SUMMARY KEYWORDS

adhd, add, women, drinking, alcohol, brain, dopamine, diagnosis, child, people, struggle, coach, sensory overload, understand, dysregulated, life, good, biggest, parents

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Hanna Forrest

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there. If you’re listening to this podcast, I’m betting you’ve been going back and forth for a while now on whether or not you should stop drinking. And I want you to raise your hand. If you’ve had any one of these thoughts.

You might have been thinking, I’m not that bad. I actually don’t want to stop drinking completely. I just want to drink like a normal person. Or maybe you come home after work. And you think I know I shouldn’t drink tonight. But I literally can’t relax or have fun without it. It’s really common to say I’ve tried to take a break from drinking before. But it’s just too hard. I always give up anyway. So what’s the point in trying again? Or here’s one I hear all the time from women. Everyone I know drinks. If I stopped drinking, I will be bored. Or I’ll be boring. I’ll have no fun. I’ll never be invited anywhere. I’ll just sit home and be miserable. Or maybe you can insert whatever your reason is there.

So is your hand up? If it is that is totally okay. And that’s because taking a break from drinking and changing your relationship with alcohol. This shit is hard.

And that’s why I’m really pumped to invite you to my completely free 60 minute masterclass the five secrets to successfully take a break from drinking, even if you’ve tried and you failed in the past.

After you take this free class, you’ll realize why what you’ve been doing up until now hasn’t been working, and what to do.

Instead, we’re going to cover all the juicy topics, including what questions you need to stop asking yourself, because they’re setting you up for self sabotage, not for success. We’re going to talk about exactly what you need to do differently. So you can stop the exhausting cycle of stopping drinking and then saying screw it, and starting again.

And we’re going to talk about the real reasons you haven’t been successful. And I’m betting they’re not what you think they are. And this isn’t surface level stuff. I am handing over the strategies and the mindset shifts I go through every day with my private coaching clients. If you’re listening to this podcast, I really encourage you to take a moment and sign up for this completely free masterclass. It will help you on your journey to drink class and live more to feeling better. So if you want to save your spot, go to hellosomedaycoaching.com/class while the class is still available, and I really hope to see you there.

Hi there. This is an episode that I really wanted to record because it is all about ADHD, women and alcohol.

And I over the past couple of years have heard of more and more women I work with and women I know who have stopped drinking or struggling with alcohol who have said that they are recently diagnosed with ADHD or know that it’s something that they have struggled with over the past couple of years or maybe even since childhood.

A lot of them have actually been told me that their children have recently been diagnosed with ADHD. And it actually made them take a look at themselves because a lot of the signs they hear about in their children they sort of recognize as something that is part of how they function. In doing research for this episode, I found out that ADD and ADHD are actually five to 10 times more common with adults with drug and alcohol abuse. And not only that, but over half of people with ADHD struggle with alcohol.

Now, I am absolutely not an expert on this topic. So I brought in someone who is my guest today is Hanna Forrest. She’s an ADHD specialist and Neurofeedback technician, for symmetry and PT, Hanna has been working with neurodiverse adults and children for over eight years, and is certified under ch add and add ca. And Hanna is the former director of the Brain Balance Center in Charleston, South Carolina, Hanna gained extensive neurology training and is the creator of https://www.adhdandmesc.com/, an ADHD Parent Training and children’s support program. She has a passion for helping those who struggle with a variety of neurological challenges. So Hanna, welcome. I’m really excited to have you here.

06:29

Thank you so much. I’m very happy to be here. Thank you.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  06:32

Yeah. And it was perfect. When you reached out to me to talk about this subject. I know, You’ve had ADHD for a long time, you’re a specialist in it. And you’ve also struggled with drinking too much, and have stopped drinking. And that was something that recently, I had had ADHD and drinking pop up like five or six times in the previous couple of months. So it was something that I definitely wanted to dive into on the podcast. So to start out, can you tell me a little bit about sort of ADHD women and alcohol?

 

07:06

Yeah, absolutely. Unfortunately, it’s super, super prevalent. And it’s not something that’s usually discussed all that much. And I think it’s about time that that changes. ADHD is basically a neurological disorder. And it has differences in the brain between a neurodiverse person, which is somebody like me that has ADHD, and then your average neurotypical person who doesn’t struggle in the same way. So I have been struggling with it since I was very, very young.

I grew up in Tokyo, Japan, where hyperactivity is not the norm. And as a Caucasian, little girl, I was always a little too much to sort of vivacious, too loud, too excitable, and all of that a lot of those things are hallmarks of ADHD in particular, and I just remember, you know, being continuously told to be quiet, that I’m embarrassing that up too much, and so on and so forth. And now they would call that effervescence, but they didn’t back then. And so it was undiagnosed for a long, long time.

But what that did that early sort of reinforcement of my behavior being negative really cemented my lack of self worth, which then equals not feeling comfortable in my own skin, and in my own family, because I was also a black sheep shopper. And then I became friends with, you know, kids who were more like me, and started experimenting with drinking in particular. And that sort of gave me a lot of quote, unquote, fake sort of calmness, right, it calmed me. And so that was very helpful. So that’s how it all sort of started. Yeah,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  09:06

that’s super interesting. I mean, I think your story is not unique in terms of, especially for women. We’re told, from a very early age to, you know, help people to be quiet to, you know, how we should behave in the classroom and around other people. So you absolutely can get a lot of negative messages about things being quote unquote, wrong with you or not being able to act in an appropriate way.

