SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Drinking, games, pressure, perfect, alcohol, memoir, blackout, blackout drinker, recovery, drink, rock bottom, chug beers, sober, you don’t have to drink, moderate, moderation management, moderating, sobriety, early sobriety, quit drinking, stop drinking, sober curious, writing

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Sarah Levy

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

[00:01:21]

Hi there.

Today, we are talking with Sarah Levy, who is the author of the book, Drinking Games. It’s a memoir in essays exploring the role alcohol has in our formative years and what it means to opt out of a culture in meshed in drinking.

She is a graduate of Brown University and her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Cut, Vogue, Time Marie Claire cosmopolitan glamour bustle among other publications. She lives in Los Angeles with her husband and son.

And I just finished reading this book. I’ve heard so many great things about it and finally reached out to Sarah because someone in my member group posted just raving about it and how much she related to the book.

[00:02:10]

So, I wanted to have you on. Welcome.

Well, that’s so nice to hear. Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah. I just spent the last week reading your book and I resonated with so much of it, but I wanted to ask you about one part.

[00:02:27]

In the beginning, because it really related to my experience when I was drinking heavily and you talked about this idea of effortless perfection, you talked and when I was in high school and college and in my early twenties, I totally got that. Can you talk about that?

Yes, definitely for me growing up.

[00:02:52]

In a relatively competitive environment, there was a lot of pressure that I internalized to get good grades, do a lot of extracurricular activities, get into a top college, right? So those were the goals, but we weren’t supposed to talk about how badly we wanted those things. We were just supposed to be naturally excelling and all these different areas and achieving.

[00:03:20]

All these things, but not act like we were trying to, and I use this example in my book of a classmate in when I was in high school in my senior class, who had applied early decision to an Ivy League school and was telling people that she didn’t. Even have any of her applications and she didn’t know where she was going to apply.

[00:03:40]

And then, when she got accepted, she was like, oh, by the way, I’m going to the school. And I mean, on 1 hand, like, now, I think back and I’m like, oh, maybe she had boundaries and it wasn’t anyone’s business where she was applying. But I think, it was just indicative of this broader trend, which was almost like secretlyworking really, really hard, but acting like it was just coming naturally and coming easily.

[00:04:04]

Right? Like, you take a test and you’re like, Oh, I think I failed, but actually, you know, that you aced it and you studied really hard and you did great. And so that sort of followed me throughout high school. And then, when I went to college, I just felt like, I was surrounded by people who were brilliant and who just seemed to be almost just naturally absorbing material in class and being able to speak to different topics.

[00:04:27]

And I just felt like I, I cared too much and I tried too hard. And I am a perfectionist and the effortless part of effortless perfection sort of has always. Evaded me.

Yeah, no, I mean, that fed in a lot to my drinking as well. I mentioned before we jumped on that. I went to a boarding school in Connecticut.

[00:04:47]

That was like, super competitive and in theory, very Prestigious, I guess, and it was almost like a rule there that, like, you could never be too rich, too blonde, or too thin, like, that’s how it felt as a short brunette, and it was, it just felt like you could never quite be good enough, and You know, that’s kind of hard to cope with.

[00:05:13]

I was, my mind was constantly running. I was constantly insecure about everything. And like you said, like going overboard, trying to get straight A’s, but pretend that I was about to fail. And once I got to college and once I started drinking, I was like, Oh my God, this is incredible because it was like the first time I could switch off my brain.

[00:05:38]

Yes, that’s exactly how I felt.

[00:05:40]

That effortless cool girl, attitude that I felt like I couldn’t quite achieve naturally, I felt came to me when I was drinking. I look back now and I’m not sure how cool I actually appeared when I was wasted and blackout, but we’ll talk about that later. But, those initial experiences drinking, yeah, it was like the volume was turned down on those voices in my brain that were always telling me like, You know, it’s not good enough.

[00:06:08]

I’m not good enough. I’m not doing enough. It doesn’t look perfect on the outside and yeah, I think that drinking for me gave me that kind of calm that I had been searching for in, all these other areas.

[00:06:24]

Yeah and I love that you mentioned like it probably didn’t look that way on the outside because I like you was a total blackout drinker and that was almost my goal like I would drink hard alcohol chugging it with the goal to get blacked out as soon as possible because then in my mind like anything could happen because I wasn’t so uptight and worried about it, but Obviously, it was hugely problematic.

[00:06:53]

You talk a lot about being a blackout drinker. I mean, I blacked out the first, the second, and the third time I ever drank on purpose. But like, how did that look for you? Yeah, you just reminded me even in saying that it felt like anything could happen when you were drinking. You know, it reminds me of this expression that I’ve heard now being in recovery.

[00:07:14]

That drinking starts off as magic and then becomes medicine and then becomes miserable. And that magic, for me, was very real in the beginning. I didn’t know what a blackout was, and I didn’t set out to drink to blackout the first few times that I got drunk. I just thought that that was what being drunk was.

[00:07:36]

You know, I was a teenager who wanted to impress the guy that she liked, and he was drinking at a party, and I wanted to seem cool, and so I drank too, and I blacked out, and I didn’t know that you could be awake and having conversations with people, but have no memory of what happened the next day, and that’s what a blackout is, for anyone listening who doesn’t know, because I have met a lot of heavy drinkers who have not blacked out before. Who have maybe browned out where some of the details are a little hazy, but they’re not missing huge chunks of their memory the next day.

 

[00:08:15]

So I didn’t know that that’s not how everyone drank, but it became my default setting when I drink. I really lose control over how much I’m going to have and I don’t really have a deep understanding of why it is other than I think of it as an allergy that when I start to drink, I just like lose the ability to choose how the night is going to end.

[00:08:38]

What that usually looks like is I have one drink and that becomes two and three and four and I love the way it feels and I want, more of it because it feels so good. And then, I end the night, passing out eventually, but even before that, just in a blackout state, not remembering the conversations that I’m having or how I got somewhere, right?

[00:08:59]

Like really scary. Situations now that I think about it, but I just truly thought that, you know, for a long time until the last couple of years of my drinking. I really thought this is how people drink. And this is what it means to party and have fun.

[00:09:16]

Yeah, yeah, and I don’t know if this happened to you in college as well, but when I went to school, I was on the women’s rugby team and it was almost like a crash course, like a masterclass in problematic drinking.

Like, the goal was to get blackout drunk or to chug or to do. We did power hours where you did like a shot a minute for an hour and it kind of, like you said, I thought that’s the way drinking went, certainly in college. And once I grew up, my husband was like, I kind of thought you’d grow out of this, but we had a conversation once, and he was like, it feels like you just drink until it’s gone, or you pass out, you know. He’s like, why do you do that? And I was like, I just never want this feeling to end, and I feel like if I keep drinking, it’s going to go on longer.

[00:10:09]

Which of course, it just ended the night more quickly.

[00:10:13]

Right. You pass that point.

