Hi there everyone. Today, we are going to talk about breaking out of the detox to retox cycle with Jenn Kautsch of Sober Sis.

Now you may have heard about Sober Sis – Jenn is a pioneer in the movement of sober minded living. Her work is all about making a conscious choice to be the very best version of yourself to live in an intentional manner creating the life you want. And sometimes that means living alcohol free.

Jenn recognized that alcohol was causing some inner turmoil. It was taking up too much space in her life. And she embarked on this amazing journey to create Sober Sis.

Sober Sis is a tribe of women who are gray area drinkers, no labels, no all or nothing mentality, no horror stories of DUIs and jail stunts. But women who feel as though drinking is a bit more prominent in their lives than they want it to be. Sober Sis is the place to find love, acceptance and support when you don’t fit the stereotypes. But you want to make a change. And Jenn and I met a couple of weeks ago, we were both part of a summit and speakers on taking a break from drinking, breaking your habit of drinking. And I absolutely love Jenn’s energy, Jenn’s approach and all the work she’s doing for women. 

So Jenn, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me. This is going to be a great conversation. I’m glad to have you as my friend out there in this sober minded world that you and I are living in.

Yeah, absolutely. And I particularly when we were talking, I was like, Yes, we have to talk about the detox to retox cycle. Because I know that I lived in that for a very long time. Like I was like, Oh my god, I have to stop drinking. But I just need to sort of reset my body and, you know, take a break, and then I can drink again. And it was this endless sort of Groundhog Day cycle of trying to stop stopping for a short period of time, and then basically poisoning my body all over again and coming back to the same place. 

So to start, I gave my impression of what the detox retox cycle is, but how do you describe it in the work you do?

Yeah, well, you nailed it. That sounded very familiar to me. But yeah, Casey, that was me. Exactly. I was so health conscious still am. But I mean, I was so mindful by day so health conscious making all these great choices, and setting up my life to be so intentional and disciplined in doing all these right things. And literally would turn right around usually around five o’clock that one o’clock time and begin almost systematically undoing all my hard work from the day for every calorie that I’d burned in yoga or walking my dog for five miles, I just undid it with a bottle of peanut ratio. And I’m like, wow, Jenn, what are you doing? And for the longest time, I really didn’t understand why I kept being this yo yo drinker instead of a yo yo diet or and that that’s really where the cycle felt like for me it was seriously like Groundhog Day. Yeah. And were you I was a daily drinker like I was like seven nights a week unless I was trying to cut back

Then like I would make it four days and be like, screw it, you know, but like, were you daily sort of detox retox thing? Or was it more of a like couple days cycle or a couple of weeks off?

Yeah, that’s a great question. Because I did it all.

I went, you know, through seasons where I was pretty much drinking every night, due to opportunities presenting themselves book club, or date night with my man, a networking opportunity. Or maybe just cooking in my kitchen, a storm rolling in time on my back patio. For You know, it all adds up to just one big string of drinking opportunities.

But then I would go sometimes, on these big, you know, whole 30 type cleanses or a 10 day raw food juice only detox, and then I would end the 10 day cleanse with like a trip through the chick fila window by day and then having my Margarita that night. No, I’m back again. 

So whether it was one day, 10 days, I even went a whole year, alcohol free in my late 30s. I learned nothing. I used just sheer willpower, deprivation mindset, and just white knuckled my way through that year.

Ironically, I felt amazing. I looked pretty good after a year of not drinking and being so much younger. And after that whole year of detox, I went back to the retox. So even I had a whole year in between the loop. It’s like, Why did you stop drinking for a year? Were you worried about it? Because I imagine you were kind of like, Okay, I gotta get this in check. Yes, yes, I was starting to kind of, in my heart of hearts feel that red flag that wow, Jenn, you are really looking forward to five o’clock. I mean, you are really getting a little too excited here about your, your drinks tonight, and just how I just ironically, at the time I was homeschooling my kids, which is a long story, it was my choice.

This was pre COVID. And it was just in the interim, we were making a lot of transitions that our family. And so just for the sake of moving and stuff, I ended up homeschooling for a short time. And there I was, like, Mom homeschooler by day, but then I had all these bottles up in the top of my pantry to whip out and you know, either make a mixed drink for my husband and I at home or my bottles of wine in even the mental conflict in the duplicity that I felt like, like, why is it up high? Well, because it’s special? Or am I kind of hiding it? A little bit of both right?

And so even then I started to feel kind of like, wow, you know, this is getting too big in my life. I don’t like the space. It’s taking up, as you mentioned earlier, just the bandwidth of “Am I going to drink? Am I not going to drink? How much am I going to drink? What do I want to portray to my kids about drinking? Do I want to make it such an integral part of my evening?”

Every evening they’re watching me transition from like a mom homeschooler with them all day to now I’m transitioning. It was my transition cue. And then I was kind of mine less kind of numbed out just kind of checked out by night. And because I was with my kids all day long, like many, many people are now they could see almost this, you know, switch was being flipped. And I didn’t like that because that was that double minded, divided mind that I’ve talked so much about having that’s that I was feeling like I was living a little bit of this duplicitous life. And for me, that was super underlining. I did not like that. So that was the catalyst. I was putting on some extra pounds, I was getting close to turning 40 all those things.

So I looked at my hubby. And I said, let’s just get this out of our life and out of our house. And just for let’s do it for a year, I had no idea of any of the quit lit, sober accounts out there podcast, nothing, it was just an idea that I had. And so I had no tools, no support, and just kind of him by my side really to keep me on track when I wanted to go back to drinking because at that time, he was like, yeah, sure, no problem. We’ll do that with you. And so I had a buddy I had a non drinking buddy who ironically now this to that all did the resist stopping for a year now which was so I find that very unique because now that he is a drinker still and has no desire to be alcohol free. And he’s not on this personal journey with me in nor did he start with this journey. When I revisited it, revisited it almost a decade later. He was not on board. I didn’t even ask him to be on board. I knew that it was going to have to be more personal so he was on board.

The first time but not the second time, correct? Yes. It’s how you why or did you ever ask him? No, I didn’t really ask him the first the I think the first time I really let alcohol go out of our lives my life, it had just started to become such an integral part for both of us. Honestly, I don’t think the claws, if you will, of alcohol, were in that deep for either one of us yet. So I think it was easier for both of us to let it go at that time.