 

09:34

Oh, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. There, there are so many different aspects of ADHD, that reflect on a person’s, you know, sort of personality, I suppose, is what people would think the things that we struggle with. It’s all happening in the prefrontal cortex, right, which is the very front part of your brain. This is the part of the brain that does all of that work. It’s the executive function area, that place where your motivation lies, where you’re staying on task lies where attention lies, but most importantly, where your self regulation lies. And so if that part is dysregulated, which it is in the frontal lobe with everybody that’s got ADD and ADHD, that’s where the lack of strength is. All sorts of things pop up. And it makes it seem as though we don’t have control over the easy things like listening, following through keeping yourself calm, because we really don’t we struggle with being able to manage those things. So yeah, it’s a huge topic. There’s a lot to talk about, that’s for sure.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  10:46

Yeah. And so where should we start with I mean, I assume that a lot of people listening to this, myself included, don’t really understand sort of what the symptoms of ADHD are ADD how they present and maybe to start, I actually am not totally clear on the difference between ADD and ADHD.

 

11:09

Okay, yeah, that’s a great place to start. So over the years, they’ve named this disorder, many different things. And this disorder has been under sloth, not necessarily understood, but has sort of come into the sciences, you know, beginnings in like, the 1800s, actually. So it’s been around for a very long time, they just called it many different things. But now, ADHD is what everybody refers to, to refer to this condition. A DD is sort of what they used to call the inattentive type. And so that’s where the confusion lies. But now, whether or not you’ve got the hyperactivity or not, it is ADHD. That’s what is called. Now there are three different subtypes essentially of ADHD, there is the ADHD, the hyperactivity, included with the you know, lack of focus, and all sorts of things I’ll talk about in a second. And then there’s add without without the hyperactivity, it’s mostly just inattentive. And then there’s the combo, right? So that’s, that’s where I am. I’m right in the middle of being too much and hyperactive and inattentive. So that’s a really tricky place to be. But yes, so essentially, you’re gonna refer to it refer to it as ADHD. Essentially, everyone thinks, well, it’s just a lack of focus. And it’s not just a lack of focus, the primary reason why we as women and children and all folks who have ADHD struggle is the self regulation case, this ties directly into alcoholism, and all sorts of things that that I can explain, but just sort of in a nutshell, you’ve got the executive functioning skills are related to attention, focus, concentration memory, impulsivity hyperactivity organizations, social skills, decision making, planning, motivation, switching tasks, which is really hard for the kids and learning from past mistakes. So with all of these things we struggle with so much, I mean, insert alcohol or any substance in anywhere, and you can understand why people turn to substances. For comfort. Mm hmm.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  13:26

Yeah, that’s a lot of the things when you were mentioning it. You know, if you struggle with alcohol or something else, you know, a lot of us sit here and say, What’s wrong with me? Why can I control this? Why don’t I get more willpower? I mean, I think we all have those thoughts. Regarding I mean, I’m don’t have ADHD. So I had that constant loop and a very, very busy mind that alcohol work to pull down. I had a lot of anxiety and kind of wanted, I was a multitasker, I was very busy, very overloaded. And in my mind, I came home had a drink that helps shut off my mind very quickly. I can only imagine the idea of why don’t I have willpower? Why can’t I deal with this? Why can’t I just have two drinks? If you struggled with impulse control, or remembering you know, learning from past mistakes and anxiety or needing physical calm that would just exacerbate the the difficulty in getting a handle on this?

 

14:32

Oh my gosh, it’s so well said that is exactly it. Right? It’s hard enough as it is for anybody right to then have an addiction and then to you know, figure out sort of where that stem from and then to move forward. But when you have these difficulties in doing these very simple quote unquote simple things, like being able to control your impulses, you don’t have that well then that whole I’m not Oh, Let’s go have a drink, you know, screw it, you know, I’ve been not drinking for however many months or whatever to it, I’ll just I’ll do it. That’s not an actual thought where you’re thinking through the consequences in the ADHD brain, and then making the decision to do it, it is lightning speed, you know, the bottle of whatever just pops into my head, you know, fraction of a second, and then you’re off, and you’re consuming. There’s no weighing of positives and negatives, which is why poor children have such a hard time not learning from their mistakes. They keep doing the same thing over and over again, the parent is like, why can’t you sort of just learn from your past mistakes, because we don’t hold that in our brains very well. So impulse impulse control, I would say is one of one of the biggest reasons why it’s so difficult. And I’m going to talk about why it’s so difficult to stop. But I also want to talk about you know, like you often do in like you always do in your podcast is the what you can do, and how you can look at this to get this huge, Wolfie, as you call him, I call it x. Yeah, to get it under control. And so there are a lot you can do. But I primarily want people to understand that if you’ve got ADHD, you think you might have ADHD, the first thing you need to do, of course is to go get diagnosed, that is your first step. So

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  16:26

where would you even go to get diagnosed? Because I don’t you know, you would say, Okay, what I’m hearing sounds familiar, like the ability in attentiveness, you know, sort of sensory overload, impulse control, and all the other things hyperactivity you mentioned and stuff not staying in your brain too long. So you say, Okay, this sounds familiar, you know, in the same way that I struggled with anxiety and said, Okay, yikes, I stopped drinking, I am still feeling this way. I can’t feel this way anymore. I go to my doctor and say, Alright, you need to help me. Where would someone even go to find out like, do I have this or not?

 

17:10

A good first place to start? is just to go online. Actually, you can take a lot of self tests. Of course, that’s not the doctor, right? Giving you the actual final Yes, you are, you’ve got ADHD or not, but go for it. Just just take a couple. When we start talking about some of these more specific symptoms, and your base is listening to all of it, they’ll get a very good idea. You can just hop online and take a self test. But then most importantly, is go to your doctor, just your primary care physician and they have a list of questions that they will ask you, and then they make a decision from there.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  17:50

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, the sobriety starter kit.

The sobriety starter kit is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

 

how well versed is your primary care physician? I’m asking because I know you know your general practitioner at a lot of women Go to their doctors and say, you know, oh, I’m struggling with alcohol, or I’m very worried I drink too much, or even I’m a little worried. And a lot of times are kind of dismissed. And I know women are often dismissed when they say, here’s how I’m feeling. And the doctors are like, just deal with it just prioritize you know what I mean? Like, don’t

 

20:20

get so emotional. Don’t be such a woman. In some way or another. Right? Yeah. So I wonder, you know, I

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  20:28

think starting with your, your general practitioner is great. But I wonder how many times women are sort of dismissed? It’s like, you know, oh, Jeff, do whatever.

