SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Drinking, stop drinking, quitting drinking, stopping drinking, 12 steps, 12 steps program, skeptics, common, misconceptions, path, sobriety, recovery resistance, creating a community, helping people overcome, internal resistance, moderation, recovery, Alcoholics Anonymous, AA, sponsor, triggers, anger, unmet need, radical acceptance, Quit Lit, sober curious, sober, sobriety, social media, mindsets, alcohol-free, impact, mood, relationships, priorities, thinking, compassion, practice, stop drinking, take a break from drinking, get out of the drinking cycle, find support, spiritual, higher power, heal, choices, reinterpretations, God, powerless, alcoholic, self-compassion, alcohol, emotional state, brain, Science, spirituality, energy

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Arlina Allen

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

 

Hi there.

Today, we are talking about

the 12 steps. And more specifically, this episode is for those of you who are skeptics of the 12 step program.

 

And I have to raise my hand and say that I’m in that category.

So, I’m really glad I have this guest to offer her perspective.

My guest is Arlina Allen.

[00:01:45]

I have known her for 5 years. We are friends. She’s a podcaster. She’s a Coach. She’s also the author of the 12 step guide for skeptics: Clearing up common misconceptions of a path to sobriety.

She’s the host of the One Day At A Time Recovery podcast. She brings 30 years of research and personal experience to help others become the best version of themselves.

[00:02:13]

She lives in Idaho with her amazing husband of 30 years, 2 incredible sons. And her English bulldog, Teddy, and before we jump in, I also want to say that I have so many friends, so many amazing friends who I completely respect who are members of 12 step programs and have said, that it has helped them change their drinking.

 

[00:02:37]

They absolutely love it. They love the friendships, they love the camaraderie, and I did attend AA. It was 12 years ago, the first time I stopped drinking, but I went for 4 months. I did a lot of big book study meetings. So, I am not anywhere near in the program, but I, have attended it.

[00:02:58]

And so, Arlina, welcome.

[00:03:00]

Thank you so much for having me. It’s so good to see you. I know it’s been way too long.

[00:03:06]

So, to start off, tell me about the book and why you wrote it.

So, listen, I didn’t actually want to write the book because I was like, Oh, here we go. But the underlying message is that.

[00:03:20]

This is a process, very pragmatic, practical way to unpack your baggage, sort through, the dynamics that are underpinning, the compulsion to drink. Right?

And I’ll just have to say that 30 years ago when I was considering when I was sober curious, there was nothing else.

 

[00:03:40]

So, I didn’t really have a choice in ways to get sober and to be frank, I’m so grateful because if I was getting sober today, I would probably choose something different and I would have missed the magic of this process. And I just want to say right up front that. I see that there’s a lot of social media sobriety, a lot of Instagram accounts focused on sobriety, which I love.

 

[00:04:08]

I think it’s so amazing for so many reasons. I was noticing a backlash, like people openly bashing 12 step and I could see that there was if there was just, you. You know, and I’m saying this with all compassion. If there was just a tiny little shift in perspective they could get the benefits without all the BS.

[00:04:29]

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I’ve been doing the podcast for 8 and ½ years, you know, talk to a lot of people and I, and I’m open to all pathways. But I would, when I would ask people, did you try 12 step? You know, there’s some things about maintaining anonymity. Anonymity and so, I want to be considerate of that.

[00:04:50]

And so, when people say no, I would often ask why and when they would present their argument quietly in my mind with all due respect. I’m like, that’s not a thing. Like, that’s not a reason not to do the steps and I just want to separate right from the start in the book. I was like, okay, what is it that I really want to say?

[00:05:13]

And I feel like the main barriers to entry were around the people. When I ask people, like, why they didn’t do it or whatever, a lot of times it centered around the people and so my, the only thing I’m saying is, the 12 steps are a worthy endeavor.

 

[00:05:31]

And that the meanings and the people are not the program, the program to the action steps are in the, in the 12 steps. And that’s really all I’m saying. I’m a layering kind of girl as I, I like to layer all kinds of tools. And it’s like we could just consider this a tool.

 

[00:05:48]

So, I wrote the book to be like, Hey, you know what, if, you’re thinking about doing it, there are some things you need to know before you go in some Mindsets that you want to adopt and, I want people to be able to go through it safely because there’s some definite pitfalls.

[00:06:04]

And so, I’m like, Hey, here’s, here’s a way around these barriers and pitfalls get the magic at the end. And that’s really what I want to talk about. It was like, there are so many benefits. There’s a way around all of obstacles.

Yeah, and you did a very good job in the book in terms of like, here’s the step.

[00:06:21]

Here’s the principle. And then here’s how you can reinterpret it or how you reinterpret it or how you move past the words on the page.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because I had, truth be told, I had a fair amount of religious trauma. I grew up in the church, so I had a fair amount of religious trauma myself.

[00:06:41]

And my first obstacle was the God thing. I was like, uh, this is what this is. I can’t do it. And I’m sure you read about my sponsor, Kimmer’s, you know, she did that thing where she was like, okay, Here’s a piece of paper, write down all the positive qualities, you know, let’s just for funsies say that there is a God and just, you know, write what, what, what would it be?

