Surviving Hard Times In Sobriety: Moving Through Betrayal, Divorce and Rebuilding Your Life Without Numbing Out

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking, alcohol, stop drinking, sober, survive, surviving, cravings, not drinking, alcohol-free, sobriety, hard times, messy parts, moving through, betrayal, divorce, rebuilding, life, without numbing out, mixed emotions, early motherhood, postpartum depression, recovery, married, mom, escaping the hard things, celebration, mental health, addiction, jail time, quit drinking, quitting drinking, mantras, 12 step program, people pleaser, anxiety, pain, withdrawal, positively moving forward, Glennon Doyle, Brené Brown, from the scar instead of the wound, resentment, social media, navigate, day to day, one day at a time

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Tiffany Jenkins

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hey there!

Hey there and welcome back to the Hello Someday podcast.

Today, we are going to talk about

the messy parts of sobriety with Tiffany Jenkins.

 

Now you might know her from her bestselling memoir, high Achiever, or her new book, A Clean Mess, and also her viral videos on parenting and marriage and addiction that make you laugh and cry at the same time.

Tiffany uses her platform to help inspire others who are struggling or those who just need a good laugh. She lives with her family in Sarasota, Florida. And Tiffany, welcome. I’m so excited you’re here.

Thank you so much for having me. I’m super excited to be here.

[00:02:00]

Yeah, I loved your new book, A Clean Mess. I had read High Achiever a couple years ago, but I read your book in one afternoon, just sitting outside on my front porch and it is a page turner and really good.

But for most people who don’t know you and your story, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your two books and why you wrote them?

Yes. Thank you so much for the compliment. First of all, I really appreciate it.

So, I’m in recovery from addiction. I have 12 years sober and I was in active addiction for around 10 years, and I got into a relationship with a sheriff’s deputy thinking that would be enough to keep me from using drugs and my life spiral downward in my attempt to hide my addiction from him for multiple years, and ultimately I ended up in jail.

 

And so, the first book was the things that led up to my jail time. And then, the time I spent in jail, this book picks up when I’m dropped off into the real world for the first time after leaving rehab.

[00:03:00]

And I have to learn how to start over as an adult in a world where most people already know how to function. And I have to start over, and try to figure out how to get my life back after losing everything. And in my case in particular. Some crazy stuff went down as soon as I entered the real world.

That kind of threw me even further into reality. I got pregnant after only being at the halfway house for about 2 months.

Yeah, I mean, in your book it was fascinating to read about what that felt like and what was that like, and I know. For me, motherhood was a huge trigger that escalated my drinking just because my God, infants and crying.

And how your relationship changes with your spouse and financial pressures and all that. You were in pretty early sobriety and trying to get your life together at that time.

[00:04:00]

What kind of pressures did you feel or how did you cope with them? I didn’t cope well. I was trying to figure out how to get trust back from my family, how to get a job, how to get a car and get my license and, starting over. And when I found out I was pregnant, as soon as I entered the real world almost, I got pregnant, which is my bad. You’re not supposed to do that.

But I met this really cute guy the night he was graduating rehab and we ended up secretly dating and then he accidentally got me pregnant the first night and

we had nothing. At the time, I had nothing to my name and. On paper, this looked like a terrible idea, but I had this weird faith and optimism that like it was going to be okay. And somehow this light growing inside me actually fueled me to want to do better and to work hard. So that really helped me during that time.

And then when the babies started being born, that’s when everything got crazy and that’s when everything changed and those feelings came in.

[00:05:00]

There was so many mixed emotions in early motherhood. I had two kids under two years old. Just back to back.

Yeah. And with my second child, I had postpartum depression.

 

So, how did you cope with that without going back to drugs or drinking or something else? Well, thankfully, I had a really great group of friends in recovery at this time. So, for me, that was my lifeline at that point because I had tried taking my kids into meetings, but carrying a baby carrier and a stroller and chasing around a 4-year-old, ’cause there were three kids.

I went from being single in a halfway house to like a married, mom of three, in the span of two years. I wasn’t really getting much out of the meeting, so I wasn’t able to lean on that recovery aspect of it, but I had friends that were in recovery that were by my side helping me in. The thing is, being a parent is so hard in general, being a parent who all you’ve ever known is escaping the hard things or celebrating.

 

[00:06:00]

That’s how it was for me when I was using, if things were going great, I would use, if things were going terrible, I would use, if I was stressed, I would use, and that was all I had. And so when those were taken away from me and I was left with these little lives in my hands and I didn’t have that crutch, I had to really dig deep for the tools that I learned in rehab.