Fast forward to six or seven years later. I think that he has his own relationship with alcohol that’s very different than my own. But I think at that point he was he had a different relationship with alcohol than he did when we first stopped drinking, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. I can’t, I’ve had to really say, and that’s okay. At first, it was difficult. And I was waiting for him almost to be the change that I wanted to see in the world. You know, and I realized, I just realized after a while, no, this doesn’t really, it’s not going to directly have anything to do with him. We do influence each other. And we’re going to have to, we’re going to have to partner through this with a lot of communication.

But my lane is not going to be his lane. And I know you’ve dealt with this as well.

If you’re listening to this episode and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®. The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study, sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step-by-step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one-on-one coaching. And The Sobriety Starter Kit® is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it, when it fits into your schedule.  You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time. This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step-by-step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life. You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better, you’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course.

Well, and so I wanted to say to anyone who is listening to this who’s like, I really I’m scared to stop. I don’t want to stop I’m worried about stopping because my partner still drinks and we’ve been drinking buddies, our whole lives our whole relationship and that’s what we do together. Like That was our lives too. I mean, my husband and I he still drinks as well. Not like I did like we used to go out to a restaurant and he’d have one beer I’d have three glasses of wine and you know really be wanting to signal the waitress to get the third glass before it gets awkward right before it’s like clear we need to check. But, you know, he certainly has a beer or two every night. And I never really asked him to stop. I think that I would have if I hadn’t been able to finally stop on my own. You know, the issue was I never I did struggle to stop for a long time but my drink of choice was wine, particularly red wine, but I couldn’t have any wine at my house.

And because he drank beer that was not I wasn’t going to grab his beer and drink it you know and so that I wouldn’t buy him beer for the longest time and you know, but but it is possible to stop if you are clear with your husband or your partner or whoever about what your boundaries are and what you need for support, you know, do you agree with that?

Yeah, I do. And I think that’s an important message that we’re sending out there is, you know, it’s okay to let other people be other people let let other people have their own journey. And that even means, you know, in your own relationship, but I love that you brought up boundaries. You and I were talking about that before we hit record how important boundaries are and that was one area that I was really lacking in was having good boundaries and such as I’m like, a recovering people pleaser. I’m 100%, a recovering people pleaser. And I think a lot of women who drink too much are people pleasers slash a lot of the women I work with are the awesome people pleaser over achiever combination.

So you want people to like you and you don’t want to do anything that might inconvenience them.

It’s Oh, exactly. That’s where I was. And I just didn’t have real clear lines of where, you know, I ended and someone else began, it was just kind of, I think, when people in my family, particularly my husband and our two kids, when they would kind of push up against me, sometimes I was just so soft. It just just they could just roll me over. Instead of going Nope, I don’t want to do that. Or I need to leave. Can we take separate cars? Well, and also like, nails to resentment, right?

You never asked for what you need. And then you’re kind of irritated, resentful.

I know, when I stopped, I was mom with an eight year old and a two year old. And we both worked and full time. And my husband is also a baseball coach and a basketball coach. And he plays on a men’s League, right? So I had work and kids. And he had work baseball, basketball, his own Baseball League, and he went on fishing trips three times a year. And so I was like, pissed. Like, I felt like I got the dregs of whatever time or energy was around, I was constantly asking him, oh, would it be okay, if I go here? Or would it be okay? If I go to this yoga class, and then I would be like, Oh, my God, drinking is my only treat. It’s my only reward. It was my nightly reward. So I got a lot of it. Right?

Totally. Oh my gosh, Casey, I’m so relating to what you’re saying. Because that was my life. Very much. So too. It was almost like drinking was like, my little guilty pleasure. Don’t take it away. Don’t touch it. Oh my god, me too protective of it. Like really? And that’s part of why I really struggled most with drinking at home, often alone. Oh my God, that’s terrible. I know. But I know we’re all blended out there. Or have done it because that’s where I felt like I could just be free without judgment.

And without someone else counting my drinks or any of that was like back off. Stand down. This is my time me time mommy time. I’m on the back patio. I’m cooking. I’m serving you. I’m cooking your dinner now I’m cleaning it up. Now I’m going to go take a bath and I’m going to have my little food bring the wine up to the bathroom while you’re taking your bath. Oh yeah, that was the end of the bottle was in the bathtub.

So for me it was always on the couch you know kids are finally in bed I was clearly three glasses and by that point right because but I would like have glass for glass five and then you know just be watching whatever show right basically having a party by myself on my couch and then I would jump up if my husband you know this is near the end if my husband would go Say goodnight to my son. I would like sprint up have he not moved in an hour. Like open a second bottle of wine pour glass real quick run, like gauge like who knew I could move that fast like a fucking rabbit. And then be like, Oh, honey, I’m still here. Like in the back of your mind. You’re like, I’m only doing this so he doesn’t judge me because he’s so judgy. It would have nothing to do us of course. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And did you like wake up and kind of feel like crap and try to overcompensate?

Oh, Casey Absolutely. I was that high high achiever high performer driven type A.  Okay, now we’re gonna shut it down. Close it down. Don’t overthink I’m going to use even I even used alcohol as a form of a sleep aid in my mind. Oh, yeah, me too. Like what do you do? I was in that stat as well, where I was like, but I needed to stay awake. 

Oh, and I need to fall asleep to so oh man that can I need it pick me up because I’m so tired and, and then when you get away from it, that’s when you’re like, Oh my god, I sleep better I have more daylight. But when you’re in it, it’s very hard to correlate all of this together that the anxiety, the feeling of dread, the flat out just defeat that’s that’s so heartbreaking within yourself. It’s like yeah, broken, you’ve breached this code within yourself of letting yourself down at such a degree that you just can’t even scrape yourself up off the floor in your mind. And you’re just laying there three, I’m going Oh, no, I’ve got to get up and do this all over again in four hours. Yeah, whoa, man. And I was here. And it was so dark in so quiet. And so still, all I had was me my thoughts, and they were the very things I was trying to numb out from or avoid, just, you know, hours earlier, and they all came rushing back in with just that deeper dread. And that’s where the shame storm comes in. And there’s no one there and then in that moment to give you the empathy that Bernie brown talks so much about having well, because you’re trying so hard to have no one see what’s really going on. That’s right in like, you, it was all about waking up, shaking it off posturing, pulling it up, getting it back together, because I could, I was high functioning, getting everything done, in fact, overcompensating and even getting more done than I probably should or could, in a given day to compensate for my lack thereof. And and yeah, those good intentions, those promises, I would just double down on myself with the pressure. And like you would never let yourself rest because you were feeling guilty that you knew you were hung over. So you’re like, I can’t rest because that then you know, you’re I mean, I would never read No. And I was like, Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know. And I mean, I used to, which is insane. I used to always, you know, I was, you know, gaining weight, trying to lose weight, you know, doing the diets but like having five glasses of wine a night, but like eating like very little during the day. And I would get up at 530 in the morning, like three times a week to do this boot camp like this head boot camp with a bottle of wine in my belly doing like burpees and it was so fucking awful. It was.

