SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking, people, sober, alcohol, life, nonalcoholic beer, fucking, good, thought, feel, fixed mindset, learning, label, community, sobriety, recovery, cigarettes, growth mindset, beers, years, alcohol-free lifestyle, label, recovering, sober and recovery space, 12-step meetings, thriving, pages, influencers, groups, go booze free, A.A., path, history does repeat itself, millennial generation, Gen Z, anti-tobacco movement, shame, symbol. dry life, 1000 hours, Instagram page, celebrating, living life without alcohol, fear-based model, principles, white knuckling, cisgender white woman, privileged, sober curious journey, badge of honor, accessible education about the dangers of alcohol, Psychology, Marketing, metaphors, hindsight, 20/20, podcast, panic attacks, anxiety, sober influencers, nonalcoholic beers, nonalcoholic Prosecco, mocktails, fixed mindset, fixed traits, growth mindset, what our culture perpetuate, positive reinforcement, neuroplasticity, changing our language is important, a healthy choice, quit drinking, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), dialectical behavioral therapy, psychoanalysis medication, self-work, getting into practices of meditation, exercising, self-care, building your own foundation, purpose, coping mechanism, how do I keep myself in that emotional green zone?, online support system, sober curious, energy levels, safe space, accountability guides, training your mind to do something different, knowledge is power, building a community, all-encompassing

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Kayla Lyons

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Welcome to the podcast. This episode is about the dry life and specifically choosing a lifestyle, not a label. My guest today is Kayla Lyons, who is the 28-year-old founder of 1000 hours dry and the host of The Dry Life podcast. She stopped drinking at 23 years old, which is incredibly young. I didn’t stop till I was 40. So I am amazed and impressed. But Kayla, welcome to the podcast.

 

01:53

Thank you so much for having me. How are you today?

I’m doing well. I’m doing well. I’m really excited to have this conversation. Because I think that your approach at 1000 hours dry, of being an alcohol-free lifestyle, rather than a label of being an addiction or recovering from addiction, welcoming all people is really exciting.

 

02:16

Yeah, I mean, I think because I came from a background where I originally did use the label, you know, I did get sober at 23. Like you said, I feel like when I say that it seems so long ago, right? It’s like five years, but in the in the sober and recovery space, that is a really long time, because there’s so much that has happened over the last five years. And when it comes to, you know, community availability, kind of just modernizing, you know, when I got sober five years ago, I went to treatment. And when I was getting in trouble in school, or even before then High School, like, it was always going to these alcohol classes, right? Or then, when you get older, oh, well, we recommend, you know, 12-step meetings. And so, that was really the only thing that I was ever told that I could do besides, you know, go to therapy, and I was already doing that. So, you know, I that’s what I did for about, I’d say probably like two years. And it’s what I needed at the time. But then, you know, for me, I really grew out of it. And then I think especially as a young person in recovery, you know, I went to young people’s meetings and stuff like that. But at the same time, I really, I didn’t want to create a life that would like, was sobriety, sobriety, sobriety. And I you know, then I get to do other things. So I got sober because I wanted to have a real life. I didn’t get sober. So I could like live in the rooms, and then kind of have a life outside. And I just felt like I couldn’t get that from what I was doing.

 

And so, I kind of ventured outside of what was like, you know, now considered, you know, traditional recovery. And what I found was, there’s a lot out there for other people that, you know, are interested in doing that traditional 12 steps. And I knew there were people, but I didn’t know how to find them, you know? So that’s kind of what you know, sparked my idea in starting the DRI club and starting the, 1000 hours drive challenge. Not very altruistic, right. Like I really just wanted to find friends like I was like, crap, how do I need How do I need other sober people that aren’t necessarily affiliated with a 12-step program or you know, people I knew in rehab. And that was like, right at the beginning of the sober like Instagram community. I can name you know, like, only a couple people that were really active back then. And then it started thriving. And now there’s numerous communities and pages and influencers and groups. It’s just a really amazing what’s happening. And I’m really like, excited to be a part of it.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 05:06

Yeah, I love that because I actually, so we quit drinking about the same time I just hit five years, a couple weeks ago. And when I first kind of was like, oh shit, I have a major issue with drinking, and I might actually have to stop and fuck, this is my worst-case scenario with eight years ago. And so at that time, I found some, like, secret private Facebook group, where people were, you know, trying to go booze free, and that was huge for me. But when I first posted there and connected, you know, there really was only a, maybe a couple other things, but a was the main way. So, you know, a woman who lived in Seattle, I was in Seattle, she was around my age, you know, seem to have very similar interests. You know, she was a lawyer, I worked in corporate, she was four months sober and going to a so she kind of was like, you want to come with me to a meeting? And I was like, well, bucket list. Fuck it. Why not? You know? Yeah, I thought I’d do this.

 

So I went, and I ended up going for about four months, but very similar to what you said, it wasn’t. It wasn’t the life I wanted to leave. You know, a lot of people absolutely love AI. But the pressure there is keep coming back. Right? Keep going out. Go to the meeting. If you drift away, it’s, you know, super negative. And like you I want to, you know, I always say that not drinking is the foundation that allows me to live the life I want to lead. It is not the end all be all of how I want to live my life every day. So I love that in you know, five years ago, when I came back A.A. wasn’t my path. Because there was a lot more out there. So I love that, you know, a lot of people are adopting alcohol free life, regardless of whether they have a really problematic relationship with drinking, which I did. I was like bottle of wine following her half of wine a night like 365 nights a year. But it is like it’s getting so much more normalized.

 

07:10

Oh, yeah, I think it was something that I don’t want to say was bound to happen. But I mean, history does repeat itself. And, you know, the millennial generation, my generation Gen Z, I think we’re a lot more conscious about what we’re consuming, and sometimes we go overboard. Sometimes we’re oversensitive. But I think there’s a lot of good things coming out of the fact that we have so much access to information, the internet and technology, this, you know, complete wave of availability, for people to just get to know whatever they want to know, really, whenever they want to know it, like when you felt your phone, your laptop, you know, like instant answers constantly. And so, you know, when I think about, you know, and not whenever I say 50 years ago, I keep thinking, it’s like, 2000 Yeah, I’m like, crap, it’s 2021. Okay, like doing the math in my head. I’m like, so really, like seven years ago, like, I always reference like the 1950s, like mad men, you know, everyone’s smoking inside, everybody’s drinking right in the morning. Like, there’s one scene, Aaron, where he’s like, he puts like milk and whiskey together in the morning to like, nourish this hangover. And I was like, that’s fucking disgusting.