[00:10:14]

There’s almost that invisible line that you cross. And I never knew where that line was. I always had such a hard time locating it, right? Like, was it after 2 drinks? Was it after 4? But once I started drinking, like I said, I was like a blip had been switched in my brain and there was a different voice. Like, even if before starting the night, I intended to only have a couple of drinks. Once I started, I just wanted more and that’s the irony, that it’s not more fun. It’s just messier or it’s a quicker path to passing out and the night ending.

[00:10:49]

But yes, I mean, similarly to what you described, like my book is called Drinking Games, like we played a lot of drinking games, right? Like, flip cup and beer pong and like, those games are designed to get drunk.

[00:11:00]

I didn’t realize, though, that like some people were having water in between, like, chugging beers or, or slowing down after, you know, playing around. Like, I just, Continued, continued, continued, and when I have conversations like this and talk to other people who are sober now, or it can sort of, I forget that, like, we’re connecting on this because we share a similarity, which is we had to get sober because when I’m talking to, I’m like, yeah, it is normal.

 

[00:11:31]

She did it. Everyone did it right? Like. But then I can have a conversation with another friend who’s like, yeah, no, like we weren’t going as hard as you were. Like we, yeah, we were playing a drinking game, but like we were splitting drinks, like, you know, like versus I would have one beer in one hand and then like a mixed drink in the other, right.

[00:11:54]

It’s just a different, a different experience of it.

Yeah, I remember, like, well, you hang out with a bunch of drinkers too, or at least I always did, but I remember once I stopped drinking, realizing that even my big drinking friends didn’t drink like I did and when I was drinking a lot, when I was sort of worried about it and trying to justify it, I remember saying to one of my Best friends who drank a ton like I did and we always were a lot of trouble together, I was like, Will you drink a bottle of wine a night?

[00:12:29]

And she was like, No, I don’t. And I was like, But when we get together, we drink a bottle plus a night. And she was like, Yeah, I don’t do that every night. I was like, Oh, fuck. Okay. Yeah, and I think it is so normalized, right? Like, for me, growing up, I saw drinking culture glamorized and, you know, TV and movies and pop culture.

[00:12:51]

And I’m not sure that it’s like that today, actually. I think there’s just a lot more dialogue about being sober curious and people choosing not to drink, which I love. But yeah, I remember watching like Gossip Girl and the OC and, you know, seeing these characters drinking. Sex in the city, right? It was just, it was cool and it was romantic.

[00:13:09]

And so, there was that. And then right being in college and being. With people who work hard, play hard, it was just everywhere. I didn’t know a soul that, you know, was sober or sober curious, even. And now, when I look back, I actually, there actually were people who didn’t drink or didn’t drink as heavily, but they just weren’t like you said, you know, you hang out with drinkers, you hang out with people who would like to have fun.

 

[00:13:39]

And even if my friends weren’t drinking the same way that I was like. We were getting drunk, you know, we were, we were still going out. And so, yeah, so it was just, it was all around me. I didn’t know that there was any other way to even be.

Yeah, one of the things I was really interested in your book, which I didn’t necessarily expect is, you go through all these different aspects of life and social commentary. So it seems to be you know, your first thing. One of the first things I underlined when you were talking about that first party. You said, I was a good rural follower because I was scared to be anything else. And then, you kind of go through not only drinking but talking about diet culture and insecurity and fears about your career and sort of discovering who you are after drinking, which so many of us go through. and I think a lot of us don’t realize how tied up in our drinking is that sort of like deep down insecurity about where life is going to turn out or who you are if you’re good enough.

[00:14:52]

Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think at my core, the reason I drank, I mean, yes, like, drinking was fun, and I think it’s also just, like, important to acknowledge that because I think sometimes, you know, we spend a lot of time talking about how what it looked like at the end and why it was so problematic. But I always like to say, like, I wouldn’t have kept doing it for as long as I did had it not been fun.

[00:15:18]

And that’s what makes it so complicated and so challenging. I think for someone to get sober. So, yes, it was fun, but I think, more than that, the reason I drank the way that I did was I just didn’t feel like I was good enough in, in so many ways. And, you know, I go through these different areas in the book that were affected by my drinking and then my decision to get sober.

[00:15:43]

And, you know, right. One of them is body image and diet culture. I just always felt like I didn’t look. Right. I didn’t, I wasn’t pretty enough. I wasn’t skinny enough. I wasn’t, I didn’t have the right clothes. I didn’t dress like, you know, it just, and, and even if I did, even if I got the right shirt or I got the, you know, the boots that everyone had, like, the problem was that I was still me wearing the boots or the shirt, you know, it was just this, like, Core, I guess, wound or feeling that like I was not enough and that like people would just people could just tell somehow. And that, my body, my physical appearance like that was a big area for me, you know, that I really tried to control and manipulate with food and exercise and when I was drunk, I didn’t have to worry about that.

[00:16:30]

Like, I felt like I was pretty enough. I felt like I looked You know, cool and or whatever. And then another area that I think has always just been so tied to my self-worth is like, what do I do? Who, you know, what is my identity? And so for a long time, that was school. That was being a good student. I’m going to a good college.

[00:16:51]

And then it was like, well, my job being, I think in my early twenties, I had this sort of. Like quarterly of crisis, which sounds sort of silly to say now, but it really was the 1st time where I didn’t know what I was supposed to do next. And I had friends who were going to law school and going to medical school.

[00:17:07]

And I didn’t have a calling like that. Like, I just, and it wasn’t for lack of trying. Like, I took the LSAT. I took the GRE. I was looking at all these different grad schools and programs and like, just tell me what to do. Tell me what the answer is, you know, so that I’m on the right path. Like, should I be a consultant?

[00:17:24]

Should I do, right? Like, just what, where do I belong? And, you know, Graduate School is very expensive and not a decision to make lightly just because it’s what other people are doing or what you think you should be doing. And so I was living in New York and eventually found my way to working in marketing and in social media.

[00:17:42]

And I always wanted to write. I always loved reading and dreamed of writing a book, but I had no idea how to do that or like what story I would even want to tell. And so, it didn’t happen for years, but I just felt so lost and I think felt very untethered and for a long time, even though my drinking was pretty messy, at least, you know, I could focus on my grades.

[00:18:11]

I could focus on making sure that everything looked good on the outside and in my. In my early twenties and in, in those, you know, a few years before I got sober, I think I just felt like I didn’t know where my career was, was really headed. And that was, that was really scary. And then, you know, I kind of pulled it together and had this job, you know, I was working at a startup when I when I did eventually get sober.

[00:18:36]

And I think at that point, what happened was I. Felt like actually things look good on the outside again, and I do have this job and I do have this like seemingly responsible career path or impressive career path in place and it still wasn’t, it still didn’t fix it. I was still I still felt like I wasn’t good enough and I was still drinking.

[00:18:57]

So, I mean, fill in the blank, right? There were just so many different areas that were affected by how I felt. And then the way I drink, you know, it’s funny. When you were talking about all of that and how you felt, I mean, I know I felt the exact same way. I’m sure a lot of women listening to this can relate to that.

