, rehab, scared, sobriety, real talk, inpatient, IP, outpatient, OP, detox, women, addiction treatment, family wellness, trauma informed care, American Society of Addiction Medicine, ASAM, treatment, therapy, sobriety support group, program, programming, recovery, take the step, happier, healthier, getting help, getting more education, not healthy for a marriage, talk about it, find your support, resources, podcasts, listen to podcasts, get more information about substance use disorders, know that you are not alone, detox, stressors, family, work, kids, care, level of care, stabilize, risk of relapse, acute intoxication, withdrawal potential, withdrawal, medical detox, seizure, stable, the biomedical conditions and complications, emotional, behavioral, cognitive differences, change, motivation, will, willingness, partner, loved one, wine, professional, provider, manage, needs, treated, so important in early recovery, to bolster that self-esteem, work on mental health, abstinence from substance, abstinence from phone, best gift to ourselves, meaningful conversation, benefits, sober coach, therapist, anxiety, integrative healing group, somatic healing techniques, integrate them into their life, individual therapy, women’s group, a cognitive behavioral therapy group, goal, assessment, safe space, residential, medication, not drink, peer support, medical support, family systems, healing, boundaries, recovery, coaches, problem drinking, problems in relationships, problems at work, problems that affect women, causing discomfort in their life, binge alcohol use disorder, physiological changes, hormone shifts with perimenopause, creating an environment where people have support, they feel heard, they feel respected, they feel understood, emotional support, physical support, live, sleep safely

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Jana Wu

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a buzz, how to sit with your emotions when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hey there.

Do you ever wonder what actually happens when someone decides to go into treatment for alcohol or substance use? Maybe you’ve thought, would I really need inpatient rehab, or could I do something outpatient while still managing work and kids and life?

And then, there’s the whole other world of medically assisted treatment in recovery programs and figuring out what approach would actually work best for you.

 

My guest today is Jana Wu. She’s the Director of Clinical Integration at Mountainside Treatment Center, and an expert with more than 20 years of experience in addiction treatment, family wellness, and trauma informed care.

 

[00:02:00]

Jana is also a mother in recovery and she believes deeply in multiple pathways to recovery and is recognized as an expert on several different substances and recovery approaches. I asked her here, because a lot of the women who listen to this program may wonder about inpatient and outpatient programs and what more support is available, but have a lot of fears or there are a lot of unknowns about what options are out there.

 

So, I asked Jana to break down the real differences between inpatient and outpatient treatment, how to know what’s right for you, what to expect from a modern, compassionate, and holistic recovery program.

 

And I’m really excited for you guys to learn more about this. Jana’s been featured in Bloomberg News and the Wall Street Journal, and she’s excited to help families and individuals heal.

So Jana, welcome. I’m really happy you’re here.

Thank you so much for having me, Casey. Thank you for the introduction, too. I’m glad to be here.

[00:03:00]

So, where should we start?

I think we should start at the beginning. Can you tell us and define what inpatient program is versus outpatient program versus medically assisted treatment? What are all the different pieces of that?

 

Absolutely! So, let’s start, I think starting at the beginning, residential treatment is a 24 hour structure where there’s a routine and it separates you from your daily stressors, your family, your work, and you receive several hours of therapy and programming a week. That’s inpatient. There’s also prior to that, for many people, a medical detoxification and then so we can have a medical detoxification, which there are some elements of treatment. You might be in some support groups, but it really is to help stabilize you medically so that you’re safe to actually do treatment.

 

So, when we look at what actually happens in that treatment, so residential treatment can be from 2 weeks to 90 days. You know, there are several long-term programs, so it depends what someone needs. Most treatment in America is guided by the American Society of Addiction Medicine, ASAM criteria.

 

[00:04:00]

So you’ll hear that a lot when you’re looking into treatment mountainside, where I work is certified by ASAM. So basically ASAM is a set of guidelines that tell you what type of level of care you need. So they determine sort of what accounts for residential detox. PHP, which is partial hospitalization program, IOP, which is intensive outpatient program or OP, which is what sometimes people term as regular outpatient or outpatient programming.

 

So, for example, if you were attending a weekly therapist and a weekly support group of any kind, a women’s support group, a sobriety support group that was clinically led, so different from AA, which is like mutual support that could be, would be considered outpatient treatment. So, someone might already be participating in outpatient if they’re seeing a weekly substance use disorder specialist or a mental health professional for a co-occurring disorder.

 

You know, co-occurring would be con occurring at the same time. And there are a lot of co-occurring disorders that sometimes happen with addiction, and we can talk a little bit more about those.

[00:05:00]

So, basically, again, going back to ASAM or the American Society of Medicine. There are certain criteria that determine where a clinician will look at the right criteria and help determine what is the best, most ethical level of care for you.

So, it’s a fine line because you want the best level of care and the least restrictive at the same time. But getting the best and least restrictive can take some further assessment to see what someone needs, not just physiologically from like a physical detox, but also psychologically, you know, what their risk for relapse will be if they stay at a level of care that is very least restrictive, like outpatient versus going somewhere where they are medically monitored and monitored and supported 24 hours a day.

 

So, I can talk about the, AA part is really interesting. I think actually when you look at the criteria that it takes to actually. Determine what is the right level of care.

[00:06:00]

So, there are 6 dimensions of ASAM, and the first one is acute intoxication or withdrawal potential. So, that’s really looking at someone evaluating their risk for withdrawal and their need for medication, man for a medically managed detox.

So, if we look at alcohol, which up to 80% of our women that we treat struggle with alcohol, there is often it needed a medical detox. If you are drinking every day for many days in a row or months in a row, that sometimes qualifies as a medical detox. If you’ve ever had the DTS or if you’ve ever had a seizure, if there’s medical concern, and sometimes people don’t know theirs.

There have the possibility of having a seizure until they have one. You know, ’cause they might have been drinking for years and saying, oh, well I’ve start and stopped so many times. If you’re mixing alcohol with benzodiazepines, that might require medical detox. If you’re using opiates, you know, certainly with the, the dangers of fentanyl, that could require med medical detox and opiate withdrawals.

 

Very, very uncomfortable. So anyways, we look at that first criteria, like is, are they stable enough to go to outpatient or do they need a medically supervised detox?

[00:07:00]

The second dimension we look at is the biomedical conditions and complications. So that’s like.

Do you have elevated liver enzymes? Like when we take, you know, your blood work, do you have, did you just get into a car accident?

You know, and maybe related drinking or have a drinking related fall that requires you to have a little more medical support. So, that dimension we’re looking at actually where, someone medically should be to work on their treatment.

Then our third dimension is emotional, behavioral, cognitive differences. So, could be, does this person we’re assessing have autism spectrum disorder that would, you know, determine what type of treatment might most be most effective for them? Do they have anxiety, depression, PTSD? Those are all things you want to look at. Then, we look at their readiness to change. How motivated, how intrinsically motivated are they to want to stop, to want to change, to want to do something different. Like, looking at that will, willingness.