 

Yeah, but I probably would have done it. Like, you know, what, no judgement. It’s not that, in the 1960s people were stupid. They just weren’t educated, and they didn’t have the same access that people and 2020 have to information. So, you know, nobody’s going around smoking cigarettes and drinking 24/7, because, like, Oh, well, I know, it’s going to kill me, but I just enjoy it too much, you know, the information just wasn’t there. And then, you know, in the 1970s, the anti-tobacco movement happened and, you know, it took a while it didn’t just happen overnight. But you know, after a decade or so, people really started to stop smoking. This is where I feel like health, there’s a healthy amount of shame. Like I’m not anti-shame because I think if you do shameful things, you should be shamed. But you know, that’s how we got rid of cigarettes, right? Like, Yeah, we took them out of everywhere we made them less available the warning labels are all over the place. Yes. And we just made it something undesirable because if you think about it, right like it you literally went from being this symbol of like, it’s sexy you do it after sex you do it like before sex everything around it is like it’s attractive. And now it’s literally the opposite. Like what I know personally, like I don’t smoke, and when I’m around it like I don’t like it. I don’t like the way it smells. And you know, my both my grandfather’s one had a heart attack very early from smoking and My other grandfather just passed from COPD, or it’s all, you know, cigarette, cigarettes. But when you’ve been doing it your entire life, you know, it’s hard to change your ways. And I think of it as trying to take people out of the matrix. Yeah, I know, after a certain age, you can’t do it. So, that’s why I think for me, when people say, you know, what’s your demographic with like, the dry life and with, you know, with the alcohol-free movement, and for me, I think, you know, it’s really for everybody. But when I, when you have a target audience, right, you can’t necessarily aimed for everybody because, you know, speaking to somebody who’s six years old, and speaking to somebody who’s 25 years old, they’re gonna have totally different priorities, interests, you know, lifestyles. And so we chose to really kind of hit the, like 25 to 45 range, because that I think, is still when people are finding themselves figuring themselves out, and you’re still readily able to make a lot of life changes, and it’s not as difficult like, you’re not so super stuck into your ways.

 

Yeah. And you have a lot to lose, right? Like, I know, like, I’m 28, I still have a ton of life to be had. But that was one thing that really scared me. And I think why I chose sobriety is, you know, I was really, in a bad place, like, you know, it takes a lot of people a lot of time, sometimes, like, I had no progression. My drinking started off bad and bad. Like, there was no middle ground, or there was no point at where I was like, Oh, you know, I didn’t have a problem. Like I started with a problem and ended with a problem. So it was easier for me, I think, to know, from the beginning, that this was never something that was going to work out long term, kind of when you get into a bad relationship, and you’re just like, you know, this is really fun. And it’s dangerous. But this is not who I’m going to marry. This is not you know, who I’m going to end up with. And I always knew that about alcohol. But I’m like, I’m a very gritty person. And that’s sometimes bad, because I just don’t give up on things until I absolutely have to. And that’s kind of that low between 16 and 23. When I was drinking, which isn’t a long amount of, you know, time, like I go into their brains and be brutally like, like, just they wouldn’t, they basically would say like, well, you haven’t really been drinking long enough to know that you have a problem. Or you’re too young to know, you know, like you haven’t even really started and stuff. And it’s like, why would you ever tell somebody that he’s trying to get sober, like, it shouldn’t matter. That’s that whole idea of qualifying really bothered me.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 12:53

If you’re listening to this episode and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit. The Sobriety Starter Kit is an online self study, sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step-by-step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one-on-one coaching. And The Sobriety Starter Kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it, when it fits into your schedule.  You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time. This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step-by-step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life. You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better, you’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course.

 

I would think that it’s amazing and they would be so, you know, sell breathing that you’re discovering it so young, but I guess, in the rooms, there is such an emphasis on talking about your bottom and sort of constantly reminding yourself and others about where drinking brings you, which is very true. But I also love the fact that so many more people and I see 1000 hours dry Instagram page, every day, people are really celebrating all the wonderful things about living life without alcohol, and how good it is versus the you know, sort of fear based negative reminders that, you know, “you’re an alcoholic”, and you have a disease and, you know, other people may be able to drink but you cannot.

 

Yeah, I understood that the fear-based model works for some people, but I think in general, it does not. And it’s been proven that it doesn’t work, right punishment, overall doesn’t work. That’s what builds resentment. That’s what builds, you know, like, a bad cycle. Rebellion, even.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 16:00

Totally, totally, I know, when somebody tells me what to do. I’m like, fuck you, I’m gonna do it, even if I don’t want to. But kind of, you know, why, why I stayed in the program was a, you know, parts of it did speak to me, like, you know, I tell people all the time, like AI was a big part of my foundation, I needed at the time I needed the community, I needed the support, and I needed a lot of the principles that they have to offer. And that’s why it was really important for me to bring some of those principles to the drive club, and have principles because you know, like you said, being alcohol-free or being abstinent or sober, you know, whatever your drug of choice is, that’s the first step, is to stop using. But then after that, like you can’t just not use, that’s white knuckling it, you’re not going to recover, you’re just gonna be miserable. And you might even be a worse person, because you’re not using and so, you know, I loved the whole idea of, you know, having commitments and being of service to the community that like still to this day, like, for me, that’s my number one. Give back is like, How can I be of service to others in recovery today? And, but what kind of freaked me out in a good way? I was noticing that, you know, like, so many people in the rooms had lost so much. You know, like, they’d come in and they’d lost their families, they’ve lost all their friends, they’ve lost their job. And I saw my future. Really, you know, because I was not a gray area drinker, I was, you know, like we talked about before, you know, I was drinking, I was bringing vodka to class, I was drinking and driving, I was getting arrested. You know, I was getting hospitalized, like, there was really no chill. And so, you know, even though I didn’t lose anything, the thing was, at the time, I didn’t have anything to lose, right? I’m like, 21, I’m in college. I’m in this bubble, that I think, you know, I’m out in the real world yet. I don’t have a family, I don’t have you know, really anything. I don’t house, I don’t have a job. And so the consequences that did come were like, okay, you’re getting suspended from school, but I didn’t take it seriously, you know, or even then back then they, they had us on the honor system for community service. And I’m like, why would you trust me, I’m a criminal. And I would, I would, like, you know, and they, they would make us like, go pick up trash. And, you know, I just use that as an opportunity to meet other, you know, people doing that shit and make friends and I would throw parties instead. And just use all the beer cans and fill up the trash cans. They would give us trash bags that were supposed to fill up and leave in certain places you would drink and then fill up the trash.