Yeah. And what were the ones that helped you the most? I think for me, the step work was really important. I. Because I got to look inward for the first time and really like, figure out why I did the things I was doing. I didn’t do it right. In my opinion. I want to sit here and say like, here are the tools that I used. And everything was great, but it really showed up, like resentment for my husband. Crazy outbursts on my part, exhaustion. He worked and I was home with the kids and so, that was my role and he had his role.

[00:07:00]

And I’m going off topic. I just wanted to bitch about my ex-husband, I think for a second.

No, do it. Do it. He’s great. I feel like one of the hardest things that happened to me in, and I was, I was drinking. Didn’t drink during pregnancy, but was a heavy drinker before and pretty soon after my kids were born. Was just trying to sort of reclaim something for myself or prove to myself that I was more than a mother.

And it’s so hard when your spouse is out all day. I mean, I think I almost melted down at my husband because he went and got a coffee. After work and I was like, you get your fucking ass home. I’ve been trapped with this screaming baby for like 12 hours and you’re getting a coffee. And he didn’t get me one .

No way. Yeah. He walks in with the Starbucks and I was like, are you kidding me right now? Is he still with us? He is still with because there would’ve been murder at my house.

[00:08:00]

I know. Oh my God. And I remember I was pumping one day and I was like so annoyed and irritated and angry and he was like, maybe you’re depressed.

And I was like, maybe you need to fucking step up. I was you. Yes, but like, so you mentioned, you have two little kids. You’re a stepmom. I mean, two kids in two years, I can’t imagine you are not using, right? You’re navigating life sober. You have all these new skills, and then, you’re also resentful and irritated at your husband because he can just walk out of the door and go to work.

Absolutely. And it wasn’t like, he was even necessarily doing anything wrong. He was keeping the roof over our head. He was making it possible for us to live, and I’m so appreciative of that and so grateful. And unfortunately, with things the way they are, somebody’s always got to be working in order to survive.

[00:09:00]

And so, I was jealous that he got to drive around and listen to music. That was not Mickey Mouse. I was jealous that he didn’t have to buckle or unbuckle anybody getting in and out of the car. I resented him just for doing what he was supposed to be doing. And then when he would come home and not immediately grab the baby out of my hand and draw me a bath and fan me with a pom fron, I would just lose my marbles.

I’m like, you’ve been home for a minute and a half. Why aren’t you helping? And he’s like, I haven’t even put my bag down yet. Calm down. It’s tough. It’s so dark during those times. It’s so dark and there’s so much resentment and there’s, it’s really hard. And then, just as soon as you get used to one season in parenting, then something changes and it’s just constantly changing.

And I feel like I never really have my footing in parenting and I never really know what I’m doing. Yeah. It does get easier. I mean, my heart goes out to people with infants and toddlers.

[00:10:00]

I think once my kids hit the age of five, I was like, okay. Mine are 11 and 17 now. They’re awesome.

Especially once my son could drive. I’m just like, all right, you’re good. That’s awesome. But God, the little kids, it’s so physically and emotionally draining. And then, that just for me, it became who I was. I was a mother. I was constantly taking people places, feeding people, carrying people, putting people to sleep.

Like, it was what I did. It was all I knew. So, then when things hit the fan in my life and I had to start over, it, it’s really weird. To go from All – being that you’re a mother to not having your kids a week at a time every other week. Yeah. And that’s what happened with me when we started sharing custody.

I, when the kids weren’t here, I’m like, who the f am I? What do I do if I’m not taking care of people? It’s so weird. It, when I was in the trenches, I never could have pictured a day when I would be waking up without my kids.

[00:11:00]

It’s just so crazy. So take us through that ’cause a lot of women have gone through divorce and are sharing custody and have that sort of absence in their life and that heartbreak.

 

But so, you got out of rehab and out of jail, you got pregnant pretty quickly. You had two kids within two years. And then, you also added your stepdaughter. Mm-hmm. Tell us about sort of how you got from there to where you are now, because you also go on tour, right? Do you do standup comedy or something? I, I don’t do standup comedy.

Okay. Sorry. No, don’t be sorry. I am always so particular about that because I don’t ever want to steal credit from people who do standup comedy. What those people do is so brave. I go on stage and I share my story in theaters and comedy clubs and stuff, but the people buying the tickets already know me and they already dig me, so they’re there to support me.