And I’d be like, no, I have to do this. Right. It’s almost like you’re punitive. You know, punishment of like, paying your dues like paying the Pied Piper. Yes. I looked at my hot yoga. I was like, Well, my god hot yoga, hung over. I cannot imagine over and over. Okay. See, I did so many Bikram Yoga 90 Minute. 110 degree classes. Feeling like rest sweaty out. Yes. pushing myself through in an effort to detox my Yeah. Yeah. So and then and then about 3pm now that we’re back in the cycle 10am Oh, no, I’m not drinking tonight. And maybe I wouldn’t drink that night. Maybe I would feel bad enough that I wouldn’t drink that night. And I would remember, like, remember how bad you feel, Jen. But then for the most part, you know, it, I just kind of work it through. And yeah, it was about 3pm that the wine which was start kind of calling my name and like, oh, you’re overreacting now you’ve You know, you’re just doing the mom thing. You know, it’s it’s the groundhog day of just, you know, dream. It’s no big deal. You deserve it. And maybe you’re just getting older and it’s just harder for you. So just you know, buy the party smart capsules at the checkout and just, you know, water wine, water wine. Yep. Yeah. Nice yourself out better. And again, many times it was sadly, I could drink three or four glasses. And it not affect me to the point that I had a lot of regret the next day. Yeah. Yeah. And then other times, I could have two glasses, and it would completely knocked me on my button. And I’m like, What happened? And the room spinning and I feel terrible. It doesn’t even make any sense. Okay, it was very unpredictable to me. And that kind of scared me my high need for control was ironically, part of why I was drinking was to let go of a little bit of my control. But I also completely lost control because I couldn’t control this beverage, this elixir that tended to have a different effect on me at different times. And so, ironically, I felt more out of control drinking. Yeah, no, I mean, I did the same thing. I wanted to shut my mind down because I was like very, you know, hyper aware, hyper vigilant.

Trying to make sure that like nothing fell through the cracks from my kids sports appointments to doctor’s appointments to work stuff to emails to like. I mean, I remember very consciously, like, I have to set the coffee for the morning and all of my alarms on my phone before I have glass number four, like that was very clear in my mind, because I can’t fuck up and not wake up tomorrow, you know? Right. Yeah, are so similar. I mean, it’s, and I think a lot of it is personalities, you know, in in what we get to do, I’ve gotten to run across a lot of different people and personalities.

And in my alcohol free lifestyle course, we take a week and we talk about our identity. And one of the things we touch on is the enneagram. And I love the enneagram episode on it.

Oh, I’m a huge enneagram person. So I’m a 1 as you. I’m a 3.

Okay, got it.

I thought for the longest time. Yeah, so I understand threes really well. So I’m a one with a strong nine wing. Okay, so tell me about what that means. What’s the one so the one is known as the perfectionist, and or the reformer. Ones love things done right? In things done well and correctly, and there’s kind of a kind of a moral rectitude to one of justice. And in really following through doing the right thing, having a lot of integrity, which again, for me, as this drinker that was living this double life, I felt like, my personal integrity, my alignment was so off, because I knew it wasn’t aligning with really my core values. My, my faith, my faith walk was completely like, Wait, what? You know, you say you’re a Christian. And again, this isn’t about making drinking a sin or right or wrong. moralistically. But where my heart was, is where I was challenged, because I said my heart was trusting God. But was it really when I was pouring that third glass? Who am I trusting then? Yeah, God, trusting the bottle. And that, for me, it was a real red flag because it wasn’t wholehearted at all. I love that. And I love that in your in your course. You spend time on identity, because I think each one of us sort of drinks for a different reason. Like there’s a different impetus there. Like, for some people, it’s social anxiety for other people. It’s, you know, wanting to have more fun. And for me being a three, you know, my core desire, I’m looking at my enneagram. Now, it’s like the Dewar. But it’s like, core desire being valuable, being successful, being admired, being praised, like mostly praised, I would say. And the idea is that, like I need to do in order to earn love, right? 

Like, if I’m seen, as you know, confident, competent, efficient, fast paced multitasking, then I will be worthy and loved and included and sort of kept around. Well, that’s fucking exhausting. It’s so exhausting. And then the only time I felt like I could relax, was when I had some wine in me. And I just like, went to my, quote, unquote, happy place. And, of course, I was happy for two hours and felt like companies are talking shit to myself the other 22 hours. Exactly. Exactly. An s at any gram one, the message I hear is my worth. And value is because I’m good. I’m a good person. I’m doing the right thing. Yeah. And good. And I bring goodness into the world. But oh, I can’t always bring goodness in the world. And I also as a one, we see all the things that need improving. We look around where the person that walks in the room. We’re like, wow, it’s asymmetrical that pillows off, huh. I think I can rephrase. I think this you know, this frame needs to be needs to be straightened. We noticed this and everything in the world around us and the people around us and mainly in ourselves. Yeah, so we’re really looking to improve and constantly fix and make better and so that’s exhausting as well. And so for me that checkout numb out was like, Oh, I can relax cuz I don’t have to fix it all I can do.