 

[00:08:00]

And then, we look at relapse prevention, pro relapse problem, like potential. Like is there a potential that they’re not going to be able to maintain sobriety? If that’s our goal at that level of care, is it too unrestricted or is there too much opportunity? And then we look at number six, the six dimension, which is probably my favorite is recovery environment.

And that’s something I think you’re very good at, Casey. It’s creating an environment where people have support, they feel heard, they feel respected, they feel understood. So emotional support and then definitely the physical support. Do they have safe housing that they’re not, that they can actually live and sleep safely?

Do they have access to food? You know, do they have those things that will take for them to emotionally regulate and get the time to work on themselves? So that’s really important. Looking at that 6 dimension, that recovery and living environment. How safe is their living environment, and then how many supports do they actually have that can help them achieve this?

 

I have so many questions as you were talking through all the different factors and options.

[00:09:00]

The first one I wanted to hit on, because I say this to people when they’re asking about stopping drinking, but I am nowhere close to a medical expert. So, detoxing from alcohol can be incredibly dangerous. It can actually be fatal, correct?

Yes. It can be fatal. And I mean, I drank a bottle of wine at night, most nights of the week when I was trying to white knuckle it. I would go four days and then drink and four days and then drink. I personally you know, was very used to feeling hungover. I think only once in my life did I notice my hand was shaking when I was trying to put a mascara on.

But how do you determine or decide to be like, oh shit, this could be bad, or it’s just a hangover, I feel like garbage. I, you know, am sweating, I’m doing whatever, like, because a lot of people don’t know and also mm-hmm. Don’t see the signs of when they’re, when they’re in danger and don’t know where to go.

[00:10:00]

Say, you haven’t been assessed by a professional, you’re just like, alright, I’m ready to stop. So could you tell me that, and then also you said DTS, which I think are delirium, tremors.

Tremors. Mm-hmm. Tremors. Yeah. So let’s, let’s start with the first question ’cause it’s a really good one. I think especially for a lot of your audience, many people that have it all together, you know, the career, the family, your community role, roles are, are quietly struggling.

You know, there’s a lot of pressure to keep it all together. So, there might be signs and symptoms you’re missing. You know, that’s the first thing is we sometimes aren’t our best doctors or our best evaluators. Yeah. So I would say. This is very hard. I think for a lot of women, we’re used to maybe taking our kids to the doctor, making our husband’s dental appointments, you know, keep doing everything.

But for ourselves, being open and honest with our providers, talking to our primary care doctor, letting them know things like, Hey, I saw my hand shaking a little with my mascara. I’m throwing up every morning. I’m getting really sweaty, you know, and of course we know that could be perimenopause or different things, but noticing these things and speaking to a medical provider about them and being honest about our drinking.

[00:11:00]

Most people are, it sounds judgmental, but poor reporters of their eating, drinking, and spending, you know, determining, you know, guesstimating how many calories, guessing how much money we spent, and guessing how much we drank. So ,I would say the first thing is too, if you really want to assess. Self-assessment, really monitoring how much you’re actually drinking, really, really tracking that, documenting it, providing that to your medical provider and tracking your symptoms, I would say.

There are a lot of symptoms that can’t be seen on the surface. So, for example, elevated liver enzymes, you know, you need a, you need a blood test to see that. So, other things, even more subtle. We see so many people that come into our detox with very healthy BMI, you know, not that the BMI is a good indicator of anything, but my point is they look well said, well nourished, we take their blood work and they’re completely vitamin B and vitamin D deficient completely.

Yeah, you’re nodding your head. ’cause it happens so frequently to people, so we can’t sometimes tell what’s going on inside.

[00:12:00]

So ,my first recommendation is don’t try to diagnose yourself, seek medical help. And if it’s starting with your primary care doctor and telling them, you know, this is how much I drink and here’s some of what I’m seeing.

 

So, I think those are very important things we know and, you know, I know your listeners know from your podcast, many of the other, some symptoms that can tell us we’re drinking too much, are very subtle. I can’t sleep, I’m so anxious. The next morning I feel nauseous and can’t eat anything. Those are all precursors to potentially dependence on alcohol.

So yeah, not everyone needs a medical detox, but it’s important to be assessed by a medical provider to see if you do. There are other elements too, of course, like blood pressure we know can skyrocket when people, when people are really struggling, which is where it gets a bit dangerous too with the alcohol withdrawal because people can have not only seizures, but can have cardiac arrest, you know?

So we, it gets very serious. The other thing I do want to share is. I, I’m working with a lot of women.

[00:13:00]

I know it’s very difficult to go away, even for 5, 6 days for medical detox. We do offer, and you know, this is something that I see more and more what’s called ambulatory detox or outpatient withdrawal management.

And that’s, you know, you have to be medically approved for it, but that would be allowing you to be medically detoxed without going into a medical facility. So, working with a doctor several times a week, working with a therapist and providing, you know, test results and taking medication while at home to help calm the body, to be able to detox from the alcohol without going inpatient.

OK that is really, really helpful. And I was smiling when you were talking because you were saying that women or people in general

are really poor at tracking how much they eat or drink or spend. I would also say that I went to the doctor for years, including my therapist, my doctor, God knows who else, and would, you know, they ask you the question, right? Like, how much do you drink? And for years I would just put down like, oh, a couple drinks, couple times a week.

[00:14:00]

It was not that I was not aware that I was drinking a bottle plus of wine at night. It was that. Dear God, I wouldn’t put that down on paper. I don’t want my primary care provider to judge me. I certainly don’t want them to tell me I need to stop drinking and I don’t want it in my file. So the first time I ever added it up and was honest was after I stopped drinking the first time. I think I was like four months sober.

And for some reason I went in there and I was, they were like, how much do you drink? And I was like, zero. But then I was so proud of myself. I was like, but I used to have 30 to 40, drinks a week and went into the doctor. They were like, oh my God. And I was like, dude, did you see the zero? So like, I didn’t want it in my file.

I did an episode, I am going to link to it. It’s with a professional who works in primary care who talked about how to speak to your doctor in a way to get them to help you assess your risk.

[00:15:00]

Saying things you’re uncomfortable with, but, and I’ll link to that, but what are your thoughts on that?

Because like, yes, we want to have medical information ’cause we need to take care of our body. And alcohol withdrawal is super dangerous. Getting your blood work done is really important. And also what about if you don’t want to talk to your primary care provider or if you know, a lot of doctors are super judgy or they have no idea about this stuff other than you’re an alcoholic, you’re not an alcoholic, go to AA or you’re cool.

You know what I mean? Like, where’s that middle ground?

Yeah. It’s really interesting. I would’ve answered this question very differently about five years ago. You know, and maybe it’s the pandemic that we’ve gotten a little more comfortable asking for help, seeing sort of the epidemic of mental health. I would say.