[00:19:20]

I was laughing because my first job out of college was a consultant trust me. That doesn’t make you feel any less insecure when you’re doing it.

Yeah. But nobody talks about it, right? I haven’t, I didn’t really talk about any of this stuff with my friends either, unless I was drunk and then somehow crying about what was, what was terrible about my job or whatever, or until I got sober, you know, it’s that whole idea of like effortless perfectionism, where you, you, put all of this on and until you start talking to people, honestly, because you have to, because you’re not drinking.

[00:20:01]

So, you’re like, fuck, I got to deal with this. Somehow, you don’t realize that everyone around you kind of probably feels the exact same way. And yet you’re doing everything you can to cover it up.

Yeah, I mean. I think back now to how afraid I really was to be vulnerable when I was drinking and, you know, my friends, like some of them are still like my best friends today really didn’t know how much I was struggling and in sobriety, I’ve been able to be more open and honest with people and I find that.

[00:20:36]

You know, I don’t know if it’s a product of getting older that we’re all kind of just like, actually, we don’t know what we’re doing. And we’re sort of all more open with each other, which is really nice. Or if I’ve just like busted the door down by writing a book about it all. And people were like, wait, what?

[00:20:50]

Like, you felt this way? Like, let’s talk about what’s really going on moving forward. I don’t know. But I do feel like, yeah, I’m more open with people in my life now and, but back then, yeah, I could only really open up to someone after, you know, a bottle of wine between the two of us and only at that point would I be like, I feel really lost.

[00:21:12]

Like, I’m, I don’t know what I’m doing. And I don’t know, it’s, we see that in movies and TV, like the girl who’s like, I’m a mess, but like, she’s not a mess. Like, she’s still really has a great apartment and really cute clothes and like meets the cute guy on the subway. Like, she’s not a mess. And so, I think it’s really hard to truly feel like you are a mess and you don’t know what you’re doing and to be open about it in real time.

[00:21:38]

Like, I just find it so vulnerable. And even like. If you really think about it, you know, me writing this book, like there’s a happy ending. Like I’m being open and vulnerable about the fact that I was struggling, but like, only because I’ve, you know, I, I’m on the other side now. Right. Like, it is really hard to be in the thing and to be like, I am currently in this moment, really struggling and having a hard time.

[00:22:04]

And alcohol just like offers such a convenient. Way through that. Yeah, like you and then no one holds you to what you’ve said when you’re like a little weepy after having too many martinis, like it’s just it’s so embedded, like, you’re completely unable to get out of that place of feeling like a mess or feeling like a victim because all you’re doing is drinking and recovering and worrying about it.

[00:22:32]

And so, it feels like there’s no forward movement. You’re just kind of surviving. Yeah, I mean, that’s exactly how I felt. Like when I Did get sober. I had just turned 28 and I felt like I was watching my friends move forward. They were getting promotions. They were getting, you know, in relationships, moving in with significant others, getting engaged.

And I felt like I was on a hamster wheel. I felt so stuck. I felt like my life just was.

[00:23:00]

The same thing, you know, week after week, rinse and repeat. I wake up early, go to soul cycle class, go to the office, sit at my desk all day. Think about like, am I doing a good job? Do people like me? Does my boss like me go to happy hour?

[00:23:16]

You know, have a couple drinks, go on a first date with someone that I met on a dating app, not be able to like have any kind of real connection because I’m drunk and I don’t remember what we’re talking about. I don’t know who I am, let alone who I like and what I’m looking for and what I really want.

[00:23:31]

But I, I want those things. Like, I want authentic connection. I want to feel like I have a real purpose. I want to feel proud of the work that I’m doing. I want to feel. Like, I’m moving forward and I was just stuck in the same pattern, the same thing, you know, and it’s, it’s so hard to break that. And I think for me, I had done enough like research, I think. And Fact finding in that. I had been kind of curious about sobriety for a few years before I ultimately did stop drinking and I had gone 30 days and, you know, a few weeks here and there and, and then would just tell myself, it’ll be different now.

[00:24:17]

It’ll be different now. And, you know, this time around, I just had this moment where I was like, it’s not different. I always tell myself it will be. Here I am, yet again, another weekend spent hungover on my couch, you know, cancelling plans and feeling like life is going on around me and I’m missing it, and I don’t want to feel this way anymore, and I knew it was the alcohol because I had just, I don’t know, I just knew.

[00:24:45]

You know, I just knew it was the alcohol, no one sat me down and said, like, you need to get sober. There was no intervention. No one sent me to rehab. And I hadn’t even had any of, like, those big consequences that I thought I needed to hit to have a real problem, you know, I didn’t, hadn’t been arrested.

[00:25:02]

I hadn’t, I wasn’t drinking before work, but I just knew in my gut that drinking was the problem. And that the way that I felt the blackouts, the hangovers, the anxiety, like, that I was just like, if I can remove this and then see how I feel I, I just, I think I might get some relief. And I could not believe how much better my life got, you know, and how quickly things started to change just from removing that one thing.

[00:25:33]

Yeah, same. Although it does, I mean, it took me many, many years of worrying about my drinking and trying to keep it in my life before I was even willing to try to remove it completely, even though I knew that Like you said, like alcohol was the problem. I think I spent a ton of years not even being able to have the conversation about whether alcohol was a problem because I so desperately didn’t want to give it up that I was like not honest with anyone.

[00:26:08]

I was so busy overcompensating and defensive and trying to not pretend I wasn’t brutally hung over. So, you know, it was, it was kind of, I mean, it was truly a mess. Yeah. I think I was like, desperate for it to be the problem because I knew that. I, I remember years before I got sober, like I would listen to podcasts like this one.

[00:26:34]

Like, I was so drawn to sobriety. I was so curious about it. I wasn’t ready until I was, until I had that like gift of utter desperation that kept me willing and, and, you know, allowed me to stop. But I, I do, I think it’s almost like. Looking at like before and after pictures of people and feeling that like shiny hope, I think I was drawn to sobriety because I just felt like maybe this would work.

 

[00:27:00]

You know, I had done therapy. I had, like I said, I exercised. I was always on a different diet. Like, I did juice cleanses. Like, I really wanted to feel better. And I think like, yeah, sobriety was last house on the block. Like, I, I definitely didn’t want to do it, but I really wanted it to work. And I don’t know. It was like, I put it in a  drawer in the back of my brain until I was ready, but I kind of always secretly hoped that it would be the thing that would work.

Yeah, no, I, I mean, it definitely, I noticed the black and white as soon as I kind of got away from 30 days and 60 days and 100 days, I was like, oh, my God, this is what feeling healthy feels like this is what Joy feels like.

[00:27:53]

This is what not constant anxiety and doom feels like. I mean, I’ve been living in it for years I didn’t even realize how low the bar was that I had set.