[00:07:03]

What were all the positive qualities are loving, powerful. I’m the favorite, you know, stuff like that. Like, more than anything else. I’m amazing. I’m special. And then, the other side was like, punishing, controlling, judgmental. You know, just all this. And so, she’s like, are you done?

[00:07:25]

So, I handed her my paper, and she ripped it in half. And she handed me the positive qualities. And I was like, that’s it? And she’s like, that’s it. And I was like, okay. So I could kind of get on board. Yeah, but, but I had when I was growing up, I did have positive experiences in the church. So it sort of allowed me to shed all the negative trauma that I acquired later.

[00:07:52]

So, to be fair, If people are religious or had been religious in the past, this will be an easier sell for you.

[00:08:00]

If not, it does require maybe some mental gymnastics, but it’s totally worth the effort.

Yeah, in the end and so I have to say in my experience and we’re going to dive into all the pieces of the book.

[00:08:15]

When you were writing about the misconceptions or the things that people had issue with in the program. I was like, yeah, I have an issue with that. So, like, this will be a good conversation because you’ll be able to talk to me about.

 

And, anyone listening who has the same approach, I have to say in my experience, I actually loved the people I met in AA.

 

[00:08:41]

They were incredibly kind and welcoming and understanding. I did only go to women’s meetings. I think I went to like two mixed meetings. And I went to almost all big book study groups because I was like, I want to understand this.

[00:08:58] I want to get through this. [00:09:00] I got a sponsor. I started the steps and my issue was not at all with the people. And so I want to dive into this because I really liked the people and you were writing in the book about the positives and all the things that were amazing about the program, and I agree with all of them. It is free, there were meetings, multiple meetings, every single day, right near my home. If you’re lonely, or people don’t get it, or people don’t get how hard it is to stop drinking, hearing other people who struggle with it, Is so helpful. I totally understand this sense of belonging the social support and you know that I spent a lot of time trying to moderate.

[00:09:49]

I mean, years and years and I advocate for taking a period of time completely alcohol-free, no longer trying to moderate, at least 100 days, see the impact it has on your life and how much it impacts your mood and your relationship and your priorities and your thinking.

 

[00:10:07]

And the fact that AA is abstinence based, I desperately didn’t want that, but that approach is what I needed. and actually after attending for a while, a lot of the sayings I’ve kept with me and they’ve been really helpful. You know, the idea of keep your own side of the street clean and what other people think of you as none of your business and other things that I’ve been like, okay, this is helpful.

[00:10:38]

So, I think it’s whatever approach works for you and the people who have gotten sober in AA are so passionate about it and it’s helped them so much and that’s awesome.

[00:10:49]

Okay, that was a very long from my side, but we were talking about this before and I wanted to like be up front is where I’m starting.

Yeah, no, I really appreciate your transparency and I actually really welcome it because, you know, it’s like we need to sort of unpack.

[00:11:07]

So here’s, here’s 1 of the things, um, people leave because they get triggered. And maybe I’m just weird, but I kind of have a tendency to lean into the triggers because what I know is that whenever I feel triggered about something, it’s, it’s anger.

And Tara Brach, she wrote this amazing book that I recommend all the time called Radical Acceptance. And she says in this book that anger is a sign of an unmet need. And that really sparked my curiosity and what I have found, and this is interesting because in 12 step, you know, the fourth step, which is probably my favorite because it’s so pragmatic, but they start with what are your resentments, right?

 

[00:11:53]

I also like internal family systems. They, they use this, you know, where, where is the pain because the pain is the trailhead. And if we can have the courage and persistence and determination to really unpack, it takes a lot of courage and vulnerability to unpack what’s really going on underneath that, right?

[00:12:13]

Because whatever brings a charge, right? Is tied to a wound that we’ve dissociated from, from the past. So, like, in childhood, there are events that we, cannot process to resolution. Like, I had a parent that did not, wasn’t paying attention to my emotional needs, didn’t give me coping skills.

[00:12:36]

Um, my mom actually was someone that used anger to squelch down my big, I had big feelings. She didn’t know what to do with me and she used anger to kind of squelch them down. And so, what that part that got squelched down, sort of like got frozen in time. And because, like, process those feelings to resolution.

[00:12:55]

I dissociated from it, but it’s still there. It’s like a barrel of toxic waste that leeches into every other area of my life. And I know it’s there because whenever I have a response, an anger response, that’s disproportionate to the situation, it’s not about the situation. It’s about the unresolved feelings from the past that I’ve dissociated from.

[00:13:15]

And the tricky thing about dissociation is we don’t even know it’s there. Like I was telling you earlier, I go, Oh, it sounds like religious trauma. And I kind of got the sense. You’re like, man, I don’t think that’s it. But that to me is a sign of dissociation. Something happened or it continues to happen.

[00:13:31]

That like, it’s like a soul bruise. It’s like, you know, someone brushes up a bruise, you’re just like, how that hurts, right? But these are invisible bruises that we have from the past. We only know that they exist is because we get triggered. So you know who Marianne Williamson is.