If I were approached by someone with this question, I’d say, go see a substance use disorder specialist and have an assessment. You don’t have to see your doctor.

[00:16:00]

So it’s really important to understand that substance use disorder is not, treatment is not only covered by HIPAA for your privacy, but also CFR 42 part two, which is an added layer of protection over your substance use disorder, medical records and history, and also your financial records in relation to your substance use disorder.

You know, treatment investment. So just saying that, I’m just saying there’s added layers of protection and confidentiality because there’s still that is super helpful around substance use disorders. So I would say. Look up in your area, substance use disorder, treatment centers, maybe call and see is there someone there that does assessment?

Can I do an outpatient assessment? And then you get to speak to a provider that specializes in this. They’ve had training, again, going over that H exam criteria. They have training to assess you, to determine if you should see a medical provider. Often substance use treatment facilities, even outpatient like we do have nursing staff, have psychiatric APNs, our APRNs that specialize in substance use disorders.

[00:17:00]

And I’ve been specially trained to see our clients and we work sometimes with outside medical providers. But seeing someone where you can be honest, that is the most important thing without judgment. And I would say those would be people that specialize in this. Most people that work in substance use disorders love this work They do.

And I don’t have statistics on that, but I would just say based on my experience, it is a passion. To love this work and love the people that struggle. You know, you, you can’t stay in this field if you absolutely do not love people that struggle with it. ’cause you’re doing it all day long, you know, 40 hours a week plus.

And you have to love the work and believe in it, and believe that people have the potential to change and that people have the autonomy to determine how they want to change and when they’re willing to change with the right supports. So I think finding that environment where, you know, this is what they deal with all day.

You are not the unicorn coming into the room. They’ve seen the gamut. Yeah. You know, of the, the, the disease, if we want to call it, or if we want to see the gamut of use and they can determine, you know, what, what needs treatment and what doesn’t. I, I never think it’s a bad thing for anyone to look at and examine their relationship with substances.

[00:18:00]

Okay. I’m really glad I asked that question because that is very, very helpful and, I think that’s great. I love the idea of looking up in your area to find someone who specializes in this, to talk to someone who gets it, who isn’t, oh my God, you do what, who sees this every day? And who is able to actually give you a medical assessment that is both understanding and com compassionate and not alarmist.

So just say one more time, how, what would someone like Google if they wanted to find someone to give them this sort of outpatient assessment, what would they look for? I would go for going back to the A-S-A-M-A-A Certified Substance Use Disorder treatment. Looking for that. You know, if you’re looking for a treatment facility, if you’re looking in your community for an outpatient provider, you know, in New York they’re called K Sacs or Connecticut.

[00:19:00]

Like, I’m a licensed alcohol and drug counselor, so looking in your state for the licensed alcohol and drug counselor. So, we want that licensing so that we have that oversight, the overregulation, to make sure it’s ethical. Treatment. And so, you want to look, you know, and it’s unfortunately there’s no federal sort of licensed alcohol and drug counselor designation.

It is different state to state. So, looking in your state for a license provider that specializes it, or you could see, you know, a licensed psychiatric, you know, or an A PRM that specializes in substance use disorders, a licensed clinical social worker that specializes in substance use disorders.

But starting there for someone that specializes in this, I know I’ve heard a bit of your story in seeing, you know, a mental health provider that specialized both in alcohol use disorders and anxiety. And I think that’s a great place to start against someone that has familiarity with it. I think it’s also important because as you mentioned in my bio, I’m very passionate sometimes about some more fringe. Substances.

[00:20:00]

And I have a good knowledge of different fringe substances that are out there. And one thing that always strikes me is I get many clients that come to me and say, you know, I went to my primary care doctor and I told them, for example, I was struggling with, with crem or seven oh h and the doctor says, what, what is that?

Let me Google it. And that for you never want your doctor to have to Google it, but at the same time, we can’t expect our primary care doctors to know every fringe substance out there. So, I actually spoke recently at medical school about how we approach our clients, our patients with a stance of curiosity so they can share with us without them feeling like they have to educate us or feeling like further stigmatized.

Like, well, wow, if I’m struggling with this and my doctor doesn’t even know what it is, maybe. This isn’t really something people struggle with. You know, our mind starts to make all sorts of rationalizations about it. So medical providers, they’re not going to know every substance, but approaching their patients with curiosity is pretty essential.

[00:21:00]

I want to learn more, you know, acknowledging what we might not know and figuring out how they can then find the resources to help patients that come in with some of these concerns. That’s great. Super helpful. Okay, we touched on it briefly, but tell me about DT and what people should be aware of it, what they should look for, all that good stuff.

So, delirium, remin, so DTS, those can start usually between two and 4 days after someone stops drinking, but it typically is after heavy prolonged drinking. So some symptoms to look for are severe cognitive, you know, not being able to crawl words, agitation, disorientation, certainly hallucinations. Fever, sweating, really high blood pressure, dangerously high blood pressure dilated pupils rapid heart rate.

So you’re having a very physical response. So that, again, it’s scary because that happens sometimes when people stop drinking after heavy episodes of use and they think I might be in the clear, ’cause I haven’t drank for two days and I haven’t seen had any symptoms.

[00:22:00]

But we want to make sure if any of those things happen that you seek, like go into an er, call 911 right away.

Because they do require medical immediate care, you know, hospital or an ER to take, take care of yourself. So this, you know, could be benzodiazepines or alcohol. Sometimes also if someone has like a coexisting mental, like previous condition that would spike these things. So we want to make sure that people are really aware that this is something that they should seek immediate medical help for.

Yeah, super dangerous. It is. And I think one thing that’s interesting is I’ll often have people say to me, well, I’ve done this so many times, I withdrawn, I, I’ve like, detoxed at home, I’ve detoxed at home like four or five times and I’ve never had dts or I’ve never had a seizure. And I say, well, everyone’s had somewhere has their first seizure, you know?

Mm-hmm. So, there’s always a first, and I, I, prior to, or in between sometimes too, at mountainside.

[00:23:00]

I worked at the Denver VA hospital and I would work, I worked, you know, with veterans, a lot of guys really young, healthy, super fit. And they would still have seizures because it didn’t matter how fit they were to have a seizure, it was about the withdrawal.

Okay. That’s great to know. And I always want to, like, I always am slightly uncomfortable when women are talking about stopping drinking. I absolutely. Want women to stop drinking. But if you are worried at all about DTS or seizure or withdrawal, definitely talk to a doctor ’cause it can be very dangerous or get help.

We were chatting just before we jumped on about women in midlife and you know, I’m a Gen Xer, so Gen X, baby boomers, et cetera, that they are still drinking at very, very high levels. We always are talking about the decline in drinking like that. 54% of people now are the ones who are drinking.

[00:24:00]

It used to be like 70%, but older women, I don’t want to say older, but women in midlife and baby boomer women seem to have the highest increase in binge drinking.

