SUMMARY KEYWORDS

managing anger, sobriety, emotions, tools, people, drinking, feel, angry, rage, upset, person, boundary, stuffing, healthy, talk, stress, reacting, realize, blame, class, resentment

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Michelle Farris

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there. If you’re listening to this podcast, I’m betting you’ve been going back and forth for a while now on whether or not you should stop drinking. And I want you to raise your hand. If you’ve had any one of these thoughts.

You might have been thinking, I’m not that bad. I actually don’t want to stop drinking completely. I just want to drink like a normal person. Or maybe you come home after work. And you think I know I shouldn’t drink tonight. But I literally can’t relax or have fun without it. It’s really common to say I’ve tried to take a break from drinking before. But it’s just too hard. I always give up anyway. So what’s the point in trying again? Or here’s one I hear all the time from women. Everyone I know drinks. If I stopped drinking, I will be bored. Or I’ll be boring. I’ll have no fun. I’ll never be invited anywhere. I’ll just sit home and be miserable. Or maybe you can insert whatever your reason is there.

So is your hand up? If it is that is totally okay. And that’s because taking a break from drinking and changing your relationship with alcohol. This shit is hard.

And that’s why I’m really pumped to invite you to my completely free 60 minute masterclass the five secrets to successfully take a break from drinking, even if you’ve tried and you failed in the past.

After you take this free class, you’ll realize why what you’ve been doing up until now hasn’t been working, and what to do.

Instead, we’re going to cover all the juicy topics, including what questions you need to stop asking yourself, because they’re setting you up for self sabotage, not for success. We’re going to talk about exactly what you need to do differently. So you can stop the exhausting cycle of stopping drinking and then saying screw it, and starting again.

And we’re going to talk about the real reasons you haven’t been successful. And I’m betting they’re not what you think they are. And this isn’t surface level stuff. I am handing over the strategies and the mindset shifts I go through every day with my private coaching clients. If you’re listening to this podcast, I really encourage you to take a moment and sign up for this completely free masterclass. It will help you on your journey to drink class and live more to feeling better. So if you want to save your spot, go to hellosomedaycoaching.com/class while the class is still available, and I really hope to see you there.

Casey McGuire Davidson 04:26

Today we’re going to talk about anger management.

And I’ve got the perfect guest for this episode. Michelle Farris is a licensed psychotherapist, Anger Management Specialist and course creator. She loves helping codependent people create healthy relationships without sacrificing their big hearts. She’s written several eBooks and online courses including her popular Calming Your Anger Zoom class, and has been featured in online publications and podcasts. In her private practice, she loves helping people develop self trust, and healthy relationships. So Michelle, I’m so excited to have you here and to talk about this.

05:15

Thanks so much for having me, Casey.

Yeah, well, I think this is such an important topic. Because I know for a lot of women listening to this, it’s anger that is a big trigger for them to drink, either being highly uncomfortable with it, not having the right communication skills to establish boundaries, stuffing it down, and then having it come up when they drink. So I’m really excited to talk about how to understand anger, how to get control of it, how to handle it in a healthy way.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I think the biggest misconception people have honestly, is it anger is bad. You know, like that quote in the big book, The anger is the dubious luxury of normal men. It’s like, well, yeah, but anger also tells us that something isn’t right. Because when we get angry, we typically either feel disrespected, or we feel unsafe, something is happening where somebody has crossed our boundary. So it’s really a warning sign for us to take some form of action. And, you know, that’s what I really want your listeners to understand is that anger is not a bad thing. It’s just a warning sign.

Yeah, I think that’s really important, too. Because a lot of times I know, when I was a kid, overtly or quietly, I was sort of conditioned to have no problems, just solve it, don’t talk about it, don’t get angry, you know, all those kinds of things. And so that definitely manifested into when anger comes up being like, whatever you need to do, don’t express this.

Right, please the other person so that you can avoid the conflict or the potential blow up?

Absolutely. And I think women get conditioned to do that more so than then.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, so as we kind of just dive into this, tell us about how we understand anger. I know you said it’s not a bad thing, but you know, how it presents in women and, and ways it sort of happens in unhealthy ways. So some people are not going to necessarily relate to the word anger. Like for me in my early recovery, I would have said, I’m not angry. What are you talking about? I have no problem with anger, but I was stuffing it. So some people relate more to the word stress. So you can use them interchangeably because stress and anger have the same reaction in the body, you still go through that fight, flight freeze or fawn response, right?

But unhealthy anger is typically about blame. You’re making me feel better, you’re doing this to me, you’re making me mad versus healthy. Anger is about, hey, I need to tell you how I feel. I’m uncomfortable, I’m upset, I’m angry. But the focus isn’t Tag, you’re it, you’re to blame for how I feel, it’s let me share with you how I feel. And that’s a different deal.

But for women, I think anger tends to look like overwhelm, anxiety, stuffing it. Some women, though, that have come to my class absolutely relate to the rage. Because part of what happens with rage is that we don’t recognize our stress. And then all of a sudden, we blow up in the moment for something seemingly unimportant. And the people around us might be like, Why are you flipping out over that, but they don’t see all the stress that’s built up, that led to that blow up. And that’s where, you know, the awareness can come in.

And can I ask you a question? I mean, I know that, you know, the I statements and communicating that and how they’ll test healthy. But does that sort of perpetuate the idea that like your anger is not legitimate? Because sometimes people do stuff that is mean or callous or intended to hurt, right? And if you’re like, oh, yeah, someone like legitimately is like, I want to hurt you emotionally or whatever. And you’re like, that’s mean?