 

18:51

Oh my god, I just throw parties and use that. And so like, you know, I was living. And a lot of it was privileged, right? Like, I am a cisgender white woman. And I was living at the time, like, I was living in these predominantly white areas. And so, I like, in the time, like, probably where I was getting in trouble the most. And the way the worst of it was in College, which was in Blacksburg, Virginia, which was up in the Appalachians and I mean, I got I’ve been arrested for assault twice. Um, I was hospitalized and like 51,52 against you know, like, I did not comply twice. Yeah. And I never went to jail.

 

You know, I would get the drunk tank, or I would get like the suit. I would never actually get the drunk tank I would actually always be putting like the suicide room excited being like the little classroom away from everybody else because they were like, this is fucking crazy. And, you know, I just I was on probation for like, five years like straight, just straight fucking probation for five years taking Ingerman Management classes. The judge was always like, really, like lenient, you know, and it clearly didn’t do me a service because I kept going. And then I ended up going to treatment because it was court ordered because finally, before I had left school, I was on probation. I assaulted my boyfriend at the time, then I called the cops on myself, because green just, totally, you know, I think internally I like just really wanted to stop, but I didn’t know. Um, and finally, like, you know, I have the same judges whole time, the same probation officer, the same lawyer, and they were like, Alright, well, like, you can either give me this option, you can go to treatment, or you can go to jail for three months. And I was like, okay, not going to jail. So I’ll go to treatment, whatever. Um, and that’s kind of when I think my actual sober curious journey began. Because up until then, I never really took it seriously. I just always kind of wore it as this like badge of honor. Like, I think a lot of college kids do, because there’s all these, like Instagram accounts, like barstool sports and stuff that like, really, they’re posting all these videos of people being, you know, blasted, or they’re breaking stuff, or they’re just doing crazy things that it’s getting. It’s like escalating. It’s like, how crazy can we get? And it scares me, because if I was still drinking, I probably think a lot of that stuff was still really funny.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 21:38

Yeah, I mean, I loved college, but I played rugby, women’s rugby, in college. And so on the rugby team, you know, you may know, but like it, you play the game, and then you party with the other team. And it is cake stands and shoot the boot like chugging races, and we used to cake runs where you run after a car. And then whenever the car stops you drink. And it was I mean, absolutely dangerous drinking, you know, I was still going to classes and getting A’s and all this stuff, despite doing this, but it definitely normalized hugely problematic drinking and in my college, they had some Paul Newman Day, where everybody on campus was supposed to drink 24 beers in 24 hours. So you start in the mind in the shower. And so I mean, I think unlike cigarettes, like you were talking about before, drinking is still sort of, you’re right back in the 1950s. Where every TV show every movie, every social gathering, like it’s glamorized everywhere. I’m the same way that it used to be for cigarettes with all the stars smoking and you know, sophisticated women smoking and it being the thing to do. So. I totally relate to what you’re saying. And one of the things I’ve noticed on 1000 hour dry, your community is, there is more accessible education, about the dangers of alcohol than I see in a lot of other places and really quick, like digestible format, but facts.

 

23:12

Yeah, I just, I thought about my own journey. And I thought about, you know, I was, I’m in and out of college right now to like, I graduated high school in 2010. And I’ve been kind of in and out of college since then. And right now studying consumer psychology. You know, and psychology has always been super fascinating to me, probably because I’ve been in therapy since I was like, eight. And so you know, we always kind of end up you know, floating towards things that are familiar, right. But a lot of what I learned in Consumer Psychology is, you know, like, I also have a background in Marketing. That’s what I went and studied at Virginia Tech communications. And so, I’m always learning and thinking about how to market things to people, but in an ethical way, right? Because this is like the problem. For me, one of the big problems with big alcohol is that they passed their, you know, the boundary of Ethical Marketing long ago, but with 1000 hours dry, you know, in a way, everything’s propaganda, right, like, I just actually finished a book called propaganda. And it was from, like, the 1930s, but it’s written by Edward Bernays, who’s like the founder of public relations, and propaganda nowadays, it’s kind of like a dirty word, but the way I’m going to use it is the actual meaning, which just means like to promote something, like, based on like, the evidence that you’re giving, like so now, propaganda is kind of used, you know, like, in a bad way, in a negative way. But what I’m doing is like I’m propagating the alcohol-free lifestyle, and I’m just giving the facts you know, and because, like you said, in a lot of traditional recovery programs, people scared Are you into being sober? You know, you’re kind of reminded on a daily, well, this is gonna happen to you, if you don’t get sober, let’s, let’s always talk about how bad things were. And sure that works in the beginning, I think a little bit, you know, when you’re really in a bad place, and you’re like, fuck, I really never want to go back there. But then when things start to get better, you forget really quickly how bad things were. And, you know, I’m not staying sober for the same reasons. Now, what five years that I was staying sober for the first year, or the second year, you know, like, my reasons are always evolving. And so, one thing I really thought was important, was to educate people on the benefits of the alcohol-free lifestyle, rather than the negatives, like you said, the negative, you know, behavioral psychology aspect, like this new wave of Positive Psychology, which really came and became popular in the 90s. Wanted to harness that, because I knew, you know, most of us, I think, with substance abuse, you know, have probably dealt with bouts of mental illness or hardships, you know, when we’re used to having a lot of negative thoughts or being called negative things, or, you know, just coming from a really negative perspective. So I was like, Okay, well, how can we shift the perspective? And so this is not like, this punishment, right? Like, because I knew when I was 23, and I was told, you know, like, you have to, you have to be sober. It’s like, Fuck, this sucks. Why? Why me? Why am I, out of all the people that I know, like, why am I this way? Why do I have to quit, and it was such this negative, you know, Outlook, like I was giving something up.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 26:47