Can you tell me a little bit about women that you see coming into your treatment programs and what they’re struggling with? Absolutely. Actually most of our women average about 40 to 42 years old. So I’m really proud of them for coming in because nationally still, when we look at rates and when we look at national statistics recent statistics, men are still at about like 63%.

You know, struggle with, could have like a diagnosable substance use disorder, where women, it’s like the 36, the 36%. So women typically have less rates of having a diagnosed substance use disorder, but still only 10% of those that are diagnosed with the substance use disorder actually get treatment for various different factors.

And I feel like for women it’s probably less than the 10%. So. What we see is we see, you know, we’re very fortunate in the women that we do see that make it through our doors and that, that get to come into our treatment.

[00:25:00]

And most of our women do. Right now, if we look at our stats from like 2025, it’s still about 80% struggling with alcohol.

I often see the binge alcohol use disorder. So, there are a few different things that are going on that you’ve spoken on some of your previous podcasts.

One, the physiological changes in the hormone shifts with perimenopause that women cannot digest alcohol the same way they used to in their 20s and 30s.

And the repercussions are often more severe, whether that’s getting more intoxicated, more easily, you know, drinking the same amount, but having more effects that later increased his, you know, anxiety maybe. Talking too much or sending texts they didn’t want, or overeating all those things. Our bodies can become more sensitive to alcohol or the opposite.

 

We can have built up a tolerance at that point in our life where it takes more alcohol to have the same effect.

[00:26:00]

So, what we are seeing in women in this Gen X Age, like the 40s, 50s, is more, again, like we’ve talked about, the more binge and also more of like, I would say problem drinking, you know, just pro problems in relationships, problems at work, problems that affect women where it’s causing discomfort in their life.

 

So, some of the binge in alcohol related harms, so that could be harms on their mental health harms, on their career harms, on their, you know, finances. All the things are starting to really pick up at that age. Yeah, absolutely. And I, I know that for some of the women that I know that going away for treatment is the best thing they could possibly do for themselves.

It is such a huge gift to be able to go away, concentrate on yourself, give yourself the gift of therapy and treatment and time to get away from the substance without the overwhelming pressures of work and life and children. And honestly, a lot of the social pressures of your friends or your spouse or the people in your lives or your colleagues encouraging you to drink.

[00:27:00]

That said, it is really scary for women to raise their hand and say, I want to go to treatment, because there is still that stigma Absolutely around, oh, you were quote unquote, so bad. You had to go to treatment. Or I don’t want everyone to know, so I can’t go away because it’s fine to do X, Y, or Z, but they will notice, or what am I going to tell my kids?

Or what about my spouse can they use it against me? So you see women every day who have come to treatment. You see women who are getting that support and integrating back into their lives. What, what are the biggest fears women have? What are the hardest things they have to cope with and what do they get out of being out of their home environment?

Well, I think there’s a few different things. If we look at women that, let’s say just take high achieving at work, we’ll, we’ll take the kids out for a second. It is very difficult for someone that has worked very hard to get to where they are in their career and say, I need to take time off from work to take care of myself.

[00:28:00]

You know, we look at the backlash that, like for example, Simon Simone Biles had, when she took time off, you know, from the Olympics, there’s this thought that we can, we need to keep going, going, going. And that there would be this backlash. They wouldn’t then get the promotions when they go back to work.

They would be thought less of. They’d be thought of as more anxious, less dependable. So, I think professionally, there’s a lot of pressure on women still to keep up and look like they have it all together and they’re scared to say, if I’m struggling, people’s perception of being will change and I won’t get that perception back as the woman that could do it all.

I think women with children, there’s an added level of pressure that I see a lot. I mean, I think one of the most common mantras I hear is. I don’t want this to affect my kids so that they’re the kids when no one comes to our house or they’re the kids that the, that parents won’t let them come over. You know that they’re going to be the like isolated and ostracized because of my problem.

[00:29:00]

You know, I think that’s one of the biggest fears for many parents is that their drinking will affect their children’s social standing. There’s some women too that fear. If I tell my family and kids, they’re going to be scared they have it. You know, so that’s sometimes a secondary fear, but I really think that first one of it’s going to affect my kids’ social standing.

You know, that they won’t be as accepted. They will be left out because of me, and that’s a really heavy weight to bear. You know, I think it still is more so societally acceptable for a husband to go to treatment and the wife take care of everything at home, maybe get some health and resources than the wife to go, and the kids, you know, the husband have to find help for kids.

And I recognize it’s a very heteronormative and very gender normative example I gave. But I think we see that a lot with high functioning women and high functioning either in the home or again in the community. That if they go, it’s going to have effect on their social standing and their ability you know, to, I think keep what they, what they have and what they’ve worked really, really hard for.

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®.

 

The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

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[00:30:00]

Yeah. Yeah. And I know that you know, it’s, it’s funny I related to some of the things you were saying because no one externally told me that I had a problem with drinking. No one told me I should stop, which meant that it was, it was pretty well hidden. I was the person who was more worried about it than anyone else.

But I was actually worried that if I stopped drinking, that I would suffer in my career, that people would be like. Oh, that’s fine. You don’t drink anymore. You must have had a problem. Therefore, X, Y, Z, like all these fears we have about what other people will think. And I have to say, looking back, it was ridiculous because I thought that if I stopped drinking, I wouldn’t get promoted.

And stopping drinking was the best thing I could have possibly done for my career, for my work life balance, for everything. But when you’re in deep, it’s hard to envision that.

 

[00:31:00]

I was like, yes, I was worried they wouldn’t promote me if I stopped drinking, but I was totally cool, like slurring my words at the holiday party.

Like, how is that? Or being hung over in the mornings. Well, that’s that liquid courage though. I think too, that a lot of, yeah, anyone, any gender uses, sometimes with alcohol, you know, it’s hard to feel in that moment, but people do feel emboldened and so if they’re feeling a little insecure, a little anxious at a work event.

They know, they can feel more confident with that. Even though we know the long term, they might end up having, oh my gosh, I said this to my boss, and feeling that regret and shame. But in the moment it’s like they want to feel that confidence and let go of that fear and insecurity that we all still have as adults.

Yeah. And you know what the other thing you said is about worrying about your kids’ social standings. And I, I just want to tell this story in case someone’s out there listening and worried that I don’t want to get help or I don’t want to get treatment, or whatever it is, because I don’t want my kids to think X or their parents to think Y.

[00:32:00]

So, I stopped drinking when my son was 8 and my daughter was 2. And at that time I was, you know. Basically, if I wasn’t white knuckling it, drinking a bottle of wine at night, sometimes more I would quote unquote fall asleep on the couch. And my husband couldn’t wake me up (had passed out).

I wasn’t remembering the end of shows. I was anxious and jittery and hungover pretty much every day. And I vividly remember standing at the bus stop with my 8-year-old son and my 2-year-old daughter waiting for the bus to pick up my son and talking to the other parents and trying to stand further away from them.