That’s unhealthy anger. That’s, that’s the other person. Absolutely, absolutely. So if somebody is threatening our physical safety, or our emotional well being by gaslighting us, name calling, screaming all of those behaviors, that’s when you really need to bow out. You don’t want to stay in that kind of conversation because there’s no point. The other person has probably lost control. And they’re trying to play the game tag you’re it because if they can make it your fault, then they don’t have to look at their own behavior.

Yeah.

And so in that case, you’re sort of used to retreating because, you know, it does feel unsafe, and then at the same time, you know, I just I’m always like, well, if you’re like, I feel XYZ I mean, I certainly do that, but it feels like you’re definitely appeasing them tolerating

10:00

them coping as best you can. So it’s not to provoke them further.

Yeah, that I feel is more about when you’re upset. What you’re talking about is in reaction to somebody else’s anger. And that’s where honestly the biggest tool, if they’re abusive, I leave. But if they’re not, but they’re, it’s a little uncomfortable, you could try to validate it and say, you know, I get that you’re really angry that your boss today, I can’t imagine how hard that must be that must, I can understand why you’re so frustrated, because part of what we want to do is join with them if it’s safe, so that they feel heard. And then typically, when somebody feels heard, they start to deescalate. Okay, somebody gets how frustrated I am.

Yeah, but I totally understand what you’re saying. Well, so in terms of healthy anger, and dealing with that, or what you said stress because I think a lot of stress and overwhelm that you’re completely right, that is a much more comfortable term. When that presents, how do you recognize it? And how do you deal with it?

So there’s four ways you can spot your anger, or your you know, stress reaction? One is your thinking, right? Usually, when I start to get upset or angry, My thoughts are negative, they’re not positive, I’m making a lot of negative assumptions and negative thoughts about the situation or the person in front of me. The second is physical signs. Most of us know you know, you might have your heart racing, muscle tension, clenched jaw, stomach ache, headache, you know, your body is going to be screaming at you, hey, something’s happening, right? The next one is emotionally. Sometimes when people start to get upset, they shut off, and they get numb, and they don’t have access to their feelings, or they start to feel anxious or sad or scared. The last one is, behaviorally. What do you do when you start to get upset, like I tend to get up and pace, I don’t sit when I’m upset, I have to be moving. But that’s a warning sign. Because if I know I’m standing up and pacing around the room, I’m like, Okay, I’m going there, I’m starting to get upset. So knowing how your stress and anger is presenting itself can be really, really helpful in catching it. And honestly, that’s what people need to do first.

Yeah, I mean, I know that a lot of times anger, resentment, blame, that overwhelm, stress, I used to feel that at work, more than certainly at home or in other relationships. But the challenge there, is there such a power dynamic, you know, if in the organization and your boss, like my reaction was like, how do I, you know, first financial safety? How do I make this? Okay, I feel like I can’t express it, that kind of thing.

Yeah, well, that’s more delicate, because you’re right, I mean, you’re in a much more vulnerable position at work. So you have to really assess, you know, is this something I can talk about? And have it go well, and sometimes I base that on my relationship with the other person. If I think I have a boss that’s open and receptive. And I come at it from a responsible place of concern, then I might do it. But if I have someone who’s going to just shut me down, and you know, tell me to shut up? No, I probably wouldn’t. But you’re right. That’s a really tricky situation.

Yeah, no, that’s super interesting.

Well, so you recognize anger in your body, recognize when it’s presenting, because sometimes we feel like it’s something completely different. And then what, and then you have to do something about it. Now, for women, we tend to be so outwardly focused, especially if you’re codependent in any way where you’re a people pleaser, you’re focusing on caring for others, not yourself, you’re not going to know these four signs and how your anger shows up. Because you’re going to be so focused on taking care of everybody else, that this is actually going to be some work for you to actually shift that focus back to you and say, Okay, wait a minute, you know, how am I reacting right now, instead of worrying about how my mother is upset, or my partner is upset? How am I upset? What’s going on in my own body? So, honestly, the shift between, you know, focusing on others and focusing on self has to happen first.

Yeah, and so, that’s hard sometimes, right?

Oh, yeah, we’re gonna do that because you feel like someone else is in more of a crisis. And so you know, you’re reacting to it. But, you know, doesn’t it feel like you’re taking your eye off of what the primary issue is, if you’re focused on yourself? Well, I think that’s what recovery is about, it’s bringing the focus back to us and really leading our life from what do we need? How are we going to take care of ourselves and be in the world

15:00

Because if we’re focused on what other people think and what other people do, I get lost, I get lost in that. And that was honestly one of the biggest shifts in my own recovery is to realize 10 plus years in that I was not focusing on myself, I was obviously to a certain degree because I was recovering. But I was still so consumed by what other people thought, I didn’t really pay attention to my own anger and how I was stuffing it and how it was leading to a lot of resentment.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I completely understand that because I personally in my life am highly uncomfortable with anger, like, very much so especially in my marriage, and in my sort of home life. And so anytime my husband is upset, you know, I’m upset about it, right? Because I feel that emotional energy and want to make it go away, not necessarily even to make him feel better, but to make him not express it to the point where he’s like, I feel like I’m not allowed to express it.

Any frustration or anger around you.

Yeah.

Well, can I ask you a question?

Yeah.

Did you grow up by any chance with someone who raged?