When nobody showing you that life is really good without alcohol, right? All your you know, if you surround yourself with drinkers, and everything you do is drinking based, you have no imagination, you can’t even picture what life will be like without alcohol. It’s all about deprivation and isolation. And what you’re showing is that not drinking can live in alcohol free can be really freeing and cool and adventurous and optimistic. And, you know, sort of not this, you’re in such a dark place, therefore, you can’t do this, but rather, there’s sunshine on the other side. And don’t you want to see what that feels like, to even people who don’t sink, you know, low enough that they’re like, Oh, God, I need to enter a program.

 

27:36

I mean, because here’s my thought, right? Like, I feel like we’ve been kind of duped. Like, I feel like big alcohol. And, you know, Hollywood. And, you know, I get very, like, it sounds almost like conspiracy theory, right? But it but it is, you know, like, we’re, we’re targeted. And I also like, when I talk about this, I really feel like I’m talking about like America, because I know other countries are, some are worse, some are better. But you know, a lot of my research is stemmed in like American society, because that’s where I’m from, that’s where, you know, I live, but I feel like, you know, we’re targeted from the beginning, you know, and we’re brainwashed.

 

28:18

Like, we’re praying. Yeah, and you really believe that this is ingrained in society, you need this to be part of your life in order to have social situations in order to have fun. I mean, it’s really paired with everything. You know, like when I when I talk about people are one thing that they always, almost always ask me is like, Well, what about like, your wedding day? Like, are you gonna have a glass of champagne? I’m like, why is that? Like, so relevant? You know, why is this? Like, why are these exciting moments that we’re supposed to be having in our lives, these big moments? Everything’s pair with alcohol, like prom night, you know, graduation, you know, getting a new house like, and you think of like, everyone’s gifting everybody alcohol all the time. Like, it’s just, it’s literally everywhere. And so from a marketing perspective, it’s like, this is fucking genius. How did they do this? they’ve literally got, yeah, everybody. But then part of it is also sober people feeding into the idea that, like, this is a punishment, we have to live so differently, we’re so outside of everything. We have to be anonymous, because it’s so different. Yeah. And I think, you know, 100 years ago, sure. You know, like, definitely, when there was a lot of stigma against a lot of things, then yeah, I think, you know, being anonymous was probably necessary or even now, like for some professions, you know, like, I don’t know, all comfortable. I’d feel seeing my psychiatrist. And in a meeting, I might be like, whoa, hey, girl, like you are prescribing on medication. And, you know, so there is, I totally get how anonymity is important. For certain people or for certain professions, but in general, you know, how are we supposed to find each other? How are we supposed to de stigmatize something, if nobody knows who you are, or what what’s your life’s like, you know, now that you’ve gotten sober, unless you agree to be in the fold, you know, and do all the rules. And so I kind of thought, well, like, let’s make a version of this, that’s like, way more accessible. That’s not so exclusive. That’s not so intense, not because people don’t need intense, you know, but because there are so many people who don’t necessarily, you know, vibe with, with labeling themselves or need to be in recovery, right? Because not everybody has a substance abuse disorder, like you said, and there wasn’t really a place for them, you know, what, what do we do with all the people who come to the rooms of a, and they’re like, Well, you know, you’re not really bad enough? Or, you know, come back in 10 years, when you’ve lost everything? And then what are those people? You know, we’re what happens to people who, who stay, or people like me, you know, who never have both feet in?

 

You know, I was always kind of led to believe that people like me would fall off and die, or relapse or, you know, jails, institutions and deaths. That’s literally what they tell you. Yes. And so that’s really what I thought, and I was afraid of leaving, until I finally heard somebody speak in a meeting once. And it was really honest, it was a young people’s meeting, it was like, 11 a night. And this guy, probably like my age, he was like, yeah, you know, um, you know, I’m being here, because, you know, a friend asked me to you, and it was like a last minute speaker change, I don’t really come to these meetings anymore. And he was just super honest, his whole share, you talked about, you know, I was atheist before and how basically, he his sobriety led him to at the time, like three years sobriety, and now he’s Buddhist, and that’s what he uses to stay sober. And, you know, it like shook me that I was like, Oh, my God, this dude doesn’t even come here anymore. He’s just doing this as a favor, I can leave. And, and I kind of walked out of that meeting with a lot of confidence. And the thought that like, Alright, there’s other ways to do this, that are actually going to work for me. Because it wasn’t really working for me anymore, right. And if some, something’s not working for you, then you need to find something that does like, it doesn’t mean it can’t work for you at a time. But I really believe in the evolution and the transformation of a person. And so if you are transforming, you are evolving, then you shouldn’t necessarily be doing the same thing for 10 years, you know, in my mind. And so

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 32:55

And so, when also… You don’t have to be, you know, “that bad” to decide that it’s not working for you, or it’s not healthy, or it’s dragging you down or keeping you stuck or sort of operating at half power. And I feel like if the choice is nothing, or a or 12 step, there are a lot of people if they don’t know anyone who’s sober if they don’t see life, alcohol free being celebrated, like it is on Instagram and other places were based just posting their pictures and you know, hashtag sober life and hashtag alcohol free and all this stuff, then people are like, Oh, dude, I can you know, I like her. She’s cool. She’s healthy. That’s super interesting. I want to go do that. And I don’t need to drink.