And thinking to myself, if any of them knew how much I drank, they wouldn’t want their kids to hang out with mine, which. Sucks and it’s ridiculous. ’cause in my mind I’m like, I didn’t do anything wrong. I’m still a great mom. But there was that fear underneath. So, I have to say, one of the reasons I stopped drinking, one of my big whys was I looked out 10 years in the future and my son was 8 and I said, when he’s 18, is he going to want to bring his friends home to at night?

[00:33:00]

Like knowing how drinking goes, knowing how the progression goes, if I was drinking this much and having these things happen when he was eight years old, look at a decade if I didn’t stop and I had the most like. Goosebump moment, which was crazy for me. It was my 50th birthday and in August and a couple days before, my son texted me and my husband and he was like, Hey mom, yada, yada, yada.

Is it cool if I have friends over Thursday night to play poker? And I was sitting there next to my husband, I was like, dude, he’s totally forgotten. It’s my birthday, right? Because we were going to go out to dinner and do the cake and everything, and my husband, we were just sitting next to each other, he texted back on the family story and was like, yeah, that’s cool, but it’s your mom’s birthday, so not before 9:00 PM.

[00:34:00]

And he was like, yeah, yeah, no worries. I will totally do it. After 9:00 PM here’s what’s amazing. It was my 50th birthday. Huge milestone birthday would have nor normally been 8. Giant drinking night, right? Yeah. We went out to dinner. We had cake, we did all the things. It was super social anyway, and my son had no worries at all about bringing 6 of his friends to our house at 9:00 PM. That, to me, like I was in tears when I realized that, when I looked back at what our relationship is like now.

So, if you are worried about the impact on your children, like take a little bit of pain now to take care of yourself and I, your relationship with them will be changed for the better for the rest of your life. That is beautiful. That really is beautiful. And that you get to be there and be present and not forget a moment of it.

You know why he sometimes he’s not embarrassed of, of me like that to me was like, he is not worried about anything I’m going to do to embarrass him.

[00:35:00]

Other than like giving him lots of kisses and calling him hanky. Hanky in front of his buddies. No, just kidding. I do that. But I think too, that speaks to another one that I hear a lot is people say, oh, I just want to be able to drink a glass of champagne at my daughter’s wedding.

And I’m like, how old’s your daughter? And they’ll be like, six. I’m like, okay, well we have a lot of time to get there, get there. But I love that idea of like, do you want to be the mother of the bride that people remember for what? You know, like, do you want to be that mom or do you want to be present? You know, I once heard someone say, why would I want to miss and not be present for the most important day of their lives?

I want to be there. And that was their motivation to get sober, even though they did have a young kid. And I thought that was beautiful. You know, wanting to be there, wanting to be there fully as you are. So there’s a lot of good gifts. I did want to share a little bit about the nuts and bolts of what residential looks like.

Yes, please. Just ’cause I think it can be feel, again, like a mystery.

[00:36:00]

So, Residential sometimes comes after a detox, like we talked about, a medical detox where you are working on getting your body to be able to do the treatment. So, that could be for alcohol, that actually could be taking some benzos, taking what we call comfort medications. Again, medically monitored. Doing some support groups though, getting some of that psychological support from professionals and some other people usually in the detox with you, you know, getting that support. No one waltz is into detox. Typically, it’s been the worst week of someone’s life. So although detox is not treatment, I have seen some of the most transformative conversations, you know, at detox where someone is at that point where they have just had the worst week ever.

 

They’re so ashamed, so sad. They’re so motivated to change. They’re so ready to change, and they still feel it so closely that they don’t want to go back. They don’t want to go through the doors, the same person they walk through. It’s very powerful.

 

[00:37:00]

So, there is an element, I do believe, of a good detox that is very nourishing and almost like a little treatment, but 5, 6 days after several years, several months of drinking drug, you know, using a substance to cope with feelings in life is not going to be enough.

So that’s why, you know, I, I know some people that they do a detox and I think, well, this is enough. You know, I’m, it’s out of my system, I’m never going to use again. So yes, you have that motivation and, and we believe in it, but also we need to get you through the behavioral changes it takes to maintain long-term change.

So, that’s where treatment comes in. So, residential treatment, ours is typically 35 days, but like I mentioned other, there are other treatments that are about two weeks. So in that residential treatment, you’re going to likely be meeting with an individual therapist, a medical provider, and be doing a lot of group treatment.

 

Group therapy is still found to be the most effective form of substance use disorders treatment there is, group therapy is the most efficacious treatment there is. So, why is that? ’cause most people come in and they’re like, oh, I just need like a therapist. I need a one-on-one. I need to go through this trauma.

 

I need to, you know, unload one-on-one.

[00:38:00]

They, you know, there’s a bar, you know, things that they don’t want to say in front of anyone else. The curative effect of the group treatment for substance use disorders cannot be matched. There is nothing that takes away the shame and the stigma of sinning in the room with someone else that you respect, you care about, and you see all the good in and hearing, oh my God, they struggled just like me.

They felt just as bad about their selves as I did. They thought this would never get better. They’re so embarrassed and ashamed just like I am, and I see them and I believe in them, and I think they’re incredible. It helps us start to see that in ourselves, that we deserve it. We are worthy, and we have a freaking chance.

If we can believe in someone else, we can start to believe in ourselves. And it’s just more difficult to do that in individual therapy and to get to that point of really seeing ourselves and others and seeing the humanity of this. Affliction disease, whatever we want to call it. Seeing this part of our human condition and learning to respect others, so that group therapy part is, is essential.

[00:39:00]

So sometimes it’s really important to find a residential, if you’re going to invest that time, energy, and money, that really puts us in a place where we can really connect with others. You know, build those cohorts because after we leave treatment. You know, our therapist may not be with us, but hopefully we have a WhatsApp chat.

We have a text chain with these people that we met, that saw there, that saw us grow, that saw in our independence, that saw working on these things in a really deep level. And they can remind us when we leave and go back out into the world. So the residential, again, a lot of groups, you know, at Mountainside, it’s amazing.

We’re on, you know, partially a private mountain. So, we do a lot of work on the mountain. We do work on high ropes, TRUS falls, hiking, camping, meditating, mindfulness. We have one of Connecticut’s largest labyrinth, you know, and I, I love that labyrinth because that like a spot. So I’ve seen two, like, I’ve seen two movies, right?

You know, in my head as I’m thinking about this, I’m thinking of the like lockdown, bare bones.

[00:40:00]

You’ve got a roommate, no privacy, you’re sitting in a depressing room version of rehab. And then I’ve seen the like idea that it’s, you know, this spa like experience rehab. Like what? What’s true, what’s different?

What are, what can you expect if you go to different places and how do you find a place that feels good? Obviously money is part of it, but like what are, what are the options out there like labyrinth and you know, yoga and hanging on the mountain? Well, there’s something too that makes it different than a spa.