Yeah. Yeah, I felt the same exact way. It was like wait, this is what sleep feels like. This is what waking up rested feels like, you know I remember a friend saying when I was newly sober that. That sobriety feels like waking up in clean sheets every day.

[00:28:21]

And I loved that. Like it, I think about it all the time. It really felt like that, you know, after just always feeling like I had like last night’s makeup smudged and like, I, you know, had a headache and was like shoveling greasy food and like, you know, like I, it just felt like, oh, this is what it feels like to wake up and not hate yourself and not feel sick and be able to go for a walk and get fresh air and pay attention to like the leaves changing colors and appreciate, you know, getting a coffee with a friend, like, just really simple, small things that I hadn’t been able to notice. Because I was so wrapped up in the cycle of being drunk and not noticing anything or being hungover and just being in like a hell of my own making because my hangovers were so bad because I was poisoning myself.

[00:29:18]

Yeah, totally and, you know, I thought 2 things were interesting that you talked about in the book 1 was that when you kind of told some of your friends that you weren’t drinking 1, it wasn’t a big deal. You mentioned something that someone was like, oh, Sarah’s not drinking and this other friend doesn’t eat carbs.

[00:29:38]

Like, yeah. You know, was really interesting to me and yet you also said that you kind of hid your sobriety for like a year like you tried to not have people notice that you weren’t drinking when you were out like, is that right? And can you tell me about that more? Yes, so I told my best friends. Probably within like a month, maybe.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®.

 

The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course. 

 

[00:30:06]

Yeah. Within like that first month, month and a half. Mostly because I was afraid that it wouldn’t stick if I didn’t tell people that, you know, people closest to me and I just didn’t know how to fake it with them. Like, we were at dinner with, you know, 4 or 5 girls. It was, it would have been obvious if I didn’t drink.

[00:30:22]

And I just really wanted to be done and I just knew like if I tell them that it’s real and they yeah, they didn’t care. I was afraid to tell them. I thought they would think it was weird because drinking was just a big part of how we socialized and it still is around like I went to dinner with some friends recently and some of them had wine and some of them didn’t like it’s still on the table, but I just, you know, at the time, like, no one was getting pregnant. No, there were no, like, breaks that other people were taking for any other reason. It was just like, we’re 26, 27, if we go out to dinner, people are drinking. So, I just felt like I had to tell them if I wanted a shot at sticking to it. Outside of those that were, like, closest to me and, like, my inner circle, I was way too insecure about The decision to talk about it.

[00:31:14]

I felt like even with my closest friends, like they didn’t ask me a lot of questions about it. They didn’t make it a thing and they just were kind of like, okay, yeah. Like, so it’s like, like I say in my book, like this one’s on a diet. This one’s not drinking like this one’s going to get engaged soon. Like we’re kind of just all doing our thing.

[00:31:33]

And I think just accepting each other and where we were at, but I just. And I just knew that if it was, if I was telling other people outside of that circle, there would just be more questions, you know, like, yeah. And I wasn’t ready to answer them. And so, for that first year, I very much tried to hide it.

[00:31:52]

I would go to bigger parties, birthday parties or engagement parties or things where there were a lot of other people and like take a shot of water. I would like to ask the bartender to fill a shot glass with water so that I was, you know, I acted like I was drinking or getting a seltzer, making it look like a vodka soda, like just little tricks to hide it because the thought of someone saying to me, like, wait, you’re not drinking just felt like I felt like it would be a spotlight on me.

[00:32:18]

And I couldn’t imagine, you know, and now when I talk to people who are, you know, in early recovery and they ask about that. I always just say, like, no one cares about it as much as you think that they will. And something as simple as like, yeah, I’m taking a break or I’m, you know, want to cleanse or it’s not feeling good.

[00:32:37]

Like, no one cares. And back then, I think like it was, it did feel very different culturally. Like I said, there was no, like, so being sober curious was not a household term. So it did feel like people years ago, like it’s really changed.

Yeah. It’s changed so much. I feel like since I really noticed a shift, like coming out of the pandemic, like 2019, 2020, 2021, like it felt like it really started to shift, but this was like 2017 and there were no mock tales on menus.

[00:33:10]

There were no like, so it just, it did feel like people would just naturally have questions and I just, I wasn’t ready. And so I hid it, I kept it a secret. And then I started writing about it, which was like, The opposite of keeping it a secret was like, I wasn’t just telling people in my life. I was telling people on the internet.

[00:33:27]

And it actually is kind of funny now, if I think about it through a different lens, like that black and white mentality was actually still there in the way that I kind of came out as sober, which was like, I’m keeping it a secret from everyone and no one can know to, I’m actually like. Changing career paths and going to write a book about this and telling everyone, you know, people who haven’t seen me since high school now know that I don’t drink because of social media.

[00:33:54]

So, that was an interesting sort of juxtaposition, but, yeah, I think it just felt really scary to think about telling people that I wasn’t drinking because it just felt different and I didn’t want to be different.

Yeah, I was terrified. It was so funny because I was terrified that if I actually stopped drinking that people would think I had a drinking problem as opposed to me, like, tripping and falling down after a business dinner where I was like, oh, yeah, there’s nothing to see here, you know, so funny how our brains work.

[00:34:26]

Right? Like, felt more embarrassing for me to think about saying to someone I don’t drink, then it would have been. Be in a blackout and throw up on myself in a public place and like, not remember conversations like, no, actually, that’s embarrassing. Like, not drinking and remembering what you said and having your wits about you.

[00:34:47]

Like, that’s, that’s great. Like, but there’s nothing to be and it is cool to realize that like, nobody cares as much as you do, or is so fixated on what you’re drinking or not.

[00:35:00]

You know, some people give you trouble if they’re really fixated on their own drinking and you like enabling that but yeah, I was so tied up in my head because I was so worried that I had a drinking problem that, you know, and so focused on, like, trying to control it that the idea of, like, dating out loud that I was no longer drinking went Everybody knew me as a drinker.

[00:35:21]

I was like, this is going to be like a red flag above my head. Like, has a drinking problem. Yeah, and it’s all those like, like young voices. I think of like, my inner child. It’s like, if I think about wanting the shoes or the shirt or the things that all the other girls were doing, it’s like, okay, well, all the other girls were drinking. It felt like.

[00:35:44]

And so, the idea of saying, I’m not doing that anymore felt like, well, wait, what if they don’t like me? What if I’m not fun? What if I don’t have something to offer anymore? What if they just want to hang out with me? Because we all drink together.

[00:36:00]

It took time for me to believe them when they said that they didn’t care about whether or not I was drinking.

Sometimes I still have moments where I’m like, wait, you guys like me? Like you, you want to hang out with me? And not everyone does or did. And that’s okay. Some friendships did kind of fade when we weren’t going out and getting drinks. Anymore, but others got stronger. Yeah, well, you know, it’s interesting too is like, I once my biggest worry when I stopped drinking.