 

33:39

Yeah, I it’s just, I think it’s breaking down. Like, I can always use the same metaphors, right. But I think people really understand metaphors better. Sometimes. It’s really, you know, you’re taking people out of the matrix, essentially, like, you know, yeah, and you’re just letting people know, like, Hey, I know, you believed this. But actually, you can live an alcohol free lifestyle, and, and enjoy your life and have everything you wanted, you know, and still go and be social and hang out with your friends who drink and do everything, pretty much the exact same, you know, but transforming internally, and then you know, getting rid of the things in your life that you don’t need and that don’t serve you. But celebrating that and really, like you said, just letting people know that drinking isn’t good for anybody. Like we’re not because that was one thing that was, you know, kind of taught is to stay in your own lane and not worry about other people’s drinking and I think for sure, like you can’t make other people get sober. Like, you know, I’ve tried I’ve dated other addicts, like when it comes to that, like it’s true, but you can educate other people. And it’s not that you know, we’re not giving unschooling opinions, you know, people come to our page for information, like you said, and so being available and being a resource and letting people know, you know, it does give you cancer, and it’s not just people who drink every day, you know, it’s, it’s somebody who seemingly drinks, you know, quote, unquote, average or moderately, you know, like, Muna posted today, you know, a woman who drinks she said, What three times a week is 15%, more likely or 15% at higher risk of breast cancer than somebody who doesn’t drink. And to me, it’s information like that, that has nothing to do with recovery.

 

You know, because, one back in the day, I didn’t even know that the reason I woke up at 3am, every night was not because I had insomnia was because I was drinking. And that was, you know, a physical effect that I didn’t even realize, you know, with your heart pounding and anxiety and not being able to fall asleep again, till four or five in the morning. I didn’t realize that association, or I didn’t even realize like, the reason I was having increasing anxiety and panic, and all the things was actually because of my drinking. And that sounds incredibly naive. Now, I realize as I say it out loud. But when I was 27,28, you know, I thought the wine was helping me, I thought it was what I did to relax. And I think the more people who speak openly because none of my friends knew that either. that, hey, alcohol is the cause of a lot of the negative shit, you’re feeling physically, mentally, emotionally. It’s not actually the solution and everything you’ve been taught or told or modeled about alcohol, helping you relax, it’s bullshit. It’s Mark again.

 

36:53

And you know, hindsight is 20/20. Right? Like, I was just listening to a really good podcast yesterday about hindsight, and about how it’s so easy for us to be in a place like, you know, how we are now and look back and piece things together and be like, well, it was so obvious, why didn’t I see it? Or like you said, you know, now, it seems, you know, well, obviously, I was getting panic attacks and anxiety, and, you know, all these words we use now, but when you’re in it, of course, these things don’t seem obvious. And when you’re not, if you’re not following a bunch of sober influencers, you know, this information is not readily available, anywhere, you know, it’s not being advertised on TV, it’s not being advertised, you know, anywhere. And so really being loud about it, and just word of mouth, you know, that’s how we’re having to do it right now. It’s very, you know, kind of guerilla marketing on our side, but the thing is, you know, people are catching on and we know that because, you know, the process talking about it. And be the biggest sign to me is that big alcohol itself is now starting to create these, you know, zero approved versions of their beverages.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 38:07

Oh, my God, I love that. I mean, we should talk about this because I, you know, I know, especially in a but in other things, there’s a lot of stigma around nonalcoholic beers, or, you know, there’s not alcoholic Prosecco or mocked up, you know, slippery slope. I personally love the birth, you know, duels in my opinion. Yeah. So like, I love athletic Brewing Company. I mean, I like order that chick. So I’m like, I am not running out or like groovy Prosecco or bubbly. Rosé. I mean, zero alcohol, tastes amazing, you know, models, the celebration stuff. So what’s your take on mocktails and nonalcoholic beer and all those, so I’m really for them?

 

38:51

You know, I think it’s a newer resource. So it’s something that just like anything else, like you have to do what you’re comfortable with? Like, I’ll tell people all the time, you know, I was I think I had over three years sobriety before I ever tried my first nonalcoholic beer. And I’m, you know, I think it was starting to get available before then, you know, I heard people drinking, you know, kind of the smaller business beers or Oh, duels and things like that, but I think I had, I still to this day, you know, I have a lot of unlearning to do, from what I learned in more traditional programming, and then, you know, in treatment and stuff, um, but as I saw more people trying it and really, I tried it for the first time, like, I went out with a friend, somebody who I trusted somebody who had also had, like, his own recovery path, and you know, like, I knew, you know, I really want to try this, but I want to be with somebody that I feel comfortable with, in case for some reason I do feel triggered or something does happen, you know, so it’s a very conscious decision. And I thought about it for a little while first. And then I had it. And it really was not a triggering experience at all it really, if anything, it’s kind of took away some of that FOMO that I still had a lot of even when I was out with friends, right? Because, you know, nobody at the end of the shirt, nobody really cares what you’re drinking, you know, I don’t know, I can’t think of the last, you know, gathering that I was at when someone was like, what was your friend drinking? I don’t fucking know. You know, but we have that whole spotlight effect of like, everyone’s gonna know, we’re not drinking or I’m so uncomfortable going to this event.

 

40:42

Or I’m just going to have water like, I used to go to my husband’s like gala events. And it would be like, like, Oh, I don’t drink. What do you have? And they’re like, club soda, cranberry juice. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? You have, you know, racks of wine. We paid a ton of money to be here like this.

 

Yeah, exactly.