No, no, and no raised voices ever. Literally, I never saw my parents fight. They were always great. But they were very busy. And not around a lot. And I was always trying to get their attention in love. And then I went to boarding school when I was like, a month after I turned 14. And so I think that I feel like, if there is anger, unhappiness, like I might be left or something like that, I don’t like myself, I think it’s related to that.

But see, that is such an important point, what you trace it back from because that’s part of why when we don’t want to deal with an emotion, like for me, I did grow up with someone who raged. So I was very clear, I did not want to tolerate it at all. I was super afraid of it. So there are reasons connecting back to our history, just like what you said about your parents, not having that example of healthy fighting can cause a lot of fear of oh, what is it going to look like? Maybe I’m going to be left? Maybe something bad is going to happen to me?

Yeah.

And that’s really key.

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s really, really interesting. And I think that my relationship, you know, possibly could be healthier, even with my own internal turmoil. If I, you know, was able to have someone around me be super upset and not think that, you know, that is somehow related to me, or that I need to make it better.

Yeah.

Well, the goal is, we want to be able to have our upset and anger without being out of control. And I’m guessing that if you and I both had that growing up, we wouldn’t be afraid of it. Because we would see anger as being somewhat purposeful in terms of healthy expression of emotion, but not scary or intimidating.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Well, so what’s next? If you know, in terms of your steps of going through that?

Mm hmm. Well, once you know your warning signs, what I like to do is I have people rate their stress from one to 10. One being super low, everything’s good. Two, three is usually where people start to feel some stress, but it’s manageable. So what happens is, people tend to ignore it. And just, it’s gonna get better on its own. But then something else happens. And now you’re four or five. And this is usually the turning point where we go from, okay, I was a little stressed to now I know, I’m annoyed. And now, something’s brewing inside of me. And I either

18:56

can ignore it again. And it’s going to grow. And then I’m going to eventually go to 8, 9, 10 rage in some form. Or I’m going to say, You know what, I need to stop, I need to take a break and figure out what to do here. So that’s why coupling what your early warning signs are with your stress is going to help people start to learn how to manage it, because again, you know, this takes some time, but the one thing I love about the anger work is that it’s really simple and practical. People don’t need years and years of therapy to get control of their anger. And I love that.

Yeah, I love practical solutions. I mean, I mean, that’s wonderful. So, you know, it sounds like it is actually healthy to express it in the right way. Is that true versus like stuffing it and then feeling that resentment built?

Yeah, because the key is if you can express your anger when you still have some semblance of control 

20:00

When it’s early, right, then it’s probably going to be easier for you to express and say, Hey, I feel really angry when bla bla bla happened, right? But stuffing it, you know, I know for me because I was a major stuffer is, you know when women stuff their anger, it’s like the rage ball building, right? We just stuff stuff stuff stuff and then all of a sudden it leaks out and it leaks out in sarcasm, hurtful comments, that silent treatment, I’m gonna be,

20:32

you know, grouchy, you know all of that stuff. And, you know, God bless us. That’s the best we can do until we realize, okay, you know what, maybe my anger is a problem, even though I’m not raging.

Yeah, yeah. And so I mean, definitely, I can see you know, the sarcasm coming out of the comments, feeling like a martyr feeling misunderstood. So, you know, in that case, what do you do next, when you recognize that even if it’s not raging?

Well, you probably need to practice some form of self care, get support, because something’s not okay with you. And to stay in that situation and expect the other person to change, which is what we can fall into. That’s going to just intensify the frustration versus, you know, hey, wow, I noticed I really am in a bad mood and nothing is going right. Maybe I need to exit and remove myself and do something so that I can get support and calm down.

Casey McGuire Davidson  17:50

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit.

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23:38

Yeah, I know that going for really long walks always helped me just like getting my body moving and getting some of that.

Yes. All you know, anxiety the way you feel it in your body out?

Oh, yeah, for sure. There was years ago, there was a study that said that, you know, when you get really angry, some people would like box or, you know, hit things. And they actually said that, that mimics violence against people. So they don’t recommend doing that. Okay, but you can take a walk, you can lift weights, you can do really vigorous exercise, but you just don’t want to mimic because sometimes what people would do is they would box and they would think of their partner. And they would think Oh, I’m so mad at them.

Yeah.

And the problem is, that negative thought process just gets reinforced. So we really want to break that cycle.

Yeah, I mean, I remember what I used to always drink when I would get angry, which Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of women do right? You are angry, frustrated, resentful, overwhelmed. You open a bottle of wine, you start drinking, and it does a couple of things. I mean, you get that dopamine happy hit you right out a little bit, but I know for me, then it wouldn’t solve anything and so

25:00

Sometimes that resentment would build over the course of my drinking, you know, and I would like, I never fight with my husband, we talked about that. But when I was drinking, you know, I know it did typically result in me breaking down in tears and anger. And then yeah, who would wake up in the morning and not really remember the fight or the resolution or like lose my train of thought during the fight? So I would be like, Okay, I am angry, but I somehow can’t express it, which is hard to?

25:36

Well, yeah, and I think in early recovery, it can be really scary, because we’re not used to having our feelings, we’re used to dulling our feelings with whatever substance we’re using. So, you know, for me, I didn’t really start to feel my anger until year four or five, when all my resentments in my friendships were coming out. But I, again, I didn’t want to label it as anger. And that’s part of the myth I want people to kind of get rid of is that anger is a bad thing. It doesn’t make you a bad thing. And even, you know, in my classes, people will say, you know, I don’t know why this is so silly, why I get angry at my partner about, you know, this or that. And I always tell them, we always have a valid reason for why we’re angry. And if I sat with you for 10 minutes, and heard your story, it would make complete sense to me why you’re reacting the way you do. So part of the message I want to send is that, you know, it really is okay to feel whatever you feel because it’s tied to something. We just have to find what that is.