 

20:38

Oh, sure. Because all of these things everybody struggles with right to some degree or another, it’s just that the the ADHD brain struggles with it to such a degree, that it’s really impacting your life negatively, right. forgetfulness, everyone, it forgetful at times, so on and so forth. But they aren’t necessarily super versed on it, just like nutrition, quite frankly, you know, so, and that’s okay. But they have the right questions to ask. And so they’ve got a standard form that they will ask the questions using that for, that’s all that they need. And if you answer a certain number of questions, if I think it’s 80, something out of 100 something, then you most likely have ADHD, and it’s a relatively easy thing to diagnose. And so then the next step, generally speaking, is that the doctor will then suggest different medications.

But I think it’s really helpful for anybody to just check in with maybe an ADHD coach. Yeah, too, because, you know, they live it, they breathe it, they understand it, they’re constantly studying, you know, even though I know myself, just neurology is fantastic. I mean, that neuroscience keeps it’s a they keep learning more and more and more. So definitely, you know, just go and reach out to to an ADHD coach and say, Does this sound familiar?

You know, after you’ve gotten your results, and then go from there, there’s so much that you can do to manage this. I don’t want people this is this is only thing I was concerned about when I wanted to have this talk is that I don’t want people to say, well, if it’s that hard for me, even harder than the average person for me to control myself to stick with quitting all of these things and forget it, like, why should I bother working so hard? If it’s that hard for me? Well, you know what, it’s sort of like that so much Grin and Bear it, but it is what it is, right. And so we have to learn to manage manage it, this is a managing condition, it is a marathon, not a sprint, and it’s okay, there are so many strategies out there, and there’s so much help that you can get. So just know that before we go into all the stuff like the lack of dopamine.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  22:46

thing is that, you know, from my experience from talking to just 1000s of women, it’s hard for everybody to stop drinking everybody. I mean, there is a reason we drink. You know, sometimes it’s really hard for people to quit because their partner drinks a lot, or they’ve got sort of a toxic environment at home. Sometimes it’s just complete, overwhelmed. Sometimes it’s anxiety, or depression, sometimes it’s a lack of support, or your social group is really pressuring you to keep drinking. And there are a million, you know, they have a child with special needs. And that really, you know, weighs on them. And it’s very difficult to handle to take time for yourself. So the reason that we touch on all these things, the reason that I have episodes on perfectionism, and dealing with a partner who drinks in anxiety is because every single person is factors, unique factors that, like you said, need to be managed. And that is just, you know, drinking a lot of times is just a maladaptive coping strategy. That’s also an addictive substance, that mate that is surrounding us everywhere. So it’s not your fault you drink? Of course you do, right in this society. It’s just a question of like, it is a coping strategy that is also dragging you down. And and the job is to figure out better coping strategies that are not negative for you. So part of this episode is just to say, yeah, it makes it difficult, but it is hard for everyone. And if you’re recognizing this sort of unique reason, why drink you keep coming back to drinking, let’s figure out the tools to help you get away. Yes,

 

24:27

yeah. And coaches are perfect for that, especially coaches that are, you know, well versed in substance use disorders, too. So one of the other tricky things about ADHD in particular is the lack of dopamine that we produce, but also how our brains mismanaged it. So dopamine is in charge of giving us that little spark or little drip of Ooh, that was fun. Whew, that was cool. Oh, that was great. To then reinforce whatever it is that you’re doing. So that you will then want to continue doing that, for example, exercising, will give you a lot of dopamine hits, and then makes you feel better at the end. And you associate that unless you’re first starting out, that could be also real tricky, too, might not be as fun. But things like eating your favorite, whatever it is, you’re very happy, you get that satisfied feeling. And that’s the dopamine being released. So what happens is because we don’t have, we don’t use it properly in our ADHD brains, we don’t have that continuous reinforcement and reward system that is satisfying us with things. So if, for example, I just made a dinner that I thought was, you know, terrific, or whatever, I might not get that full satisfaction of having made that, which then in turn, can frustrate a person, which then in turn, you know, you start reaching for substances and whatnot to fill those voids. But the alcohol and all other substances, they give you lots of hits of dopamine, just like video games do for kids. And so you’re getting that immediate reward, feeling good. You know, feeling the high of the alcohol or the high of whatever winning killing the bad guy on TV, those are rewards that your brains getting. And so, of course, we want to drink more wine the night after the night before and the night before the night before, because it’s giving us the dopamine that’s making us feel better. So that being said, when we are actively trying to quit, there’s a huge amount of this is gonna suck a great deal. But let’s find other things that will give us those dopamine hits so much more than just the average person. So you have to find those rewards like your sober treats you always talk about, but they have to be bigger and more satisfying. Even, you know, then for the average person.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  27:08

Yeah, and I love I mean, dopamine is such a big subject related to alcohol and all other substances, because, you know, I did a whole episode that I absolutely love. So if you haven’t listened to it, please do on dopamine nation that was written by Anna Lemke. And the reason it’s so important is, you know, you have this baseline level of dopamine. And as you mentioned, with ADHD, you don’t have the same baseline you have a dopamine deficit versus, say, the general population or who who doesn’t struggle with that. And for everyone, when you drink, it spikes your dopamine really high. And then your body wants to self regulate to bring you back to your baseline. So it actually regulates downward. So basically, when you stop drinking, or when you don’t drink, you actually are at a dopamine deficit versus where you would be normally.