And I teenagers when I was really at the height of my struggle, not to blame them. But there was a myriad of things that I could fix that I felt like I couldn’t improve because it was out of my control. And so for me, drinking was a huge release of that pressure that I was putting asked, and it’s so counterintuitive, right? Because you drink to shut your mind off so that you can relax and then drinking also triggers anxiety and inability to cope and being strung so thin, you feel like everything is overwhelming. So it’s like this catch 22 that, you know, when you stop drinking, it gets a lot better, but you still also have to find other coping skills to deal with the very real pressures in your life. Yeah, cuz those feelings can still be there. My challenges didn’t go away. Yeah, my, my main personality, you know, I mean, I think our core really stays the same, we can we can get to a more healthy level, in our identity, we don’t have to stay unhealthy. And we can fluctuate there. But I mean, who we are, we just want to be the best version of ourselves. So yeah, learning how which has been such a process.

Again, I’m learning how to deal with these negative realities, and all the things that I see in this world that I would love to improve and fix goodness, too, it’ll drive you crazy, it’ll dry, I know that you are already doing all those things. Like I can see, as you stop drinking, you are, you know, helping so many people and doing so many amazing things, and really fulfilling your potential. I mean, I really feel like so many women are keeping everything up, like they’re holding everything up when they’re drinking. And once they kind of put that giant way down, they’re able to finally sort of fulfill that potential become who they were meant to be. That’s so true. I mean, really is through my own struggle in weakness, which, again, as a one or a three, especially both of our numbers, and the fact that, you know, we are finding our purpose and our passion and our message through areas where we didn’t feel like maybe we were achieving or doing that, well. Yes, turns out to be the very fuel that we need to connect with other people. Because, you know, if it can happen to so called us, well, it can happen to anyone. And it does, it happens to everyone.

So, anyone listening to this, if you’re like, What’s wrong with me? You know, why can’t I cope? Why can she drink normally? Like, you are not alone? and Jen, I know you do a 21 day reset in sober sis like 1000s of women, right? 1000s of women just like us struggle with this, like, you know, it’s the alcohol it is not you. That’s right, I so needed to hear that early on, because I’ve never heard that before. I thought it was such a moral failure. And like to get it together, Jen, oh, my God, I literally woke up every morning. And like, basically, you know, looked at the wine bottle looked at how much was left. And on a constant loop.

I would be like, get your shit together, Casey and it together. I’m so frustrated with myself. And I’ve had to get it together. Because you can get all these other aspects of your life together. Why can’t you get this together? Oh, I know. And I didn’t realize what I was up against. As far as the chemicals and the substance itself. I had no idea why I was craving and how the craving cycle worked. I didn’t understand any of that. I just thought I was a bad person or making bad choices. And I just needed to be better. So since you mentioned that tell us teach us about the craving cycle. Yeah, well, first off, alcohol really does. And I forgot now who I heard this from or was just flat out silence. But alcohol really does create a thirst for itself. So that’s the thing is when you’re drinking it, we don’t realize that when we step away, we’re going through a mini withdrawal situation, whether that’s just overnight, or Monday through Thursday, before the next weekend. Again, it’s it’s a little mini withdrawal. And that withdrawal for most great area drinkers or people kind of caught in the middle of the drinking spectrum, which is really almost unbearable, because it’s not bad enough, but it’s also not good enough. And so, Whoa, you’re in this No Man’s Land of like, still getting stuff done high functioning, it’s really lonely and painful. So think that’s where the majority of people are, because they haven’t hit that rock bottom. And so that withdraw we typically think of Ooh, alcohol withdraw is you know, the shakes and the tremors and you need to detox. Yes, down the drinking spectrum. You do but when you’re in the middle of the drinking spectrum, nope. It just feels like a lot of anxiety, restlessness. And like something’s just kind of missing. And so when we go for that drink again, we’re getting such a huge dopamine hit. It is firing on all cylinders on that reward center that says oh, this is how you alleviate the feeling, this is the cure, we are dealing creates the low, and then you need this substance to get back to even baseline you just don’t feel well without, to me asks Niki, that that itself is creating the problem.

Yeah, and also trying to become the solution. And that’s the only way to, to let those cravings become less is to get more time away from it, like you said, to get out of the detox retox cycle, I call it the drinking cycle, right? Drink, hit the low The next day, come back up barely the baseline drink again, like that constant loop of like, actually seven to 10 days, give me that give me half of the 21 day reset. before you’re even out of the physical craving cycle. Yeah, give it seven to 10 days, or you’re you’re just never even getting out of the cycle, when you’re a drinker out there, and you’re kind of trying to, quote, be good, you know, and do the right thing or stay on your diet, and you’re not drinking Monday through Thursday, and then you binge drink on the weekends, or hit it hard in front of your Netflix show. You’re never getting out of the craving cycle on a physical level. And so that’s why it’s so defeating because then it feels so good on that fourth or fifth day, if you’ve deprived yourself all week, then you’re like white knuckling it Oh interrelating to drink is like double, which just reinforces the reward to your brain. And that’s why I say you know that first seven to 10 days of being alcohol free, is something I personally don’t want to repeat again, I never want to repeat that again, because that’s where I lived for about five years, repeating, repeating repeating whether it was one day or one week in between, it was still a repetition because I rarely went over 10 days without a drink. That was definitely that’s just about when it starts getting better. Right? Like and I never gave myself the chance. I want to say it was clear poorly. I’m not sure who talked about the obstacle course. And how we keep repeating, almost like the hardest part of the obstacle course again, and again, instead of just climbing the wall, getting on the other side. And then keep going well, and also you feel like if you’re doing that you’re like, I fuckin hate it. When I don’t drink. I’m irritable. I’m annoyed. I’m angry or like some people will say to me, I’m nicer when I drink than I am when I’m not. And I’m like, yeah, that’s just the first two weeks like if you’re doing your first two weeks, I tell women I work with like, you may feel rage, like you will be extra sensitive, completely irritated, pissed off that you’re not drinking because you’re feeling like you’re denying yourself and your your emotional stability is all over the place. But get past those first two weeks, and it really gets better. I actually have a quick story in my first couple of weeks, my husband and I went to a Mexican food restaurant. And boy, everything that you just said I experienced I was not gonna drink that night because I was on whatever day you know 10 or whatever it was very early on. He ordered his beer which was fine. I was really trying to stay my own lane. His beers, his beer, my choices, my choice. And so I tried to order an alcohol free Margarita. And they came to the table and they were like, I’m sorry ma’am. All of our Margarita mix is already pre mixed with tequila in it like we don’t we can’t do that.