[00:12:00]

If I were to walk into a comedy club cold, nobody knew who I was and try to tell jokes and win ’em over, I would just cry and pee my pants probably. I would just, I would be about it. But I do comedy tours, so yeah, so I had postpartum depression with my daughter. She had a bunch of health stuff going on when she was young, so she just screamed all day and it was really hard to bond with her when I ended up eventually getting help for my postpartum depression, the day that I was debating on whether or not to fake a kidnapping and leave the kids in the crib and run away, but I ended up getting help for myself instead. That changed everything.

And one thing that the doctor suggested was that I start writing, and so I began writing my story down, things that happened in the past, things I was struggling with currently, and then I decided to share them on a blog for some reason.

I thought I was going to be a blogger, and it just got really crazy. After that, I started talking about motherhood, the real stuff. ’cause when I would look around on the internet, everybody looked perfect, like they had their life together. And I was failing, I felt like when I compared myself.

[00:13:00]

So, I was like, let me put some real stuff out there and just see what happens.

And people began to gravitate towards me. And then, when I started talking openly about addiction and mental illness. That’s when things really exploded. And before I knew it, I had a million followers. I had people calling for interviews. It was nuts. And then, I was releasing this blog about my time in jail, one chapter a week that was really captivating people.

 

It was so surprising. And this one woman said she’d loved to be able to send her son my writing, and he was in jail. And that’s when I got the idea to turn my blogs into high achiever. And so during this whole time, you are married and raising kids? Mm-hmm.

[00:14:00]

Yes. And he, it’s crazy because it went from him working and me staying home with the kids, to me becoming so successful that he actually sold his company and he started staying home with the kids while I worked and we got to switch roles and it was a very cool thing at the time because it was like, yeah, mother Effa, how do you like it? Diaper town. Yeah. Welcome. Like, it was, it was very cool. He handled it well. He was a really good sport. He didn’t ask for any of this. When he first married me, I didn’t have a platform or anything and so, he was a great sport throughout the process.

He helped tremendously with the children while I was going on tour and. Working on things and it was great. And we ended up buying our first home, which was such a gift. It was a two story home, which is crazy because, we started off with nothing in halfway houses. Yeah. Yeah. So to be able to buy a home was just, I was like, my parents would be so proud of me.

So, not to brag, just like knowing where I came from. Like it was such a huge thing.

[00:15:00]

He picked out the house, this is where we are going to live forever. And then SHIT hit the fan.

Tell us about that. So, I was on tour doing a comedy show. I was gone a lot. He was home with the kids, of course. And there was a bachelor trip coming up for, a friend and I, my main concern at the time was him going over budget. That was my biggest concern. That was the worst case scenario for me. I never in a million years did it cross my mind that what actually happened was a possibility. So, he went on this bachelor trip with a bunch of friends who all had a decade of recovery or more.

And while on getting ready to go out on stage, I got a really weird message from him. And that’s kind of where the book opens is me getting this message. It’s very ominous and sketchy and I think he was trying to cover his butt, but he made it even worse. Like it sent up my Spidey senses and that’s when the truth about everything that happened.

[00:16:00]

Well, most of the things that happened came out was when I finally got him to talk to me while I was on the road. I don’t want to give too much away, just ’cause I’m afraid. I might say too much. I tried to write the book in a way that gave people the information that they needed without completely trashing anybody without destroying anybody. I just, I wanted to present the facts and so the facts are he went on a bachelor party, did some shocking things, and my life was flipped upside down and I had to start over at age 38 by myself in this home. That was empty half the time. Now, suddenly. And I had to learn how, like he did all the finances for everything.

He paid the bills, he was the brains of the operation, and I was just the creative one. So, when he left, like Bills started piling up and lapsing and it just, it, it got really dark.

[00:17:00]

I actually didn’t even write about this too much in the book. How bad things kind of fell apart on me for a minute, but I’m working.

It’s just a work in progress. I would rather be struggling to figure out where my place is in this world and what I’m supposed to do than be sitting in a situation that wasn’t right for me.

Yeah, absolutely. I, I have been rambling and I apologize for that. You’re such a good listener.

No, you’re like an active listener with your hand on your face. So it makes me want to keep talking. For some reason, like therapy,. I’m happy to talk about it. I think that if there’s a way that, something that I say to myself quickly in the moment of stress that might help somebody else, it’s worth sharing. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I have my own mantras that keep me on the course.