And Anna Lemke talks about this really well, but say, you know, your baseline is 100 Drinking spikes at 250, cocaine might spike it to 250. And so because of that your body regulates your, your baseline down to a 70. And she suggests anyone struggling with any substance go into dopamine fast, for at least 30 days to come back to your baseline. But knowing that those first two weeks especially are going to be really difficult because it is not in your imagination that you are going to feel worse before you feel better. But in the grand scheme of feeling crappy 30 days is a very short period of time. So the only reason I referenced that is you talking about people with ADHD along with all the other symptoms of impulse control and sensory overload. also struggling with a deficit of dopamine. I mean, that may be why half of all people who struggle with ADHD or or have that also struggle with substance abuse.

 

29:16

Yeah, absolutely. 100,000% Drop the mic. Yes. You know, it’s definitely a major connection between the two. But that just means we need to find other things that give us that not obviously the same type of feeling but things that really really make us happy not just a little thing here and there like you know, get that cherry lollipop or whatever it is. Yeah, it was so tell me about that that

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  29:44

they need to be bigger sober treats and maybe more often. I mean, I know you stopped drinking. So

 

29:50

what works for you it just in your personal experience? Well, first of all, the practicing of stopping drinking was really important. Stopping, starting stopping and starting was actually really is very important for the ADHD brain because what is doing is when you wake up and feel good, the next morning when you haven’t had anything to drink, that is a huge reinforcer that we need lots of rewards, again, because of the lack of dopamine and the way we don’t use it properly. That kind of feeling of oh, my gosh, I feel so good. You really need to sit in that moment and feel why why do you feel like how is it that you’re feeling so good? Is it that your mind is clear? Is that that your heart’s not racing? Is it that you are more relaxed? Is it that you’re happy first thing in the morning, you have to really think about these things and, and focus on these good things for it to then reinforce your brain that you’re equating you’re not drinking with positivity, that’s what you have to do.

So that’s what kids need to do when they are asked to do something and they don’t do it. Or then when they do do it, it’s an immediate reward system that you need to be giving the child because of the lack of dopamine, they don’t have that reward system for themselves. And so the parent has to find something that is a reward system for that child. And you have to do that for yourself when you’re trying to quit drinking. So if you can’t, you know, if you don’t make it on the first try, I don’t actually, I don’t know anybody who has on the first day. But it’s not a bad thing. Because you are then being reinforced. As long as you you know, sit with the with how happy you are in that particular moment.

And writing these things down are super important as well, for the ADHD brain, our working memory doesn’t work very well. So working memory is just what you can hold in your brain, your very short term memory. And so you have to be reminded of things in a number of different ways to have that stick into your brain. So for example, let’s say the biggest thing is that you didn’t wake up with a hangover and you feel like going for a run, if that’s how you’re feeling that morning. Write that down. So your brain can see it and you’re feeling it. So it’s like a double reinforcer like, write that down. Have it visible, whenever you feel good about something that you would not normally feel good about if had you been drinking the night before. So writing it down is incredibly important to have that visual reminder. And reinforcer. So yeah, I mean, there are things like you mentioned sensory overload a second ago, right? You’re a parent. And most likely, if your child has ADHD, one of the parents does actually

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  32:36

talk about that a little bit more. Yeah.

 

32:38

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So there, there are so many different schools of thought about how ADHD sort of comes about in a person. And a big chunk of it is is hereditary. Now, my parents, my mother and father both did not exhibit any kind of ADHD tendencies. But I am related to Emily Dickinson, and she’s one that has a lot had a lot of trouble with her ADHD. So it can be somewhere down the line, right? It doesn’t have to be your immediate parent. But that being said, if your child has been diagnosed, there is a good chance that you have a lot in common with that child. And that’s something obviously to be looked at.

And one of the things that pops up a lot for parents in particular, is that sensory overload. And yes, nobody likes it when everyone’s yelling in the room, but you can usually the average neurological brain, neurotypical brain can actually sort of block some of it out and focus on something, our brains cannot do that at all, at all, at all at all.

So it’s not that we can’t focus is that we’re over focusing on every single thing around us, right? I walk in the door, I’ve got my groceries, my dogs, my dogs are barking like mad, they’re jumping on me, my kids are behind me, someone’s mad about something, I’ve got three of them, and they’re kicking off their shoes. And all of this is happening. And I’m paying attention to every single thing. And it stinks. You’re not focusing on one thing, but you’re hearing and feeling and sensing all of it. And that overload equals drink that overload equal equals get some drugs immediately. So you can block some of this stuff as

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  34:15

it does it. You know, I know that one of the things that I love that we importer talks about is how alcohol is sort of interesting and unique in that it’s both a depressant and a stimulant. So it absolutely, you know, dulls sort of the degree of which the sensory stuff around you hits you as quickly. Right and I mean, I think that sensory overload, regardless of whether you have ADHD or not, is a big reason that a lot of women drink and I know it was Iowa’s too because a lot of us are sensitive or sensitive to sounds were sensitive to busyness. I mean, I remember when I had my son, you know, newborn literally newborn my mother in law He came to stay with us for two weeks. And he screamed, he, of course he did. He was a baby. And it was so fucking loud. And it was so much. I felt like, you know, I constantly was not satisfying him. And I, my mother in law was going out for groceries. And I wrote down, you know, we’re making a list of all the stuff we did. I mean, thank God, she can’t. And I wrote down earplugs, and she came home, and I’m going through the bag. And I was like, Where are the earplugs? And she said, I thought it was a joke. And I’m like, first of all, no one with a two week old jokes about fucking anything. Like, are you? No. But I was just like, that way I can hold him. He can be hysterically screaming, but I’ve got a little bit of a buffer, you know, wine kind of works the same way.