And I was like wow, shot down arrows. You know, shots fired. I can’t even order an alcohol free Margarita here. Wow. And I really want the real thing so I went to the bathroom just to kind of get a grip. And Casey I’ll be honest, I shed a tear there Yeah,

I was like grieving kind of like the death of what I wanted. Like I just had to kind of kill it right then. Yeah, I didn’t know if I could do that forever but in that moment, it was just don’t drink gin. Just drink is the hardest thing in that first little bit and I was like I was so determined. And I was really working on a strong Why Why am I not drinking? Because I already know the outcome. I already know if I go out there and order a margarita. I know what’s going to happen I know all you have to do those 10 days again, which is the worst days at that point I mean even a week or two and and I went back out you know I kind of like dried off my little my one tear that fell and when it when it complete cried session, but it was like a moment where I was like, wow, this is hard and I can’t get what I want. And I’m even trying to do the right thing. This sucks. And I went back out to the table and my husband had already ordered a second drink and he didn’t even know that I was struggling. Yes, again.

So used to posturing and so used to minimizing my struggle that he didn’t even know how big I was how much I was struggling. I didn’t even know how much I was struggling until there I was. And I was like, oh, babe, it’s okay, you know, enjoy your dose sec ease or to cut whatever it was. But I just want you to know, I’m struggling right now. And I was able to talk through it. Of course, I got home. And I remember going to bed that night, just going wow, that was close one that was intense. But I have my sober mind, and it is my superpower. And I will go to bed tonight with sober mind. And I will not regret not drinking the next day, when I call that like a breakdown breakthrough moment, like where you build a really big sober muscle where you desperately want to drink and you don’t and then you wake up the next day. And it’s like, sometimes it’s like this big weight has lifted, I felt so much stronger. Because I did it. I made it through. And that was memorable to me. And it’s a story I do tell often to other women who are in that timeframe, because it’s important when you’ve been alcohol free. You know, as long as you I have We’ve been walking this journey for a while. Oh, I can instantly remember. And I’m really glad that God has allowed those memories almost to be seared into my brain. Yeah, because I can remember that, and all the highs and lows emotionally at that time. And I’m so grateful for just every day just sticking with it. Well, what I think is very cool is a lot of the work you do is around really supporting women in those first really difficult three weeks, right? I mean, you do 21 days, I seriously think most women I work with, obviously, those are really hard. And a lot of times people brake around day 16 or 18. Like once they hit day 2021 they kind of cruise for a little while, like milestones are tricky. But they’ve gotten like away from the physical cravings. And then you’re like working on the mindset and the habit. So it doesn’t take that long to feel better. But what do you think is really important in those first 21 days to help women kind of get through day four and day five and day 10? Yeah, one word, connection. Connection is so key. And I’m sure you’ve seen the TED Talk where he talks about connection really is the antidote to addiction. Yeah. And I’ve seen that firsthand in my own life, but really working with so many women. In in this amazing tribe the support, we use an app called Marco Polo. And so there’s instant support when someone is facing a struggle or temptation, or just wanting to hit the eject button. How many people were in Marco Polo within your group at a time? Is it small groups are like big? Nope, we break them up into smaller groups, believe it or not, we put about 20 people in a Marco Polo group. Okay, that’s like a lot. But really, with the amount of engagement, it’s not huge. Yeah, it’s not huge. And so we have multiple marco polo groups per monthly reset. And I work closely with Marco Polo, I mean, like we we’ve really taken their app to the next level, and created hundreds upon hundreds of groups over over this amount of time. That is where the connection piece comes alive with another person. like you and me right now, you know, we’re zooming while you’re recording how connecting this is. Imagine if you and I were in our first month not drinking it found each other. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you’re so cool. You’re so getting it done. And you’re struggling to and I can talk to you about it. And you’d understand. And while you’re strong, maybe while I’m struggling, and maybe I’m really strong while you’re struggling, maybe we’re both struggling at the same time. And there’s there’s kind of an identification in that too. Yeah, so let’s don’t drink together, because this is really hard. And man, that’s a game changer. I hear you because when I was quitting drinking, I was a member like of this secret not drinking Facebook group called the BFB. And I like posted there on day five, and I posted there, you know, afterwards, like we had a little group where it was called the like 100 day challenge and every week so I found I call them my sober littermates. You know, like we all started around the same time but meeting other women who are also on the alcohol free path and get it and seeing that they’re super cool too. And like finding genuine relationships. That’s huge because most of us everyone in our community drinks like we designed it that way our friends, our husband, you know, it’s not a drinker. You don’t know anyone. Yeah, it’s our activity. You know, it’s what it’s what we do, it was it was my activity with most friends.

And in my hobby, so to depart from that, and change it up was so counterculture, as well as just so contrary to my own habits, that I had to replace old habits with new habits, and kind of my old way of thinking and talking and participating in life at five o’clock had to look different. Yeah. So what about those new habits? Because I’m really big on like habit change and your behavior change. So talk about that five o’clock, and sort of what you recommend to women? Yeah, for sure, for sure. I have a free guide out there. If you go to services calm, it is my five tips and tricks for wine o’clock. And one of the first things I say is pre decide, like, you can’t just kind of like, now this is going to be different than willpower and white knuckling it because we don’t, we decided at 10am that we’re not going to drink that night. But what do you do at 5pm. And that’s where you have to really go to those habits. And I’m sure much like you teach. And what you’ve done is I started flipping things around when I had the most willpower was in the morning. But it’s fatigue. decision, fatigue is a real thing. And so I would make my decisions less at 5pm. Not more. I don’t need to make things harder for myself and go, Well, I’m not drinking now, what do I drink, I need to have an alternative. I need to have a plan. And so whether that’s getting out of my kitchen during that time, and having something already made, if that means walking my dog in the evening instead of in the morning, if that means I go to the grocery store at 10am instead of 3pm. Oh my god do not go to the grocery store. When you’re hungry and close to happy hour like they’re getting seen. I do not go to the grocery store while you’re hungry right before one o’clock, you’re going to get blasted because there’s so many points of purchase. And I was a marketing major. So sometimes I talk like marketing terms, points of purchase. But seriously, there are so many places to buy alcohol in like my local target here. There are 25 places within the store separate from each other to buy alcohol. So if you said no to the Prosecco by the blueberries when you first walked in, yeah, it’s over. By the time you get to the cash wrap in the the front aisle, where they’re selling you Oreos, and the $5 bottle of wine. It’s over. Unless you pre decided and pre plan. I used to go to the grocery store in the morning on the weekends, usually after I ate breakfast. And I would put in like a sober podcast. You know, like this one, like the bubble hour while I was going in the store to cut just in my earbuds, like listening to it. And then I would also this is going to date me so much. But um, okay, so I’m 4645 I don’t want to a couple months.