[00:18:00]

Mm-hmm. Of not drinking. ’cause we all have that pull to be like, oh, maybe I could do X, Y, Z now, maybe it wouldn’t be the biggest deal in the world. Right? Whatever it is. So, what mantras do you use or tell yourself on a regular basis that help you get through really tough moments?

I went through a 12 step program for my recovery. It’s what, it’s what worked for me. It’s what I needed and, and I never want to tell anybody that they have to do things any certain way because I don’t believe that. So, within my 12 step program, they give you all these one-liners that are so annoying and redundant and awkward until you’re in the heat of the moment, you’re panicking and you need to feed your brain something that will satiate it to help you get through the moment.

And then, you remember these quick little easy things that are so dumb. They’re not dumb, they’re great. But so, for me, I have a few that I repeat to myself often, and it’s just the one day at a time thing.

I have a tendency to want to fix everything immediately.

[00:19:00]

I want things to happen when I want them to happen, and I have to remind myself. Like, Hey, if this feels impossible, take it one minute at a time. And if you need to take it 10 minutes at a time, take it just 10 minutes. Make it through the next 10 minutes, and then the 10 minutes after that and every 10 minutes of hell you go through is a 10 minutes of hell.

You never have to go through again and just take it one minute at a time. That really helps me. My father told me that when I’m freaking out and stressing to just look down at my feet, because that’s the only moment that’s guaranteed. That’s the only moment that truly matters in this moment. So, when I start obsessing about the future or tripping about the past, I just look down at my feet and I’m like, okay, yes, I’m going on a plane next week.

Yes, I might die on the plane, but I am at Publix in the checkout line and I don’t need to let these thoughts take place in my brain right now. So, I’m just going to look at where I am and be there, and that helps me out a ton.

[00:20:00]

Yeah, I also have a lot of insecurity issues and self-esteem issues that I’m always working on forever.

But something that helps me, not just with not drinking, but just with not trying to people please and, give up my boundaries to help other people.

I tell myself it’s a Dr. Seuss quote and it says, Those who mind don’t matter and those who matter, don’t mind.

Yeah. And that I tell myself that at least twice a day because I have to remember what really matters.

Does the opinion of Deborah in San Francisco who said that my nose was big and my jokes are stupid, really matter? Or does the opinions of my kids thinking I’m a great mom who engages with them matter, and that’s what matters to me, not that. So, I have to remind myself of that.

Yeah. I also, I told you before we jumped on that I did go to a 12 step program for about four months, the first time I got sober.

Mm-hmm. So, like most people, I had a million day ones, and then I had one time where I was sober for about a year, and then I went back to drinking for two years, and then this last time was 9 and a half years ago.

If you’re listening to this episode and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®. The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study, sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step-by-step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one-on-one coaching. And The Sobriety Starter Kit® is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it, when it fits into your schedule.  You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time. This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step-by-step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life. You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better, you’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course.

 

[00:21:00]

Mm-hmm. But some of the, phrases from AA did really resonate with me and they, they helped me.

Mm-hmm. As I go on, like one of ’em is similar to what you were saying about Dr. Seuss. One is, what other people think of you is none of your business or something like that.

Absolutely. Keep your own side of the street clean. That’s so hard. ’cause I am, a total people pleaser. Mm-hmm. With anxiety.

Do people like me bad boundaries, like mm-hmm. Lemme make everything okay. And so it was really hard for me to think that people didn’t like me. And I know for a lot of women who listen to this, they, they almost want to drink because they don’t want to disappoint their friends who’ve always drank with them.

Mm. And they don’t want to make them uncomfortable or they feel like they won’t have as good of a time if, quote unquote, I’m not drinking. Mm. And so what you were saying is like, figuring out what matters and who you need to keep your promise to or disappoint is really important.

[00:22:00]

Absolutely.

If you were my dear friend and we drank together often, and you decided one day that you had an issue and needed to stop, the last thing I would ever feel is disappointed because I’m your friend and I feel like if somebody is truly your friend.

Then they won’t be disappointed. And even if somewhere deep down inside of them, they were disappointed that you weren’t going to be able to party anymore. Like, hopefully they don’t express that to you because they should be cheering you on and rooting for you is what they should do if they’re a true friend. And I didn’t realize what a real friend was until I got into recovery.

Yeah, and I think that a lot of people who have issues with you not doing that have their own challenges with alcohol or drugs or whatever it is, like they feel like you not drinking impacts them somehow, or that you’re judging them or you think you’re better than them or all that kind of stuff.