Again, the criteria, obviously we are CARF and JACO, you know, Joint Commission, excuse me, I don’t like to call it Jayco Joint Commission Certified AAC. You know that there are conditions that make this different than going to Canyon Ranch or going to a spa. There are metrics we have to meet and things that we have to keep fidelity to that make this a truly treatment experience.

So ,I think it’s interesting. Treatment can be more bare bones and that doesn’t mean you’ll get well and it can be nicer, and that doesn’t mean you’ll get well. I do believe people.

 

[00:41:00]

When you have the opportunity to go somewhere where your needs are met and you feel really supported and you feel good, that is not a bad thing to feel good in treatment. To allow your body to feel good without substances is profound in its own way to let your body have experience. So, sometimes being in a place that has those nicer elements is very helpful.

 

What I think also too, psychologically, you will recount and recall and your body will remember that time.

And if it feels good in your body, I think it has a, a different kind of imprint. That’s not to say, you know, if people are going somewhere that maybe for example, takes state insurance and is a bit more bare bones, that they cannot get well there because a lot of this has to do with that readiness to change and that intrinsic motivation.

So I think if, if you’re going to use insurance, looking at where you are in or out of network, many insurances that are out of network, you can use your out of network benefits. Often detox and residential meets those deductibles so it. It becomes accessible for some people.

[00:42:00]

Not all, but for some people.

So, I think there’s a few different ways that you can assess, you know, what’s real and what’s not from online. I think certainly talking to alumni, visiting maybe their outpatient services, visiting the parts, you know, it’s hard to visit a residential but, or a detox. But visiting maybe the outpatient and seeing what it’s like seeing if this would be a good fit for you.

Talking to other people that have gone there, reading reviews, certainly. But I think, you know, talking to people that have gone here is very effective to see. Is it really like the website or is that just a beautiful website? ’cause there are a lot of beautiful treatment websites out there. So would most people, like, how would you find someone who’s gone there?

Do they give you like references? You could call in and, you know, you can speak to the treatment team, typically the admissions, and sometimes, you know, we, there are, you know, we have alumni ambassadors that talk to people, you know, that, that are willing to share their experience of what their treatment was.

[00:43:00]

Many times, you know, we work with a lot of independent therapists, so if someone really trusts their therapist, we invite therapists many times to come and go through our treatment, see our treatment, get a feel for it so that they can bring that back and tell their clients and the people they’re working with, what they think will be the best fit for them.

 

So, I think that’s a helpful way too, is looking at your therapeutic community and who they recommend, who they’ve worked for and had good experiences with. So, those are some ways to tell. So, I mean, it comes down to a lot that human connection and that human element. You know, you can look at, I, I think looking at some of what the treatment center puts out, the work they do, you know, I think that, you know, that’s what something mountainside we do, do very well in the community with thing, you know, offerings that we provide, educational opportunities and we’re really proud of the treatment we give and there’s not much to hide, you know, so, yeah.

And south outside, is that in New York or Connecticut, or where is that exactly? It’s just south of the Berkshires. So we are Connecticut, New York, and Massachusetts meet. Okay. So the northwest corner of Connecticut.

[00:44:00]

And then, we have outpatient locations throughout the tri-state area. I’m joining you today from Chappaqua, New York.

We have a location in Chelsea Manhattan on 18th and 8th. One in Ramsey, New Jersey, just across the bridge from me Huntington, long Island. That’s one best of long Island, several years in a row. Fairfield County, Connecticut. And then virtually we serve Massachusetts. And then, our recovery coaching program is international or national.

I mean, there are no boundaries to our recovery coaching services and also our free support groups. So we have a lot of free support groups that people join us internationally or from anywhere in the country. That’s great to know.

One of the things that we had talked about before was that you’re really passionate about family systems and healing.

 

And we had talked about sort of sometimes the profile of the partner of a woman who might be going to treatment. Just being like, alright, just fix her. Yeah, get her fixed. And then, she can come back and she can be good and she can do all the things.

[00:45:00]

Not realizing that the way their lives are set up or their relationship or something else is part of the problem.

 

Like, that’s what I always talk about on this podcast is like, you are drinking for a reason. This is your way of coping. It’s not actually helping you, but like, what are all the things that you don’t have to think about when you drink? For me it was like job stress and feeling overwhelmed and not really, you know, whatever it was.

Tell me about that. What you see when you work on like family systems and healing. The family work is absolutely integral. If the family is not healthy enough, or it’s an abusive family that we can’t, it’s counter-indicated to do therapy with. That says something too, right? If the family, if it’s so abusive that someone needs to be estranged and we can’t involve the family that says something.

So, I think going back to what you just said, we can look at addiction in so many different ways, and sometimes we look at it as an adaptation to trauma.

 

[00:46:00]

So, a way that someone attaches to something to avoid the discomfort and the painful feelings. So, when we look at that in a family systems approach, it’s really important that in sobriety we start to look at that whole system.

 

What are we avoiding? What is uncomfortable? What do we need to unpack? What do we need to shift? So you, this is a very simple metaphor, but you know, I always think you, you can’t take, you know, a fish. If you have a fish tank and the fish are sick, you can’t take it out. Then get the fish well and then bring it back to the tank without changing the whole pH, without scrubbing down the tank, without refilling it with water.

The same thing when someone goes to residential. You can’t just bring them back into the family system, the same exact family system they were in. Something has to change. The dynamic has to shift. The other beautiful element of incorporating family into treatment is it allows the family to learn while the person is in treatment, how they can best support them.

 

So it’s not just like they’re returned home and they’re like, what do we do now? Can we talk about alcohol with mom home? Do we take all the alcohol out of the house?

[00:47:00]

Those are things you should be working about working on the whole time, and not just the day before someone leaves treatment or their first day home.

Like, okay, what should we do with the alcohol in the house? Starting to plan for it, talking about it, talking about our fears, talking about our hopes for what it’s going to look like when someone returns is essential, and starting to know, well someone’s in a supportive environment if someone’s in treatment.

It is a very good opportunity for them to start to hear what it was like for the other partner. Those things can be extremely painful when you’re not in a supportive environment. And if you have a session where you hear some things that you weren’t like, that are really hard to hear because you hadn’t noticed, because you weren’t, you know, in your right mind for the past few months or years, it can be very painful.

So, having a place to process with your individual therapy, with your group, with the women on your floor is so important. Again, getting that reinforcement that you are not the worst person in the world, you know? And having that support from other people and no one can understand like other people that have been through it.

[00:48:00]

Yeah, so it’s this beautiful element of peer support and clinical support. And then, you know, again, for us, movement is so important to move it through the body, to heal the body on a somatic level as we’re doing that deep psychological work. And then I would be remiss if I did not mention medication.

Yeah, let’s talk about that. People, yeah. In early recovery, it’s a really good time to get your brain and body back to baseline. So, I like to say, so you might not want to stay sober forever, but at least giving yourself that opportunity for 90 days a year of in and out, having that stability so that we can actually see what’s there, see the anxiety, see the sleep disturbance, see the depression without the drinking, because we know drinking inflames, all of that.

