SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking, quit, alcohol, sober, people, feel, book, life, curious, dopamine, months, January, day, substance, Dry January, removing, sobriety, addictive, thinking, quit, podcast

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Ruby Warrington

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Today we are talking about being sober, curious, and I have the perfect guest to bring you for this conversation. Ruby Warrington is the creator of the term Sober Curious. She’s the author of the 2018 book of the same title. And her work has spearheaded a global movement to reevaluate our relationship with alcohol. Other works include Material Girl mystical world, the numinous Astro deck, and the sober curious reset with 20 more years experience as a lifestyle journalist and editor. Ruby is also the founder of self-publishing imprint, numinous books, and is known as a true thought leader in the now age wellness space.

So Ruby, thank you so much for being here.

02:13

Well, thanks for having me, Casey.

Casey McGuire Davidson  02:16

Yeah, I’m so excited. I mentioned that I read your book, sober, curious. Right when it came out, I quit drinking in 2016. So, it was about when I was two years sober. And then I’ve been reading it in the lead up to this interview, and was underlining and circling every page, because there’s so much good stuff in there.

02:38

Thanks for that. It’s really, really great to hear that. And it’s great that it still resonates for you, you know, a few years down the line. Because I mean, if I’ve learned anything about this path of sobriety, sober curiosity, reevaluation, with the relationship with alcohol recovery, whatever you want to call it, it is that it’s a sort of evolutionary path. And I think, I don’t know, I feel like I’ve changed leaps and bounds like so much, even since I first wrote that book. And certainly, since I first got what I now call sober, curious, like 10 years ago.

Casey McGuire Davidson  03:10

Yeah, yeah. And I know you’ve written this sober, curious reset since then. So, we should absolutely. Talk about that as well. One of the reasons I wanted to have you on and that this episode is going to fall right in January of the year is because a lot of people take January as a time to take a break from alcohol right after the drinking and the year end and New Year’s. And kind of dry, January’s a thing that people stopped for 31 days. So, there are probably a lot of women who might be listening to this or in that stage, who are sober, curious, meaning that they are not sure they want to give up alcohol forever or what that means. But they’re interested enough to think that alcohol isn’t serving them or to see what that life looks like. Right?

04:02

Yes. So, as you said, dry January has become this phenomenon really, it launched. I think in the UK. I can’t remember which year it first started circulating there. But I know it’s grown sort of exponentially since then. And it’s sort of exported to the US a couple of years ago. And already I think in 2021 I was just reading about this 23% of Americans who drink regularly participated in dry January last year. And I can only imagine that that number has swelled for 2022. So, it’d be interesting to see what statistics are around that I come up, that almost a quarter of people who drink regularly are doing right and your why. One of the things I love about it is, it’s just “a thing”. Like, I know years ago, when I was in the office, people were like, Oh, I’m doing dry January so you will no longer be an outlier or even if people aren’t taking the months off. There’ll be like, yeah, I know that’s something people do.

05:02

Exactly. And so, it’s a one of the big barriers to entry for being open about the fact that you’re sober, curious, questioning your drinking, perhaps wanting to make a change is fear about what other people might say about that. And so having this kind of quote unquote, excuse I’m doing dry January just kind of takes the pressure off of having to explain yourself and explain all of your reasons. Because perhaps you’re not even really sure what your reasons are. And that’s like, totally okay, maybe you need to be to spend a bit more time being curious and to experiment and go back with some forwards and sort of overall, just get more intentional around your drinking before you feel comfortable talking about it. I definitely could relate to that. And so yes, for that reason, I also am a big fan of initiatives like dry January, sober September has also become quite a big thing. There’s dry July, rubber. So, it’s almost like less four months out of the year, you can kind of like take a break without having to answer too many probing questions about it.

So yes, I’m a big fan of dry January. And for anybody who’s doing it, my first sort of piece of advice around a successful dry January would be to really embrace this as a time to get curious about what your life could be like without alcohol. A lot of the times we approach a break as a bit of a detox. And often, we might go into it thinking, well, if I can get through a month without drinking…

1. That’s a great detox.
2. That probably cancels out lots of the drinking I might have done last year.
3. If I can do a month without drinking, that probably means I don’t have a problem, right? We can talk about like, how I might define problem drinking in a moment. But I think that if you go into it with the “you’re ready to do a Dry January”, chances are that you’ve been questioning for a while.