 

41:00

So like, just that, like, oh, there’s nothing for you. Like the fact that now there? Yeah, it’s an it’s, it’s definitely and it was an exclusion, right? And nobody likes to feel excluded. Like even the other night. And like, I know, it’s funny, because I never felt that way before because it wasn’t available. And so it was just how it was. And I was pretty happy with you know, like the, like you said club soda and lime, whatever. Um, but then it became more available. And now when I go out to restaurants, and they don’t have options, I bet like I’m such a care and I’m literally

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 41:36

Well, you can always get like a, like, I love mosquitoes, no ketos with no alcohol in it, or we’re, you know, just anything you know, Ginger beers always great. But I mean, I think the I saw like a Heineken zero commercial during this. And I was like that, like, those commercials are fucking out. Anyway,

 

41:58

I saw a lot of beer commercials, too, but it was awesome. And I, my husband and I went to Amsterdam a year and a half ago. And nonalcoholic beer is everywhere there. I mean, it’s normalized. And it was obviously beers a huge culture too. But you know, every restaurant they had it prominently in on the menu. It was really good. And we actually went to my cousin’s house, where my cousin’s same age with her husband, and they had nonalcoholic beer in their fridge just stocked, they didn’t know that I’d quit drinking. And they were like, Oh, yeah, we just keep it around. Because sometimes we want a beer. But sometimes we just want the taste, but without any alcohol to get fuzzy. And I was like, holy, yeah, I can’t imagine drinkers, just generally here stocking nonalcoholic beer, if they don’t feel like dealing with the impacts of that.

 

42:49

Yeah, no, Europe is very ahead of us in this way, especially like the UK. But even in like in Spain, I forget, I’ll have to, like, I’ll have to give a source later. But I was reading an article where they said like, 30% of their beer sales are nonalcoholic beer, like in Spain, which is, you know, you think a lot of that here, you’re like, Oh, my God, that’s crazy. But, you know, these are other cultures that also live a lot more like they consume much more consciously than we do, right? You know, they’re not morbidly obese, they’re, they’re just a lot more conscious of what they put in their bodies, like, not with smoking, that’s still really heavy over in Europe. But when it comes to like food consumption, I think and beverage consumption, they’re a lot healthier than we are.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 43:37

Well, in framing, not drinking here increasingly, as just a health choice. Yes, as similar to deciding to be a vegetarian or vegan, or even deciding to buck a lot, you know, deciding to run a marathon is something you’ve decided to do, which is a new endeavor that requires time and training and learning and everything else, but it’s a choice you’re making. I think that it helps, like, that’s what’s framed it for me. And one of the things I definitely wanted to talk to you about because it feeds into this idea of adopting a lifestyle, not a label. And that’s not to say that you didn’t have an I had a problematic relationship with drinking, where it was leading us nowhere good and definitely addicted, and, and all the things. But we talked earlier about the fact that, you know, assigning yourself a label as an alcoholic, or, you know, an addict, versus saying, you know, I no longer drink and this is my identity as a nondrinker is, is similar to the fixed mindset versus the growth mindset. And so tell me about that, because I think that’s really interesting.

 

44:53

Yeah, so I honestly this was more of a recent discovery for me, after I read the book literally called mindset by Carol. Carol Dweck, basically, what she says is that there are two different mindsets. You have a fixed mindset, and you have a growth mindset. And you don’t have to necessarily be like, one or the other. Like everybody kind of has a little bit of both, you know, depending on what may be the topic is. But essentially, the fixed mindset is more of when you believe that you have fixed traits, that we’re kind of we’re born as we are, we’re born with the character defects and, and you know, our personalities and our talents. And you can’t really change who you are fundamentally, you just kind of are stuck with what you have. And you got to you know, if you’re good at something, you’re good at something if you’re not, you’re not. And that is one mindset. And the other is growth mindset, which is the mindset that, you know, everything is learnable everything is teachable, you know, I’m not saying that we can all go, and you know, swim like Michael Phelps. But if you’re not good at swimming, you can become better. You know. And so, what I found really interesting was about this book that I’m almost done with, I think a lot of a lot of what I’ve been applying to the DRI club has been a lot of trying to teach people the growth mindset. Because I think so many of us, I think are we’re more naturally inclined to think about fixed mindset, because that’s kind of what our, our culture, our culture perpetuates. You know, that like, the way that we’re talking to you, you’re so talented. You’re, you were born a star, you’re so intellectual, you know. And really, that’s how our talk to you. Like, I know, I was thinking about how I grew up and how I was spoken to and, and what I thought I was good at, right? Like I was always told, like, you are so smart, you are so pretty You are so this, and then you really come to believe that this is what I am, this is this identifies me right. And then if I’m not good at it, then I must just suck at it. And so I’m the kind of person and I’m trying to I’m this is where I’m in a fixed mindset, and I’m trying to grow. I’m I what, I’m not good at something, I just don’t do it.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 47:28

Oh my God, as a mom, there are all these studies out there that came out a couple years ago. And it really impacted how I parent, but the idea that you should not say to your children, you’re so good at math, because it actually inhibits them from taking harder classes because they don’t want. They’re like, Fuck, I’m good at math, I don’t want to fail at math. If I don’t do well, if I have to learn, this will prove that I am not this thing that I’m getting positive reinforcement for being. And so it actually keeps them, you know, not trying harder, because they don’t want to fail as opposed to if you tell your children, I’m so proud of how hard you’re working and how much you challenge yourself. And you know how much you take risks, they’re actually more likely to sort of soar higher in any area, then if you say, you’re so good at math, then they’re like, I don’t want to disprove that theory, because it’s something that I’m getting positive reinforcement for.

 

48:31

Yeah, and that’s exactly what it is, right? A language is so important, like neurolinguistics like, we grow up with it. That’s, you know, what we’re told when our young really shapes us as individuals and, but the thing is, right, like neuroplasticity is real. The growth mindset is real. So you can change that. And by changing our one thing, you know, by changing our language, that’s really important. So that was one reason why, when I chose to start the DRI club, I chose to change the language. You know, nobody really was we kind of came up with the term AF because AF was already obviously used for something else. But I was like, wow, you know.

 

49:08

Yeah, I always think whenever I see like sober AF, I’m always like sober. Yeah, that’s immediately what I learned.