[00:13:50]

Yeah, of course. Return to love. Not she looks during the course of miracles. She had this great analogy that I’ve adopted to 12 step meetings, like the people in meetings and this whole process.

She said, a gemologist will take 2 rough amethysts and put them in a tumbler together. And as they tumble against each other, they knock off their rough edges. So that when they, after the tumbling, you pull them out and they’re smooth.

 

Well, I almost feel like the whole 12 step process or going to meetings and, or bumping up against people in life. We’re bumping up against other people with their rough edges.

 

[00:14:28]

And if we have the courage and ability to really get down to what’s underneath everything, that is where the healing occurs.

Yeah. And that we can be free. So, like you’re talking about Mel Robbins, let them. This is how we let them. When we resolve our own triggers, we are less affected by other people. And I don’t want to be affected by other people.

 

[00:14:55]

I don’t want other people to be able to control whether I am peaceful or not.

Yeah. That makes a ton of sense.

Yeah. So, sort of the mindset is allow yourself to be triggered. Allow yourself to get angry because underneath all that is where the healing lies. And I just have found that the 12 step meetings and the people who I often find very problematic, they are my biggest teachers and my ego hates that.

[00:15:25]

Like I remember hearing it was like I was so mad at this one woman who just bought the shit out of me and I’m for a variety of reasons. And someone told me, Oh, she’s going to be your biggest teacher. And I was like, excuse me. I don’t think so, you got nothing I want. But the truth of the matter was, is that she was reflecting back to me, things that I hated about myself that I have totally filed.

[00:15:49]

Yeah, and I totally get that and I same thing when I’m feeling insecure or jealous or less than or whatever it is I do sit there and be like, okay, this is someone even said to me I’m like X triggers me and they were like no it is triggering something in you and when you talk in terms of There is something behind, your resistance or whatever it is.

[00:16:13]

I have to say that, my work, and you’re a coach, so your work too, expands, you know, multiple fields in terms of inputs and your own approach.

So, mine is definitely a practical habit change approach. I know that a big part of 12 step is that too, and I think that you can get some of that work in terms of like, okay, what is this triggering in me?

[00:16:38]

How do I change my behavior? What have I done that I need to shift? You can get that a lot of places. You can get that in 12 steps, you can get that in therapy, you can get that with a coach and, the work that you do in 12 Steps is really useful work. It’s just, for me, I think you can get it a number of different places.

 

[00:17:00]

Now, they’re not all free, widely available, um, you do need to find people in this process with you. You do need to find people who get it, and I think going to AA meetings are the most and accessible way to find that community.

[00:17:17]

I have to say that one of the things that I think probably has hardened me since I became a coach is I get a lot of comments from AA people.

[00:17:28]

They’re just angry that I’m talking about walking away from alcohol in a different way. That is not their way.

[00:17:37]

Yeah, that’s so that’s, um, again, that’s the people, right? Well, can be really problematic and here’s the deal. And I was just experiencing this myself this morning. If you go to 12 step meetings, they told me when you get sober that, um, if you stay sober long enough, you’ll go to a lot of funerals. And that’s definitely been the case for me. Um, I remember there was a gal who had, she’d been sober for like 13 years.

[00:18:06]

For a lot of people, alcoholism is a, or alcohol use disorder, however you want to couch it. For it’s a spectrum, right? And there are a lot of people on the extreme end and for them to break is potentially fatal. And I had a girlfriend that I went to high school with who was 13 years sober and she relapsed and she was in sort of this relapse phase and she was married.

[00:18:33]

She had 4 kids. The youngest 2 were twins. They came home one day and they found her and she died. She died. Oh, my gosh. So yeah, that’s heartbreaking. It’s heartbreaking. And so, me, as a member, I go, oh, my I am reminded about how severe it is for some people and. It’s a reminder for me to stay close to my program.

[00:19:00]

I’ve been sober for 30 years, but there’s this thing, how far down the road you go, you’re still the same distance from the ditch. And that’s absolutely true. And in science terms, we have something called a default mode network. Our brain operates in a certain kind of, we’re sort of hardwired in a certain way.

[00:19:18]

And my hard wire includes, um, I am alone. I’m unworthy. I’m not good enough. Nobody’s coming to help me. I need to figure it out on my own, right? That’s my hard wire. So, I have practices that I have incorporated to help me stay away from the ditch, so to speak. And it’s sort of like, you wouldn’t eat one salad and expect to stay healthy forever, go to the gym once and, you know, you’re like, we all get that maintaining health at an optimum level as a practice, but what happens to people in a rooms a lot of times is, um, it’s the only thing that worked for them. It’s a life and death issue.

[00:20:00]

And we see people die frequently, like this morning, I, attended this really tiny little meeting. I only go to this one meeting anymore and it’s online. And a woman showed up to talk about how she had an accidental overdose, but she had survived because 1 of her friends, 1 of her 12 step friends had checked in on her and got her to the hospital and they saved her.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®.

 

The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course. 