 

35:50

Yeah, I can’t believe that. You said that. Because that was one of my biggest tips. So when they have little ones, yeah, it’s just I was headsets or earphones. That’s something that I recommend to a lot of children, actually. So when they’re in the classroom, they’re hearing every single thing and they’re getting totally overwhelmed. But they have to hold it in these poor little guys, right, they have to hold it if they’re going to get so in so much trouble if they release their stress or their anxiety in any way. So it’s all built up, built up, and then it comes out when I get when they get home. Um, but yeah, headphones. And for kids who come you know, they’re special tools for their spidey senses. Because their spidey senses for sound, it’s so incredibly good, strong, that they have to put those in. And that’s something to the kids can tell their friends or whatever. So they don’t feel badly about it. But for sure, I mean, I wish I knew all this when I had my colleague, he daughter, oh, my God, for three hours, literally four o’clock in the afternoon, till seven at night, every single night screaming no matter what you do, how many times I tried to throw my boob into her mouth. It didn’t work. Nothing worked. I mean, she was just, you know, just screaming. So anyway, definitely headphones. And

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  37:02

well, yeah, and I love how when you mentioned that how much of a struggle and much has been because four to seven coincides with the witching hour. And I don’t think that, you know, it’s situational. It’s when people get off work, it’s when it’s sort of appropriate, meaning socially sanctioned to start drinking. And then you combine that with people with kids, and especially if you’re exhausted from the day, which who isn’t, whether you’re home, or you work, you’re just like, holy shit, I need both that dopamine hit for like the second shift. And I also need the buffer, you know, sort of the, the, the the pause that drinking gives you between something happening and you’re absorbing?

 

37:46

Absolutely. One of the other things, you know, aside from headphones, is to kill other things, especially with children that are super important for a parent that’s got ADHD is to absolutely start saying no, not no, don’t pick that up, child. And don’t throw that child. Yes, of course, all those things as well. But say no, to start to begin to say no to doing things for everybody at all times. Because it makes you feel like a better parent. That’s how that’s how I live, right? If I get the food, and it’s all healthy, and it’s done, and it’s out there, it makes me feel like a better parent, I get dopamine hits from that. But you have to really, really learn to start saying no to certain things. And also, the other is make changes, you have to prepare your environment to go along with things that you struggle with. So if it’s sensory overload, make sure that the dogs are somehow in their cages before you walk into the house with or crates, whatever, not cages. That sounds terrible. But you know, with your bags, and your kids and all of that, we just we got some crates, and they both go into the crate, they’re not jumping on me anymore. That’s one less thing that’s going to be attacking me sensory wise, right? at any particular moment. So that’s you as you start to figure these things out. And with coaching and you know, a good friend who understands ADHD, these things you can figure out what are roadblocks that are really going to jump in the way that that you can work to understand and then do something about

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  39:24

how important is it that your spouse understands what’s going on? Okay,

 

39:31

that’s a really good question. So I’m the ADHD coach in my household and I’ve got ADHD my middle daughter does as well. And I know I parents coming from that lens because I know what will work and what won’t work right but they do need to get a coach aside from me because it’s coming from mom or wife. It’s not the same as coming from a professional even though I know as much or more right than a typical, you know, regular life coach, maybe. So it’s really important for them to get an understanding of that it’s critical. It really is critical. Here’s another example. I because my working memory is so bad, I’ve learned to compensate over the years, and I need to do some, if I need to do something, I have to do it then in there or it’s gone. No, I can’t write it down, because I won’t remember where I wrote it down, or I’ll write it down or put somewhere else, or I’ll forget to even look, or forget that I wrote it down. So that doesn’t work for me. So what I’ve realized is I have to do it immediately. But that is, that’s ADHD related. But when I tell my husband, if I asked him, I’m like, can you feed the dogs? And then he’s much slower at doing it, I get so like, wound up thinking, can you just do like, can you just feed the dogs because he’ll take me 30 minutes later. And they’re whining. And I’m just like. And so I don’t think that I have really done a very good job about explaining these things to my husband and to my family. But it’s it’s definitely important that they do understand. So they get they understand that why Mom is needing this this way, or dad is needing this this way.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  41:13

Yeah, or needing to have some help when the kids come home or needing to take more breaks. I mean, I think that one of the most important things that that women can do, or anyone when they’re stopping drinking is to talk to their spouse, and you don’t have to tell them more than you need to about the fact that, you know, oh, my God, I’m worried about my drinking, you don’t need to tell them anything. But you can say, hey, I’m going to take a break from drinking. And what I’ve heard is just in the, you know, not just but in the first couple of weeks, I’m going to be super tired. That’s just what it does, I’m going to need more quiet time, I’m going to need to lower the bar and have less overwhelm. Because meaning you need to put the kids to bed, if they scream at night, you might need to take care of dinner, I might need to go to yoga in the evening. Whatever it is, and I can only imagine with ADHD. Yeah, that is kind of

 

42:10

really is it really, really is. But again, the first step is just getting diagnose, look up the symptoms, you know, your own leisure, what have you definitely get diagnosed. That’s first and foremost. Now, once you are, then you need to, you know, look up a coach or do your own research and need to sort of build your toolbox needs to be bigger than everybody else’s toolbox, unfortunately, right? That what worked for me this final time was the amount of planning I did ahead of time. And this, this is what did it, I did a whole entire first week of planning out the meals not to say that I mean, I usually am the one that likes to make it all because we’re not swimming in dough. You know, I don’t think anyone is necessarily but you know, planning out the meals. And so they’re either already there or you’ve already made them or you know that Wednesday’s pizza Thursdays as Mexican or whatever. And I’ve heard this a number of times you treat yourself like you’re sick. You know, I know, you’ve heard that a million times. And that is so true. My kids come to me for everything because I’m the you know, extra nurturer. But if they understand that you’re going through something they have to understand, and especially the husbands to need to understand what to do for you, not just say sort of this is going to be hard, because then they don’t really know what they should be doing. Unless it’s very specific. So it’s explaining, you know, I am yet to be in my room. And dinner is here, and all of that. But yeah, the planning, planning, planning, planning, planning is huge.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  43:46

And so you said that works for you. So that’s what you did. You said in your first week, not drinking, but what about after that? Because, you know, obviously, the first week is the hardest, but it you know, it takes time to not be like, Oh, screw this. I’m going to go back to drinking.