Is alcohol really serving me?
Am I drinking too much?
Would it be easy for me to stop hard for me to stop?

These kinds of questions are all the sorts of questions that somebody who is sober curious might be asking themselves, and oftentimes, they’re very internal, almost even subconscious questions. But there will come a time when those questions start to demand answers. And so, perhaps, a Dry January is a good time to go.

Okay, well, I’m actually going to take this opportunity to look at some of these questions that have been coming up for me around drinking. But oftentimes, when we think about removing alcohol, whether it’s for a month, whether it’s for a longer period, or even if it is, you know, removing it for good, we think about exactly that we’re losing out on we’re going to be missing out on something we’re losing, we’re removing something from our life, I really like to think about it more from the What am I going to be able to gain by not no longer using this substance by putting this aside, whether it’s for a shorter period or a longer period? So really thinking about like, what are the things that I actually want to make space for in my life, by removing alcohol? I mean, when I look back now, it just, it blows my mind how much time and energy and money I put into my you know, what looked from the outside, like just kind of normal social drinking. When I think about how many hours a day I spent thinking about drinking, then how many hours of the week I spent actually under the influence of alcohol. How many hours sleep I lost, kind of in those, I’m sure many people can relate to that three 4am kind of waking up heart pounding like a and how many mornings have I sort of lost to just even being half hungover?

Yeah, you know, all of that time, all of that energy, all of that headspace, all of that physical energy in terms of just the detoxing the removing alcohol from your system, it really can take its toll. Especially when you’re living a busy life, you have kids, you have a job, you have a partner, and you have other things that you want to do probably as well. You don’t just want to be a mom and a wife and a good employee, you want to have time for yourself as well. Right. And so, for me, thinking about removing alcohol, automatically, I’m thinking about all of the time and energy that that will free up for me to invest in other things.

Casey McGuire Davidson  09:08

Yeah, I love that because it is so true. I mean, once you stopped drinking, even for 30 days, you know, in the first two weeks, it tends to be really hard, especially if you’re I was a daily drinker, right. So, you know, coming home from work was a trigger to drink going out to dinner. My kids being difficult, a stressful day at work, everything was kind of a trigger to drink. And you have to build that muscle of instituting a new habit not drinking alcohol during that time. But then after the first week or two weeks, all of a sudden, you have so much more time. You’re just like, oh my gosh, I’m not zoned out where I’m not really registering the time or just hungover so you’re not really productive in the morning or you’re not going to your workouts or whatever it is. So, I love that you said that, you know, you’re opening up time, everything you’re gaining by not drinking.

10:10

Absolutely. And it can take longer. I mean, you know, it’s interesting that the sober curious book Facebook group where people are really vulnerable and really open and really supportive of each other. And half the people will be in there saying, Oh, my God, I’ve only I quit five days ago. And already, I just like, feel like my life is completely different. I’ve got so much energy and other people in there, like, I’m a month and a half in, and I’m still feeling kind of sluggish. And so, it’s I think, yeah, tendency to sort of almost want like an immediate change. And it’s not always that that’s going to be the case. And so really sticking with it, if it is more challenging in the beginning, and knowing that over time, you are going to be building that mental muscle, your body will be detoxing from the substance and just trusting that over time, even if it’s not happening, immediately, we’ll start to see the benefits. This is why. So, my second book, the sober, curious reset, which you mentioned, actually takes people through 100 days of not drinking. And I know that is an intimidating amount of time, that’s like a third of a year three it just over three months. But in my experience, and anecdotally, amongst so many of the people that I’ve kind of, you know, connected with on this path over the past 10 years, that amount of time, you can pretty much be guaranteed, you’re going to be feeling you’re really going to be feeling the benefits.

Casey McGuire Davidson  11:27

Oh, I love that, you know, when I work with women, actually 100 days is what I ride that throws a haze that milestone can be kind of tricky, because some people, you know, your brain can just say, Yeah, I’m feeling better. But I did 30 days, I’m gonna forget about the three years that I couldn’t get four days. And I’m probably better I can drink again, and stop whenever I want. But if you go on longer, if you go for 100 days, you go through these ups and downs, and you have to go to a wedding or holiday or a birthday celebration, not drinking and sort of experimenting and seeing what’s better. And I agree. And once you get to 100 days, typically people are like, I can’t imagine going back to living the way I was before. I want to see how good I feel at six months, you know, and just kind of moving those mileposts.