 

49:15

So it was kind of, you know, I was like, Well, hey, we’re only talking about alcohol, right? So technically, you know, we’re not worried about if you’re using THC. So the word sober in itself, usually is talking about somebody who is you know, sober from all substances clean and sober. So I was like, I don’t want to get super technical, but let’s just stick with alcohol free because that’s literally what we’re doing. And it also takes away from like the recovery language. So we try and use different language and things are that are not identity labels, you know, like I am alcohol free is not an identity label. It’s just like I am lactose free. You know, these are things yeah, it’s the lifestyle, your diet. It, kind of describes what I’m doing. Like you said, It describes my lifestyle, but it doesn’t define who I am the same way that I am an alcoholic guys, where it puts this, you know, the labeling theory, which is when you label something, especially in a negative way, you’re probably more likely to continue to do those negative behaviors or go back to them. Because you really think that innately you are that you know, when you tell a kid, you’re bad, or you’re, you know, you’re stupid, they really start to believe that. And so I thought the idea of saying, you know, I am an alcoholic, although it works for some people. For me, I just see it more negatively. Because if I if I hadn’t picked up a drink in a long time, or if I haven’t had any maladaptive alcohol behaviors in five years, you know, am I an alcoholic? Still? You know, um,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 50:50

oh, my God, I love that people are always like, what do you, you know, when I’m like, I quit drinking people I used to work with, they’d be like, Oh, do you have a problem? And, you know, I would just think in my mind, like, No, I haven’t had a fucking drink in five years. I don’t have a problem. I saw you drunk, like, three days. So it’s that? Well, it’s just like, I’m, I haven’t had a drink in five years. Like, no, right now, I have zero problem with alcohol because I don’t consume it. But it’s, it’s again, that like, that belief that you will always have a problem, right? And that in no way means that I think I should ever drink again. Because I, I put my hand on that hot stove enough to know I’m gonna get burned. So why the hell would I do? But like, yeah, that label that you are, once you have, you know, once you decide that alcohol isn’t working in your life, and by the way, it’s addictive, and it’s working as designed pulling you down that hole. You don’t have to carry around that label anymore. If you say I’m living alcohol free, I quit drinking. I’m super proud of it,

 

51:59

you know? Yeah, it’s a healthy choice. And it just doesn’t make sense. Like when you know, when I think of other parallel addictions, because they are parallel, right. And a lot of people don’t see it that way. But I learned from the biology of desire, which is such a good book that, you know, eating disorders, substance abuse disorders, gambling, addiction, sex addiction, these are all very parallel, you know, it’s the same. It’s the same swimming lane to me, you know, like, it might be a little, it’s a different lane, but we’re all going the same path. We’re doing it for the same reasons. You know, we’re feeding the same, you know, neurotransmitters and, and stuff. And so when I think about my friends who are, you know, recover from eating disorders? I don’t know one of them who’s like, yeah, I’m Billy neck, but I don’t throw up anymore. But I’m a baleen MC, or I’m anorexic, even though I eat now, you’re like, Okay, well, you used to be anorexic, you know, or you used to have anorexia. Yeah.

 

53:02

Um, you know, wire, alcoholics, the only one who like claim this label and then stick with it, even when we’re not drinking or using anymore. It just doesn’t make sense.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 53:13

Or it’s like smoking, right? People who quit smoking don’t sit around for the rest of their lives saying, Yeah, I was addicted to cigarettes, and I quit but I’m a nicotine Holic or whatever, they just, they’re like, yeah, I used to smoke a pack a day, and I quit. And everybody’s like, good, Anya, that shit, that it’ll kill you. Like, way to go, man, that that must have been hard.

 

53:36

You know, I mean, I remember when I told my psychiatrist that I was leaving a, because I literally I think I saw her when I was like three days sober. And it had the same psychiatrist since then, he was like, Oh, good. You know, I’ve done so much work in the past five years. Cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, psychoanalysis medication, you know, and then there’s all the self-work that you have to do, getting into practices of meditation, of exercising, of doing self-care, really, you know, like building your own foundation and, structure and changing the way that you do things because I find that addictions are parallel. So, you have to always be vigilant. If you are somebody who had any sort of addictive behavior, because I’ve seen people go from one thing to another, the purpose was no longer what it served before, which was, you know, as a coping mechanism, versus what I do use as a coping mechanism now is like exercising.

 

And what I really realized in the last six months, is that I’ve really been over exercising, and as a form of self-punishment, as a form of control. And as a part of my like OCD and my perfectionism, and that’s manifested because I’ve spent Now sprained my foot twice. And so, you know, the thought behind Well, I’m not an alcoholic anymore, or I don’t use alcohol, that’s no longer my drug of choice kind of switched over, right? So now, I over exercise and use it in a maladaptive way. And I had to kind of back up and think like, Okay, so what’s going on in my life, that even though I’m not picking up a drink, I’m doing something else that’s harming me. You know, like, I have to figure that out. So I had to kind of take a step back from exercising, and really evaluate. Okay, I definitely going through a depressive phase, I think a lot of people are February and March are really the highest months for people to have depression and anxiety. And, you know, I’m in between jobs, or, you know, we’re working through this investment with the reframe app. And it’s, you know, anytime we’re working with a startup, like, you know, there’s a lot of instability, you know, and managing multiple people and working within the recovery in the mental health space. It’s very taxing, you know, like, I would not choose to do anything else. Because, you know, kind of like what we said earlier, like waking up and getting to be of service to the recovery community, is my passion. And I think, finding purpose and getting to do something that I really, truly love and believe in every day, as a profession. Like a lot of people don’t get to do that. But at the same time, like, you know, it does take a toll on a person, you know, you do feel a level of responsibility, you feel a level of I need to be doing this, I’m on my phone all the time. I’m kind of you know, that workaholic, part of me has come out. And so finding balance can be hard sometimes, you know, yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 56:53

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and you have the insight now, and the tools, and I think it’s a constant calibration in our lives, to be like, Okay, how do I keep myself in my mind? It’s like, how do I keep myself in that emotional green zone? Where I’m okay. I, you know, we’ve mentioned a few times throughout the podcast, and I realized we didn’t ever actually talk about it. So will you tell us about the dry club, about your podcast, the dry life, and about everything, you know, if people want to get in touch with you, which I’m sure they’re gonna want to follow up and learn more like, how can they find you out.