Yeah. And is it possible when you were talking about rageful? Anger? I was like, no, no, I never had that. And now that we’re talking, I was like, Oh, my sister, I was thinking about my parents.

Yeah, yeah.

And luckily, she does not listen to this podcast at all. But you know, when we were younger, before we went to boarding school, she used to get very, very angry. And I think it was not at me. But I was like, the easiest target around yeah, she’s older than me. To the point where she like slapped me across the face. Once she would talk down to me, she would scream about stuff, like what TV show we were watching and stuff like that.

27:22

And so yes, it was, it was really interesting, because I remember it was the first time when I was in college, which is crazy when she would call up me and be like, super angry about something. I would like, suddenly look at the phone and hang up on her. And I was like, oh my god, that was amazing. And then she’d call back again.

27:44

And I’d like hang up on her again. And then she’d call me the third time and be like, so like be suddenly start being nice like that. I was like, This is amazing. This thing in my hand.

Well, yeah, cuz you set a boundary and you didn’t put up with it.

Yeah, for the first time when I was like, 19.

Yeah. And that’s not easy to do. So good for you for being and what’s interesting is even your sister who probably hadn’t, hadn’t done any work. Got the message?

Yeah. But I mean, I think that, like she was angry kind of at the world and probably with good reason. But yeah, um, but I was the only person she could express it to, not her friends, not her boyfriend, not my parents. You know what I mean.

Right. But that was a really great boundary that you said, Now, take that next step. Of course, at 19, you probably wouldn’t have done this. But you know, you know, later, the next step might be, hey, you know what, this isn’t going well, for me, I’m uncomfortable. I need to get off the phone. So because we can teach people what we’re going to put up with, we’re not going to change their anger or their rage, but we can do just what you did and not participate in it.

Yeah, and I think I did tell her like, you can’t talk to me that way. You know, like, that’s not okay. Yeah. For you, and it was harder to do when I was living with her.

Oh, sure. Because when you live with someone who rages, it’s really anxiety provoking, because you don’t know when they’re gonna blow.

Yeah, yeah, that’s really interesting. So if you do live with someone who’s raging, you know, possibly not even about you, right? What do you about that?

So the first thing I would recommend is making sure you have enough physical space. Because this is why fighting in a car always gets out of hand, because there’s nowhere to go and people feel trapped. So when somebody is starting to rage, the first thing I would do is backup and see if you can be far enough away that you feel safe. Now in a small room, that might mean going into another room. Now, if they follow you, if they’re intimidating, if they’re abusive, then that’s another thing that’s when you may need to get

30:00

professional help and really consider, okay, if I am afraid in my own home, then you’re really going to need some professional help, because you don’t want to leave that situation on your own without any guidance, because it can be dangerous. But the first thing I do is physical space. If they’re not threatening, and they’re just raging, I would say, you know, I’m, I’m scared, right now I’m gonna, I’m gonna leave you alone, I’ll be back later. Or if you don’t feel like you can say that in the moment text down, you can absolutely text them and say, you know, I’m just gonna go to the store, I’ll be back in a little bit, I’m going to give you some time.

30:38

But safety has to come first, when somebody is raging, and that includes the kids, maybe you take the kids with you to the store, so that they don’t have to stay and watch it because it’s scary. When somebody rages. We don’t know what they’re gonna do.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I can only imagine that’s terrifying.

30:58

And most of the people you work with, is in dealing with their own personal rage, not the rage of other people or the anger, you know, because obviously, you said it doesn’t always present in rage, right?

I think the people who work with me and attend my class are typically a mixture of people who have a hard time controlling their emotions and their anger. And they tend to stuff it. So they realize, and that’s what I think is so cool right now is that people are recognizing that stuffing their anger is a problem, too. Because I didn’t think it was a problem. I thought I deserved a medal. I thought, hey, I’m ready. I’m not gonna show my anger to anybody. But man, did I pay a price on the inside with stress and anxiety? So the fact that people are coming saying, Yeah, you know what, I, I stuffed my anger. And then it leaks out in really mean comments. That, to me, is a really cool awareness that they understand that that’s hurting them.

Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, I’m just thinking of online stuff. I mean, you know, some people are so mean, like, just got angry, and I’m just like, holy shit, what I know. You know, it’s just, it’s just insane. I’m like, How can you possibly be so consumed with anger, and again, sometimes I think it’s like my sister, like, it’s an easy target, right? You don’t always realize sometimes there’s a human being on the other side that you’re, you’re actually being abusive to?

Well, and I think the whole email texting communication has really lent itself to people feeling like they can say whatever they want, and not have any reaction coming back to them. So they don’t realize how hateful they sound. You know, that’s why a lot of times when I tell people I work with, you know, don’t send any emotional communication via electronic means, because the other person is not going to read the tone, they’re gonna make their own assumptions about it. And it’s not going to go well. Because when we think about it, right, I can write something to you and I can feel pretty damn free. Because I’m like writing in a journal.

Yeah.

But I would probably never say what I wrote to you on the phone.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because I know it would be hurtful. There’s some part of me that knows, that would be a bigger risk. And that’s what I want people to realize is if you don’t feel comfortable saying it in person or on the phone, it’s probably something you need to figure out how to say in a different way.