 

[00:20:22]

It could have been a very different meeting this morning.

Yeah. So there’s fear. So these people, they are acting from a place of fear, and so just see that this is fear, then maybe you can invite some compassion for them.

[00:20:39]

And so, I just kind of set these people aside, though, because they are not the majority. Yeah, there is this, this way is the only way thinking that is a huge turnoff for me personally. And I, uh, that’s one of the things that upsets me is when people How do they feel about the fact that you’re a sober coach and you’re not coaching people through the 12 step?

[00:21:02]

Are you kidding me?

Yeah. I mean, yeah, the thing of the matter, the truth of the matter is I don’t charge for 12 step work.

[00:21:09]

Yes. Oh, I know that I completely. I don’t do 12 step work. I actually, it’s so funny because most of the time, my job. I feel my, I think of myself as a resource coordinator, you know, because I know what my lane is and I, and I’m not going to be all things to all people.

[00:21:26]

So, I’m a resource coordinator, but I’m just walking somebody through a process.

[00:21:32]

And you even said in the beginning of this book, you were like, this book is for people who are interested or considering it or, um, thinking about 12 step and are hesitating because of these barriers to entry.

[00:21:50]

Is it for people who are adamantly like, that’s a no go for me? No, and like, uh, when we were talking before about the God thing, the book, and, and I was like, okay, let’s just skip it and go to the end of the book where there are other, there’s like other ways of getting sober, other ways of doing the steps that completely bypass God, which is like smart recovery.

[00:22:12]

It’s still the steps, but it’s 100 percent void of God. But I do have to say, I do have a friend who’s been sober longer. Well, I was going to say longer than God, but, um. He, loves AA and in his mind, he just go, he just had a way. He like worked it out and that’s it.

[00:22:35]

Yeah. I’ve had him on my podcast, like three times. He is a staunch atheist and in his mind, he focuses on the principles. I can’t wait to get behind honesty, surrender, compassion, love, love, like everybody can get behind that. So taking responsibility for your own reactions to things. Yeah.

[00:22:58]

Yeah. So literally, that’s it. But if like I’m saying for you, I would be like, Oh, you should be, you’d probably be a great fit for smart recovery. My thing is, there’s a balance between being open minded and identifying your triggers and getting, you know, doing all that work.

[00:23:14]

There’s a place for that. But listen, we need to meet we need to meet people where they’re at. And if this is not your thing, then there’s other ways. Like, my and the most important thing is to find support that will help you. Stop drinking or take a break from drinking so you can get out of the drinking cycle. However you do that is good. You know, yeah. Yeah.

 

[00:23:37]

And the truth is, it’s like, okay, let’s stop drinking. And then once you stop drinking, like, that’s when the whole world opens up, like, that’s when that’s when everything really begins. Right. It’s interesting because the quitting drinking part is just a very short amount of time.

 

[00:23:52]

People don’t realize like, that’s a short phase. And then we, we establish as practices and things like that to everything that came up of the reasons why you drank the underlying reasons why it worked for you, other than the fact, it’s addictive and all that stuff is stuff that you actually have to move through.

[00:24:13]

Yeah, and that’s 1 of the things I really liked about meetings is that people were talking about their life challenges. And the 4 step was a great way to, sort through emotional baggage. You know, emotions color our, our perspective. It’s hard to see the solution, when you’re in it, right?

[00:24:30]

Like, we’ve all had a girlfriend that comes to us and complains about her man and she’s like, he’s a wow. And we’re sitting on the outside, unemotional, objectively going, oh, I can clearly see what the answer is. There’s the saying that you can’t read the label from inside the jar and when we’re emotional, the jar and what I loved about the 4 step, it was a way to sort out my resentments, who specifically was I resentful at get really specific about the causes because typically there’s many and then how was it affecting me like my self-esteem and my personal relationships, my financial security, emotional security, all these ways. It was actually affecting me.

[00:25:09]

When I wrote out the entire four step, like all of a sudden I saw these patterns in black and white and it broke my denial. Like if you’re in denial, how do you know?

[00:25:18]

Yeah, your patterns, how you react to people. So, let’s dive into it. Let’s have you, because you’re so calm and emotionally aware that when I’m talking to you, I’m like, okay, yeah, I can see how this relates to all the work I’ve had to do when I’ve stopped drinking.

I went to therapy, I went to coaching, I went to coaching school, that’s a ton of work in terms of looking at yourself. So the work you’re talking about doing that is the work that needs to be done.

[00:25:49]

So, let’s dive into it. One of the things I wanted to ask you about, tell me what the top three trigger words are that keep people out of 12 steps.

[00:26:02]

Yeah. So, the 3 trigger words are God, powerless and alcoholic. So talk about alcoholic 1st. Yeah, you know, I participate in a lot of other recovery communities and. And would hear people proclaiming, I will not use a shame label.

[00:26:19]

And I just always thought that that was so interesting because, for me, it is, very tightly tied to, this idea of a badass. Like, somebody who is like, I’m an alcoholic. I go, oh, they, are confronting a set of circumstances. It’s very hard to admit that you have a problem with something.

