If you’re an introvert it’s likely you’ve used alcohol in social situations to ease anxiety, be more outgoing and cope with large gatherings.

Surviving and Thriving As An Introvert Without Using Alcohol As A Social Lubricant with Meredith Hackwith Edwards

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

introvert, surviving, thriving, talk, drinking, liquid courage, without alcohol, social lubricant, feel, situation, sober, awkward, life, people, love, friends, conversation, thought, podcast, leave, Meredith, totally, met, energy, person

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Meredith Hackwith Edwards

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a buzz, how to sit with your emotions when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there. Today, we are talking about

 

surviving and thriving as an introvert without liquid courage.

 

My guest today is Meredith Hackwith Edwards. She’s the producer and host of Meredith for real the curious introvert on podcast platforms and YouTube since 2019. Meredith was named one of the podcasts magazine 40, under 40 in 2022.

 

 And when she’s not researching her next podcast guest, she’s hanging out with her husband at the beach, buying plants she doesn’t need or planning her next trip. She believes in being last in the right direction, and that everyone should meet people outside the algorithm. And Meredith, you and I actually met outside the algorithm in person in Denver.

 

02:10

But we totally did. And I so loved that we were able to do that.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  02:14

Yeah, so I had been on merit to the show. But then we happen to both be going to the Podcast Movement conference in Denver, which was really cool. And she was cracking me up because she’s a total introvert. And Gill and I were hanging out floating by the lazy river just because you know, when you don’t drink, you don’t always want to go to all the huge boozing parties. And so, you came down and hung out with us.

 

02:41

Yeah, it was so fun. That’s so true about conferences. And I think networking in general, I noticed when I moved from Nebraska to Florida, I was attending, you know, a lot of networking events. And they were all, you know, happy hour related, which kind of makes sense. It’s part of our like, cultural tradition. Although, I’m not sober. I’m not a big drinker. And it was interesting, the intersection of my hatred for small talk and the pressure to drink. I mean, it’s a real thing. I can really sympathize with your audience members who are introverts and sober.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  03:19

Yeah. And a lot of people sort of discover, once they stopped drinking, that they’re not as extroverted as they thought they were. And, you know, I know that was true for me, where when I was drinking, you know, one of my super skills was that I could talk to anyone about anything like my husband joked about it all the time, you know, to the point where like, I’d be talking to somebody and I have to go back to him and be like, do you know this person’s daughter’s in college, and she’s studying XYZ, and he’s like, this, but I’m still that way. But I need more quiet time. I need more time to recuperate, and I also need less time with other people.

 

04:05

Yeah, I think what you’re talking about is being an outgoing introvert. Okay. Do you feel like that identified like that? I think that’s true.

 

Yeah, yeah.

 

Yeah. And I am too, and I’m a performing introvert, right. So, like, it’s not that weird for me to be on mic or on camera, or whatever. And I’m a class clown introvert, things that you would never put together. Like you put me in a room, especially God, if it’s a freaking classroom, and it’s like, I can’t help it immediately. My first goal See, everyone will have, you know, usually at my own expense, but I actually think that that’s an introvert superpower is, you know, thinking about the feelings of others. There’s a real cross section between people who are highly empathetic, and also introverts, so I don’t think that it’s totally weird that an introvert would also be a performer in the way that it’s not all about her like, it’s not all about me, but it’s about adjusting your delivery in order to make other people feel comfortable. And I think like, that’s the first thing that people who are sober, who are introverts should think about is what’s, what’s your superpower? You know, everyone has one, maybe you’re awkward, but maybe you’re delightfully awkward. And, you know, maybe it creates like that sense of relatability with other people, or maybe you’re highly sensitive, or maybe you’re funny, or, you know, maybe you’re such a good listener, whatever it is, mine is I’m able to build rapport really quickly with people, when I meet them. Like, I used to joke that I’ll meet you. And then within the first five minutes, we’ll feel like we’re long last grade school friends, that’s kind of my deal. And those are real assets. And I think it’s important to find your superpower as an introvert because it’s so tempting in a world made for extroverts, for us to feel bad about ourselves, right? Because it’s just like the world is set up for networking meetings, and, you know, group projects.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  06:16

Yeah. And you know, it’s funny, I think, when you said sort of your hatred for small talk intersected with things I’ve found, since I’ve stopped drinking, it’s not that I connect with people less, I actually tend to connect with people more. But I have almost no interest in small talk. Like, even when I go to big parties, I want to talk to one individual and go really deep, and then talk to a different individual and go deep. Like my husband describes it. He works at a private school. So there lots of like, Parent Teacher events. And he has to speak on stage, and he’ll come home and I get this because he’s totally drained. I’m like, Oh, how did it go? And I was like, he’s like, yeah, there were a lot of mouth noises. That’s how I feel. You know, getting back for the podcast, so fun, but I’m like, Damn, that was a lot about the white people.

 

07:11

Yeah, gosh, that’s so true. And it most people when they drink, they’re not more interesting. They just think they’re more interesting. And it’s when you’re sober, and everyone else around you is not. It’s extra draining. As an introvert, I have met extroverts who find it entertaining. And I have spent some time thinking, Gosh, this, this could be entertaining. But why do I not find it entertaining? And the answer is because these people are fucking dumb. They’re acting dumb. And they’re saying dumb things. And they’re repeating themselves, and they’re really close to my face. And I don’t want to have these conversations.