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes, you know, obviously, people do it online to people they don’t know, like, there’s like online fights, or like customer service reps. Like, you know, I’ve worked in E commerce for years at businesses, and I even worked in customer service. But some of the things that people write in or say to people answering the phone who just don’t have the power or didn’t, cause the problem is just shocking to me.

Yeah. And that’s where I think validation can be a really good tool when you’re around somebody who’s angry to just validate the content of what they’re saying, and their frustration. But again, you have to be careful if it’s rage, you’re probably not going to want to do that you’re probably going to want to remove yourself. Because yeah, I mean, it can get too intense.

Yeah. And so if you’re the person raging online or on the phone to customer service people or whatever, in a way, you know, and that it’s, it’s really not about whatever it is, you’re just sort of feeling like you need to lash out, or it is but it’s you know, not appropriate, not you know what I mean? What would you do in that situation? Because I know it’s so hard when that builds up within you.

Well, that’s where the rating scale comes in. So when people take my class and they get to that point, they

35:00

realize, oh, wait a minute, I’m in negative thought, My heart is racing, I’m probably a six or seven right now. And I’m starting to screen. So all of that information is going to help them remove themselves and practice self care. But in the moment, if you’re not going to be able to do that, if you can’t recognize the signs, people can’t catch themselves in a rage. If they haven’t done this work. The rage takes over. And we just, you know, have to keep spouting it until we’re done, unfortunately.

Yeah. And so when you talk about practicing self care, can you give us a couple of different examples of like, oh, yeah, that possibly could look like.

Mm hmm. So one of them you said, which I loved was taking a walk, getting outside, getting your body moving. I like writing, because you can give the uncensored version on the page and not hurt anyone by calling a friend saying, Hey, I’m really frustrated, do you have a few minutes? But I would be careful who you call, because sometimes we call people that are going to fuel our anger. And we don’t want that. We want to call the person who’s going to be reasonable, who’s going to be supportive, but not want to feel that and get us more and more frustrated? Because they’re joining with us? Yeah, and that’s probably something that’s good to do when you’re not raging to kind of write down who those people would be.

Yeah. And I know that when I get super frustrated with my husband, I call my best friend. And I do that, as she’s known both of us since we were 25 years old, to literally 20 years. So I know, she knows all the good stuff, and all the frustrating stuff. And if I, if I vent, literally all the things to her, she’s not going to think he’s a bad human being, you know what I mean? She’s not going to be like, Oh, my God, he’s the worst you need to do XYZ.

Right. Right. Yeah. Well, that’s, that’s your lifesaver, because you really trust the feedback you’re getting. So you can go to her in a vulnerable space and not feel like you’re going to lose it.

Yeah, for sure. And she does it for me too, because I know she is 80% good. And 20% you got to be kidding me, you know?

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Right.

37:26

So call someone, walk, get outside, get nature but call someone who isn’t going to you know, feed it more, because sometimes I’ve read that, like, venting is not always helpful.

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Yeah, you don’t want to vent in a way that is destructive. So again, the venting, like if I call you, and all I’m doing is blaming my husband, he did this, he did this, he did this, he’s never gonna change, then I’m going to be more upset when I leave the conversation than when I started it. But if I vent to you, and I’m saying, God, I’m really frustrated now. Yeah, I may start with the other person’s behavior and my reaction to it, but as I keep talking, I’m going to talk more about me and what I need to do and what this means, you know, why am I so upset? You know, I had a crappy day. And I realized that my kid yelled at me and there’s all these other things. So that’s where it becomes healthier venting. When you don’t stay in that blame game, that’s what’s going to be destructive.

Yeah, you know, what’s interesting to me is so I do core energy coaching, which is something I’m certified in and and we sort of go through you know, the seven levels of energy which is basically your, the way you react and interact with the world like what your default is, everyone has a preference, but there is sort of level one which is which is in stress, which is victim like feeling powerless to change your situation feeling like you don’t have more, you know, any options which is like worry, guilt, self pity, disappointment, all those things. Level two is called the fighter and that’s where all the feelings of like blame, resentment, anger, irritation, all those things come up. And we act you know, a couple of things about that one, when you’re in level two, we find it really helpful to say, as opposed to he’s to blame. This is bullshit. What the, you know what the final thing is, like, I’ve been treated unfairly, to say like, it sounds stupid, but like, wow, I’m feeling a lot of level two energy, which is that distance. Yeah. Why am I feeling that way? You know, just just that separation, but also when someone’s in level one like, you know, feeling like such a victim feeling self pity, whatever we it’s actually more healthy to move them to level two, because at least then they’re fighting for themselves at least then they’re recognizing

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This is not okay. Do you see that too?

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Yeah, I think what I see though, is the challenge of leaving the victim story because we can get trapped in it.

Yeah, I just did a YouTube video on this about resentment. The key with resentment or anger is that we have to be willing to change the story. But it’s interesting that you’re saying that in that level one, they’re easier to shift into a different story. Yeah, well, if they at least, you know, I mean, obviously, everybody gets something out of wherever they are. And if you’re a victim, you feel like a victim. I mean, the thing you get out of that is people feel sorry for you. You don’t have to try or change, therefore, you can’t fail.

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And you have a good story. Yet, you’re like it’s not your fault, right? Because you’re powerless and a victim and everybody else does this to you. When you move into level two, you know, then it’s like, okay, this is unfair. This is crap. Still not a healthy place to be, but at least you have some energy around him.

I love that. I love how you separate them.

Yeah. And then level three is like taking responsibility for your own part of it, coping. Yeah, you know, doing what you can, setting boundaries, all of those things, which can be scary sometimes.