[00:26:39]

So, to me, immediately, like, oh, that’s a person of courage. It requires a lot of self-reflection and a lot of self-honesty, a lot of vulnerability, a lot of humility. And, you know, it just immediately I, because all the alcoholics, I know we’re in a 12 step program who were practicing this way of life that demanded rigorous honesty and for the most part, they are striving towards and bettering themselves. So, the best of them, I was like, Oh, that’s what an alcoholic is. Yeah. Me too.

Yeah. I’m striving. I try to try to practice humility. I try to practice self-reflection to keep my side of the street clean. It’s like, and it’s hard. It’s a hard way of life. So there’s a lot of this, what I talk about is redefining what words mean.

[00:27:26]

Yeah. Without experience and practice, all you have is your existing meaning and emotion tied to it. So there is a period of adjustment when you start to redefine a word. It feels uncomfortable at first, but pretty soon it becomes second nature and it becomes like unconscious confidence.

[00:27:47]

Yeah. Can I give you what my resistance is to the word alcoholic? So, and I’m, I’m sure people may or may not agree with it, like, that is, and we can talk about it, putting the blame on the person versus the addictive substance. What I hear from that is essentially, you are this category of person who cannot drink for whatever reason, because you are an alcoholic.

[00:28:15]

And in my mind, the way it’s set up is the idea that is something inherently with the person, and therefore they’re an alcoholic, versus this substance is addictive. To everyone and anyone who drinks enough because of habits, emotions, social circles, they’re in, whatever it is, culture will eventually go down the path of becoming addicted to it.

[00:28:46]

I mean, if people are part of a 12 step program and identify it with that. I think it’s awesome. Like, if it gives you black and white, and if it makes you identify and feel belonging. But I went to meetings and it was almost like, if you didn’t say, hi, I’m Casey, I’m an alcoholic people would be like, you’re in denial, like, get over your ego.

And I said it because there was all this peer pressure and I hated it, so, okay. Tell me why I’m wrong.

[00:29:19]

I think, you know, it is a concept that’s it’s a persona. It’s an identity. And sometimes, like, when I say I’m an alcoholic, that aligns me with a lot of people who get my kind of crazy. Like they just get the way I think.

[00:29:37]

Um, so people with alcohol use disorder who struggle with drinking are trying to make sense of it. And there is a lot about this identity as alcoholic that makes sense to them. Right. And, and, um, when I was hearing what came up for me as you were sharing is about this idea of blame, like whose fault is it?

[00:30:00]

Is it the, the alcoholic, the alcohol industry, it’s addictive, like what I’m hearing is maybe hurt or anger about who’s to blame and I was taught early on. It’s not your fault, but it is your responsibility. And so, for me, I don’t. It doesn’t like, I don’t, I get uncomfortable hearing some of the ways that people think, but I’m like, that’s like, where they’re at the moment and they’re trying to make sense of it.

[00:30:29]

So, they’re taking this information and this terminology and the parlance of 12 step and trying to make sense of their lives. And that’s a great place to start. And my feeling is, is that if they can stick with it over time, they will gather more information and they will grow and evolve from that place.

[00:30:48]

And it doesn’t really like, in the beginning, when someone is getting sober, it’s like, oh, I’m alcoholic. That’s why I think this way. The truth of the matter is, is that not all people who drink alcohol become alcoholic. There is something different about me. When I drink alcohol, there’s like a switch that gets flipped and all I want is more, and I’m not able to able to control how much or how often, and it kicks off this obsession of the mind.

[00:31:13]

Right. And so I just know that I’m this type of way and there’s other people who are this kind of way, too, and they understand me. I understand them. And I’m so grateful that I have them and sometimes we call ourselves alcoholic. And by the way, the reason that people are so adamant is 1 of those things about saying, my name’s Arlina, I’m an alcoholic type of thing. So, when it 1st started, everybody was welcome to come to meetings. So, there were like, family members and you know, research or whatever, there’s all kinds of people going and then the people who actually needed to speak at meetings, we’re not getting to speak because all these other people were speaking.

[00:31:50]

And so, it became a way of saying only the people that are struggling with this thing, they get priority to speak and some people would start saying, my name is Arlina. I’m an alcoholic. So, that was like, I have the right to speak.

[00:32:03]

It was like a signal that I am not an outside observer or commenter on the meeting is for me.

[00:32:14]

Yeah, and meetings evolved over time to where there were closed meetings where only people that were alcoholic could attend. Um, and so that’s kind of where it started, but it was 1 of those folklore things that sort of took on a life of it. So, did you ever see that movie? A few good men where they talk?

[00:32:30]

Yep. The guy’s on trial and he takes the book and he’s like, okay, show me where the mess, you know, where in the book is it that the mess hall, you know, and the guy’s like, it’s not, I just followed the crowd. That’s what happened to like, with that’s kind of how that’ll a whole thing. But for a lot of people, it’s like a sense of belonging.