12:20

Exactly. And if you really think about it in the grand scheme of your whole life, three months is really it’s such a small slice of time, you know? So yes, but I appreciate it can sound intimidating. And definitely for anyone who is interested. I mean, we’re kind of getting ahead of ourselves, people still in their dry January. They’re like what you want me to do February, march do? Yeah, you don’t have to do your January, see how you go. But I think is really worth mentioning that if you can just give it that little bit longer. And resource yourself whether it’s with a coach, therapist, community support, the suit my book. So, the curious we set is kind of like a day by day kind of check in companion guide to take you through those 100 days. Honestly, it came out in December 2019. So, but it’s so it’s been this past year now hold on 2020. So, I sort of feel like we’ve lost a year, which we have in a way. So, over this past year, I’ve just been seeing people complete these 100 days, and overwhelmingly what I hear is exactly what you just shared. I cannot imagine why I would go back. And so even if after that extended break, people are occasionally having a drink here and there. They’re far less likely to slip back into old habits, because the habit really has been broken after three months. Yeah. And so, you’ve really got sons, tons of resources, tons of information, tons of lived experience to actually inform your drinking choices going forward, wherever they

Casey McGuire Davidson  13:50

might be. And I have to say, you know, they always do, I don’t typically use the word recovery, but maybe it’s knowledge, maybe it’s curiosity or experience, but they say, recovery really ruins you for drinking. And I found I actually I took about three or four months off. The first time I quit drinking, and then I went back I then I got pregnant. So, I technically took a year off, but it really was three or four months. And I learned a lot I joined some of the secret groups I had read all the Quizlet I actually felt so much better. And after my daughter was born, I had sort of disconnected during the time of my pregnancy in my mind was going maybe I’m better. I left my stressful job. I’m in this new phase, I’m happier. Not attributing the fact that I was so much happier because I wasn’t drinking and enjoying this depressing and anxiety inducing drug. But I went back to drinking thinking that it would be like a couple glasses of wine, you know, on a date night with my husband. And I have to say like within a month I had you know While back in my house, within two months, I was drinking daily. Within three months, I was drinking a bottle of wine or more a night. So, it took me 22 months to stop again, which is awful, because I was not having fun during that time. I mean, sometimes I was, but a lot of it was like passed out on the couch and waking up at 3am. But I did know enough, I knew that I felt so much better. Without it. I knew what alcohol did to me. I knew every morning when I woke up, this is unsustainable. So even having that period, you’ll get there eventually. Because you have the information.

15:39

Exactly. And thank you for sharing that. I think that to me just illustrates exactly how powerful of a drug alcohol is, which we don’t often think about because it’s legal, because it’s so socially acceptable and readily available, because it’s so glamorized. We don’t think about alcohol in the same category as a drug like heroin and cocaine. But it’s actually it is as addictive as these very hardcore substances, you know. And so, I’m, in terms of there’s a whole chapter on this and so curious, called the nature of the beast, and it just kind of helps to explain, look, there’s nothing you’re not, if you find your willpower lacking in this area, or you find yourself moderating or going back to it quitting and going back to it multiple times. There’s nothing wrong with you. It’s kind of designed that way. Yeah. Like, you’re up against a really, really powerful adversary here. So just kind of keep at it. And like you said, as well, once you’ve, the more the more lived experience, the more positive memories around sobriety, you can gather for yourself and kind of have in your backpack and having your memory bank, the more you’ll be able to, like you said, every time you wake up having had another binge when you hadn’t planned to when you really hadn’t want to you wake up, you’re hating yourself, why’d they do that? Again, I’m so weak, I’m a failure. I’m pathetic. You can remind yourself but wait, I Oh, I know, I don’t have to feel this way. And I know how good I can feel when you wake up without any alcohol in my system. And that is a really, really powerful motivator.