Some, okay, but when I was little like eight or 10 there was a song called poison, like with a dance going to is like that girl is poison. Anyway, I used to sing it to myself in the grocery store when I’d like go buy the wine. Now I’d be like that shit is poison. You know, like the I had lyrics for the whole song. But right. It’s so hard not to pick something up. Oh, ah, yeah. You listen to your music and podcasts in the store. That’s so smart. I actually sometimes I would just stare it down. I’d go. I’d purposely go down the wine or beer aisle, and just look at it.

I see you. Can I talk to you, man, I see you. I’m onto you.

And then all I could see was just a bottle of poison, like you said, and I was Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was almost like I brought it closer to tell it. No. Because before when I tried to quit or take breaks. My goal was to like get away from it so far that I didn’t even acknowledge its presence or learn about it. And now I’m like, Oh, come on in. Come a little closer. Alright, I was the opposite. I avoided it. But whatever works, and I would not buy. Now, it doesn’t matter to me. I’m perfectly happy. But for my first six months, I would not buy my husband beer. Like, you know, I would go to the store and I’d be like, Nope, not buying me that because I was jealous that he was drinking and I didn’t want to pick it up and I was a little bit like fuck you if you want to buy beer in your head, but I’m not doing it for you. Well, I haven’t bought alcohol either in four years. You haven’t. So I buy it for my husband now But to this day, five years later, I don’t have wine in my house because I don’t drink it and my husband, no beer and I was like fuck that. No way. Same here don’t have it in my house. Now he has his beer fridge in the garage, or the man cave. They don’t buy it but I

Don’t buy it. Yeah, someone wants to BYOB it into my house because that is their drink of choice. I’ll open it, I’ll pour it and then I’ll send you home with it. Well, I do the same thing. And by the way, speaking of boundaries, those are strong, good, healthy boundaries. Like I tell people, I’m like, hey, if you want to come over, you’re like, if I’m having a party, I’m like, we have x, y, z, you know, we have these drinks, you know, man, a couple.

If you want to bring wine or beer, go ahead, BYOB. And it is not awkward or uncomfortable or bad. Like, when I used to go to parties, I would always bring a buttload to our wine. Guess what, because I wanted to have enough. So you know, it is no big deal to just be like, here’s what we have BYOB, and then at the end of the night, you can be like, Oh, hey, or take this with, you know, like, solely natural. Yes, I agree. And that’s exactly what I do as well. So yeah, I don’t I don’t purchase it. Because if I’m gifted it. Personally, this is just my choice. I don’t really tend to read gifted, I just kind of chunk it. Oh, I my husband knows what he you know, everybody knows, I don’t drink that. But I would really gift it because I would come into work. And like we’d have a big, big win. And there would be like bottles of champagne or wine at everyone’s desk. And I would be like, Oh, actually, I don’t drink. Why don’t you? You know, yeah, this and in the early days, I’d be like, I’m doing a health challenge. Here gift to you, which by the way makes you popular. But now my husband gets gifted stuff at school because he’s, he works in a school and and parents always gift him stuff. And right just gifts it if it’s wine, he does not bring it home. And he just gives it to like his admin or a teacher who did a great job. So it’s not a big deal. And the other thing I know you’re big on mocktails. And I want to talk about that. But like going to parties. I always bring my own drinks, right? I always like I love non alcoholic beer. Some people aren’t cool with that, but I love it. Or like, Gruvi, like, nonalcoholic Prosecco are bubbly. But in the same way that I used to bring two bottles of wine to events. I feel no awkwardness, bringing my own beverages. I’m happy to share. But I’m just like, oh, here’s, I brought my own. You know, what do you think about that?

Totally, I agree with you. And I do think it’s a personal choice. And you’ve got to do what works for you. For me in a beer mocktails. Or even just all of these new zero proof options out there that aren’t even mocktails per se, they’re really intricately made zero proof drinks that are so new on the market that they’re that they’re unheard of. I love exploding. I love that all the way there’s a market there for non alcoholic stuff, you are not alone. They can’t keep the stuff in stock. Like I’m going to try to buy stuff and they’re like sold out pre order. And I’m like what? I know, I know, I buy stuff here locally at total wine. And a lot of times they’re sold out of some Oh my God, I will not go into total wine. I am impressed by you. Because I just it’s an I go to the grocery store. And they actually really good non alcoholic beer there now not like oh duels and crap. Like, I love athletic Brewing Company. Right? But and I’ll order online, like, you know, everybody has free shipping. But like, I don’t think I would go into total wine like that’s too much PTSD or something. It is a total trip. Because actually, it’s, I really enjoy it. Because, again, this is just my mindset. And this is what works for me. So again, Know thyself and do do what works for you. And if that’s not going into a liquor store, especially early on. So I probably didn’t do this my first six months. This was probably later on that I’m like, yeah, I’m going to total wine because I used to go into total wine just to sample throughout the store. So I could get a buzz on while I was buying. Oh, yeah, whenever I was buying. So I get it. I mean, it’s a big deal. But now I walk in and I’m like, look at all this poison hit in what a huge industry This is. And I have so much choice in here. Because I don’t choose that I don’t but I do choose this. And so instead of walking in and saying, I can’t, I can’t I can’t have I walk in and I say I get to go to the alcohol free section and I get to support them in an alcohol store where I want to cast my vote that says there is consumer demand. There is a product need for this. I’m kind of I kind of look at it like and again. That’s the reformer part of me. Yeah, when I guess I’m like, I’ll cast my vote in total wine, or groovy and athletic and all I could go on and on with ritual and all the names because I also want my voice to be heard in there and then I end