[00:32:46]

It’s like, and so, but I just want to validate that your, your feelings are valid in it. There are things about it that make me bristle too, but the truth of the matter is like, that’s where all my friends were. I had, respect and standing in my community. I had an opportunity to share how I really felt and really bond with other people.

[00:33:09]

And it was. So ,it was just package. The whole thing was just package to where there were so many good things about it that the things that bothered me were sort of. You know, I would just, I would just let them, if you want to talk about it. And your feelings about them changed.

Yeah, because the truth of the matter is, is I, as I offer them compassion, I can offer myself compassion more easily.

 

[00:33:36]

And so, it became a practice of compassion.

 

Yeah. What about if you don’t identify as an alcoholic, you are, peer pressured into saying it’s true. And if you don’t, you’re told that you’re just in denial.

[00:33:58]

You’re 100 percent right about that.

[00:34:00]

You are pressured. You’re it’s in the book. Yeah. And you’ll hear people say I’m a real alcoholic. I’m a recovered alcoholic. I have recovered. You’ll hear you’ll hear people introduce themselves in a variety of ways. And what if you don’t want that word at all?

Hey, I’m Casey. I want to see what it’s like to stop drinking.

Yeah, people will be like, people laugh, you know, people will be like the condescending laugh. And it’s a little bit like, oh, oh, you think you’re better than us. You know what I mean? Like, it’s a thing. You almost have to say it if you’re going to go to a meeting.

[00:34:42]

Well, you, you can say, um, my name, my name’s Arlina and I’m recovered. What if you’re not recovered? What if you’re drinking and trying to stop drinking? Yeah, it’s very difficult to, like it’s easier to just say it and move on.

Yeah, that’s what I found and that’s what I did. But it bothered me and what I’m hearing is you need to look past that to get to the, you know, like, the idea of take what you need and leave the rest. Sometimes it’s just not worth fighting.

[00:35:13]

Yeah. Yeah. They’re just, they’re just not.

And I know people in smart recovery who have great lives, who practice all the self-reflect. It’s totally void of a lot of the things that you’re talking about, maybe this will be like, this is a 12, you know, it is, I did say 12 step, so I didn’t talk about Alcoholics Anonymous a whole lot.

 

[00:35:38]

And at the end of the book, I’m like, if, if you’re too triggered by all this stuff, skip it.

And that’s what I love about you. That’s why I wanted to have this conversation with you about your book rather than someone else who was. not as, mm-hmm. Open. If this is not like, here’s my perspective. If this is not for you, that’s okay.

[00:36:02]

There are plenty of ways to move through.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. The sobriety process, I am. I am a, take what you like, leave the rest kind of girl. I, I like the layered approach and I like trying different things. I interviewed this guy from Recovery Dharma recently, and I’m so intrigued by it. I had him send me a list of, uh, Dharma meetings.

[00:36:23]

Cause I really, I really find myself gravitating towards like Buddhist because Buddhist is actually not religious. And I just, I don’t know. It’s just see, it’s like of compassion. Anyway, like I found myself. So I’m a, I’m a, I’m a, somebody called it a recovery promiscuous. I love that. Or like a patchwork.

[00:36:43]

People talk about a patchwork. Okay, a patchwork, but promiscuous is funnier. But I just like to try all the things.

Yeah, because and this and I wrote this because I myself am a skeptic at heart.

 

[00:36:54]

Like, I, I didn’t really yeah, I didn’t really realize what a skeptic I was, but I’m an experimenter like, I love science and so a lot of these, I keep a lot of opinions to myself and meetings, but, um. And I had somebody, you know, oh, she’s going to meetings. These people, these people are telling her what she has to do.

[00:37:15]

I go, those are actually just suggestions. And I suggest that you take in information and run the experiment for yourself. See what happens. But in the running the experiment, there is an element of critical thinking because when you run an experiment, you examine your results and then you go back to the presupposition of the experiment to see if the hypothesis was correct in the first place.

[00:37:42]

If not, like, how would you adjust the hypothesis and then run the experiment again, a scientist will run the same experiment in different ways. Many, many times. Well, I’m not suggesting you take a suggestion and run the experiment and be like, oh, that didn’t work for me. I’m out.

[00:38:00]

I’m saying, oh, well, maybe reexamine the hypothesis, run the experiment again.

[00:38:06]

Sounds like you ran the experiment for four months, didn’t work for you. And well, there’s maybe another experiment to try, maybe a smart recovery. But it’s still the 12 steps. So, right from the beginning of the book, I say the 12 steps are a worthy endeavor. I’m not saying it’s the only one, but my God, I can tell you. I have had, and I am a spiritual person.

 

[00:38:29]

I’m not religious. I very much, when I first got sober and there was nothing, I was desperate to be sober. I mean, there was no, there were no, Quit Lit wasn’t a thing. Like, there was no recovery. Like, Big Book was the only Quit Lit. That was it.

 

Yeah, that was my option. Or church, and church did not work for me. I, I grew up in the church, and I tried to be good.

[00:38:52]

I, I surrendered. I begged God. I’ve been begging God to fix me, my entire life. And I just couldn’t be good. And I decided if I couldn’t be good, I be good at being bad.