Oh, yeah. And boundaries are a big part of anger, because so many people in my class have told me that they don’t say no. And that’s what leads them to stuffing their feelings and getting annoyed and resentful. So there’s definitely a connection, I think between anger and boundaries, and anger and self care and the lack of. Yeah, and resentment is almost always an unexpressed boundary that you should have or could have drawn.

Yeah, I like the way you put that unexpressed boundary. That’s really true. Because you’re really saying yes, when you mean no, yeah. Or you’re saying yes. And you wish you had said no. Right. But you didn’t feel right, kind of or you thought people wouldn’t like you, or would judge you or whatever it is.

Yeah, yeah. Powerful.

Yeah. So, you know, I know, one of the things we we talked about, before we jumped on the podcast was I kind of asked you where anger usually presented, you know, and was talking about spouses and possibly at work and with parents, and you said, the most common that you saw were spouses, but also children, which can be a big source of shame. And, you know, we talk all the time like, yep, your kids can be big triggers to drink and, and that’s just a fact. You know, like, it’s, it’s hard being a mom, but tell me about that.

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Well, I mean, yeah, being a mom is the hardest job ever, especially if you’re an at home, mom, and you are

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you have a kid that might be outside of the box, or has their own emotions that you can’t handle. I mean, sometimes we don’t, you know, we don’t really talk about yelling at our kids. Because, as moms, we feel really bad about that. And I know, you know, I wasn’t a big yeller when my son was little, but there were times when I did and I would have to go back and apologize. And he loved it. He loved it. But I had to own it, because I didn’t want him to learn that it was okay to yell. You know, it’s okay to get mad, but it’s not okay for me to, you know, do that. And I think that, as parents, we need to have that conversation that yeah, sometimes parenting will stretch us to the absolute limit. And sometimes that does look like yelling at our kids. And that isn’t the goal. But we need to be able to talk about that and find the tools to tame it.

Yeah, and a lot of that is, you know, taking breaks and asking for support. And, you know, I love the quote, like something about like telling moms all the time that they need wine, and it’s like, no, you don’t need wine you need a break. You need support, you know, self care, you need physical distance, like you need it, right. Oh, nap. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you’re exhausted. You’re tired. You’re, you know, nerves are shot, right? And it’s okay to tell your kid mommy’s upset right now. Mommy needs a break.

Yeah, I mean, really, because that’s going to be such powerful role modeling for them to see Oh, mommy’s upset. She’s not taking it out on me. She’s actually trying to handle it and calm down. That’s going to be huge. And that’s going to break that cycle of rage or stuffing that we all well most of us grow up with either or.

Yeah. And you know, I’m always when I talk to people you know, once you stop

45:00

drinking, you really need to, in the early days reduce as much overwhelm and stress as possible. Which, you know, I know it’s hard if you’ve got three kids at home.

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And um, you know, you actually save a decent amount of money when you’re not drinking, I love the done drinking app, which literally will calculate how much money you’re saving. So for me in my first month, I save 550 bucks, which is crazy. And so, basically, I’m like, take that money, and get babysitters, you know what I mean? Give yourself a couple hour break for like up, join a gym that has childcare. So you can like double duty or whatever, you know, obviously, yeah, you can also trade with neighbors and ask your spouse to come home, you know, early for a certain amount of time, or whatever it is, but like, you know, drinking is sort of the quick, easy button that is super unhealthy and unhelpful, but in the moment works, to numb you out. And when you stop doing that, you actually need more time to decompress, and you have to find a way to get it.

Right. Absolutely. And to get enough support so that you’re not isolated and need that drink to cope is really important. Yeah, yeah, cuz, you know, a lot of times, they’re no one to talk to. And, you know, it can feed into I mean, I know when, when I had my children, it was just Oh, my God, they’re screaming at you. And you’re like, Yeah, I have an M talking when they’re babies, which is it? But it’s like, I have given every ounce of myself and all my time for the last like three months, and you’re still screaming, right? You know, in that moment?

Well, and that’s why we have to kind of be kind to ourselves when we do react in anger, because it’s human. But, you know, we also want to take that as a warning sign of, okay, maybe I need some tools, because it’s okay to get angry. It’s not okay to rage. And it’s not to be scary. And that’s always the goal.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that, you know, you see anger, which I love. For a lot of women, it’s just automatic. Like, I want to drink. I need one.

Yeah, I you know, because it’s such a shorthand, it’s just become, you know, and I always say like, once you get through that initial first month, when, of course, you want to drink, right, you’re in physical withdrawal, and you’re, you’re dealing, you know, you don’t have that habit of doing something else. Like later, when that happens. That’s actually sometimes a very helpful sign that, you know, the canary in the coal mine, if you want to drink, okay, something needs to change, like, quickly, something is wrong. And so I’m always like, you know, why do you want to drink? Are you tired? Are you overwhelmed? Are you angry? Are you frustrated? Like, how else can you solve for that emotion?

Yeah, and I think part of what’s so hard and early recovery, when you’re trying not to do a bad habit, whether it’s drinking or food, or whatever substance it is, it is, it’s like, you have to be willing to check in with yourself, even if it’s just for 10 minutes, like, okay, in those 10 minutes, how are you feeling what’s causing you to want to get out of your body, and drink. And sometimes that’s when writing to me is really powerful to just put it on the page and just say, Man, I am coming out of my skin. And this is why because, you know, I, the things I heard and programmed early on was that if you wait 10 or 15 minutes, a lot of times the craving will go away.