So, I’m a big fan. I mean, typically, it takes I mean, it took me probably, yeah, from first questioning my drinking in like 2010 to until sort of three, three years ago, really only around the time that the first book came out that I fully kind of like fully quit. So yeah, it took me about seven years of backwards and forwards and experimentation and being curious and gathering information and loving myself through all of it anyway, as much as I could. Yeah, I see myself at times, being really disappointed with myself at times, and just kind of keeping going with it. And keeping trusting those glimmers of like that life feels so good. When I don’t, you know, I feel so good when I don’t, even the hard times, are better, actually, when I don’t. And that’s such a myth as well. You think during the pandemic, so many people came to lean on alcohol as a way to manage stress, anxiety, and just to escape honestly, from this very kind of like locked down situation that we found ourselves in like alcohol provides an escape hatch from our life. But ultimately, it’s such a trick, because we’re not really escaping anywhere good. You know, we’re not really escaping anywhere we go. And, and the reality is we can’t actually escape from our lives, our life is our life. And the more we can learn to just kind of like show up for it day in day out whatever is presenting, the more resilience we develop, the more the more confidence we develop in our own capacity to kind of like get through and make things work even when they don’t feel like they are. So, all of that stuff is really character building. But it’s definitely not. I think it’s important to just kind of acknowledge there’s no quick fix, to quitting drinking, or even to kind of like really changing your drinking habits going forward. It’s always a case of trial and error. It’s always going to be even people who are going to rehab and who are going to 12 Step programs. There’ll be in and out often multiple times before actually sticks.

Casey McGuire Davidson  19:04

If you’re listening to this episode and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®. The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study, sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step-by-step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one-on-one coaching. And The Sobriety Starter Kit® is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it, when it fits into your schedule.  You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time. This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step-by-step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life. You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better, you’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course.

And it is a process. I mean, I remember the first time that I was worried about my drinking, and sort of wrote down like maybe I have a problem, I was reading drinking a love story, my son was six months old. And I stopped that first time when he was five. And I stopped for the last time when he was eight. And that was almost six years ago. But you know, during that process, I you know, was walking into work being like, Oh, my God, I should stop. This is bad, what’s wrong with me. And then reading and you know, researching and following different things. And so, you know, it is if you’re in that place where you you’re frustrated that you’ve been stopping and starting and stopping again, all of that is progress. The fact that you’re listening to this means you are sober, curious, you think, or you have hope that your life would be better without alcohol, which is what you say in the book. And I love that because it’s so true. And you know, you’re making progress. So, if it’s the first week, the second week, the third week of January, start again and add more resources, add some help add community.

22:17

Absolutely, exactly. It really is all a process. It’s all and it’s all valuable. You know, I even talk in the book about like, you know, I quit calling them relapses at a certain point. And I was like, No, it’s just another reminder. You know, it was just another reminder of why I don’t do this. Okay, I got another reminder, you know, yeah, the longer periods of abstinence you can get under your balance, the easier it will be to rebound, and not go deeply back into it. Again, I do believe that just from what I’ve seen, and from my own experience, but of course, again, a part of the sober curious message, that’s probably different from more traditional approaches to again, recovery that are word which I don’t particularly use for this, I do love, I love the concept of recovery and explain to you if you’re interested, what I do like about it, but um, the difference really is that this is not really about a one size fits all approach.

It’s super, super bespoke to you, the individual and it’s really designed to kind of like meet you exactly where you’re at with your individual needs, with your experiences with your life challenges. Rather than just this sort of like, here’s a program, follow these steps, and you will come out the other side, kind of, “cured”. That works for some people. I knew it was never going to work for me. And so, because I also didn’t identify as an alcoholic, I mean, to define my drinking when I first got sober, curious. I was drinking probably 444 nights a week, maybe five Max, I’d always make sure I have at least two three days of no drinking at all. One or two glasses of wine during the week. A bit of a binge at the weekend. And yes, I was a weekend binge drinker. But everybody in my social circle drank the same amount if not more than I did. I never missed a day of work. I never blacked out. I never got sick. Like I’ve never had any of these kind of like, really negative side effects that are what we think problem drinking looks like I was a normal drinker.