 

44:06

Absolutely. I’m glad you asked. Because the second most important things for ADHD brains to get you through this period is exercise. I can’t tell you how. And I was a personal trainer for a number of years as well. And that’s a very good shot for hyperactive ADHD brains. But it is it’s not important. It’s critical. It’s critical to do cardiovascular activity. I don’t mean you have to run for miles and miles. I just mean you have to get your heart pumping. So that the right chemicals into your brain. I’m not talking about like, Oh, don’t make your lungs and heart strong. Yeah, that’s great. We’re talking about the chemicals that our ADHD breed brains need in order to just be level just be okay and not be a stressed out, you know, manic Ness. And so that that is one of those Nanos Sibyls that is a non negotiable. And don’t worry, don’t worry, that can freak a lot of people out. I hate exercising, forget it, I’m not doing it. There are so many easy ways. Again, you can consult a professional on how to start working out so that it’s not overwhelming that it’s really easy. That’s only 15 minutes the first day. But this is very, very important. Yeah. And we know it’s a stress reliever, but if the chemicals, the dopamine, the serotonin, all of those endorphins that are released are critical for our ADHD brain. So that’s the second thing. Sure.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  45:36

I mean, I know something that’s something that I’ve been struggling with, because, you know, obviously I quit drinking six years ago, one year ago, I, my hips started hurting my back my hip, it’s, you know, it took me 10 months of resting and chiropractor and acupuncture and PT to figure out that I actually have a torn and detached hip labrum, which is like the band that holds your your hip into your socket bone. And now it’s been 14 months, and it is incredibly painful. And I used to work out four to five days a week for an hour at a time. And I haven’t been able to do that I still am doing what I can. But I mean, my mental health and anxiety and all that stuff is it’s so hard. And yeah, it’s so hard to use to be able to do stuff and not be able to so I’m still trying to figure it out. But exercise, even just walking with podcasts in my ear was such a huge tool for me in early sobriety. But honestly, throughout

 

46:41

my life, yeah, absolutely. 110%. And again, I don’t want people to say well, I hate exercising. So that’s not something I’m going to be able to do. Because if you’re with a good trainer, they’re going to be able to help you actually get into it very slowly, like things for you, you know, swimming, having looked into swimming at all, that would be a really good thing. Right? Yeah. So there are, there are so many things that you can still do that won’t even affect your hip. Yeah, that will strengthen the muscles that will help speed up your metabolism. Yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  47:11

I mean, I go to PT now twice a week, and I walk with my friends like once a week, and I actually still go to my workouts, but I just do upper body stuff, which is annoying, but at least I’m outside and with friends. I get my heart pump. Yes.

 

47:24

Yeah. And you’re getting those good chemicals that are flowing in your brain because of all of those things. So that’s, that’s awesome. And vitamin D is huge, too. But yeah, another thing I wanted to talk about really quickly is neurofeedback. So this is like emerging into a very popular and well studied Thank you NASA form of stress relief. It is a central nervous system, chiller, outter to coin a new phrase, it absolutely sort of brings. It corrects essentially dysregulated brainwaves. And so I had my brain map done recently. And I know I know what I’m struggling with. But it was so cool to see it on the screen, where my dysregulation in my brain was and it was like threatening your frontal lobe. I’m like no shakes your guts it was, it was great. It was just like a total confirmation. And that just took away the blame and the shame that I’ve always had that this is all me right? I’m fine. This is a this is a it’s ADHD, isn’t it? It’s not who I am. But it’s something I’ve got to manage. Yeah. And that’s okay. Because it’s manageable. If you have the right the right help, but Neurofeedback does wonders.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  48:42

So what is it looking at the brain just so you take away that sort of self blame? Or is it something that they do to our brain? And who does it because what you’re talking about? It’s sort of new to me.

 

48:56

Yes. And it’s new to a lot of people just because it isn’t mainstream, because who has, you know, sensors and stuff to put on your scalp and the technology and all that in their homes, right? We don’t yet. But symmetry, and PT which stands for neural pathway training is a particular company that actually has the equipment that you can use in your own home to get the set. Now, if it is a training of the brain, for example, you learned to ride a bike, and you haven’t written it again in the past 20 years, but you still can get on that bike and ride it right? You’re going to be wobbly, whatever, but you still know how to write it. That’s a brain remembering that that’s such a legs, remembering it. Everything comes from the brain. And so when your brain waves are dysregulated and that shows up on the map that they do, you can train those dysregulated brains to come down to a place where it needs you to be for calm, less anxiety and particularly works for ADHD in a sensitivity create permanent change, which is what’s so amazing, you’re just training it, you’re essentially just watching, you know, or listening depends on if your eyes are open or your eyes are closed. And the screen, if its eyes open, the screen will dim when your brainwaves are dysregulated. And then when there, it’s on the right regulation to try to hold you there, the screen will then brighten. And so your brain learns how to hold itself in that particular good sort of frame of mind, quote, unquote, in order for then your brain to then start to learn how to get to that regulated states now often, so it does it on its own. But it creates this pathway where it won’t forget how it feels to chill itself out. That’s your entire body. It’s awesome. Just I highly recommend that people start looking into it, and looking into companies that can, you know, actually provide the at home coaching, which is hugely important, and there’s not enough of it out there.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  51:03

Question for you. You mentioned ADHD coaching a number of times, which I absolutely love, and figuring out who can help you with that, as well as going to your doctor and talking about various other things that you can do. What are their ADHD therapists? Are there other kinds of specialists that people could look into? If they you know, don’t find someone right away?