Yeah. If you do something productive in those 10 or 15 minutes, if you ruminate, then yeah, that’s not gonna help. But it’s like, sometimes it’s that one minute at a time, right? We just have to see what’s going on right now that’s making me want to drink or use a substance to numb myself. And that’s a really important part of recovery.

And so, does everybody have different things that trigger their anger? How do you get to understand in advance what your buttons are?

Well, I think the situations are different, but the triggers are similar. So a lot of times, tone of voice is a big trigger for people feeling disrespected, feeling unsafe, feeling scared. There’s certainly some patterns in that, but how they show up is more about our own unique story. Like for me, I dated a guy that was chronically late. And it just bugged me. Until one day I realized, why am I so upset? Like, this guy is great. He’s 15 minutes late to everything but you know, it’s not a horrible thing. And I realized that because I waited so much as a child because my dad was a captain of a cargo ship and he was gone.

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For a lot of times, I didn’t have the tolerance to wait. And I equated in my mind waiting for someone that they didn’t care about me. And when I, when I realized what the trigger was, I was like, Oh, it has nothing to do with him being late. It has everything to do with how I’m interpreting the situation. And that’s where if you can start to dive into what your triggers are and what meaning you’re assigning them, that’s gold, that’s going to really help you understand why you’re reacting in the moment. And when you’re going to need to opt out.

Yeah, yeah. So whether I mean, I love you know, what you said about like, what meaning you’re assigning to it, because I also like, hate being late. I feel a lot of anxiety if I’m late. And

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you know, I hate it when my husband’s late for me with friends. It doesn’t bother me that much. But he like, you know, I literally, when we’re going somewhere, I pad like six different things. Usually when they’re 15 minutes early, and in my family where I’m always like, Man early, you’re late, but so we get there. And I’m like, it’s super rude if we’re late, and we show up. And he’s like, we’re the first people here. They do not want us here.

Yeah. Kind of funny.

Yeah, it is funny. But knowing your triggers is really helpful, because that’s when you know you have to practice some form of self care.

Yeah, but I do feel like if someone’s late, and it’s more myself, or him, maybe work stuff, too. It’s not really with my friends. I do feel like it’s disrespecting.

Yeah. Well, that’s the piece affecting someone that yes, I know. That’s the mayor time. For I feel like they’re, I feel like if I do it, I’m basically stating that I’m more important than them. That kind of stuff. Well, there’s the story. Right?

I know. And, you know, for my husband, it’s like water off a duck. Like he doesn’t. None of those messages go through. And sometimes I look at him and I was like, God, it must be nice to wander through life feeling that way, like not feeling all that like, self imposed anxiety, if I’m running 10 minutes late.

Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s why we’re in recovery one day at a time, right? Because usually, we’re gonna deal with the next right thing and, and react less and less over time. But yeah, I’m right there with you. I totally get it.

Well, one of the things I know that you work on with people is how to communicate effectively and become a better listener. So will you tell me about that? I mean, I know you mentioned less about what they’re doing, like telling them that because that can build blame and defensiveness and everything else. And, you know, talking about how it makes you feel, but you know, yeah, tell me about the best practices for communicating effectively.

So definitely coming from a place of AI, it doesn’t mean you have to say I feel every five minutes, okay, I’m gonna do that. But it’s more about, hey, let me share my concern with you, this is what I don’t feel comfortable with. Because then I’m sharing it from a place of opinion and subjective fact, versus this is what you’re doing wrong. This is what’s not okay, right, because that’s more of a right wrong. And that’s where we get off track really, really fast. The other thing is timing. You know, if I approach a conversation, and the other person isn’t ready, or I’m already a five on the scale, it’s not going to go well. So if you can really be mindful of, okay, I know talking about the money is gonna be a difficult deal. Maybe we need to plan it, maybe we need to both be ready. Because if we don’t, then it’s gonna end up exploding really, really quickly. And you know, the other part is, with healthy communication, we have to be really mindful of any assumptions we’re making. And that’s where the defensiveness comes in, is, I might be in conversation with someone and think they just think I’m stupid. But they never actually said that. But if that’s what I heard growing up, I am going to more likely hear somebody in that same vein, because I’m used to that type of criticism. So I might have to say, Hey, did you mean to say that I was stupid? And then they’ll say, No, I didn’t at all. That’s not what I mean at all. But that’s going to help me check out what my negative assumption is versus assume that I’m right, and then run with it. And it destroys the communication because I’m really super defensive at that point.

Yeah, for sure. And I know that, at least with me, it depends on what I think of myself, whether it’s something I’m insecure about, for whatever reason, because you know, people will say something to me, and I’m just like, I shrug. I’m like, Yeah, that’s cool.

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Really untrue? I don’t believe that about myself at all. And therefore it’s, you know, just flies over my head. I’m just yeah, just barely registers. But if I feel like it’s something that I have internal fears about, that’s where your wounds are more.

Oh yeah. And you know, communication and maybe anger management is never going to be perfect, right? That’s not the goal. But the goal is to get better and to start making sure that your communication is clean.

And the other thing I do, honestly, I used to do this a lot. I don’t have to do it so much anymore. But before a difficult conversation, I would literally write out a little script like two or three sentences, what do I really need to say? Because what happens a lot in poor communication is we do it off the cuff. And then we go on and on and on. And the more we go on, and on and on, the more we can blame the other person versus tightening that up and going, Okay, what is my concern? What do I want out of this conversation? Because if I go in with a specific plan, I’m going to be tight, I’m going to be clean. And I’m going to be like, This is what my concern is. And can we talk about this? And they’ll be like, yeah, versus Well, I’m really upset. And I can’t believe you did this. And then all of a sudden, I’m talking about what happened five years ago.