[00:36:38]

So, I want to talk to you about this, but you got sober younger in your 20s. I quit drinking when I was 40 with 2 little kids and I’ve been married for 14 years. So very different life stages. You made an earlier exit than I did, which was probably smart. But my biggest worry was that my husband would think I was boring.

[00:37:01]

Like, thought that it made us connect and get away from just being parents and work and all that. And so, I said to him, you know, after 30 days, I was like, what are you noticing? What’s different? And he was, he was sort of like, I was worried he’d think I was boring and he was like, our house is just much more peaceful, like you’re much less like resentful or irritated or overwhelmed and you wake up and you’re in less of a hurry and you’re less anxious.

[00:37:31]

And so, later, I was like, didn’t you feel I was boring? And he was like, babe, you weren’t that much fun when you were like, basically zoned out on the couch either. It’s not like you were fully engaged in what was going on, but you were talking about friendships. But in your book you talk really openly about actually losing a friend because of your drinking.

[00:37:54]

Yes, I had a very close friend. She was my best friend at the time, who was the only person in my life who really saw my drinking up close. And saw, you know, because I hid it from my parents, from a lot of people because everything had to look perfect and had to look good. And, you know, there’s like strategic things that you do, right.

[00:38:20]

You don’t go out with the same group. Like, 2 or 3 nights in a row or you kind of switch it up so that they’re like, oh, yeah, she got drunk, but that was just that night. And, but this 1 very close friend. I, I just couldn’t hide it from and we had had, like, a few nights where she had many nights where she had to take care of me a few, like, very bad nights in particular and she, years before I got sober, you know, sat me down and said, like, I have to take a break from our friendship. It’s just really hard. And I was so defensive and so resentful and I felt like, how dare she? How could she? She drinks, too. How hypocritical. Like, doesn’t she know that I’m going through a hard time and like, I need her support and, you know, and it’s like we were 24 at the time, maybe even a little bit younger.

[00:39:12]

And so, I look back now with so much compassion for both of us because that’s such a hard situation to be in and she didn’t know what to do. Right. What was she going to tell me to do? You need to get sober. Like, we didn’t know anyone who was sober. And I don’t know that I would have listened to her.

[00:39:25]

And so, that friendship ended. It’s pretty devastating for me, but it wasn’t enough to get me to stop drinking. And I always highlight that when I’m, you know, sharing my story, because I think it’s important for friends and family members to hear that, like, no one can get someone else sober unless they’re ready and want to, and I know how frustrating that probably sounds and is.

[00:39:57]

Like, I lost someone who was super close to me and it, I thought about it, you know. I, it definitely rattled me, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t enough to get me to stop drinking.

Yeah. And I think I just, I had to be done on my own in order to really like to make, the change. But yeah, that, that was really hard.

[00:40:26]

And I love what you shared about your husband and your marriage because. I had all these, like, ideas in my head of reasons I couldn’t get sober at a young age, and a lot of it centered around, like, this fictional, like, husband and wedding, you know, I was like, I can’t get sober young because I need to drink on dates, I need to drink when I get engaged, I’ll need to drink at my wedding, and, and the thing you said about, like, feeling like it helped you and your husband connect, I think is so, you know, It’s something that Ioften thought, like, I, I’ll need alcohol for that.

[00:41:04]

I’ll need alcohol to have that strong connection with a partner. And it’s just interesting to hear you say it back because it’s like, oh, yeah, that never would have changed. I think I had in my head at one point, like, I just need to keep drinking until I get married and I’ll stop because then, I’ll have been chosen by someone, so then I’m fixed, you know. But it’s, it’s like funny just to hear you say that because it’s like we all have the same thoughts and fears and insecurities regardless of like what life stage we’re in.

[00:41:33]

You know, you’d been married for years at that point and you’re like, well, what if he thinks I’m boring? It’s like, it’s just still that core insecurity. Oh, I was terrified to go on a date with him because our dates were always drinking. You know, we did all the like app bar crawls. I mean, every anniversary was wine tasting.

[00:41:52]

And I literally was like, what the hell are we going to talk about? What are we like? I did read it through like, okay, we’re going to go to a park and read books or we’ll go to a movie like it was, you know, it’s interesting how when you stop drinking, you almost have to relearn how to do everything without.

[00:42:13]

I mean, I drank it everything. So everything had an association with alcohol and. You know, all those conversations again, you know, you sort of relearn but the good news is that I found that almost every fear I had about what would happen if I stopped drinking didn’t actually come true, right? My husband didn’t think I was boring.

[00:42:39]

He thought I was more emotionally stable, go figure. And less of a bitch in the mornings you know. Got promoted at work instead of thinking that, like, they would think I was terrible because I didn’t go out to happy hours. Most of my friends, we got closer once I finally got honest because I was just hid between the like, Oh my God, I’m fine, but I’m so busy and then like, got drunk you know, so, but some of that I would never have believed unless I’d done the experiment of not drinking and push through all those moments that were so scary.

[00:43:20]

Same, and I think that’s why I used to listen to podcasts like this one and was always trying to like, listen to sober people talk about what their lives were like because I couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t believe that other people were not drinking and were happy and had friends and had relation romantic relationships and careers like it just seemed impossible. Like, I remember just being 26 and thinking, like, how, how will I ever be cool and, you know, friends like it just sounds so silly now when I say it, but it felt like just impossible.

[00:44:02]

So, what was it like getting sober? Cause I can see that, like, I know people who are single, even if they’re not younger and are very worried that, like, not drinking will be a liability if they put that on the dating apps or if they meet someone for the first time. And, you know, when I was It’s younger.

[00:44:23]

I mean, all my friends always drank, but when we were younger, it was very centered around bars and you know, dinners out. And once you have kids, it’s a lot more, well at least for me, it was a lot more hanging out at our house drinking.

[00:44:36]

Getting sober young was well, it’s all I know. So now, when I look back, I think, sometimes I think I wish I had done it earlier. Other times, I think, like, I can’t imagine doing it any earlier, like I needed all those years. You know, I, but I’ve met people who got sober at like 21, 22, 23, and I’m just like, that’s amazing to have had all those years to really figure out who you are and, and just be like totally free.

[00:45:08]

And independent and just be able to be like, so selfish and just focused on you and your whatever. Right? So, so sometimes I can think about that because I was 28, which is still young, but it’s like, I felt like I was so close to 30 and entering into this, like, other decade and feeling like some pressure about where my career was and when was I going to have kids and there was like a little bit of other external noise.

[00:45:35]

But okay, in terms of like, logistically, what it was like I just devoted myself to recovery really for the first, like, two years. So I had that. Like, I had the luxury of time, I didn’t have kids, I didn’t have a partner, I would go to work, and go to therapy, and go work out, and Hang out with other sober friends that I was making and just like kind of freedom to really focus on, like, who am I now that I’m not drinking and I say that in retrospect, because in real time, it didn’t feel like that at all. It felt like, oh, my God. My life is over. Like, I have removed the thing that was fueling everything. Like, I don’t know how to date. I don’t know how to go to parties.