Then I go up towards the cash wrap to pay out. It’s all in a step. And I’m sure people are like, oh, wow, she’s really loading up. Yeah, I am. And they have that little bin where all the two three ounce bottles are for your purse or the airplane, or whatnot. And they’re all jumbled in there. And it looks so gross to me to see these little vials of poison that people take just to, just to get them through 20 minutes. I mean, if even, and I look at it, and I feel so free, I feel such a gratitude and humility in my heart, like, Oh my gosh, God, thank you that I’m so free that I look at that. And that no longer appeals to me, it almost solidifies even deeper, my not only my resolve, but my authentic freedom, because it makes me just leave. They’re like, Oh, my gosh, look at all I just got to buy and look at all the ways that I got to exercise my control and power for good into gilgit. Yeah. And so for anyone listening to this, like in your first six months, do not go into a liquor store total wine, if you do not think that’s healthy, because I could see for me, that would be a huge trigger, and just unnecessarily making me long for shit. But I also want to say what you said about feeling freedom. I know so many women listening to this are like, Oh my god, am I gonna long for this and not have it to have that longing, that jealousy, that desire for the rest of my life? And the answer is no, you will not always feel the way you feel right now you will absolutely get to that point where you’re like, Fuck that. I don’t want that. And you don’t have that craving and you don’t have that desire, like exactly what Jen was talking about. Like, you’ll just be like, Oh, God, that used to make me really sick. I do not want that in my life anymore. Yeah, yeah. And it’s liberating. And it is a process. It is a process. And so I’m glad you said that too, to be patient with yourself. And if you’re not feeling that way yet, and it’s been weeks or months, just keep going. I really think that first year is really key to do everything for the first time. A little sacred space that first year. And we’re everything’s a first it’s, it’s like flexing that muscle every change you get, but also not going in walking into a gym and lifting 100 pound barbell. I mean, like, Yeah, do that you’re gonna break your arm, when a lot of times your fear of event is is more than it is.

But you do have to give yourself the chance to like prepare for it like mentally and even the stuff you buy the stuff you bring who you tell you’re not drinking, like someone’s first vacation to Mexico, or someone’s first wedding or holiday with your parents, like, you know, really being aware of what is going to be difficult, what is triggering what support you need, like, if people have a lot of conflict with their family and their family drinks a lot, like rent an Airbnb nearby and use whatever excuse you have, or need, and you can have, you’ll probably be happier. Because by the way, if you have issues with your family, like, you know, forget about the drinking, you will probably just enjoy the holidays more but like, you know, spend the money you used to spend on alcohol to do things that will bring you genuine comfort and joy and ease. You know, that’s so true. reallocate? That’s what I always tell people, I’m like, reallocate? Yeah.

And it’s so true love that suggestion on when you’re traveling, or around family is to give yourself a high amount of autonomy and boundaries there just to give yourself the space so that you’re just you can kind of come up for air, if that’s a high triggering situation, which it often is. So I know so much of your work, which I absolutely love is those first three weeks, those first 21 days I know you have another program that’s longer. But it when you’re in the detox retox cycle and in your course like what are the pieces that are really key that you run through that you think help women break out of that? Yeah, well, everything in both the 21 day reset and in the AFL alcohol free lifestyle course. Both of those start with our Why is so foundational to figure out really why we are drinking. Why is it that we don’t want to drink or want to drink less. And again, I think women entering the 21 day reset with the goal of just you know, kind of tapping the brakes and learning how to drink less or not at all. So it’s a very wide gate there at the beginning to really say hey, do you want just to play store?

Wrestle with this out loud, and just even talk about your relationship with alcohol without having to decide, never, I’m never drinking again, right on, right? When you start, it’s almost like, well, I just need to take a 21 day break, so that I can get some tools. So in the 21 day reset, I really share the best of what I found that worked for me initially, kind of curating really from from all of the experts and podcasts and programs and all the things I’ve learned how I took that into my own experience and kind of made it work for me. And so we talked about topics like mindset, marketing to women, how to deal with social things,

what to do with your spouse drinks, how to handle that. I talked a lot about guilt around drinking, do we really even drink for the taste? What do we do with anxiety and stress? And how does alcohol specifically impact that feel like the 21 days is really just looking at alcohol so differently, and that’s kind of my guarantee, if you will, kind of my, my guarantee for the 21 day reset is that you will never look at alcohol the same.

I’m trying to disrupt the status quo in your life in the living on autopilot, or the feeling just hopeless, because you feel so defeated, and you don’t even know where to start. If you could have some connection, and get some new understanding of what alcohol really is and what it’s really doing to you, then you’re gonna feel more empowered to make a better choice. And so I talked about the pitcher plant that I learned from Alan Carr, and how we just buzz around the top of drinking like, well, I can leave at any time and you can until you can’t. And so I talk a lot about that. And just, you know, I learned from Jolene Park when I watched her TED Talk, really this new concept of gray area drinking and I educate other women as to this this is a real thing, and deprivation mindset and just the war inside. I love that. I mean, I absolutely do.

And that was one of the reasons I started this podcast, right because we’ve been so brainwashed, not just for marketing and all the that is insane once you open your eyes to it, but also just like we’re in this sort of circular firing loop where we bought in our friends have bought in our parents have brought in society has bought in to all the stories we’re told that like alcohol has this like privileged, required place in our lives that would that we needed, that life is less fun without it, etc. And nobody is talking about all the things you talked about. Like I brought Jolene Park onto the show, she did an episode on gray area drinking, which is fantastic. I’m actually before this comes out I will have just interviewed William Porter who wrote alcohol explain about just all of the things right about explaining what alcohol does and and why moderation is is almost, you know, impossible once once you’re sort of in that withdrawal cycle or once you have that hip hit of dopamine. And just having those conversations are something that most women like those resources they don’t even know is out there because we talk about at work. Like I remember sitting around the office. Everybody talked about their cleanses. Everybody talked about their whole 30 everyone talked about how they were trying to quote unquote be good with eating but then weren’t able to or they’re trying this new thing. If you mentioned alcohol, it was like dead silence like nobody was having that conversation.