Yeah. Right.

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And so I think having a plan, literally two or three sentences, because if you get beyond that, then you’re really you’re kind of loosening it up, and it may get, you may get lost in it.

Yeah. And it definitely sounds like that type of expression. Most of the time, you’re either establishing a boundary that you need or expressing a need, right? Yeah, like in terms.

Yeah. Like, I’m so pissed that you’re going out with your friends and you’re not doing XYZ. A lot of times it’s like, we don’t spend enough time together. And I don’t feel valued, right? That’s very different. Yeah, that is really different. And that’s where writing beforehand can be really helpful because it can get to what your coordinate is.

Yes. Yeah. And I can imagine talking to a therapist or talking to someone who has experience in this can really help you sort through it, because on your own, it’s like, okay, you’re pissed about this. Why? And what do you think that writing means? What?

Yeah, like the meaning you said, you’re assigning to the behavior, because a person might just be like, Dude, I got invited to this thing. And it sounds really fun. And you it’s like, you disrespect me. I’m in charge of kids. I have no fun. You don’t? Do you know, you don’t plan anything for me? Like it’s loaded? Yeah. Well, that’s why even though anger work is simple and easy to learn, you typically need somebody to walk you through it.

Yeah. And I know that you do that. So can you tell us a little bit about how you work with people? I know you have a workshop coming up, I believe you do.

So I do. One on one, anger counseling. But I can only do that with people who live in California, as a therapist, you’re limited to who you can work with. But that’s why I created my Calming Your Anger, Zoom class, I did it during COVID.

And boy, was it popular?

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Yeah, and anybody can attend, it’s four weeks. And it’s very tool heavy, because you are going to get in, get the tools, understand your anger, be able to name it and be able to have several different strategies to contain it early. And, you know, know when you can keep talking to your partner and know when you have to go. Because I think having that group support, what every group tells me in the feedback is that they feel so much better knowing that they weren’t alone. And it was so helpful to hear other people’s stories, because they felt like they were the only ones. Yeah, you know, it’s like 12 steps. It’s like, that’s your tribe. That’s who you’re going to, if you feel like you’re the only one on the planet, you’re going to feel embarrassed and ashamed. But if you’re with people who are struggling in the same way, it normalizes it, and it takes the judgment out of it. So my next one is March 31.

Okay, and so is that multiple weeks? Is it a group program? You know, is it live? How does that work?

It’s a live four week class on Thursdays from five to 630 Pacific Standard Time. I send an electronic e-workbook before each class so that people if they want you to do some writing, cause some people like homework, some people don’t. So I have a lot for both. And, yeah, it’s part lecture, but we definitely have room for people to share and talk and ask questions, because that’s really an important part of the process.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think that, you know, realizing that you’re not alone is huge, realizing that other people feel the same way that you do that you’re not a bad human being I

1:00:00

I mean, I don’t do 12 Step. But I’ve found that in online groups and talking to other people, you know, listening to podcasts when I was trying to stop drinking, I would, I would walk and listen to the bubble hour just hearing other women who feel like they, their stories, my story and the tools they’ve used to get out of it. So, I mean, I think some of the big takeaways that I’ve heard from you is, you know, pretending that everything is fine, is not a great solution, like stuffing it down, because everyone feels angry at times. And usually, it is for a reason, like it’s a call to identify what it is and to take better care of yourself.

Absolutely. Well said.

Yeah, I think that’s really helpful, because and also what I what I took away from this is the different ways of calling it because I also would be like, I’m not an angry price. And I actually am not. And yet I’m feeling all this anxiety or overwhelm or, you know, and that’s just, I believe, how I’ve manifested it in a way that’s more acceptable to me today. Like, oh, no, I’m a nice person. Yeah, I’m internalizing all of it and like taking it on my shoulders, because I feel like it would be bad to be angry.

Right, you know, right. Exactly. And those beliefs start in childhood, and they need to gently be confronted. Yeah, no, but that helps. Because I will be like, Oh, anger, that doesn’t apply me. That’s why especially women.

Yeah. Because we’ve been conditioned, right, right to right to do that, and also conditioned, that there will be negative consequences. If we are angry, we’ll lose our friends will lose approval, where, you know, it’s unacceptable, all that kind of stuff. It’s unattractive. Right? You know, right? Like, that’s, that’s a big one, too. So I hope that if you’re listening to this, and some of you know, some of this resonated with you, you’ll take the next step to kind of look at what tools you can use. And the reason I say that is, because for each one of us, there is you know, to some extent, a reason that we drank a reason that it works for us. And it can be resentments, or blame or anger or unexpressed boundaries, you know, or anxiety, all the things and I mean, I always tell people in the first two weeks when you stop drinking, you’re, you know, you feel like you’re walking around without your outer layer of skin. And you actually are because you, you know, you suddenly are more exposed without drinking and actually kind of hangovers. It puts this sort of film around you. But it is normal to feel rage. In those first couple of weeks, like justly, you just You’re so exposed and raw.

1:02:54

And so you know, you kind of need to take more time for yourself, you need to sort of build a bubble, to give yourself like that physical space. Even everything sounds too loud. Everything’s going too fast, you know? Right.

1:03:09

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Oh, thank you. It was wonderful talking to you. And we will put all of Michelle’s links and information and information on her zoom class, all of that kind of stuff in the show notes for this episode, so you can find it and get in touch.