We know that alcohol is counter-indicated with every drug there is, with every medication there is. It affects it all. Even our, you know, perimenopause, you know, it affects the efficacy of medications that we might use for some of the perimenopause symptoms.

 

[00:49:00]

So, removing the alcohol and then having an evaluation without the ups and downs of the acute withdrawal is really important to see things and see if there are medications that can be helpful, either maybe helpful without an end date or helpful until we can integrate those behavioral changes in our home environment to promote long-term sustainable change.

 

And I’m curious, we were talking about medication and there’s two obviously kind of different ways of looking at that. One is once. I’d love you to talk about in terms of how they work. I’ve heard of Naltrexone, I’ve heard of Antabuse, but then there’s also medication for those co co-occurring anxiety disorders or depression or a DHD or bipolar, whatever it is.

What, how do you look at those two? Or can you talk about what you see in terms of like, are Antabuse and Naltrexone helpful or is it more important to get medication for other things you might be dealing with?

[00:50:00]

It depends a lot on so many different personal factors. You know, for example, like anon, someone would have blood work done before, you know, to see and check and if it would be a right fit for them.

And abuse is an interesting one. You know, it’s been around since the 1950s and some people use it. As needed. You know, I call it wedding and abuse. They take it where they know they have a big event coming up at like in 2 weeks and they do not want to put it, leave it to chance that they will drink.

And that is enough of a motivating factor that they will not drink. I It makes you very ill. Yes, yes, yes. And abuse will make you very ill. Naltrexone is used for many different things right now, Naltrexone can be used like with Wellbutrin in the form. People sometimes have chore for binge eating disorder.

Naltrexone can be used for prolonged or complex grief, and Naltrexone is used quite frequently for alcohol use disorders and opiates. You know, it helps with cravings. What I’ve heard, and I’m not a prescriber, but from patient experience and from speaking with their prescribers, is that it allows us to slow down our thoughts enough to have more choice points.

[00:51:00]

To be able to make a different choice. And it helps in that way with the cravings and also I think helps to temper the cravings. And then I’ve also heard from people when they do drink on it, they sometimes feel like they can’t get as happy drunk on it. They maybe get sloppy drunk, but it’s not the kind of high, for lack of a better word, they’re looking for when they’re drinking.

It still allows them to get intoxicated, but it doesn’t feel, it doesn’t give them what they were seeking in that moment. But I, I typically, you know, we work really closely with our prescribers, so I often work with the prescribers and talk about what we’re seeing, what the client, you know, whether in group or individually, and then allow the client to meet with the prescriber to find the best fit for them.

You know, I think there’s an interesting movement around ADD and ADHD. There are a lot of non-addictive, non-stimulant. ADD medications now on the market, and then some people do still feel that they do better on a stimulant, ADD medication.

 

[00:52:00]

So, I think those are things for someone to work very closely with their prescriber, be very honest about, you know, what they’re seeing and be honest about the way in which they’re taking their, their medications to have the most efficacy.

But again, going back to the number one thing we can do to have our medication work is not drink.

 

Yes, absolutely. I drank for years while also taking antidepressants and also taking sleep medications. I mean, it was just a total mess. And it wasn’t until I stopped and got, like four months away from drinking.

So I could see my baseline that I could be like, okay, do I need anti-anxiety meds? Do I need anti-depression meds? Do I have something else going on? ’cause then at least I knew what my baseline level was without those highs and lows of inserting alcohol all the time. Can I speak just very briefly too on the other levels of care?

[00:53:00]

Because I, I, there’s so many acronyms in substance use disorder treatment, even, you know, at the VA was like SUD, you know, substance use disorders, SATP, you know, substance use treatment programs. So the substance use treatment world has a lot of acronyms. So I want to make sure people at least leave knowing one.

Always ask for clarification. If people start using lingo and you’re like, what are they talking about? Like, like ask. It’s absolutely okay. So. Detox, residential partial hospitalization program, PHP, which I probably shouldn’t say this, but I think it’s the hardest level of care for a client, for people to maintain.

 

It is like full-time job being in treatment. So a lot of group treatment, and it’s different than residential, where I think our residential is more, you’re, you’re in this sort of, you know, this, this milieu of safe space where everyone’s living together. PHP, you’re integrating a bit more of life, but you are, it’s, it is like, you know, like 8:30 to 4:00 with, with breaks.

 

[00:54:00]

But you really are like a job working either individually in family. Or with psychiatrists or in group, you have this very concentrated time. And that can be, you know, 2 weeks to 5 weeks in that level of care. That is something too that, you know, insurance comp. We work with insurance companies on to sort of meet the criteria and the standards of care that necessitate that level of, of care.

Then after PHP, some people, I don’t want to say step down, but move, move to a different level of care, which would be intensive outpatient program. So, intensive outpatient program is typically three hours a day for three days a week. So it could be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday schedule. We have a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, as well as a Monday, Tuesday, Thursday schedule. So, you know, if someone misses their Thursday, they could go to the Friday morning, et cetera. We have virtual and in person, but that is three concentrated hours where you’re still learning, you’re getting that psychoeducation and you’re getting the process. That really important group therapy component I talked about.

[00:55:00]

That is again, more of life is integrated in than the PHP and the residential. You might be back at home dealing with your kids, getting them on the bus, running to PHP, getting home to get them off the bus, making dinner, taking them to the lessons. A lot of life stressors are integrated during that time for people, or they might be, they don’t have children, they are back at work working a modified schedule, you know, and so they are working maybe, you know, in the evenings, but going to their IOP in the morning, which is also a really important element for a whole different podcast about talking about the rights we have to treatment if we have a substance use disorder, and how people can advocate in a professional in their employment to make sure that they have the ability to get the treatment they need and take it without professional repercussions.

 

So, anyways, we have the IOP, then that last level of the OP, the outpatient program, that’s again, individual therapy, and it could be one group, 3 groups a week. And the groups are typically shorter in duration than the 3 hours.

[00:56:00]

So, for example, we have like an integrative healing group that’s 75 minutes where people work on somatic healing techniques and integrate them into their life in the world they’re in with their individual therapy or a women’s group or a cognitive behavioral therapy group.

There are a lot of different individual groups we can do that are a bit less intensive than the intensive outpatient therapy, which is that 9 hours a week minimum. Some people do 12 hours a week, but 9 hours a week minimum of treatment. So get assessed, see what’s the right fit for you at this time in your life. Because if you start somewhere, for example, if you start at IOP and you’re unable to maintain your goal, if your goal is sobriety and you’re unable to maintain it because you’re drinking every weekend. Assessment is continuous. It’s not like you get assessed one and done, you’re assessed well your entire time and treatment.

 

So, if it’s indicated that you need a higher level of care, you can, you know, you can work with your clinicians to do that and get more supports in place.