[00:23:00]

Absolutely. It, it could be a number of things and, and that makes sense. It, it’s their own demons that they’re dealing with, their own guilt and their own shame, and maybe it highlights the fact that they aren’t stopping and they need to, that’s a possibility. It could be that they just have fun when you’re out and they don’t think you have a problem, but if you know you have a problem, you got to put your body in safe situations.

Absolutely. And just give yourself a chance to get away from it. Mm-hmm. And see how you feel without it.

The other phrase that really helps me is, just do the next right thing.

Mm-hmm. , Maybe it’s like one day at a time, but for me it is. I repeat it to myself when I get totally overwhelmed and it could be about work stuff or about my kids or whatever it is, but I’m like, just do the next thing. What’s the next thing I need to do?

Yep. Everybody, they said that to me a lot in the beginning and that it was kind of like when I first got sober, my sponsor was like, when you have trouble making decisions, just do the opposite of what the old you would do.

[00:24:00]

Yeah. So if you would normally, step over a piece of paper, bend down and pick it up, if you would normally panic in a situation, breathe instead. Like do the opposite of what the old you would do. And it’s probably the right answer. Yeah. And it works for a little while ’cause my own first thought is always escape.

Yeah. Well, and I was curious because when your husband relapsed and then the shit hit the fan and everything kind of fell down, were you tempted to escape during that entire period, or were you like, I have to stay sober because otherwise it’s all going to explode?

Yeah, that one. I, I don’t want to say this because I don’t want to make him feel bad or I don’t want people to look at him. It was. The deepest pain I’ve experienced and I’ve experienced death of both my parents, all my grandparents. I’ve experienced the pain of withdrawal.

 

[00:25:00]

I’ve experienced so much pain, and the pain of the idea of your future and your family, and the way that you’ve always seen it shattering into a thousand pieces in front of your eyes.

 

It’s just, I can’t even put it into words. So, anyway, so it was incredibly difficult and I felt like I needed to be committed throughout different points. There was genuine points where I was like, I think I need to be under someone else’s care because my emotions are in the driver’s seat right now.

Like, I could not control them. I could not get a grasp on them, but I did know that I didn’t want to use, because now more than ever, my kids needed someone. You know what I mean? And I, I knew that even though trying to escape the pain would have felt great in a moment. When I play the tape all the way through, I know how it ends.

And it’s with my kids growing up without their parents. And that is something that I could never, I could never, yeah. And nobody, how old are your kids now? They’re nine, 10, and my bonus daughter’s 14.

[00:26:00]

Okay. Yeah, and I feel like I need to clarify this ’cause I overthink everything. So many of my friends have lost their children through addiction.

So many of my friends who’ve said I would never do that, have done that. Addiction and alcoholism and substance use disorder, all of it is so powerful and so baffling, and it turns you into a person that you don’t want to be. And so, I don’t want to invoke any feelings of shame or guilt in anybody who may have at some point along the way lost.

Their children. So, for me to sit here and say, I could never, I want to be clear that I could, and it’s possible any minute now. But I don’t want to, like, nothing in me wants to, so I got to just do the next thing like that was the thing that helped you hang on.

Exactly. Get different kinds of support was thinking about.

Absolutely. Yeah. And, and the situation itself was so crazy because all of the men that went with him on this trip.

[00:27:00]

We’re married to all of my best friends. And so, it was. You all went through it together.

Exactly. Which I wouldn’t wish on my worst enemy, but it was such a surreal experience to have all of us women sitting in my living room with tears running down our faces just like looking at each other like, what the hell just happened?

And what are we supposed to do? Yeah. First of all, I think that no one should go to a bachelor party in Vegas if they are past the age of 25. Like, that is rule number one for me. Yeah. Maybe I’m wrong. I went to a bachelorette party in Vegas when I was like 26, and we went and saw the thunder from down under like stripper show.

But fun. I mean, that’s fun. I’ve never wanted to back since and I was definitely drinking at the time. Yeah, I don’t know. I think it’s because of the safety and numbers thing. I think it’s because of the people who were going it. When I think of these people, a relapse, crazy stuff is not a possibility because I know them and they wouldn’t do that.

[00:28:00]

Like it was never it. It sounds so obvious of co. There are a bunch of addicts going to Vegas. What did you think was going to  happen? I get it. I get it. But to be. So close to the situation and to have so much faith in your partner and his friends and so much, it just didn’t even occur to me that, that I could be betrayed like that.

It just didn’t even occur. So what’s helped you move through that? I saw that you got off, what did you got off TikTok for a year. Did I, did I see that right? I did. On your social media? Yeah, I got through sports. So how did that, I mean it, that must have been hard, right? For your career, for, what you do for work.