Yeah, I was a normal social drinker. And yet, I knew that this substance, I just had an intuition that this substance was taking more from me than I was taking from it, you know? Yeah. And so, and sometimes they feel like if you’re, if you’re if you’ve never reached a really bad rock bottom, sometimes it can take a lot longer to actually quit because you’ve got no kind of urgent desperate need to quit right and so you can kind of like you can ride that I’m not really loving it but hey, I’m still I’m still getting everything done. still showing up. Yeah, still successful on these things. And you yet, Something’s just not quite right. For me, it was just kind of constant anxiety, I had constant anxiety. I wasn’t sleeping through the night; everything would stress me out. Everything would have my mind just racing, racing anxiety got, I felt like it was constantly on edge.

25:21

Yeah. And so, I went back same way, and I attribute it to alcohol. No, not at all. For me, alcohol was how I relaxed, it was how I switched all of that off, it was how I actually got to just kind of like kick back and be present with my friends and like, have fun. And so, it was only when I started experimenting with removing it that I realized, which I think Annie Grace talks about in this naked mind. And that book was a real game changer for me as well, just in the kind of mindset shift around alcohol. It was only when I realized when I removed it, that I realized actually how much real estate was taking up in my life.

Casey McGuire Davidson  25:51

Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I’m glad that you said it’s not one size fits all, or not a formula. Because I think the idea, and even women who are listening to this, a lot of them think it’s either 12 Step, or rehab or nothing. And I feel like that’s really changing. Because I also don’t identify as an alcoholic, I identify as someone who used to drink and quit, because I feel much better without it. And you know, also with addictive and also it causes anxiety and depression, and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I went to some 12 step meetings, and it just didn’t resonate with me like I was rebelling against, internally against all the concepts and dogma and instructions, despite meeting the most lovely people in there. And so, I partially two was like, Well, if this is I don’t, I don’t go to church, I’m not religious, I was like, if this is the option, I don’t want that. And so, I think that what I love about your book, is it goes through in detail really highlighting the benefits of not drinking, including, you know, obviously the negatives, the tooth grinding, waking up at 3am feeling awful. But also, you know, the idea that that alcohol is really a stick, you said, and I circled it a second rate standard and for the joy, inspiration, confidence, connection, and overall sense of aliveness that, you know, once you gave it up.

27:33

Right, exactly. We have access to all of the things with that we think alcohol is going to give us we have access to all of those feeling states, all of that relaxation, all of that joy, all of that happiness, all of that connection, all the things that you just listed, right, we have access to all of that we’re naturally designed to generate these positive feelings within us. And of course, so many things about our lives today, make that really, really hard. You know, when we’re using alcohol to try to access those naturally generated positive feeling states, we’re sort of like outsourcing our own ability to generate these feelings for ourselves to a substance, which ultimately, yeah, takes a huge physical toll on our physical, mental and emotional well-being. So, again, it’s only when we remove it that we sort of start to I don’t know, I think I’m curious to hear how you feel about this. I just, It’s certainly an early day, and it’s kind of like, it’s worn off a bit now. But I think only because I’m just more used to it now. But I would find the subtlest things would make me smile or make me laugh things that I would have just missed when I was using alcohol for all of my sort of joy and relaxation, because I was so kind of on this one track. Work drink you know, so now, I’m now… I’m just like, wow, I’ll you know, go out for a walk at the end of my work day and just have my breath taken away by the sunset and just like sit and look at the sunset for five minutes and like feel so at peace just from that, which sounds kind of cheesy. In a way in this world where we live in this really high octane kind of world where there’s all of these fancy flashy things for us to buy and consume to make us feel good. We forget that actually feeling good does is generated from within. And that very simple experiences can actually make us feel really good. Yeah. Then we kind of remove some of those very, very kind of like, like I said, high octane like dopamine saturated experiences of which Alcohol is just one of many, you know, yeah,

Casey McGuire Davidson  29:47

well and you know, I love that you said that about your sort of outsourcing your ability to feel joy at normal stimulus, normal things in life, and then the dopamine Because I actually interviewed Anna Lemke, who wrote dopamine nation on this podcast. And she gave such a great description about how drinking or any drugs actually suppresses your body self regulates to bring down your level of dopamine that your body naturally produces. And you’re not imagining it, that you’re less happy when you’re not drinking that is physically true, until you get further away from it. So, you can reset your levels and feel that joy. And I remember, you know, I was probably 45 days after quitting drinking two months, before I stopped, I was like, I need to quit my job, I’m miserable. I can’t cope. Everything’s too much. I feel like I’m gonna break. And I was driving into work got out of the car. I live in Seattle, Washington, and was walking across the parking lot at 8am. And Mount Rainier without and all these birds were taking off from this field. And all of a sudden, I felt this pure joy and was like, I love my life. And it was a day I’m heading into work on like, a Tuesday. And I was just like, wow, you know, I love that.