 

Additionally, I’ve learned when I moved here, that when I was attending some networking events, and then I would just like go out with friends, that people who are really drunk, maybe you do have a good conversation with them, guess what, they don’t remember it always the next day. And that’s really discouraging. So, I have found also that these kinds of conversations as an introvert are less fulfilling, because I’m, you know, they get deleted essentially the next day. And so, I think it’s important for introverts to not hallucinate. And I say that. I say that because I don’t think you’re on other drugs, folks. It’s because I think we waste a lot of time hallucinating about what it is that we’re seeing, like, when I was at these gatherings, and I would talk with people, or they were talking, really at me, and I thought, Gosh, this isn’t interesting. But am I imagining that this isn’t interesting? Am I imagining that I don’t feel fulfilled by this? Am I imagining that I don’t enjoy this. And there’s nothing wrong with, you know, I don’t want to throw shade at those people. But I just want to lift up the introverts out there who are trying to live in a sober way that you don’t need to feel bad about what’s happening inside of you, because it’s actually science. Introverts are made are born, they’re not made, right. So, I interviewed this guy called Steve Friedman. And so, I have to give him credit because he talks about the difference in your brain between dopamine and acetylcholine. Have you heard this?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  09:38

I have not. I’m very interested.

 

09:40

I had never heard it either. It’s so interesting. It’s episode 171 of my show. If anyone wants to go listen to it, he talks about being a corporate introvert and thriving as the corporate introvert. But he said, you know, we need what we need. And people who are extroverts need more dopamine, dopamine, is that winning? Chemical write the, when you check something off the list, that’s dopamine when you win a race, it’s dopamine when you, you know accomplish something, it’s dopamine, when you have a thrill of a new something or other, that’s all dopamine. And some bodies allow that to stay longer. And some of them clear it out faster. And when you’re an extrovert, sometimes it clears out faster. So, meaning, you experience the good feeling. But then your body sweeps it away very quickly. And so, you need more of it. And so, extroverts need more dopamine, and they go out and they, they cannot be around new people. And they have to have novel experiences and, and that’s what they need. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

 

But introverts need the other thing called acetylcholine. And that’s the calm chemical, the feeling of being in a forest, sitting by a bubbling Brook, sitting at your house, in the quiet, reading a book all those things that introverts stereotypically, like, we need more of that. Him saying that, changed how I view myself because I thought that it was something that I could overcome, almost like a disability, I thought it was kind of aligned with my occasional anxiety and ADHD, but it’s not, it’s just kind of, it’s just kind of the deal. And I think when you stop hallucinating that introversion is your deal, then you can use your superpowers that you have as an introvert, which is noticing other people picking up on body language, being especially compassionate, compassionate, or empathetic, and then you feel better about yourself, you know?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  11:44

Yeah, yeah. And I think I mean, I’ve talked with clients who I mean, going out in the world, once you stop drinking, is, by definition, sort of an anxious activity. And it’s because we’re changing this huge thing about us that we’ve been worried about that means so much to us, like drinking, not drinking, what’s my identity? Without it? What will people think are there the stereotypes, so you’re so in your head about that, and then you also, if you are not an extrovert, the little things that don’t even involve alcohol can feel awkward, right, like talking to people at the bus stop at school pickup at the watercooler at work.

 

And so, one of the things that I would am excited to have you share are just sort of hacks to how to interact with people to embrace being an introvert, but also sort of smooth out those rough waters.

 

12:48

Yeah, I love that. And I definitely want to talk about what it means to be an introvert. A lot of people self-identify as an introvert.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  12:55

Can we start there? Because you also said, a couple of different types. And I was like, Ooh, are there more types? I mean, maybe flavors type ones, right?

 

13:08

So, introvert, by definition, is just about energy and energy out. And so, I’m going to talk about awkwardness in a second. But when it comes to energy, when it comes to introvert, NIS introversion, it’s the baseline is all about how you gain and lose energy. So you might be an introvert, if you lose energy every time you go to the mall. If you lose energy every time you go to a baby shower. If you gain energy by cleaning out a closet, as your special activity for Friday night, you might be an introvert if you enjoy one on one time with a really good friend, where you have just lovely reciprocal, intellectually stimulating conversation. So that’s the baseline.

 

So, it’s important for people whether you are an introvert or an extrovert to kind of check in with yourself and go, Okay, I just did that thing. How am I a one meaning catastrophic depletion of energy, or my attend completely recharged, because you might not be aware of where you’re at on the spectrum to begin with. And it’s important that just because maybe you feel shy, doesn’t necessarily mean you’re all you’re an introvert, but you could be introverted and shy. So that’s the baseline. But I do want to talk about being an awkward introvert because that happens to so I think that awkwardness it can also be funny, right? It can be a superpower, but I have some tips for everyone. So first, I want to share a personal story where I did not follow my own tips. I was at a podcast conference. This is unfortunately a little read. It was. We were at, or a no, no. It was a different one.

 

Yeah, you were at the PodFest. And I don’t know, I think it was like my first conference in several years. And definitely my first one since the pandemic quarantine. I used the wrong name when I introduce myself like I messed up my own name. Yeah, that happened. And then I was sitting at a table

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  15:18

I just need to know. I think, I took like, I got Meredith, Right? Thank goodness to low bar. And then my last name is legally AdWords. But I go by with AdWords for us because it’s more findable, right, and it is my maiden name. So, it got squished together. And I was like, at Hackworth. And he was like, That’s unique. And I’m like, I have to leave now. Awkward.

 

And then, I was sitting at a table with some other podcasters. And there was this guy next to me. And he was. We were talking. He was super fun and cool. And I was like, so did you fly all the way from Australia? Or are you a US resident? And he tilted his head, and he leaned forward, and he opened his lips. And before he said, anything, I was like, Oh, my God, he’s not Australian. He’s like, I’m British. And I was like, I’m a shithead. I’m not. They’re totally different accents. And I was like, so proud of myself that I was going to, like, get it right.

 

So anyway, I just want to tell everyone, it’s okay. But I interviewed this other guy named Rob Baedeker. And he does like improv and comedy and stuff. And so, I have to give him credit for these tips. My show is not about being an introvert. But it’s a I do interview a lot of people who have high contrasting aspects of themselves just like us, like, we’re outgoing. But we’re also introverts.