 

51:28

Oh, sure. Absolutely. You know, you what you could do is also just sort of Google within your network, your health care network, psychologists, or even psychiatrist that have experience with ADHD, but that really needs to be, first and foremost is that that they have to have a strong understanding. And a strong history of counseling. People with ADHD is a very specific and intricate sort of disorder and pops up the same in so many ways, but is really hard to understand. Unless you have struggled with it yourself. Or unless you have been, you know, very intimately involved with somebody who has it. Yes. So it’s Yeah, I mean, honestly, when you just should do basically do your homework on ADHD coaches, because that’s what they do, right? They eat sleep, drink, and recite to ADHD. And so I’m very, very, you know, aware of everything that comes with that particular disorder. I, I am not a therapist, and that I don’t have all of the other common issues that other folks, you know, deal with on a daily basis. I’m strictly ADHD. So that’s really important. Yeah, to find that very Yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  52:49

So in terms of what you talked about, you talked about sort of limiting some of the sensory feedback. So sounds, headphones, things of this nature, creating dogs or managing children just in terms of like stopping the sensory overload or the number of things you need to pay attention to. You also talked about exercise and getting that sort of energy out, but also the endorphins and the the good chemicals in your brain. And then you talked about sort of mapping the brain. And I’m sorry, I don’t remember the exact thing that you mentioned. What was it again?

 

53:28

Yeah, so in terms of health, those things are great. But I would definitely at the top of that, have people understand the importance of an ADHD coach, because they should have all of the tools and the tricks of the trade to put those tools into your toolbox, especially one that understands alcoholism, or substance abuse use disorder. So that’s incredibly important. So exercise, an ADHD coach that can give you a lot of tools and a lot of support, because this is going to be super, super hard. And then neurofeedback training, which is training your brain waves in a different way. So people can look up symmetry, neuro pathway training, and they can be all across America, you know, because they can actually train you at home with the equipment and so it’s something you can do in private too. So those are the three primary things to begin your adventure on tackling the stresses that come along with ADHD to help you in your sober journey. I mean, this shit is hard. It’s so hard for the average person and it’s ridiculously hard for us but that’s okay. It’s a big monster and we’re gonna slay it little by little, it’s gonna you know, chip away at the heart and then we’ll we will wake up one day and will feel so much more peace. Yeah, because it’s the drinking that feeds into all of the shit that we’re already feeling which is the anxiety and the stress Everything overload. So we’ve got to fix one thing at a time. And the first thing to slay, is the alcoholism of Sure.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  55:08

And one of the things that I’ve heard different women talk about who have, you know, probably, you know, had ADHD since childhood and carried it into adulthood. But being undiagnosed is that it’s a huge relief, to figure it out that it makes so much sense. And they realize it’s not their fault. And not only that there are tools to cope with it. And I think that anything you do to figure out why you feel the way you do I know for myself, it was probably a year after I stopped drinking, that I was diagnosed with a mood disorder, and oh, my god, that was, you know, my doctors, like, how do you feel about that? And I’m like, I don’t fucking care. I’m thrilled, like, you’re helping me there is a solution or coping mechanisms for what I’ve been feeling. So I don’t have to feel that way anymore. Awesome. Like, you know, I feel like some of the stigma about a lot of this stuff is going away. It’s just, we’re all wired completely differently. And as we, you know, generations ago, people just didn’t have this. And they thought there was something wrong with them, as opposed to like having diabetes, there are different things. And there are tools to manage it. And you just need to figure out what it is.

 

56:26

Yeah, yeah, that’s so well said. I mean, once you figure it out, then you can say, all right, it’s not Hana, that’s unmotivated. I’m lacking that part of the brain that regulates that. Yeah. Hello. It’s not my actual fault. It’s not Hana. Right. I’m not ADHD. Yeah, I haven’t. But that’s not me. And then the good news,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:48

you can start working on it, I feel like it shifts you from self blame mode and feeling low self esteem at various things to you know, I used to go into work and, and have things and be like, Why can’t I cope with life? You know, and externally, everything looked good. But I was working really hard to make everything look good. And I was like, feeling on the inside. Why can everyone else navigate life without these feelings? Once I figured out oh, there’s a reason for that. I was like, God bless you. Great. Now I’m in now I’m in solutions mode. And I’m, you know, there you go.

 

57:25

That is so true. Yeah. What a great way to say it. I mean, that’s so true. You find out what’s going on, you know, just like if you’ve got something wrong with, you know, your leg and it’s been bothering you forever, you know, just you know, if you’ve when you find out, it’s something you can do to fix it, then it’s just such a weight that’s lifted off of your shoulders. Yeah, you know, and just people understanding that there’s so much support out there for them, and go grab it. Yeah, go grab it.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  57:50

Yeah. And I had a couple other questions that I was just wondering, I mean, I know, in, you know, the past couple years, and I’m talking like 15 years, I feel like maybe since I became an adult, you know, obviously, there’s more awareness of ADHD, there is more diagnosis of ADHD, especially in children. And, you know, I always hear boys being diagnosed with it. And, you know, there is certainly some discussion about like, are we over diagnosing this? Are they just little boys, and, you know, that is how they act. And yet we’re putting, you know, a condition or a label or something on them, versus breaking up the day so they can play outside and not making them sit for, you know, six hours a day and having a 20 minute recess? I know, you work with the parents of kids and helping them understand. But what’s your take on that?

 

58:45

Well, that’s absolutely true. Anybody that says, well, that’s every young kid lets every you know, four year old five year old sister or whatever it is. And yes, that is true. But with ADHD, it affects their lives, their school lives, and their home life to such a degree that people are screaming at each other kids are crying, and they are having massive meltdowns. Not at age three, right, which is the new terrible twos is really at three at least it was for me. But it’s it’s there, they seem to be acting many years younger than they actually are. And that is actual effect. It’s a fact of the brain is has not developed the frontal lobe area, the way that it does in kids that are older. So they say that they’re about two to three years. Acting their behavior is about two to three years behind. Yeah. So parents will say, Oh, my God, that’s why my 12 year old acts like a, you know, a nine year old. Yeah, I mean, that’s a huge difference. Yeah. And then if you go from nine to six, it’s up to three years, generally about two. But just think about that for a minute. Your seven year olds acting like a five year old? Yeah, because they’ve got ADHD. Yeah. And it’s so it has to be to the G agree that it is absolutely. And they have to meet certain criteria, it’s got to be like, the certain number of issues have to be, you know, disturbing their lives to such a degree, that that’s the difference. And that’s up to the parents to understand. It’s up to the parents to look at that, and understand that and be like, oh, yeah, this isn’t this isn’t normal. Yeah. You know, I mean,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:26

I hate the word normal. No, but it is what it is, there is something to be addressed. That is not, you know, some Yeah, in the kids control. So, one of the things I loved when I was talking with you about this is that you actually coached the parents. And so tell me about that, because I’m sure there’s some people listening to this, who are struggling with children with this.