What made you decide to do that? Because I mean, I’ve, I’ve heard some people and I forget whether it’s Glennon Doyle or Brene Brown or someone else. But like the idea of share from the scar.

[00:29:00]

Don’t share from the like open wound while you’re going through it. Ah, I love that. Okay. Because that makes so much sense to me because I stepped back from social media, all of the social media when this happened because I didn’t want the world involved in my shit.

I didn’t want the opinions of thousands of people I’ve never met. I didn’t want people to bash him. Or my friends and I didn’t want to put anything out that would change the way that my kids viewed their father. So, for about a year, I hardly posted content. And if it was, if I did, it was me defending myself against like, weird comments I was getting.

It’s hard to be funny, when you’re heartbroken. It’s so hard. And that was something I had resentment against also. I was like, damn, dude, like. Everything is affected by this. And so, I didn’t, yeah, I didn’t post on social media. I stopped making videos. I stopped doing all of it, and it definitely affected me financially.

 

[00:30:00]

Of course it did, because my job was something that I, in my opinion, and I could no longer do authentically, and so it became very difficult and I was in the middle of writing this book. Actually, I had finished writing this book when everything happened. The manuscript was already submitted to the publisher and I said, I have to have it back.

Some shit went down and I can’t let the book go out the way it is because it’s not true anymore.

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s good to let yourself heal, but also I know that ’cause I’ve worked with thousands of women who are trying to quit drinking and they look at social media, and they see we all post for a date night where people take a picture of their cocktail.

 

Mm-hmm. And they’re like hashtag date night or whatever. They show pictures of like them wine tasting, whatever. And all these women are like. Why can’t I drink like that person does? Why can’t I be pulled together like that woman is, and I think it’s, it’s hard, like sometimes when we talk to each other, we’re like, okay, here’s the picture I posted on social media and here’s what was going on.

[00:31:00]

Mm-hmm. During this time. And there’s so far apart, mm-hmm. Like just a couple weeks ago, I posted a picture of me and my family going to Hamilton. Right. I’d never been to Hamilton. Everybody had been to Hamilton. It was like the cutest picture the entire time I was texting all my girlfriends ’cause my husband was being the most passive aggressive dick. And I was just like, I’m going to fucking kill him for ruining this for me. What the hell? I told my daughter who’s 11 because you’re not supposed to bring him into your shit. But I was just like, you have to be nice to me and sit next to me ’cause I cannot handle dad right now. Like I want you seated next to me. But you didn’t see that on social media, right? Right. You saw. All but like, oh my God, they’re so cute. Whatever it is. I actually tried not to post anything too mushy for that very reason. I always knew in the back of my mind that he wasn’t my person and to no offense to him, I always knew, I knew it before we got married.

[00:32:00]

I got pregnant and we thought the right thing to do would be to get married. So, we got married 5 months after meeting each other and I was already 3 months pregnant by then. I didn’t even know the guy when we were doing our vows and stuff. I really, truly didn’t know him, but we made it work and he’s a great person and we somehow made it last.

But I always knew that he wasn’t my person. And so, when I would post, I’d be sure not to use language like soulmate. This is it. This is because I knew it wasn’t how I was feeling inside and I didn’t want to give a false view of my relationship. But of course, I had hopes ’cause we had kids together, so there was mushy posts.

I’m sure. I’m sure. But I made sure not to be like, this is the one and everything’s going to  be great forever. Because I was like, mm. He started going to the gym twice a day. I knew I was screwed.

Oh yeah. That’s never a good sign. Right.

[00:33:00]

You know, he is an incredible father and we are doing a great job, co-parenting.

It was definitely a bumpy road, so we’ve been divorced for about 2 years now and it was a very interesting time in my life when he began seeing other people because it, to me, it was like very quick after the divorce, which maybe it wasn’t in the grand scheme of things, but to me it was. It was like, wait, we were just married. 5 seconds ago, who is this bitch? And, but it was very weird.

And then to have the kids go over there and come back and tell me stories about it, it was heartbreaking and it was devastating. And I was like, dude, if I could drink, now would be the time that I would drink. Yeah. Now would be the time. I have friends who are going through that and clients right now where they were completely certain about their decision to get divorced because they were so unhappy and.