[00:46:27]

I don’t know how to make new friends. I’m alone all the time. Like, and I always will be now, because I’ve, because I don’t drink. But, Actually, it was like this beautiful time where I was able to just get off that hamster wheel and like, figure out what is fun. Like, I remember in the very beginning, I was going to all the same places and doing all the same things.

[00:46:47]

I was going to bars. I was saying yes to every party. I was going to drinks. I was going on dates. And I was like, huh, I’m not really having fun. Like, I’m not sure what has changed. And it’s like, well, maybe it’s actually just that it’s not fun. And you were just really drunk. And then other things were really fun.

[00:47:04]

Like concerts were actually still really fun. I was like, oh my God, I love dancing and listening to music. And you know, this is really fun. And it’s great that I’m not in line at the bar for another drink. Like I can actually watch the show. So like there was like discovery of what do I actually enjoy?

[00:47:20]

And how do I want to spend my time dating was really hard because yes, there were people I learned quickly that it was best to tell someone up front that I didn’t drink before being at bar, a bar with them. My first few dates, I just sort of hoped like no one would notice and like, that’s just impossible to be on a date with one other person and like they order a cocktail and you order.

[00:47:46]

A club soda, like, they’re going to have questions. So I just started telling guys that I was talking to you know, by the way, I don’t drink and most guys didn’t have a problem with it. And we’re just like, cool. Some guys had questions, like, why don’t you drink? How long has it been? Do not drink at all.

[00:48:02]

And then, like, a small percentage. We’re like, not interested anymore. And that stung a little bit, but it was also like, great. Thank you for not wasting my time, you know, and we’re clearly not, not a match. But yeah, I think it just, my life stayed the same and, and then it changed pretty quickly.

[00:48:26]

A year and a half into sobriety, met my now husband and ended up, you know, we started traveling together a lot and we ended up moving. I left New York City. We moved to L. A. And so then being sober just took on a whole different, you know, my life changed. And so it took on like a different a different quality, I think early recovery, being in New York, being young was just really hard at first and then kind of amazing. And, you know, just like the best thing that I could have ever done for myself.

[00:48:55]

Yeah, I mean, you write about, you said, as, as I got further from my last drink, I got closer to my most authentic self, the one I buried in booze since I was 16. And that’s what I found. Like, I feel like I stalled out on my personal development or confidence or curiosity like once I stopped drinking I felt so much more self-assured in my decisions and like I knew myself so much better but you talk about like singing lessons and concerts and hanging out with your family and old friends like, that was my experience, too.

[00:49:42]

I remember when I first stopped drinking and I was within like three weeks. I went on a walk with my very best friends. We were roommates at boarding school and we were 16 and she, we live close. So, she’d seen me through all of my drinking until I was, you know, 40 and I went on a walk with her and I was like in tears because in early sobriety years, I was constantly in tears.

[00:50:08]

Yeah, yeah. And I was like, I don’t even know who I am anymore, like at all. And she was like, I feel like I finally gotten my best friend back. Like you were just gone. And that, you know, because we’d known each other since we were 16, you It like when you wrote that, it hit me really deeply. Yeah, I feel like really what it to answer your question, like what was like getting sober young, it was like reconnecting with myself.

[00:50:39]

You know, it was like all of those parts of myself that I had been kind of ignoring or pushing down because I felt like they were getting in the way of me. Seeming cool or seeming perfect, like just kind of came back up to the surface. And yeah, I write in my book about like going to karaoke and like doing singing [lessons.

[00:51:00]

Like, I love to sing and that was something I hadn’t done in a long time. And I’d actually like did acapella in college, but like. I was like hungover at like our concerts, like I couldn’t really let myself be there and enjoy it and you know, reading and then, of course, like writing, which is something that I always love to do.

[00:51:20]

And that was like, my most authentic self was journaling. And I hadn’t written anything in years because I was just like a cog in this machine of like, go to work and go hang out with my family. Friends and date and drink and, you know, and there was just space all of a sudden there was, I, there was like so much time in the day where I, I didn’t, I used to feel like the days just were going so fast, you know, and now it was like, oh, I can actually like wake up a little bit earlier and do something before I go to work or and so there was space to reconnect with my younger self.

[00:51:58]

And then, sort of start figuring out who I was now and who I, like, where I wanted to go. Yeah, you, so I was curious, you said that, you know, you were sort of like trying to go under the radar with being sober with everyone except your closest people, so they wouldn’t notice. And then you wrote about it in these publications, like, how did that happen where you went from, like, not wanting to tell anyone and then you were hired to write about it?

[00:52:31]

It makes no sense. I really didn’t plan it out. I was doing a yoga class when I was probably 10 months sober and I was lying on my mat at the end of class and I just got this idea for a story. It was weird. It was just like this intuitive thought that kind of came into my brain and I. I had been thinking a lot about dating and how it felt like I was having to relearn all these things, flirting and first kisses and things that I felt like I hadn’t had a lot of these feelings since high school.

[00:53:03]

And I felt like it would be interesting to write about how early sobriety had kind of reverted me to being like an awkward teen. Because I did, I felt like my like pimply braces self on these dates, but like I was. You know, an adult woman and I just sort of started like writing it in my head and I left the yoga class and I went home and it was like a Friday night again, like had a lot of time, right?

[00:53:30]

Had like, the luxury of like no plans and I just sat on my couch and opened up my computer and I just started to write this essay, and I reached out to an editor at the cut and, you know, pitched the piece and she responded like two days later, which felt like some sort of divine intervention and like a sign from the universe that this was the path that I was meant to go down because that does not always happened.

[00:54:00]

And since then, I have pitched many pieces that have either gone like unanswered or that, you know, the editor has passed. So, and from there, it just was like. It’s just kind of happening. It was like, Oh, my God, this is like my dream. I’ve always wanted to write and this is a publication that I love and really, you know, respect and they want to publish this, this piece.

[00:54:22]

And so, it didn’t really hit me until, like, the day that it went up that, like, anyone could read it and was going to be able to, to read it. And, um, almost immediately the response that I got was so supportive and positive and, and, but more significantly than that, like there was a lot of identification that people had and I got a lot of messages from people who were young and dating and in early recovery who were like, I, I felt this way too.

[00:54:51]

And that felt really meaningful. And I’ve said this like a million times now in this conversation, but I wasn’t seeing a lot of that out put out there at the time. I, there were like, there were no sober influencers. There was no, like, this is the day in my life as like a sober girl, you know, like the way that we have now.

[00:55:14]

And so, it felt like people were eager for more insight into what it really looked like and I was, you know, I had been searching for it ,too. I wanted to find other young women who were single and dating and working and doing it all sober and I really couldn’t find anything like that. And so I started writing more. And, you know, writing other essays for other publications about, like, different aspects of being sober. And then, the idea for the book kind of came from there and it just sort of came together. And then all of a sudden, like, I was. You know, telling everyone that I knew that I was sober because it was just happening.