Totally Oh, that’s so true. We’re all drinking it and no one’s talking about it. You know, you don’t want to be labeled or it’s all wired or you know, I could bring up alcohol without a meme or without a joke or without the glamour and glitz of it all is just it just falls flat out there. Or like you said for me I know, I was so afraid of being labeled or misunderstood or like Dude, I just want to talk about it and to talk about it. I’ve got to let you know that I’m struggling a little bit with it. And if I let you know I’m struggling a little bit with it, then oh my what does that mean? Are you going to treat me different? Are you going to look at me different? Are you gonna watch me if I pour a glass of wine, it’s just it was felt too risky. And again, coming from coming from a faith background that that is kind of a niche that I want to bring to the table in such a great discussion kind of a roundtable discussion of so many great people in this conversation, which are most of the women in your community also faith based. I would say a lot are not

but I would say a lot are because I think a lot of women picture this. It’s like, you know, at the watercooler in your corporate job. There’s like the Bible study in the church world. Yeah. Well, you know, we’re going to talk about certain things in our Bible study. And we’re going to not talk about certain things in our Bible study. And alcohol is certainly on the taboo list. Oh, really? So I don’t just full disclosure, I don’t go to church. I’m not religious at all. Yeah. So like, I don’t know what’s talked about it. But yeah, alcohol is is one of those kind of like you would say, in a work situation where people are like, third rail. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, unless you’re joking about being hung over like it’s not, it’s not it’s not safe to talk about so as a Christian Mom, I had like the devil down it was like double shame, double failure, double isolation, double down. Because now and throw my personality type in there to being an enneagram one, okay, triple down of shame and like, not good. And like get it together and like you’re living a double life. That’s, that’s wrong. And it was really not in my personal relationship with God that I was feeling that way. It was really my relationship with myself and other people that I was that way. Well, people are always say, like, when you finally stopped drinking, like your insides match your outsides right, right are in alignment, you don’t have this big secret that you don’t want. Like, I used to go to the bus stop in the morning standing with my eight year old with my little two year old alongside me. And if other parents were there, I wouldn’t want them to look at me too closely, or in the back of my mind, it’d be like, if they knew I drank about one night, they might not want their kids to hang out with my kids. And it was not to that point at all. 

But I certainly felt it was something that was in the back of my mind that I was like, they I don’t want them to know this. I don’t want them to know this about me. Because if they really knew me, would they still like me? Would they still respect me? Would they still trust me? Do I even know like or trust myself? Yeah. So well. And now like, I think one of the benefits of not drinking and being cool with it is like, all of that chatter is gone. Like your mind is so much less quiet. You’re just, you know, I don’t know, if you I don’t really like the word recovery. That’s not my jam. I, you know, in my mind, like, when I was drinking daily or weekly, I was recovering all the time. Like, I was constantly recovering from drinking. Now I’m just living like, I don’t, you know, it doesn’t very much the same.

In fact, a lot of the language I use in sober says really so versus is short for sober minded sisters. Because I love this term. And I, everyone that has worked with me knows that well, and I kind of describe it sober minded. To me, it’s different than even saying I’m sober. Which is not really I don’t really use that word a whole lot, even though I’m okay. So versus But yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, it’s really short for sober minded sisters is just too long. It’s so it’s really stuck.

But I really like saying, I’m sober minded because to me, that that really means a broader picture of my whole life. I’m present. I’m awake, I’m aware I’m alert in my own life, like look alive, Jenn, you have an enemy out there. This world is hard and harsh. Be sober minded. And it’s it’s guarding and protecting you as well. Yeah, so I like that. And I also use words like alcohol free lifestyle, and, you know, being the best version of myself versus sober or recovery or addiction.

And I find, too, that those words in dealing with so many gray area drinkers are not words that people really resonate with in the gray area. Because, again, maybe maybe there’s so little aspect of fear, denial. Well, you don’t need it, right. You don’t need it. Like, I basically tell people, I mean, you know, other than my podcast and my work, because everybody now now I’m out. But for years, I would just say, Oh, I quit drinking, or I used to drink and I don’t anymore. And I’m even on my, on my and somehow I’m weird, because I also want people to know that I used to drink like, not in an embarrassed way, but and this is like, I’m like, I’m not one of those people who never drank like I actually used to drink a lot. Yeah, right.

Right. So I totally know what you mean. Like I describe myself as a recovering corporate ladder climber, a retired people pleaser and an ex red wine drinker like that’s like yeah, like who I am? Yeah, I like that. That’s good. Yeah, I know. And we talked earlier, I am working on the recovering recovering people pleaser, I’m getting way better about it.

And, and it by the way, it feels a lot better. And it’s not as hard as you think that’s true. Practice makes well progress, I would say. progress over perfection. Yeah. And presence over performance. Yeah. Well, I absolutely love the work you do. I hope anyone listening to this got some really good stuff out of this and new information that they didn’t have before. Will you tell us like how people can find you. And just a little bit about the work you do. And you know, all that kind of good stuff. Yeah, thank you so much for the opportunity to do that on your podcast. And so I do have the 21 day reset that starts the beginning of every month.

But if women aren’t even sure about that, and you just need something for tonight, that you’re just like, Jenn, I just want to check you out and get some practical tools for tonight, I really recommend going to sobersis.com, easy to remember. And there, you can download my free guide, and get on my email list and just get to know me, because I do send out emails that are just a value, I hope to you on a daily basis, where you can just get a little nugget. And if you if you like what you’re reading, or you just know for sure that you want to try this 21 day reset. And I’m sure you’ll put the links below. But if you go to 20 services, comm forward slash 21 Day Challenge, you can sign up for whatever next reset is going on. And so that is where hundreds of women are coming every month in joining together in this big group, but then breaking up into these small groups, which is where real connection is happening. And then for many after the 21 day reset, they’re like, Man, I’m feeling so good. I just not quite ready to, to. For this to end, I want to keep learning I want to keep going I do have a 10 week online course. And I’m very active in that on a weekly basis doing like live q&a, zoom calls, and really rolling up our sleeves into how to handle obstacles, boundaries, self care how to course correct, really get practical there and give you the foundational tools. And then after that I’ve just launched here in 2021, my latest thing, which is called Project 365. And I take women through their first year of being alcohol free celebrating all their first and creating opportunities to connect with others who are really wanting to go the distance. And again, just committing to a year, because I think that’s how it works is almost setting small goals, crushing them, getting to the next goal, but doing it with support along the way. And so yeah, it’s not like 2193 65 Yeah, for some people. They’re like, I just need one one night to help. And that’s where I say go back to my free guide. Yeah, there. That is awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on here. I really appreciate it, for sure. Look forward to some stuff you and I can do together in the future. Yeah, that would be wonderful.