Then immediately afterwards, what feels like to them, their spouse is suddenly happy and dating and having sex with other people and they are the mom who is not the fun mom. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:00]

Who is doing all the work. I know other women struggle with this as well how did you talk to your kids about what was happening while also protecting your own mental health and their relationship with their father?

It was so hard. It was really hard because. They were angry. We had a talk with them and we’re like, me and me and Daddy are, we’re going to get another house and Daddy’s going to live in that one and I’m going to live in this one and we’re going to try it out. You guys are going to go back and forth and hang out with both of us at our own house.

And we tried to build it up and make it sound super fun. And one of my kids was emotional. My son was like, bet can I move in with dad full time immediately tonight? And I’m like, you son of a bitch. The kids. In the beginning, we’re always like, why aren’t you and dad together asking questions they didn’t understand.

[00:35:00]

There were times they’d get mad and blame me and I’d have to lie because if I told them the truth about why me and their dad were together, they would just cry and need therapy for the rest of their lives probably. So, it was. I had to fake it. You got to fake it as a parent, you got to smile and put a happy face on and I never want them to feel any of the weight.

That I am bearing when it comes to adult situations. Yeah. How is going out after this book, the Clean Mess, different from when you finished high achiever going out? Well, like meaning talking to people about it or in terms of how your life is. Did you feel the same when you were talking about high achiever as you do now?

No, it’s a completely different experience now because I wrote about something I wasn’t ready to write about. I wrote about something that was happening while I was going through it and to have to memorialize one of the worst situations I’ve been through in a book for all time, for all people to see because I already had a book deal.

[00:36:00]

It was very, there’s a lot of weird emotions like resentment and anger and frustration. So, when I talk about this book, it’s almost like this wasn’t the plan, but it’s what it was always meant to be, I guess. And I have been receiving a lot of really great feedback about it. That’s helped ease me into it a little bit.

 

I was really worried about how people were going to perceive it. I was really worried about any potential backlash him or his family might get. And I tried to write it in a way that that wouldn’t happen, but you can never be sure.

Yeah. So, I’m just trying to navigate the release of the book and the questions and the people in my life who were like, was that about me?

And I was like, I’ll never tell. I can’t tell.

Yeah. I was going to ask you why you wrote it while you were going through it, but it was ’cause you had a book deal and you needed to I had to, yeah. I had already, I had been writing this book since 2019 and I had trouble writing it because I never knew what the storyline was.

[00:37:00]

I knew I wanted to tell people about when I first got out of rehab and entered the real world, but I didn’t know how to talk about anxiety and motherhood and everything in it that I wanted to talk about. And it was supposed to be a story about two addicts beating the odds, making it through and creating a family.

 

And obviously, how awkward if I would’ve released that book. And then, people were looking up at my page. So I had submitted the finished thing and then I was like, I need it back. I need it back. I got to rewrite it. And then, it was another couple of years.

Yeah. You know what’s interesting? You definitely are not the first author, who’ve gone through this, and I’m thinking of 2 people in particular.

One is Glennon Doyle, who had written Love Warrior which was all about her marriage and bringing them back together, and then, they, it’s in her story, but they didn’t end up staying together.

 

[00:38:00]

Mm. For a whole bunch of reasons. And she ended up, finding out stuff about her husband and then falling in love with Abby Womack and starting an entirely new relationship.

Yeah. And so, that was similar in terms of the book was out and she needed to be honest about what was happening in her life because sort of the way the book resolved was not end of the story the way it was supposed to be.

And the second one I remember, ’cause I’m very, very close to her story was Stefanie Wilder-Taylor. Do you know her? She wrote Drunk-ish.

No, it sounds so familiar.

So, she was sort of a hero of mine when I was drinking because she, when I was a new mom, I was fully immersed in the like, mommy needs wine culture. Mm-hmm. And she had written these books called, Sippy Cups Are Not for Chardonnay, and Nap Time is the New Happy Hour.

And I bought them and loved them and gave them to all my friends. And she was a standup comedian who wrote books about motherhood.

[00:39:00]

Mm. And then, after her second book came out and before her third book came out, which was also about the drinking wine culture, ’cause that was sort of her shtick.

A story came out in the New York Times that said, queen of Mommy Happy hour gets sober and she had quit drinking and had written about it, like she decided to quit on Friday and wrote about it on Sunday. And then, a reporter got ahold of it and put her whole story out there while she still a book coming out about drinking as a mom and all this stuff.

And so, I talked to her about it in some ways because, and I think you’re going to  help someone with this because it helped me. I wasn’t ready to hear the message. My son was six months old when I saw that article at the newsstand. I was so deep in drinking and held her up to be such a hero.