[00:57:00]

Maybe it’s, you know, doing a recovery coach or a sober link, you know, a breathalyzer at home to help you get through the IOP or maybe it is going to a medical detox and then a residential, and then trying the IOP.

 

Yeah. You know, it’s not like it has to stay fixed and static. ’cause the reality is it’s never static, you know? So you’re continually being assessed through your treatment. Is this the right level of care? Is there enough support in place? Yeah, I love that you said that. ’cause I always think of layers of support and if you’re still drinking and you don’t want to be, or it’s causing harm in your life, it just means that you don’t have the right layer of support yet.

So, for me, I started with you know, a therapist who specialized in anxiety and addiction. Then, I tried a 12 step program. Then I went back to drinking. Then I, you know, read all the books, listened to all the podcasts. I was a member of a free online Facebook group. Then I added a sober coach, which was a huge differentiator for me.

 

[00:58:00]

Then I, on top of that, also added an online program and a group because I knew I was going to Europe when I was going to hit 8 weeks, and I wanted to like reinforce my commitment and my tools, and then I added therapy and anxiety meds and exercise and a community and all that stuff like that was the right level for me.

Other people who I know and love, have started with that and then been like, okay, I need a sober coach. And then been like, okay, now I want to go to IOP, Outpatient Program after work or on the weekends. I’ve had a few clients where they did go to inpatient treatment and are so glad that they did because it was what they needed.

And I, you know, if you’re listening to this and you’re assessing what you need, there’s no judgment in what the right level of support for you is. Everyone’s different and you just need to keep adding to it because, you know, Janaet can tell you, and I can tell you, it is so much better on the other side.

And throwing the book at this issue right now where you are is so much of a better investment than waiting 2 years, 5 years, 10 years down the road.

[00:59:00]

Yeah. And this, I hope this doesn’t feel a little random, but I want to throw in, I think one of the most beautiful benefits that people tell me about after treatment.

So usually it is, you know, the group, you know the group, the people around, and then I can’t tell you how many people, the second thing they say is not having access to my cell phone. It is the biggest wow relief for people. And it’s interesting ’cause I’ve been in detox. When we take the cell phones, we ask to take someone’s cell phone and we put it in the box and we lock it up.

And people, it’s almost, you could like see the physical withdrawal of like, don’t have my phone. And then, you see the overwhelm when someone gets their phone back. They’re like, I have 482 texts. You know, it’s like you feel it. And their body, their heart pounding. So, there is this incredible relief that people are getting this incredible co-occurring benefit from not being on a computer all day, not having to respond to the pings and the DMs and the messages and their cell phone texts going off.

That is one of the biggest freedoms I’ve seen in recent years, and it’s really important that we note that.

[01:00:00]

I know, I loved your interview with Dr. Lemke and Dopamine Nation, but it’s really important that we look at that, just our overall mental health, because that’s another way that people really numb out and it also really affects their self-esteem, which is very related, you know, to, and so important in early recovery to bolster that self-esteem and to work on that mental health.

So, that’s one of the greatest benefits I see people also get, it’s not just the abstinence from the substance, it’s the abstinence from the phone. And I’d say myself, even when I lead an IOP group, I never bring my cell phone into group. I would never do that. And I don’t wear an iWatch. Don’t believe in those things, but for myself.

I notice that I walk out of that group and I just feel so good that I haven’t been on a screen for 3 hours. I’ve been present with human beings for 3 hours, having really meaningful, incredible, interesting conversations. Where I’ve even changed, even though I’ve been doing this for a very long time, I just changed in that group. I just was present with people for 3 hours uninterrupted. It’s one of the best gifts we can give ourselves now.

[01:01:00]

So, I’m imagining that some of the people who might listen to this episode are the partners or the family members of someone who may be considering inpatient, outpatient, other, other kinds of treatment detox.

 

What advice would you give them about what they should know or how they want to be supportive or could be supportive if they don’t know what’s going on right now?

I would say the first thing to do is take care of yourself. Get your own support so that it doesn’t come out sideways or passive aggressive, that you can really tease out some of your fears and concerns.

 

If you don’t feel like you can safely talk about it with your partner in a way in which you won’t regret the way you responded. So, get help. Maybe that’s a therapist or again, a support group for people that have someone in their life that struggles. ’cause there’s a lot that can come into it. There can be feelings of, I’m not good enough. Or if they love me more, they would just stop. You know, if I do this.

 

[01:02:00]

If I took all the wine out, they would just stop and somehow, you know, people feel like it’s their fault or you know, that’s not the experience for everyone. People can feel like you know, that they, that this person has something you know wrong with them that needs to be treated, but that’s usually not their partner that can treat it.

That takes a professional that is not their partner wouldn’t be ethical even for their partner if they were a substance use provider or a psychiatric provider to treat their loved one. You know, it’s getting that objective help for them. So, I would say get your own help first. Ask your loved one to get some help and get evaluated.

 

To see if there is a problem. You don’t need to diagnose them, you don’t need to be the sober police. It’s typically very unhealthy for marriages. If one partner becomes the sober police and is trying to breathalyze them and keep them sober and detect if they’re sober and look in their eyes and be digging through the closet looking for bottles.

It’s not healthy for a marriage. So talk about it. Find your support and resources. They’re great podcasts. Listen to podcasts, get more information about substance use disorders. Know that you are not alone.

 

[01:03:00]

It’s not a lack for a lack of love that your loved one is struggling. You know, this is a disease that takes a lot of different elements to support.

So, I think, you know, getting help and getting more education are really important.

 

Yeah, that’s awesome. I am hoping that if you’re listening to this, you got some good information. You, you opened your eyes to a little bit about what treatment looks like or what treatment options you have.

If you are interested in exploring inpatient, outpatient, medically assisted therapy, anything at all, you should be really, really proud of yourself.

I’ve talked to so many women who say that going away to treatment has been the kindest and the best gift they’ve ever given themselves. If you are looking at that, know that you are really, really brave to do it, and you are not alone. Like Janice said, there are so many women and men who struggle with this.

[01:04:00]

It is way more common than you think it is, and if you are actually looking to address this and to get help, you are ahead of the curve. Because a lot of people never take that step. And if you are able to put this behind you, you will be so much happier and healthier for the rest of your life.

Jana, will you tell us where people can find you, learn more about Mountainside tell us about your podcast, all that good stuff.

Absolutely. So please check us out on Sober Spill where we talk about lifestyle, mental health and more than just, you know, sobriety. So, that’s our podcast, Sober Spill. I work at Mountainside Treatment Center. Our website is mountainside.com. Please check us out. You can see me on LinkedIn @Jana Wu, at Mountainside on LinkedIn.

But we would love for you to check out the podcast and definitely. We have these free support groups I mentioned. I rom one every Tuesday night that I love. I don’t miss for anything. And they are free and open to the public. So, check out the support groups on our website and you’re free and welcome to join them anytime.

[01:05:00]

 

That’s awesome. Thank you so much, Jana. This has been great.

 

Thank you, Casey.