 

1:00:48

Oh, gosh, absolutely. And it is incredibly maddening. If you don’t know what’s going on with your child. Or let’s say you do know that they’ve got ADHD, doctors tend not to set time, right it to explain what that means. And here are some resources where you can go, you know, talk to these people, these people, but you they, they need to get an understanding, first and foremost of what their child can and cannot control. So once the parents understand exactly how their child’s brain works, then they can understand what to expect from your child. That is what they can expect, right from from an ADHD brain, for example, a child is at the dinner table. And for the 13,000,000th time, he’s reached over and he’s knocked over his, his glass of milk because he got excited about things somebody just knocked it over. That’s called impulsivity, right. And oftentimes, a child will learn not to do that after the first or second time, they just will stop themselves from reaching out their hand out of out of excitement, the ADHD child will continue to do that over and over again. And that’s something that they cannot physically control. So getting angry at them for doing that is actually teaching them that they are bad humans, because it’s them that can’t control it. What’s wrong with you? Yeah, can’t control yourself, I’m stealing that milk. Again, this is where I get really teary, because children are everything. To me. That’s why I do this work. But it is such a relief for the parents to understand, Oh, my God, I don’t have to get so mad at that anymore. It’s a mindset shift. If you know your child cannot control this, then you don’t have to condone it, you don’t have to be happy that it happened. But you don’t have to say to yourself anymore. What is wrong with this kid? Why can you just not understand why can she just not get this?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:43

And like, what is wrong of them? disrespecting you? Or yeah,

 

1:02:46

like the biggest, that is the biggest. And then when I when I when I finally you know, coach them through that, and it takes a little bit, a handful of sessions. To get to that oftentimes, it’s it’s, you know, pretty sad. The parents feel really badly about the fact that they were upset. But the great thing is, is that’s okay, because you can teach your children so many things about being wrong about something, learning about it, and then moving forward and changing and what great lessons does that teach your children in itself? Right? So yeah, just I, my, my end goal in life is to help parents so that they can help their kids, I want the children to be okay, because I wasn’t, you know, it led me down some dark paths, because of what it will lead you to if you have no self esteem, and you think everything is your own fault. And it leads to a lot of substance use disorder, because you just want to escape. It’s less about drinking, right? It’s less about using the actual substance itself, but more about escaping your life. Yeah. And that, that that’s with all the overwhelm with everything that’s happening. And so yeah, it’s really tricky. But like I said, if the great thing is, is that we’re all talking about mental health, so much more. And there’s so much, you know, positivity around realizing that you’ve got ADHD, because there’s so much you can do, there’s so much you can do like you we can play this thing you really can can really work on it. So and do you have

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:04:16

any information? I know you sent me a ton of research and studies from Harvard and sources and I’m gonna put them all in the show notes in case people want to research and go deeper. But how prevalent is ADHD in society? I mean, amongst people do you know?

 

1:04:35

The statistics are very sort of all over the place. Because it depends on when the people are getting diagnosed. And so now it seems like it’s a lot more because children are getting better diagnose, and there’s a better understanding and acceptance of it and that it’s an actual disorder, right? Than it is just a condition your brain are actually different. So that’s a, you know,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:05:02

that makes a lot of sense. Because I know that, you know, when when we were children, and certainly when my parents were children, it was not a topic of conversation written about in the news or understood. My question was, I’m just curious, does ADHD present differently in boys versus girls? Or is it the same? And it’s just on a spectrum? Or how does that work?

 

1:05:30

Yeah, no, that definitely presents differently. The stereotypical boys that are hyperactive and jumping all over the place and can’t control themselves is a very real thing. The way that girls sort of present is much more subtle. And so people really have to take a look at their child before they assume that the child doesn’t have ADHD, just because the child isn’t jumping up and down, you know? Like, like, crazy, right? So that was me. But yes, it does present very, very differently. More often than not girls will just seem very spacey, and not responding. Just out to lunch is what it seems like for girls, more so than boys. And then there are those of us that are, you know, basically, boys and girls and has it all. Yeah, and that’s, that’s kind of tricky. But it does present differently. There’s a lot of information out there. And I’ll have that all this on my website, as well. So people can just sort of click on Resources and find information there really easily to gain all of this specific information. So yeah,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:06:41

well tell us how people can find your website and follow up with you if they want to learn more.

 

1:06:47

Yeah, so um, my website is https://www.adhdandmesc.com/. And there you will have every all the programming sort of that I do and resources and other coaches too. So coaches that I love that worked primarily with adults that have ADHD, whereas I’m more sort of focused on the parents that have it and the kids that have it type of situation, or parents that don’t have it, but need to learn how to, you know, manage their kiddos. So yeah, the website has a lot of that information. And yeah, just visit me so we can start to help with that. That is awesome. So I think this has been super helpful. Again, your website, I’ll have it in the show notes along with the studies and the research, but it’s https://www.adhdandmesc.com/.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:07:43

So https://www.adhdandmesc.com/. But I’ll have the link in the show notes. Hanna, thank you so much for coming on here. I think it’s a really important topic and something that a lot of us don’t understand. But I really think you explained it very well and gave people a lot of food for thought.

 

1:08:03

Yeah, great. I’m so glad that you had me on. I thank you so very much and just go out there and get diagnosed and start from there. There’s so much help out there. Awesome.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:08:16