But I saw that article and was like, holy shit. And I bought the newspaper and then I looked it up online and I copy and pasted the entire article into a Word document and I sort of hid it away for years.

[00:40:00]

And then, when I was ready to stop drinking, I looked her up and she was instrumental in my path to finding groups and help to stop drinking.

But if she hadn’t been honest, I could have gone another 5 years thinking, well, Stefanie’s doing it and it’s fun for Stefanie and there’s nothing, like how that’s so celebrated.

So, yeah, I mean, I can’t imagine how hard this is, but I, I can imagine that, being honest and, and, exposing your vulnerability and how difficult it is, is making someone out there who doesn’t have the Instagram perfect life on the inside feel less alone.

I hope so. That. That’s my goal. And that’s the thing too, is knowing that something that I write might be able to help somebody out there who’s going through something similar. It kind of makes it worth it to me. It really does. When somebody sends me an email and is like, your booked to help me more than, I’m like, oh, okay, alright.

[00:41:00]

That’s why I did it. That’s why I’ve been mentally exhausted for this whole year knowing it was going to come out. But. It’s people resonating with it that make it all worth it. I feel like we go through these dark things and these terrible things so that one day we can help other people see that they’re not alone.

And, and I knew while I was going through it, there was a reason.

Yeah. My life is so different today, but I really love that thing you said about from the scar instead of the wound, because people were demanding that I talk about it about what was going on in my personal life.

They were like, you owe us. We’ve been following your journey forever. And I’m like, I’m trying to survive people. I don’t have any answers to give you. I’m in the middle of it. What do you want me to say? This sucks. Okay. Like, I couldn’t.

Yeah. You’re not able to process it yet, right? You’re just trying to get through it.

Navigate day to day.

Navigate, yeah.

 

[00:42:00]

Yeah. So, what would you tell someone who’s in that, dark place, whether it’s in betrayal or addiction or anything else they’re going through?

I’m trying to think of a common theme that might answer both ’cause it’s, my answers I think would be different if you’re going through betrayal. Something that truly helped me get through that time was seeing a betrayal trauma therapist. It was life changing for me and it just so happened to be the same person that him and I began seeing. After Vegas together. But then when we divorced, I saw her for a separate type of treatment, which is be betrayal, trauma as the betrayal. I guess.

So, getting help for yourself during that time is so important because those feelings, dude, those feelings of betrayal are some of the most painful things to ever, I didn’t even know they existed I until I experienced that.

 

[00:43:00]

So, having a group of friends around you is super important. Make sure that you’re taking care of yourself and I just would like to say this, not that this is going to be the case for anybody, but I just, it’s on my heart to mention it. I have been with someone for one year now and this person has treated me like a goddess since day one. There is not one minute in our relationship that I have felt anything other than completely treasured and it’s not something that I lost all faith in love and relationships and other people after this happened. And I am reporting from a place of knowing what real love feels like, what real respect feels like, what down to your core compatibility with another person feels like. And so, if you’re going through betrayal and there’s a part of you that thinks this will never get better, it’s a blank slate, dude, you’re at the beginning.

 

[00:44:00]

You have a fresh start. You can absolutely decide what you’re going to tolerate from here on out going forward, what you’re willing to accept and what, whether or not you’re going to settle like that is a gift. And it’s hard and it’s scary, but I am happier than I could have ever dreamed would be possible in a relationship.

 

So, that’s amazing.

Yeah, it’s really crazy and, and I’m always afraid, I’ve always been afraid to speak so openly that way about another person, because I don’t want to look stupid on the internet, but I’m saying it with complete faith that I believe that this is my person and I’m good, but you know, who knows?

We never really know. So, just make sure you have cool friends around you to help talk you off the ledge when you start getting crazy.

Yeah, cool. Friends is the most important thing.

Yeah, for sure. We all need them.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Anyone who is listening to this definitely get both books. They are honest and raw and interesting, and you’ll read them and just feel all the emotions.

[00:45:00]

So, is there anything you want to share as we finish this and where can people find you and follow up with you and get the book?

Sure. I just want to say, I’m sending love to anybody out there, who is struggling or who is curious or about this way of life. I’m sending love to you. Life is really hard to navigate and our brains are weird, and so, you’re not alone.

And thank you for having me. My book is a Clean Mess. My social media handles are @jugglingthejenkins, and yeah, I’m very grateful to be here.

 

Thank you. . Thank you so much. Bye-bye.