That’s okay. Speaking of which, um, let’s talk about the God thing. Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because, um, I had rejected God, um, because I’ve been begging God to fix me, my whole life and it couldn’t.

[00:39:21]

And when I got sober, it was like, oh, you, you know, listen, I was really at that bottom, like dark night of the soul where it was like, I, and I was in so much pain. I was like, my, my debt, my choices were death or, uh, I didn’t want to, I didn’t want to die, but I couldn’t continue. I knew I couldn’t continue suffering the way I was suffering.

[00:39:40]

Yeah. Yeah. What about if someone is not there? What about if someone is not at that dark night at the soul, but they are sick of waking up hungover, or not remembering the end of evenings? You know, you were like, hey, when I came in, I was so desperate. I was going to try anything.

[00:40:02]

What if you’re not where you were?

Yeah, this is a matter most of my clients are not.

Yeah, but do they, do they do the 12 steps? Not usually to be honest. Not usually sometimes I suggest it because I feel like everybody needs a community. But what I think is so exciting about all this Dry January and all these recovery memoirs and, and, um, being alcohol-free is really entering mainstream. A lot of this, a lot of people are actually trying to reach their highest potential and live their life purpose and discovering that what’s so interesting once you hit about 40 or 50, you really cannot continue on the same using the same tools that have such a high price tag. Right? Alcohol has a really high price tag.

Yeah, an initial benefit, but it carries a heavy price tag. And so most of the people I work with are like wanting to optimize and they’re just like, I need to shake this thing.

[00:41:02]

And I’m just having struggle, a struggle, you know, shaking it. And so the bottom is when you decide to stop digging, right? And it’s really when we, we’re start, we start to focus on what is it that we do want for the rest of our lives? Who am I? What do I want? And what’s preventing me from getting there, right?

[00:41:21]

And the thing that prevents us from getting, reaching our highest potential are often things like alcohol. And so that is, that is typically a good enough reason. I tell people, it’s like, you can stop suffering whenever you want to. You don’t have to hit the bottom rung.

[00:41:35]

I’m just saying there are other things that you can do because a lot of times it’s like, oh, I feel like I need I deserve a treat at the end of the night. I want to relax. A lot of it is around relaxation. It’s like you’re just like, and we’re tired. We’re tired.

And I’m just saying there are other ways that we can relax and start to invite joy into our lives. You don’t have to use that anymore. And in the truth of the matter, alcohol is always medicine. We’re always using it to change how we feel. And I’m just saying. We have like, you and I are both saying the same thing.

[00:42:08]

We have other ways. There are other tools.

Yeah. And it won’t be as satisfying at 1st, like, these other tools are not as satisfying at 1st or they’re not as immediate.

[00:42:18]

Yeah, and there is a period of dopamine detox, you know, and you know, there’s like the people are like, oh, life feels flat. I feel this boredom that is detox period. So, I think if people understand, what, what challenges are headed their way that when they arrive at them, they go, oh, I. I mean, they’re prepared for it.

[00:42:38]

Totally. I know we both interviewed Anna Lembke of Dopamine Nation. In her book, she explains really well what happens to your body and why you feel flat after you stop drinking what’s physically happening in your body. I feel like understanding the mechanics is so important because when we look at things through a science lens. It depersonalizes it so that we don’t begin because your brain is like a meaning making machine. We’re looking for why and we often assign a moral meaning to things.

[00:43:14]

And what we’re saying is, it’s not your fault.

[00:43:17]

Can I ask you a question though? Because we were just talking about the science of what alcohol does to your body. And when you remove it, what happens and how it’s a quick way to change your emotional state or impact your brain.

 

[00:43:31]

So, in terms of God, in the 12 steps, here’s what I’m reading.

Step 6. We were entirely ready to have God remove all of these defects of character.

Step 7. Humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings and then there’s more by the way, those are quotes directly from the actual steps. I actually had to ask permission to use the steps and did.

[00:43:58]

Wanted me to write them exactly as they were written, but in my mind, I don’t, I don’t gender God one way or the other.

Yeah, but then step 11, sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for the knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

[00:44:20]

And there’s more, right? But that’s not science. And, I like your reinterpretation. In terms of how it’s written so we were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Your reinterpretation is with self-compassion and an understanding of what drives my negative behavior.

 

[00:44:44]

I ask my higher power to help me heal and make different choices.

 

Now, for me, if you removed the word higher power, I would be like, yes, a hundred percent, with instead of we were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character saying your reinterpretation with self-compassion and an understanding of what drives my negative behaviors.

 

[00:45:08]

Do some work to heal and make different choices, but as I was reading what you did with your sponsor and some of the steps I was like, wait, that’s. That’s God. So, tell me about that. Yeah. So, I do consider myself a spiritual person.

[00:45:26]

I just don’t align with dogma of Christianity. I don’t, but I do believe that there is, there’s something, and I honestly don’t know what it is. I do feel like when I gave my first sponsor, that list of characteristics for funsies, like just pretend. Um, I gave her things like the energy of love. There is power.