 

And so, Rob was one of those guys. And he said, to be less awkward in social situations that you should ask yourself, How can I make the other person look good? Isn’t that so brilliant? Because when you’re thinking about yourself, and you’re being awkward when you’re, you know, feeling awkward, what you don’t realize is, no one is thinking about you as much as you are thinking about you. And if you just put yourself in a position of be outward facing towards that person and make them feel comfortable, then you’re going to naturally be less awkward, because you’re not thinking about where to put your hands. But to say next, he also said, ask for stories instead of answers. Because something that you were alluding to a minute ago is people who are sober and introverted, may find themselves at a loss for words, like one person says, you know, I’m a physician, and you go, cool. Like, you don’t know what to say, right?

 

This happened to me. I remember the first time I met an attorney, and I was so intimidated by her, I was only thinking about myself, because I only have like a quarter of a degree from a community college in a bad neighborhood in Omaha, Nebraska. That’s my educational background. And I don’t know what I thought she was going to do. Maybe quiz me about the legislative branch. I’m not sure what I thought, you know, what she ended up asking me about? Was my eyeliner. Yeah, so we are more alike than we are different. And so, when you’re talking with someone, get allow them an opportunity to tell you a story. So, if you meet someone, and they’re like, Oh, I’m a doctor. You could even say, Oh, wow, I bet you have some great stories of crazy things people come to the ER with, and then just see what they say. And I think that’s it’s like almost like you’re bouncing it a ball throwing the ball back in their court conversationally or even as simple as, what did you do today? You know, that’s asking story or asking for advice is another one, too. I like, I’m wanting to go on a vacation, but I’m on a budget okay. I heard you just came back from Wyoming. Can you give me any advice on cool places to see and I think that will create more of a natural back and forth.

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®.

 

The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  19:14

One of the things that one of my very good friends does she is a full extrovert, but I picked it up from her. It’s whenever she meets someone or goes on a trip somewhere and is asking someone it’s not. She’s like, Oh my gosh, I need to find what the best thing is to do here. Imagine it’s your birthday. Where do you want to go? And like just that gets them into like, it’s just a question, but it’s as opposed to like, you know, so just making small talk. You know, it’s interesting, like I said, I am more of a one on one person, which people think is weird because they think I’m super extroverted. But, for example, with this podcast, it’s just me and you, like I’m you Just talking to you, I am much more awkward in big group networking stuff. And I was, you know, I was sitting at soccer practice, oh my god, okay, separately, my daughter may not meet me, actually, she totally made me go to her ice cream social at her elementary school. Here, pal. Literally, it was like, the worst hour and a half of my life. And I told her eight more minutes, and she took off for like, 20 minutes, and I was like, I’m going to kill you. Because, you know, you’re just standing around awkwardly smiling and trying to make small talk with other parents with no context. So super painful there. But then I was sitting on the sidelines of my dark daughter’s soccer practice, which is better, right? Because you’re not looking at each other.

 

You can talk about the children. You can make fun of the children, that’s always good to bond over. This woman, you know, in talking about foot and mouth, she’s pregnant. And I was like, oh, is your daughter nine year old who’s on my daughter’s team, your only one? And she’s like, Oh, no, this is actually going to be our sixth. And I was like, what? I mean, I was like, wow, that’s cool. You know? Anyway, we started talking about this. And, and then she said something really funny about going on The Amazing Race. She and her best friend. Like the amazing anyway, this is way too long this story. So, we started talking about that. And then I mentioned she had a great story. And then I mentioned Oh, yeah, she asked me what I was like, Oh, I’m actually a podcaster what kind of pot Oh, I do sober thing. She’s like, I’m sober. I quit drinking right after this surgery, I lost 180 pounds, my husband. So, we’re anyway, now we’re like, so bonded. We’re like, emailing back and forth about the amazing race and the people on it. But never would have happened. If we’d been standing around an ice cream social, like none of this would have come up. Which is just like, I think it’s okay to say those awkward events are not your jam. And you would rather get to know other people where you’re both viewing something together, and commenting on whatever that is. Does that make sense?

 

22:14

It totally makes sense. Because you’re talking about the difference between nose to nose, I like to say nipple, nipple, nipple to nipple or shoulder to shoulder, right. Because if you’re lifted your Nipton nib like that’s like, oh, the pressure is on. That’s why I think it’s important for people who are introverts and who are sober, to always have a plan going in. Like, if you can’t avoid the ice cream social at your kids school, you want to have a Swiss Army knife of questions. And I recommend every time you’re in a situation and you say something really clever, like a question. Or write that pitch down in your phone in your notes. Don’t be ashamed, put it in your phone. Another way to have a plan going into a social situation with people that maybe you’re acquaintances with on a social media platform, look them up on that social media platform and see what’s new with them. And you’re like, Okay, Amy just got up a new puppy. Again, it’s the third puppy this year. Stacy just announced that she’s pregnant with her 800th child. Well, there you go. Now you are armed and ready for the social situation. And you don’t even have to talk about yourself. There’s this phenomenon that happens when you’re talking with other people, and you make it all about them. Like say the whole conversation, they’re just telling you about themselves. They leave that interaction going, you know that Casey, she’s a real interesting gal. And even though you literally said nothing about them, so go in with a Swiss Army knife of questions or like interest points that you can talk about. And I would say go in with a Swiss Army knife of like responsive questions, especially in a networking event, like we’re talking, we kind of keep bringing in these professional situations too, because that’s where the pressure is really gone because you represent your company or your worth represent your business, right? And so anytime anyone tells you their profession, you can always say, Oh, what do you specialize in? Girl? I’m telling you, it works for a doctor.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  24:15

Oh, what do you specialize in? I’m a lawyer. Oh, what do you specialize in? I work at Microsoft. Oh, what do you specialize in? Damn, I like that. I actually weirdly find mom to mom events way more stressful than work stuff. Because for some reason work stuff you have context. Whereas I always feel like I’m stepping around a minefield at like my daughter’s elementary school because you don’t want to be like where do you work and then there’s the whole like, oh, I stay at home versus I have a job so then I’m like, Oh, do you like I literally tripped myself up with like how to ask that without insulting anyone or making them feel like I’m it’s like it’s totally fucked. up. So, I like the idea of just being like, you know, having some questions to go into that. But I’ve also some of the moms are like, Oh, I’m a nurse, and I’m like, oh, cool, you know, but I could use that. What do you specialize in? That’s cool.