 

[00:55:53]

I mean, I think that people are hungry for sort of people like them who are doing either what they’re scared to do or what they want to do to tell them that it’s going to be okay on the other side. I mean, I remember listening to a podcast. It’s so funny. So many of us. Do that. And that’s like those first voices of like, it’s going to be okay.

[00:56:17]

Your life doesn’t end If you stop drinking and like you might actually be happier. But I heard this interview with Christie Coulter who wrote, Nothing Good Can Come From This and now, Exit Interview. She was talking about the fact that she’d quit drinking and this was before she was an author, but she had written essays and she lived in Seattle and I lived in Seattle and she worked in tech and I worked in tech and we were around the same age and it I mean, it’s so crazy when you hear that how you’re like I mean, I remember like stalking her looking at her blog We’re sending her an email and being like, I’m 98 days sober.

[00:57:00]

I mean, it’s so crazy how you’re just like, please talk to me more. And she wrote me back like a week later and was like, you must be on day 106 now. And I was like, holy shit. But you know, you just need a voice or someone writing like you did to be like, Oh, she’s young and she’s dating. And you know, there’s this one person I know of in the world who’s doing this too.

[00:57:26]

Yes, I remember listening to Holly Whittaker and. Laura McAllen, McAllen. Yes, I used to listen to the home podcast before I got sober. And I think Holly worked in tech and worked for a startup and I was working for a startup and you know, I was in New York, she had been in San Francisco, but it was just like enough similarities where I felt like, wait, like, and that was the only, the only thing I could find.

[00:57:56]

I remember that I related to because I, I just felt like all the. But yeah, when I started writing, I did get, and I still get a lot of messages from young women, like in big cities and I love it. I love getting those emails, DMS, whatever, like. Because I wrote them. Like, I emailed Holly Whitaker being like, how do I do this?

[00:58:17]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, because I’ve spoken to her since, like, my book came out and like, shared the email. And it, yeah, it was like, just, you’re so desperate for someone to tell you that it’s going to be okay. Like, you will reach out to a complete stranger, but like, we’ve all done it, you know? It was kind of funny when you were saying that because I also listened to the home podcast in very, very early sobriety.

 

[00:58:44]

Like, I remember going on a walk in the middle of work when I was on like day 10 and listening to it. And I actually did Holly’s Hip Sobriety School when I was 60 days sober because I was so afraid of going back to drinking. I was like, okay, I had A. I need to add this online class and meet other people who are trying to get sober and just have it in my life for multiple hours a week.

 

[00:59:13]

It’s funny because in that moment, I absolutely loved her and I couldn’t totally relate to her because she was younger and dating. And you know, for over a decade and had two little kids. So, you kind of need people to show you the way and then you also need to be like, oh this person is like me. Yeah, yeah, and it’s so true.

[00:59:39]

You need people with different stories. Like there’s different entry points for everyone and it’s funny because now like, you know I have a baby and I’m married and like I don’t totally relate to the young girls who I see who are like in early recovery and dating and you know, like I enjoy watching their videos, but I’m in a different life stage and I’m like, I’m making new mom friends.

[01:00:05]

Like, I like hearing from other moms, you know, who are, but I couldn’t have related to that.

Yeah. 7 years ago. So, I think it’s yeah, it was just like, that was where I was at the time. And so, that was sort of where I started the starting point that I, that I went from and writing about it. I mean, I love this book because I don’t think there is a ton of books about someone going through this in a city.

[01:00:32]

In their twenties, like, kind of going through that process. One of the things I like when you were talking about writing that 1st essay was, I think that all of sort of early sobriety, once you get through the really shitty 1st month or so it, like, I describe it as, like, Everything feels really tender and also kind of in technicolor and like you’re rediscovering everything and seeing everything with new eyes.

[01:01:02]

Like, you were mentioning. Just like, the view or the fresh air, or going for a walk. I mean, I felt almost tingly with all these moments, like literally 6 a week and you don’t get that very much as an adult. I hadn’t felt that much inspiration or that many emotions or that many eye opening moments in two decades.

[01:01:29]

And it’s kind of cool that you get to feel all those feelings again, just by removing this thing that’s dragging you down.

Oh, yeah, it was like such a high, but you know, I really thought. Okay, my life will end when I stop drinking, I will never have fun again, I won’t feel excited about things and I had no idea the high that I would get from being sober and like discovering the world and like feeling authentic joy and laughing and being like, wait, this is really funny and just feeling like myself and what’s interesting now in recovery for a little over seven years is like, I miss early sobriety sometimes because, you know, it’s just become such a steady part of my life.

[01:02:17]

And, you know, I love not waking up hungover. I love, like, I can’t imagine having a small baby and having a headache. Like, I, like, I, I’m very, I did that and it is pure health. Like, yeah, I’m sure with a hangover, there’s nothing worse. I think about it all the time because I am tired and I am, you know, like, and so doing that hung over on top of it, like, I can’t imagine.

[01:02:45]

So, I’m very grateful, you know, for sobriety, but I do, I miss sometimes that, like, the rush of all the, the newness and I think.

 

Yeah, that’s something that, like, I wouldn’t have believed if, like, I had heard before getting sober, so, like, for anyone listening, I think not only will your life get better, but for me, at least, like, those early, you know, months and, and couple of years were really fun when I look back on them now.

Yeah. I think so too. I mean, I, I made more friends like new friends in my first year of sobriety, either online or in person, but the online ones felt really very real.

 

[01:03:23]

I’m still, you know, 8. 5 years. I’m still connected to a lot of them, but more than I had in the previous 5 years. I had been just so trying really hard.

Yeah. To not have anyone know how much I was worried about my drinking and trying really hard to like overcompensate and make sure that I looked like I had it all together.

[01:03:46]

That I was not very open to new people or new experiences or like I was just trying to get through the day and then rewarding myself with drinking.

Yeah, me too. It was actually quite boring when I think back on it now. And it’s funny that I felt like drinking is so fun and so cool when in reality, like my life was pretty small, you know, it was just drinking and being drunk and having repeating myself and asking the same questions and going to the same places and even living in New York City.

[01:04:18]

Like, Yeah, I was going to different bars and different restaurants, but that’s kind of all I was doing. And then when I got sober, it was like, Oh, I live in New York city. Like I’m going and doing things like, I wasn’t going to museums or shows or like remembering what restaurants I was at, like, because it was just in this like hanging out with people who had different interests.

[01:04:40]

Exactly. Yeah, I made so many new friends when I got sober and have such like fond memories of going to the movies and going on walks and just doing things and being a present participant in my life, which I had not felt when I was drinking. I felt like life was kind of just passing me by and happening to me.

[01:05:00]

And I was able to get in the driver driver’s seat of my own life when I stopped drinking. Yeah. I remember like driving across the lake. I live in Seattle on a beautiful day and it was like seven in the morning for some reason, I think I had like hooked up with a couple other sober people and we were going to go to brunch, but like all the way across Seattle, but you know, when you’re like, oh, they’re sober, too.