 

57:31

So right now, our main platform is Instagram, which is just at 1000 hours dry. And what it really is right now is an online support system and a community. And it’s a place where we promote and educate people on the alcohol-free lifestyle. And we are welcoming of not just people who are already sober, but people who are sober curious. So if you’re somebody who is still drinking, but you want to know more like give us a follow, you know, it’s not just about for us, being alcohol free, it’s about anybody who’s interested. And in it for any reason, you know, maybe your spouse is interested. And so you want to be supportive. But what you’re going to find there is a lot of education, a lot of resources, a lot of tools we’re all about giving you, you know, like you said everything to kind of fill up your sobriety toolbox. So what we really do that I think most people know us for is we do 1000 hours dry challenge, which is a 42-day alcohol free challenge. Kind of similar, you know, I’m sure people know a lot about dry January. But it’s just a challenge that we hold, and we hold it a couple times a year, we actually just started a new round on March first, where we, as a collective community go, I’ll call free for 42 days. So that’s for everybody. You can already be sober, you can already be a couple days, you know, alcohol free. And we also like to remind people, it’s okay to have a slip up. So, if you’re interested in joining late, or if you have a drink or two during that 42 days, it’s as long as you are getting up the next day and saying, you know what, I want to continue to do this challenge. That’s what’s really important. Make it accessible to make it not a barrier to entry if people are not quite at that.

 

59:27

Yeah. And it’s you know, it’s like any it’s like a diet right are saying I’m going to cut out this or I’m going to cut out that like I’m doing this What are they called? I’m having a lot of inflammation so I’m having to cut things out of my diet to try and figure out what I’m eating that I that’s not good for me. So right I’m supposed to be going gluten free, but it’s really hard to just go gluten free. I when I was like I had been gluten free before now meaning gluten again.

 

So going back, it’s really hard and you know sometimes I’m like fucking I’m gonna have a piece of bread. If I do, I don’t want to be like, Oh, no, I have to start all over, like my journey is ruined all of my hard work. And all of the progress I made is somehow, you know, gone, that’s not true. We just kind of, we use these 42 days, and really try and push, you know, if you’re thinking about living an alcohol free lifestyle, try doing those 42 days, because you’re going to start to see the benefits of somebody who does get to live or who chooses to live an alcohol free life. And we talk a lot about those benefits weekly. So we’d like to tell you, you know, what, Week One benefit, what’s weak two, three, and so on. And it’s really, you know, it’s not just about, oh, I’m saving money, or I’m losing weight, it’s about, you know, how is your liver functioning doing better? You know, how is your skin? Which is your, your body’s biggest organ? How is that, you know, benefiting? Are you more hydrated, yes, like, there’s so many benefits to just even taking a break from alcohol? You know, um, even if you know, you know, I’m not, I’m not interested in being sober long term, your body can really benefit and really rejuvenate a lot. And those 42 days, you can learn a lot about yourself. And, you know, I think it was like 80, or 70% of people who did a 30-day challenge and went through and actually, they said that they continued to have conscious drinking for up to like a year afterwards. So it really changes the way that you see drinking, and you realize, I don’t have to drink and all these social changes. So, like, situations, I don’t need a, you know, a glass of wine every night, because it’s part of my nightly ritual, or when I cook, you know, a lot of the times people don’t even realize it’s just part of your, like, ritual on your habits. It’s not necessarily this emotional thing, you know, where Oh, I’m always drinking, because I’m feeling this certain way. It’s like, sometimes it’s just as automatic as brushing your teeth. If you drink often enough, yeah.

 

And so it’s breaking up that cycle, and telling your body, okay, I’m going to try something different. And realizing, wow, you know, like you said, I’m sleeping through the night, and I’m not getting up, or I’m not waking up with anxiety, my energy levels are higher, or if you’re someone like me, if you’re really a fitness junkie, or you’re interested in losing weight and stuff, like highly recommend, because there’s no way that you are operating on 100%, for your movement for yoga for you know, like you said, CrossFit, whatever if you’re drinking, because it can take up to 24 hours for alcohol to leave the body, if not more. So even if you don’t have a drink that day, you say, Oh, you know, well, tomorrow, I’m going to go run this off, I’m going to go spin this off, you still have alcohol on your body, you’re not able to, you know, work at your maximum capacity, your body’s not metabolizing things in the same way, body’s not burning fat in the same way. So really, it’s just a hindrance to everything genuinely. But it’s a safe space. And we have an accountability guide that you can print out and kind of just, you know, guide you through the 40 days really simple visualizations, little lists, little suggestions and daily tasks that we recommend you doing, if you really want to take it seriously.

 

And we also have an app that you can use, we partnered with an app called reframe, which will kind of give you a little bit more structure. Same thing, it’s a lot of daily tasks. It’s a lot of learning and little daily readings. And you know, it only takes maybe five minutes out of your day. But it’s training your mind to do something different, right? And you’re getting to learn while you’re doing it, which is super amazing, like knowledge is power. And you’re also building a community, like you’re getting to meet other alcohol free people, and seeing what it’s like, like, there are so many cool individuals that I’ve met through this online community who, you know, are very much like me, you know, because I think that’s another stigma that like, oh, sober, people are boring, or they’re old, and they’re this and they’re not. And it’s like, you’d be surprised at like, a big chunk of the online sober community is young people, you know, and

 

1:04:17

Yeah, and there’s a universally people out there who’ve chosen not to drink and really cool men and women that you would love to know. And we and we also have chapters, because I felt it was really important. And I knew, you know, it’s good to have that great big large support system. But you know, when it comes to things, I think, when you’re going through something hard, or when you really need people to relate to, um, to find people who are even more like you. So it was really important for me to have, we have a women’s page, we have a men’s page, we have an LGBTQIA page, we have a biopic page. And these are all run by people who are actually in those communities and who actually identify as Um, as those chapters, you know, and we’re working on meetings, and so it’s really an all-encompassing community. But it’s just about, you know, being supportive and being positive and realizing that there’s a better way of living. And it’s free. And you know, you’re going to be supported and not judged, no matter if you choose to stay if you choose to go, if you come back and forth, you know, you’re always welcome. It’s really a revolving door.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 1:05:31

Awesome. Well, I will link to everything in the show notes. And thank you so much for taking the time and having this conversation.

 

1:05:38

Of course, it was amazing to be on here. And thank you so much….