 

25:18

Yes. And you can always add, acknowledging what the other person has said, like, it sounds like data to data. So you want to avoid saying, Oh, God, I could never do that. Like that is never ever I repeat, that is never ever, ever a compliment. It does not matter what your profession is, like, if you’re a doctor. Oh, I could never do that. Like I always thought because I always got that because I was in sales for like two decades. And they were like, Oh, God, I could never do that. And I always was like, why did why are people compelled to say that, and I thought it was just because of my profession. And then I met the attorney I mentioned. And she said, Man, I always am so resistant to tell people I’m an attorney, because they go, they make an attorney joke. Or they say, Oh, I could never do that. Same thing with ER doctors, or military or a stay at home mom. Oh, I can never do that. Not a compliment. So instead, replace it with Wow, that sounds like really important work. Yeah, that’s a good one. You know what you can use that for every single one that sounds like really important work. And immediately, whatever is going on in the background of their brain that is making them feel insecure, or they’re kind of holding their breath, waiting to see what you’re going to say. They’re going to go, their shoulders are going to drop, and then you’re going to start to have that real connection.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  26:46

Yeah, yeah. And the other thing, just so people know, is if you’re talking with someone about not drinking, I mean, I’ve done this. I’ve been absolutely terrified to tell someone this. So, there was a mom, I knew her son was my son’s age. She worked. I worked like we lived in the same neighborhood. Like, I was like, I want to be friends with this woman. Because, you know, in our neighborhood, we have a ton of like, 60 year old retired people, right? So, I was like, Ooh, potential friend. And she said, Oh, Casey, do you want you know, I know, this really cool group of women, you’re going to love them. We have a book club. You should totally join us. We drink lots of wine. And I was like, a deer in the headlights. You know, I had been sober for about two months, and completely and totally freaked out. Like, I was talking to my husband, saying, Okay, what do I tell her? Do I tell her? I don’t do book clubs. Do I tell her that night doesn’t work? Even though she hasn’t told me what night it’s. So finally, he was like, you don’t drink? Why don’t you just tell her you don’t drink. And what I was scared of is she would not think I was cool. And she would not want to hang out with me. But at the end of the day, I said to her, Oh, your book club. Sounds amazing. Actually, I just stopped drinking two months ago, I found that it was just making me really anxious, and I wasn’t sleeping well. But could we hang out and have coffee or do brunch sometime.

 

I, now, in terms of like writing stuff down, I literally had to write down what I was going to say. Like, you think, like, I’m cool. And confidence, I was not cool and confident at all. And what I loved was her response was, oh, good for you. Actually, I have to watch how much I drink, too. And I’ve definitely taken breaks at times, it makes me anxious as well. And that just brought us so much closer, because then when I saw her at the school, or the neighborhood like she knew this about me, and she had in no way rejected me. Instead, she’d like found this common ground. It just, it was really nice. So, putting yourself out there sometimes can actually bring you closer, even if the person is going, oh my God come over, we’re going to hang out and drink all this wine.

 

29:15

Yeah, I think you’ve tapped into one of the superpowers of introverts and that’s displays a vulnerability. And it may not bring you extroverted friends, but that’s okay. Right? Because in for the context of the conversation you and I are having, we’re just trying to survive socialization. So, we’re not trying to be friends with everyone. We’re just trying to make it through the events that matter. Right.

 

And so, I think for the events that matter, the best thing to do is to be a magnet for those right people and by disclosing the right amount of information, or asking the right question, that is like a key that will unlock that right vibe between you and that person and then you won’t feel awkward and Eagle for Get there’s other people in the room, and it will be a lot smoother of experience. So, I’m so glad you shared that story.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  30:07

I think there’s a place for that like self-deprecating vulnerability, not saying that saying you’re not drinking is that but going to, you know, a conference like we were in being like, oh my god, I never know what to say to people in this type of thing. Someone else would be like, mean, Dieter, this is awkward, you know? Yeah, even Barney, I think one of my favorite quotes says, stop worrying about what everyone else thinks of you. Most people don’t even know what they think of themselves.

 

30:37

Oh, I like that. It’s so true. Yeah, that is so true. I just thought of another question that might work for both the stay at home mom, at the ice cream, social event, and networking event? Or like other professional atmosphere is the question. What projects have you been? Have you been working on lately? Because yeah, because if you’re a stay at home, mom, you’re probably working on some projects. That project could be homeschooling your children or fixing something in your home. People never ask, stay at home moms these sorts of questions, because I don’t know it’s invisible work sometimes. And if you can ask that right question, that person will feel seen no longer invisible, and they will love you. And you will be off the hook for a conversation for at least another 10 minutes as they explain all of the projects that they’ve been working on.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  31:37

Yes, yes. I love that. That’s the other thing that I’ve found when you tell people that you’re not drinking, if you just say, Oh, I’m doing a health challenge of not drinking for 100 days, 30 days, whatever it is. People do love to talk about themselves. So, if you say that, they might be like, Oh, I could never do that. But they will immediately launch into like, Oh, but I got a peloton, or 20 years ago, I ran a 10k or I’m doing a juice cleanse. Like everybody wants to talk about either what they’re doing what they should do, or what they did once in history.