You’re like, I’ll drive 45 minutes to say hi to you. But and of course when you’re sober, you’re like, oh 8 a. m. I can do that. But it was amazing. I was driving across and all these people were like running and biking and out there in the sunshine and I was like, holy shit, do they do this every weekend? like, have I missed half of the entire world? And I think even if I’d done that when I was still drinking, I wouldn’t have seen it with those same eyes of, like, awakening and possibilities and wonder. Like, it’s so weird the way your vision shifts when you’re in this, like, early time of discovery.

[01:06:12]

Yeah, I remember being drunk and like coming home from a night out at like five o’clock in the morning and seeing people jogging and being like, whoa, like they’re having a very different Saturday and like, I didn’t believe, you know, when I got sober, I couldn’t believe how many people were out and like on a Saturday morning getting coffee, walking their dogs, sitting in the park, like dressed, looking like showered.

[01:06:35]

Like I just could not believe that that whole, there was this whole world that I had been missing.

[01:06:42]

Yeah, I had to ask you, you talked about going to a moderation management. Meeting and I don’t know, maybe a bunch of people who’ve listened to this podcast. Probably a lot of them might not know about moderation management.

 

[01:06:56]

I mean, I certainly did it on my own. I used to like log, you know. Okay I’m only going to drink X number of drinks per week or I’m only going to drink 2 drinks a night or I’m only going to drink beer. Not wine or what? I mean, I tried every trick to moderate But can you tell me about what that meeting was like because in the book I was like yikes, you know

[01:07:19]

Yes, so I was obsessed with this idea of moderating and becoming a normal drinker and how can I do it and how can I and that was part of like the fact finding research stage that talked about earlier was like I spent years really obsessed with moderating and counting drinks and telling myself I’ll only have this many when I go out.

[01:07:37]

I couldn’t do it. And that was really helpful for me to know because that’s what eventually like allowed me to stay sober. But years before getting sober, I had a bad night of drinking and was feeling like I needed to make a change. But total abstinence like sounded, dramatic and scary and I wasn’t ready for it.

[01:08:00]

And I just, was Googling and found this website. You know, the premise behind moderation management is it’s, an alternative to 12 step programs. And, you meet, there’s still meetings you meet in person and the structure of the group is that you talk about how your attempts at moderation are going.

[01:08:20]

I guess sort of feel feels like group therapy. I only went one to one meeting. So, I’m not qualified to really speak to it. But in my experience of it, it was felt like group therapy and people were, sharing how, it had been that week trying to moderate and it was to me really bleak. Like, I felt like there was no hope in that room.

[01:08:41]

The people sharing seemed to share my own desperate desire to moderate, but like, they seemed so miserable and like, it just felt like we’re all setting ourselves up to fail. Like, you know, I remember this guy being like this week was pretty good. I like only had a few beers, but then, Thursday I was like, really upset.

[01:09:01]

So, like I had more and I think obsession of every drinker is like, or whatever alcoholic problem drink or whatever you want to call it, is this illusion or delusion that like, we’ll be able to moderate our drinking one day. And this felt like a room full of people who were really clinging to that same desire to be able to moderate and just we’re not able to do so.

 

[01:09:24]

And I didn’t go back. It felt kind of. I was bummed because like I said, I, I was desperate for solutions and it was like, I don’t think this is it, I remember like it was until I stopped drinking that I realized. I’m so glad you asked that.

[01:09:39]

Just not drinking is so much easier than trying to moderate it and so much better. Because moderating like, first of all, I wasn’t very good at it for any amount of time. Or I would completely white knuckle it or I was just in this constant cycle of promising myself I’d do something and then quitting or failing or giving up on myself.

[01:10:02]

I mean, it was Just pretty brutal, and I stayed in it for years. I mean, it, you wrote in the book, like, once I fully accepted that I simply couldn’t drink safely, I felt an incredible amount of relief. I didn’t have to work harder to be better, quote unquote, at drinking. I could just not drink.

Yeah, I remember it was such a relief when I finally heard, like, someone say, you don’t have to drink.

[01:10:33]

Like, you just don’t have to drink. I had just been obsessed with like trying to crack the code and how can I drink and be cool and fit in but not get too drunk but still have fun and it’s like, you just don’t have to. And that was just such a relief when I finally accepted that. And, you know, I think there are, there’s a lot of like self-help stuff and how to guides about, you know, how to not drink.

[01:11:01]

For me, like, the only message that, like, I really wanted to get across with this book and the reason I wrote it was, like,

Just that message – like, plain and simple. You don’t have to drink. You can be done when you decide that you’re done You don’t have to hit a crazy rock bottom. You don’t have to lose everything. And this is what it really looks like and I don’t have all the answers and I’m not here to tell anyone how to do It but like this is what it really looks like and for me my life got so much better when I stopped and I just think if I had known that when I was You know, struggling, it would have provided me with a lot of hope, I think.

 

[01:11:40]

And so, that’s what I really wanted to, get across by writing this book. That’s perfect. I mean, I really loved your book. I, the stories are super interesting, I related to so many of them. A lot of them had me smiling probably remembered, like, SantaCon. I was like, yep, I’ve that.

[01:12:00]

And a lot of the other ones, but also, super vulnerable when you talk about, going to the hospital. I mean, my heart went out to you and then, of course, I’m like, Oh, I never did that. And then I remembered, , six other things I did that were equally. Yeah, fucked up and messed up and bad.

[01:12:15]

And I was like, Oh, shit. But anyway, you know, it’s easy to, like, be like, Well, I never did anything that bad that I was like, Oh, yeah, if I don’t count these, it was very consequence free. And it’s so easy to look for the differences instead of the similarities.

Right. But like, all of our stories are different, you know, like, I never drank a bottle of wine alone on my couch.

[01:12:39]

Like, I hear that in your story and I’m like, well, I never did that. Like, maybe it wasn’t that bad. Like, we all have different versions of like, our, you know, not, not yet.

Right. Like, we didn’t, you didn’t. You didn’t get to that place yet, but like, very well could have. And I think that’s why it’s so helpful for different people with different stories to share them because.

[01:12:58]

Yeah. We can all relate to different aspects of it, but like I was taught early on to look for the similarities, not the differences, you know, because that identification with other people who are sober is what really has helped me in my own recovery.

 

Yeah. No, I totally agree. Well, thank you so much for being here.

[01:13:17]

I really enjoyed talking to you and tell us where everyone can find you or follow up or read your book. It is really great. So, if anyone wants a great read, you should definitely pick up Drinking Games.

 

Thank you so much. This is such a great conversation. You can find me on Instagram  @sarahllevy.

[01:13:37]

My website sarahllevy.com. My book, Drinking Games, is available out now wherever books are sold. And I also write a newsletter on Substack called Seltzer Rocks, all about life through a sober lens.

Very cool. Thank you so much.

Thank you.