[00:45:50]

There are things that are happening in the world that are outside of my control. There are things that science can’t explain. Like, um, and I think, I don’t. I think I gave the examples. I went to a meeting one time and my, my very first sponsor was there. And so, when I tell my story, this is just going to be a quick story, but, um, I went to a meeting and I was sharing my story and I’ve been, I’ve been saying it for years.

[00:46:16]

So, I usually have, I don’t know what happened. Like, when I go to a meeting and I say a prayer and I was like, just help me say whatever it is that you would have me say. It’s sort of an opening that expands my mind a little bit, my heart. And, um, when I was telling my story, I just found myself saying my sobriety date, April 23rd of ‘94.

[00:46:33]

I never say that. I don’t normally say that. And, um, I had called on my sponsor to share and she was like, oh, I want to pass to my friend, Tracy. She knew Tracy was having a hard time. I didn’t know why. So, Tracy gets up. She said, I came to this meeting today because I’m on my way to my husband’s funeral.

[00:46:52]

And she goes, and I had prayed for a sign from God that he was going to help me stay sober. And this is her language. Like I needed strength to stay sober this day.

 

She goes, our wedding day is April 23rd of 94. What is that? I don’t know what that is, but I was like, whoa, like that was so bizarre to me.

[00:47:13]

I said something, the exact thing that she needed to hear that day. She asked for a sign. I asked to be useful and call that energy. To me, that’s a spiritual experience. Because Spirit is like energy. Like everybody in the room felt it. It was a feeling, it was an experience.

[00:47:33]

For me, it’s more focused around energy. Like, that dynamic of the story that I shared with you.

[00:47:40]

Like, I was just open.

[00:47:42]

My heart is open. Help me to be of service, like to whatever it is. Um, and there was another person that was like, I need help. And somehow our energies, it’s like law of attraction stuff. So, it does feel to me, like, there was like, this master organizer that, that, like, orchestrated all that. So it’s just easier to just be like, this is, this is like a spiritual practice. I practice opening my heart. I practice asking for help.

[00:48:11]

And when I’m open, open minded, open hearted, like trippy shit like that happens all the time. And that to me is all I need. Like that’s enough. That’s spirituality in a nutshell.

[00:48:24]

Okay, can I ask you one more question? So, Step 3 made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

[00:48:33]

And I loved your reinterpretation.

And in the book, you said, practicing Step 3 with your sponsor. You completed it by praying together.

We got on our knees. Held our hands and said the step 3 prayer right out of page 63 out of Alcoholics Anonymous.

God, I offer myself to thee to build with me and do with me as thou wilt.

Relieve me of the bondage of self that I may do better. Thy will take away my difficulties that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of thy power, thy love, thy way of life. May I do thy will always.

 

[00:49:14]

So, when I think about “doing God’s will”, I think of that as the highest and greatest good for all involved. And I try to interpret what is the highest and greatest good for all involved, through my inner compass. So, it’s like this.

[00:49:29]

When I’m still and quiet, I, that’s when I can feel like the next, the next right thing, like it feels like if I can just allow my intellect to quiet and operate from like this heart level, then I can feel sort of feel my way into like the next right thing. I don’t actually need to know what it is because in the present moment.

[00:49:54]

I can be aware of other possibilities or other options that if I’m so focused on figuring it out that I think I know it’s going to be this way or that way, then I’m blind to all other options. What we know through science is that we have like this particular activating system. We have this belief and a presupposition that we know what we’re looking for.

[00:50:19]

And so, our subconscious mind will filter everything else out that blames the dynamic. And so, um, a lot of people just find it easier to think of God in terms of relationships with people because that’s kind of what’s familiar. But if we just set all that aside, it’s like, what am I feeling in this moment?

[00:50:41]

And what is the right thing?

[00:50:43]

I love, I love the spiritual experiences. And when, when I’m open minded and open hearted. I love those experiences. Experiences feel magical to me.

[00:50:56]

Tell us where people can find you, work with you, read the book, what you’re working on.

So, one of my favorite parts of the book was about recovery resistance. And so now, I’m obsessed with creating a community around helping people overcome internal resistance, because the only thing I do in moderation is recovery.

 

[00:51:16]

It’s like we all know what to do. But we don’t always do the thing. Like there’s this knowledge action gap. So, I created this free PDF that people can download, um, at innercompassprogram.com.

And it’s a worksheet that you can use to help yourself overcome resistance. So, you can start taking action on a consistent basis.

 

[00:51:35]

And it’s the actions that you and I both tell everybody to do. It’s the actions that are going to change your outcomes. Your feelings, all that stuff that’s that innercompassprogram.com. That’s the best way, but I do have SoberLifeSchool.com, which is sort of like the hub has links to the podcast, my coaching, the book.

[00:51:55]

Yeah. All the things. Yeah. And tell us again the name of the book and where to get it.

[00:52:00]

You can get it on Amazon. It’s the 12 Step Guide For Skeptics:  Overcoming Common Misconceptions Of A Path To Sobriety.

 

Thank you so much for coming on.

[00:52:10] Yeah, thank you so much.