 

32:15

I love that. That’s so true. Yeah, yeah. The virtual ribbon they got for running a 4k 5k I don’t even know if there’s no 4k Right? Yeah, how much I run. I was a soccer goalie, so I didn’t have to. Oh, good for you.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  32:32

I did while it Lila is a soccer goalie right now. So yeah, it’s great because we get to eat as much as we want and boss other people around because our job is to fill out the goal box and direct our other you know, the other players on the field. So yeah, it’s a good scenario.

 

32:50

Nice. Well, we were trying to get Lila to pick up the ball with her hands and pounce on it. So we told her to pretend it was we have a giant white Siberian Tabby named Blue who likes to dash out the front door. And so she pounces on him and grabs his chubby little body and we’re like, that ball is blue tried to stay you go grab. So, I love that.

 

33:15

I, I’d love to talk about if it’s okay with you, like Surviving and Thriving as an introvert in daily situations, because we’ve talked a lot about like these stranger situations.

But sometimes it’s really hard to thrive with your family and thrive with your coworkers. And I imagine be sober at the same time, especially if those were all situations where you needed a little liquid courage to get through. Right. And so especially as an outgoing introvert, I have this struggle a lot because, you know, because I am practiced at have I have a huge Swiss Army knife of questions like I’m a pro.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  34:02

Is there any way  you could like, give me a list? I want to talk about your daily thing. But could I put some of these in the show notes globally?

 

34:08

Yeah, I would love to I already have them written down somewhere. So, I will find them and give them to your people. Because I’m serious. Like there is no shame in doing homework before you go to a social event. I think of it as setting an intention as it’s like a form of mindfulness instead of being flung from one thing to the other. You’re going Okay, the next thing is I have to talk to Aunt Rebecca for an hour. And she can’t hear half of what I’m saying, and she thinks I should be married and I don’t want to be married or you know what I mean? Like there’s all these really awkward situations and you feel defensive and you just you’re watching her guzzle down her third glass of wine and you’re like that’s really cool. Let’s talk about everyday life family. But workers, how do you get through it,

 

35:02

you get through it by first setting that intention going in with a Swiss army knife. So, nothing different there from talking with strangers. But the difference is, is you have an opportunity to build in boundaries, you can’t really build in boundaries with strangers, and not really. But with family members, you can and coworkers you can so for coworkers, we’ll do that example first. So, like I’m an outgoing extrovert, and I have very rarely worked in an office in a traditional job setting. But when I have, it’s really challenging for me, because office environments are very much set up for the extrovert for the person who loves group work, who loves office gossip, etc. But part of how you survive and thrive as an introvert is you got to plug those energy leaks. And energy leaks are gossip, social media, and small talk, right? Those are like three big ones. And so, small talk at the office is just a killer, and it just drains all your brain juice. And so, I recommend explaining to your coworkers that you may not look like it because you’re outgoing and funny, but you’re an actually an introvert. And that means that social situations get chosen very carefully. And that you would love to participate in their such and such baseball game, whatever the next, you know, you know how those work offices do like the bonding activities.

 

Yeah, I roll. But like you would love to participate in that. So, like, Cushing it with the positive, and then in the middle be like, as an introvert though, I’m going to need some time to recharge. So, just don’t mind me if you see me eating in my car alone under the shade tree most of the time, because I really want to join in and be included in this baseball game that everyone goes to once a month. So positive at the beginning positive at the end, the truth bomb in the middle about what you need, and how you plan to get it. So that’s my tip is communicate what you need, and how you plan to get it. So, at work, maybe you shut your office door, maybe that’s enough, maybe you have to go into nature, like again, that’s checking in with yourself, seeing what drains you, or what gives you energy. For a lot of introverts nature is a fantastic energy giver. So maybe you take a walk in the park over your lunch break. But whatever it is, you have to communicate it to those coworkers. And then in a family situation, you want to communicate how long you’ll be staying. Because you can’t really, I guess you could take a break. But if you take a break, you may get into like other habits, like people taking smoke breaks, and maybe that’s not the direction you want to go. But maybe you also suggest activities that are more conducive to one on one conversations, like a family walk, girl, not everyone’s going to want to go on your family walk. Do you know why that’s perfect? Is because you’re exactly, you got rid of half of the people. So now you got your favorite cousin’s going on a walk with you. And you have a lovely time. Right? So, but shoulder to shoulder to, which I like.

 

38:14

Exactly. And maybe you have to leave early. And so instead of, you know, just dipping out early or announcing that you’re leaving, and then everyone complains, or your spouse complains, let your spouse know, hey, aunt, Rebecca is a little extra. And I don’t like to talk about why I’m child free, or why I’m not married, or why I’m gay or whatever the reason is right that it’s exhausting to talk with Rebecca. And instead, you say, you know, let’s have a pact that we will leave at 8pm. And then you’re leaving before everyone gets totally trashed, right. And so maybe the conversation is a little bit more giving a little bit more or a separate call. And but the key is to communicate what you need and how you plan to get it.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  38:58

Yeah, I love that. And one of the things that I two thoughts came up to me when you were talking about that. One is that a lot of us don’t realize it. But alcohol sometimes is a way of putting this barrier between us and the rest of the world. Even when you’re drinking. I mean, you’ve got that obvious disconnect. Everything is sort of slowed. Like someone will say something, it will hit your consciousness, a couple beats later. Everything feels further away. Your reflexes are slower. But even when you’re hungover, there’s this film around you. And so that’s why when you stopped drinking in early sobriety, it feels like you’re walking around without your outer layer of skin. That is real. It’s like every one of your nerve endings are exposed. But what that means is you need to put that bubble around you we call it building your sober bubble, but you still need some kind of a barrier between you and life. Just the endless world of stimulation that’s out there. And so, for some people, it’s going to bed early. For some people, it’s in a party, or even just normal life, going to the bathroom, and like posting in a sober group or texting your best friend.

 

For some people, I loved what you suggested, Meredith, because it can be going for a walk, I suggest to my clients when they go away for the holidays with their family, when you’re actually staying with a group of people, if you can rent a separate place, because you can be with them all day, but you don’t need to be with them from like, 8pm to midnight, or 6am to 8am. So separate places great or, and, you know, you can position it in a way like, Hey, mom, or mother in law or husband, so excited for this vacation. One of my goals for my time away is to be able to take an hour long walk at sunset every day. So would love to plan that in that way. You’re not asking permission every day. And they can like schedule around you. But you know, you have that break of alone time.

 

41:13

Alright, love that. That reminds me of some of the tips that you shared in the episode that we made together on my show about early friendship and sobriety and how you talked about like, pretend you have the flu, like that first two weeks, like you just need to not be around anyone because you’re not contagious. But like kind of act like you are. I thought that was so brilliant. And I had another thought that it just left me. But I love those tips about announcing to your family. This is Oh, I know what my, what I was going to share is I think as women we look for permission weigh more than we need to. And I do think that at times, it is helpful to simply pretend you’re a man. And the in your mind. You know, I was just, I was laughing because it was that Taylor Swift song about the man and I’m like, oh, yeah, this is total.

 

42:05

Do you know I’m not familiar? You think? Well, I have to look it up.

 

42:11

Okay, I’ll have to look that up. Yeah, well, and I think, you know, that might be hard for some people, because I feel like when God made women, he’s like, here’s a uterus here some guilt, have fun. You know, we just feel bad about everything. And we want to care for everyone around us. And those are great. But it can become disabling in a situation where we’re trying to make positive change. And you may not be mentally able to pretend like you’re a man because your mind goes thumbing through the catalogue of all men you’ve ever met, and then you are exhausted and confused, and therefore do nothing.

 

So instead, I suggest that you pick one man that you know, and maybe you even just met him once. And he seemed really confident and self-assured or whatever, just any really any man will work. Ask yourself, let’s say his name is Dave, what would Dave do in this situation? Because that really brings it home? Like would Dave apologize for times for wanting to go on a walk during sunset during our family vacation in Maine? No, he would just go. And that’s true. That’s true of men. Like they genuinely generally don’t ask for permission or apologize as much. And I think there’s something for us ladies to learn about from observing that like we can implement some of that for ourselves. And the ramifications of that in our mind are way exaggerated way exaggerated. Yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  43:38

Yes, yeah. And if anyone wants a cheat sheet on boundaries, I actually was just texting someone today basically giving her the three part formula. I’ll put it in the show notes. I have this guide that’s called The Nice Girls Guide To Saying No. About how to say no, in a very, very, very specific way, like to anything. So, thank you so much for thinking of me, that sounds amazing. And then like eight options for like, no, basically, it doesn’t sound like right now. I’m, you know, I’m being really protective of my calendars. So, I have time for x. I mean, there are lots of options, and then you think them and compliment them and wish them well at the end. So, I’ll link to that because it’s hard to do, but it’s also really easy to do.

 

44:29

I think the hard part is just saying it right just like getting the words out and making it sound like your own words.

 

44:35

And then it’s like shut up, right like you’re talking and yeah, and I don’t I’m totally not religious but I’m like it wasn’t Jesus it was society that’s taught us to take this healthy portion of just kidding, but Oh, seriously and remember to for people who are you know, like they really just like Oh, I like that idea but oh my gosh, that’s really scary sounding. Remember, every time that you set a boundary in your world, you are helping another woman do the same thing you are giving permission to somebody else who’s watching you to do the same thing. And so, for people who are extra timid, they’re probably also extra empathetic, and caring. And so sometimes you can leverage that Mama bear witness to do something brave that you for others that you wouldn’t do for yourself. And I think that’s another superpower that’s important to keep in mind.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  45:33

And that’s also something that you can do in your own marriage or with your own mother or with your own kid, as you stop drinking, because by definition, a lot of us drink to tolerate the way our lives have been set up or to reward ourselves for doing all the things and when you stop drinking, you have to change some of those arrangements. The other thing we were talking about before that when you were talking about everyday life, and you mentioned ADHD, I did an episode on ADHD and alcohol. And one of the things they talked about that was interesting was yes, people with ADHD often have low dopamine, which is why they’re very attracted to alcohol. But at the same time, they also are really overstimulated by everything in their environment. I think for introverts, that’s probably true as well. Cannot talk enough about how fabulous noise cancelling headphones are, or earbuds or ear plugs. Even with your kids running around, you’re cooking dinner your kids are screaming, put those in, it helps.

 

46:48

Oh, that’s such a good idea. That reminds me of a time that I was overstimulated. And I just looked at my friend and I said, I’m overstimulated. And thankfully, she’s a mental health counselor. She goes, I see that. Would you like to leave now? And I was like, Yeah, but and that was a social situation. And that was a social drunky situation, too. You know, it was a beach party. And it’s one of those things where we get there at five or six in the morning, we stay until 10 At night, and I knew that it was hot. Like we happens once a year. We do it once a year. But I, you know, stopped drinking a lot earlier than everybody else. And I’m an introvert and around 3pm I felt my batteries go to the red zone. And I was like, Oh no, the red zone. Because for introverts, their biggest fear is catastrophic loss of energy resources, right? Like this is a huge driver and our behaviors and our decisions. And I looked around me and you can’t leave the island. Like there’s the traffic is such like you just there’s no option. And we are outside. There is no clothes tent. Everything’s open. There are 1000s 10s of 1000s of people on the beach. And this party I need to know.

 

Yeah, it’s a lot of fun. It’s Pensacola Beach. And it’s blue angel weekend or Blue Angels Saturday, specifically where the Blue Angel jets perform on the beach. And it’s a lot of fun. And you know, it’s great. It’s outside the beach. But yeah, I was just I don’t know what happened. I just got done. And I think that telling, explaining to your close friends and family, what being overstimulated means when you’re not overstimulated is a great hack, right? Be like, Hey, guys, guys. Okay, we’re, you know, 75 days till Christmas, we need to have a talk. This is what it means to be overstimulated. And maybe you want to have a codeword, that’s okay to, like, you know, in case that’s helpful, like, you know, the, the cat has jumped the fence, whatever, you know, but, but if you at least explain what overstimulated means, then in two words, you can communicate to your support team at that family gathering or at that word gathering what it is that you’re feeling on the inside, and then what they should do, but you got to do it before that moment happens, because otherwise, you’ll have a breakdown.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  49:11

Yeah, no, that’s so true. And I think that applies for almost everything. I love that we’re having this conversation, right before the holidays. And it’s not just going to stay with your parents or your in laws or, you know, holiday dinners with family, like there are a lot of office parties that are hard to deal with. And I always talked to my husband before and he like, kind of knows now to take care of me, which is funny because I talk to everyone, but I go to these events with all his colleagues, and he’s sort of the boss so that’s awkward. And all the parents in sort of, he’s sort of the employee of the parents. That’s awkward, and some of them are in my son’s class and so he You know, definitely like comes up to me always keeps my drink filled, you know, who wants is like, hey, when do you want to leave? We’ll make the rounds. But especially when I first stopped drinking, that was really helpful for me. Like, I would just tell him in advance. This might be hard for me. And so, he was like, I got you covered. You know?

 

50:21

I love that. Yeah. And I love the idea of like checking in regularly. Because I think that a mistake that romantic partners make is that they will look across the room at the other person and go, Oh, they look fine. Right? Yeah, but especially if you’re an outgoing introvert, you’re always going to look fine. Because you know how to mask, right? You know how to, like, make it look like you’re having a good time. So, it’s important that your person, like maybe three times throughout the night, Hey, how’s your how’s your battery looking? You’re like, Yeah, I’m yellow. Like, remember those security codes that George Bush did after 911? Like, maybe you adapt those?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  51:04

I feel like Brené Brown does something like that she gave this talk, I’ll have to look it up about it sort of the way that she and her husband’s sort of code word. I wouldn’t be embarrassed if it’s not her. But um, yeah, 80% sure it was her about like, what’s your battery look like? And you know, if someone’s at 80, and someone’s at 20, they’re like, alright, we’ll all take over vice versa. But if they’re both at like, 15%, they’re like, alright, we got a we got to figure out how to take things off the list, because we’re both depleted, but it is nice to sort of have that code word. The other thing I would say, and you know what’s interesting talking about this, regardless of if you’re an introvert, or an extrovert, I feel like what we’re talking about is, maybe everyone’s a quote unquote, introvert or feels like it in early sobriety. Having a get, you know, escape plan. You mentioned at that beach party, there was no way to leave. I think, hopefully, that’s a unique experience. So going into big events or social events, it helps to have a conversation with whoever you’re going with, like, I may want to leave early. So, are you okay, leaving with me? Or should we drive to cars? Or should I drive home because I’m not drinking, and you take an Uber afterwards, like, just, I love using my kids as an excuse to leave even though my kids are like, Mom, we’re totally cool, stay and I’m like, shut up.

 

52:37

That’s what I love about the sober community. You know, I feel so fortunate to have connected with a few of you. And I feel like the level of intention that you bring to your lives can be applied by anyone. And it’s really a way to live in a more present way. It’s, it seems much more eyes wide open, then masking your emotions, and sugarcoating communication, and not setting intentions when you go places. I just want to encourage anyone who’s newly sober, that might be feeling like their sobriety is a disability. It’s not a disability. I think it’s a more beautiful way to live a more intentional way to live because you are present. You’re not sugarcoating communication, and you’re not shrugging at, you know, situations you’re not, you know, brushing off decisions, you’re going in fully present fully human and feeling more emotions, probably than you did when you were not sober. But I think that’s a more human way to live. And so, I just don’t want anyone to feel like that’s a disability, just because most of the world lives differently, doesn’t mean that you are disadvantaged. You know what I mean? It’s, I think it’s a beautiful thing.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  54:07

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that it makes you more present and more interesting, and you’re going to attract higher quality relationships. It’s okay, if not everyone is your people. It’s okay. If you’re not everyone’s person. I, you know, I say this as a as a recovering, I guess, people pleaser, who hated it. Like nothing is more uncomfortable to me than thinking that someone doesn’t like me. And all that means is that I need extra reminders of things. And so, I used to have up on my bulletin board. It was it basically said, you know, you may be too much for some people. Those are people, you know, those just aren’t your people. You’re going to find your group and it’s okay. I always tell my daughter like you don’t not everyone has to be your best friend. You have to be nice to everyone and not be mean or exclude them. But you’re allowed to have people that jive with you that you really enjoy spending time with, like, that’s positive. But it doesn’t have to be everyone. And, you know, we have conversations with like, oh, well, this girl always goes with that girl. And I’m like, yeah, they probably get each other really well. And that’s okay. You know?

 

55:33

Yeah, I totally know. Yeah, it’s, you know, trial and error. If, for some reason, we’re totally fine with trial and error in romantic relationships. But when it comes to friendships and social situations, it’s like a crushing blow to our soul. It’s like, that’s, that’s, that’s okay. Not everybody is a fit. And not everybody isn’t a fit for every situation, like, just because you connected with the mom at the soccer field, doesn’t mean that she’s your BFF in every situation, she be your huge rugby or soccer mom, friend. And that’s okay. You know, there’s friends that I only serve with those friends that I only go to like, we have a street party here in Pensacola called gallery night where they block off the whole street. And there’s all these art vendors, and it is a very extroverted, loud situation. But it’s a lot of fun. And, you know, there’s certain people that do that with, I have people that I do make stuff with, there’s craft friends, it’s okay to have pockets of friends around certain activities. So just because one friend doesn’t convert from one activity to another doesn’t mean that failed. I mean, like super basic friendship rules. But I could see where when you’re newly sober, how you described, how you feel it like everything is exposed, like your nerve endings are just on edge. How is such a good description, I could just see it in my mind. I could almost feel it.

 

Yeah, if that’s your state at the moment, every little thing is probably going to hit you as though you are an eighth grade girl, you know what I mean? And so just know that it’s okay. Not every friend converts in every situation. And just take one little situation at a time, I like to approach things almost like from an anthropological view, like, wasn’t pristine bit of data that works for yourself, and other people. And it makes it scientific, which is somehow easier to digest.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  57:35

Yeah, and I think a lot of us, like, you know, they talk about people sort of stop growing or maturing or whatever it is, when they when they start drinking, I don’t necessarily think that’s true. But I do think that when we start drinking, we automatically take that shortcut, instead of devising other ways of interacting or coping or moving through awkward situations. So, I had a lot of sort of social anxiety, especially around talking to guys in high school, didn’t really drink in high school at all, I went to a boarding school and was terrified of getting kicked out. But I got to college, join the women’s rugby team went to a ton of keg parties. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is amazing. And took that way of socializing or not being awkward through to when I was 40. So, 18 years old to 40, versus developing all these other coping tools. So, I think it is something that you kind of need to relearn. And it’s actually very, very positive.

 

You don’t want to be 80 years old and getting drunk to interact with people. You know, you can learn it at 18. You can learn it at 28. You can learn it at 40 like I did but use these hacks in these tricks that Meredith is going to give us. I’m going to list all her all her questions there in the show notes. I think that’s going to be really amazing. I’m going to use them myself. And just remember that it’s okay. To leave situations early. It’s okay to go make your rounds interact, and then follow up with people later. Is there anything else you want to share with us before we leave, I love all your questions and hacks that you’ve given us.

 

59:28

Um, I would just say be patient with yourself trying to take yourself you know, like really connect find other introverts to connect with because the same the thing that you appreciate about other introverts is the thing that other people appreciate about you. And it can help you see yourself in a new light. Yeah, I think that’s what I would leave people with.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  59:48

So, two questions for you. When you said that at the end, I was like, Oh my gosh, yes. So, one of the projects that my coach, not my sober approach and another life coach I know had me do in early sobriety was what’s called an essence project. And what you do is you text like 20 people that you know, from different parts of your life. So, a coworker who you don’t talk to that often or I mean, I texted my mother and my sister, those were the two I was most nervous about my husband, my kids, my best friend from high school, whatever. And you say, Hey, I’m doing a project, can you give me three words you think of when you think of me? And so, if you ask 20 people, you get back like, a lot of words, right? 60 words or something. And there tends to be a definite theme in them. You know, whether it’s warm, caring, determined, brave, thoughtful, compassionate, smart, thorough, whatever it is, and you’ll be able to see like, the positive essence of who you are through the eyes of other people. And I think we always think of the worst possible things about ourselves. And when you see someone else being like, Oh, when I think of you, I think warm, compassionate, and thoughtful. Just keeping that in your head. Like, I’m not awkward and weird. I’m thoughtful. You know.

 

1:01:16

I love that. Yeah, I love that you got to have more of that to outweigh those moments where you feel bad about yourself, especially when all your emotional nerve endings are out. bared for,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:01:32

to the universe. Yeah, exactly. And then the last question is, do you have any books or things you recommend people who identify as introverts should read I have, the one I know is quiet by Susan Cain, but I didn’t know what you thought of that.

 

1:01:49

I’m going with the stack of books behind me. There is a book called here to make friends by hope Kelleher, which is pretty good, because it’s, it helps you figure out what you want in friendships. And it brings a new level of intention to your interactions that you have and the people you want to attract into your life. At the end of each chapter, there’s really it’s like a worksheet. So, I think for some personality types that might really track really well. I treated each question at the end of the chapter as a journal entry. And that really helped me figure out, you know, how I want to move through the world in terms of my friendships and relationships, especially in the second half of life, I think you view your time differently, or that you may, may be viewing it very soon, very differently, it’s a little bit more precious, which is I also think the great thing about being sober is you can view your life through the lens of, it’s finite, right, and that makes everything more special. And so, I think that’d probably be a good book. I’ve got some other What was the title of it again?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:56

Sorry, what was the title of that book here to make friends?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:03:01

Here to make friends who was at by Hope Keller her? Okay, here to make friends by Hope Kelleher? I’ll definitely check that out.

 

1:03:08

Yeah, yeah. And there’s another one too, about networking. I just can’t think of it at this moment. But it actually had a phase called actually, I remember it now. The book is called how to talk to anyone. Don’t remember the name of the author. It’s a yellow cover with red letters. And it’s very helpful for those. That Swiss Army knife of questions and starters.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:03:34

Cool. Well, I’m excited also to get your list of questions that people should know. Where can people follow up? Listen to your podcast, find you.

 

1:03:43

Yeah. My podcast is called Meredith For Real: The Curious Introvert. And I explore taboo topics through nuanced conversations. They’re the stuff that you can’t google with much success. And even if you could, you might not be able to do it very well. Or you might be too embarrassed to Google it. So, we cover topics How to Make friends as an adult. How do I know if I’m an alcoholic? Why do we still circumcise babies? Why is male anxiety stigmatized? So, it’s like all that kind of juicy stuff. You’re like, yeah, like, how are movie sex scenes? Not a little bit real, like stuff like that. So, it’s, it’s really fun edutainment, and it’s everywhere. Like you would normally listen to a podcast, but the social media platform that’s best to keep in touch with me on it’s probably Instagram. I’m @meredithforreal.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:04:35

Awesome. All right. Thank you so much. This was great.

 

1:04:38

Thank you.