31:16

I love that. Yes. And I think what Anna Lemke speaks about is so true. You know, she talks about how we live in this kind of like we live in a world that’s kind of designed to overstimulate our dopamine system, our dopamine responses. So, we’re almost living in a constant state of withdrawal when we’re not getting high on whatever our substance of choices, alcohol, as we’ve discussed, being one of the most socially acceptable, readily available, drugs that there is, but I mean, I, you know, I definitely have experienced workaholism, I definitely experienced email addiction, social media addiction, shopping addiction, although it’s funny with me and shopping addiction, I never actually buy anything. My shopping addiction is just kind of like obsessing over finding the perfect thing. And then spending hours on different apps trying to find it and comparing prices. And then like almost I never buy it. And it’s almost like, I know that the pleasure for me comes from the like looking for it. That’s when the dopamine is kind of like really coursing, you know, is just the kind of like seeking it. So, I have to employ what she describes as self-binding techniques. Yes, delete all the apps off my phone. Yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson  32:25

Well, she describes that that the dopamine hit is before you take the first drink. It’s when you anticipate so when you stop debating, and you kind of say fuck it, that’s when you get the dopamine hit. And it’s because of your reward system, your cue craving reward response. So, it’s sort of like Pavlov’s dogs, right? Where initially, they were salivating at the food, and eventually they were salivating at the bell, you know?

32:53

Exactly, which is just I think it’s really empowering. To understand that actually, it’s in our power to disrupt that. And also, that dopamine reward system is being manipulated and stimulated by constantly and purposefully. So, this is what Ana speaks about as well is that it’s actually on us as individuals to develop the COPE. Coping because the resilience, the resources, the awareness, to not get caught up in those in those kinds of cycles of craving.

Casey McGuire Davidson  33:27

Yeah, and if it’s a conditioned response, you can change it. Like that’s the good exactly build new habits, you can build new rewards.

33:35

Exactly. So, she also talks about you know, doing a dopamine fast to reset use this word to reset our dopamine levels, basically. So that we can experience joy at the sight of a sunrise, or you know, birds flying over a mountain, on the way to work. I love that. That was your moment. That’s some that’s so sons. And that’s exactly what a dry January is, in essence, it’s a dopamine fast. Yeah, you know, you’re giving your body you’re giving your brain in a neural pathway an opportunity to reset. And with a substance like alcohol, if you’ve been using it daily, potentially, even a little bit longer, can help because, you know, so I know all about this because I also interviewed Anna for my podcast. recently. I love her. Right, exactly. And she was talking about how many of many people naturally want to want to know can I moderate? Can I cut back my drinking? Can I still have a glass of wine at the weekend? You know, Can I drink like the quote unquote normal person, although I don’t know if that really exists. And she will say to them, only after you have done a dopamine fast. You must reset before you can even think about bringing it back in. So, this is what the sober curious reset. 100 day reset is all about. This is a dopamine fast and it’s a good length. It’s a solid length, but as you shed, You’re You didn’t drink for a year. Yeah, and that wasn’t really long enough, or at least it didn’t. You may have been fully reset at that point. However, it doesn’t take long of being back into it to kind of get back into that same cycle again, particularly if it is something that your brain, your system is kind of used to and will therefore kind of latch quite easily back onto.

Casey McGuire Davidson  35:23

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that, that I say is that once you get sober momentum, it is precious. And it is hard to get in anyone who has tried to stop drinking or only drink once a week, or only have two glasses a night, a lot of women for years, and been unsuccessful. Know that when you get 30 days, 60 days, 100 days, that is really precious. And it’s kind of in my mind not worth fucking with, by drinking and rolling the dice to see whether seven days later you’re like, Oh, I’m gonna say fuck it again or say fuck it again. And I think the first time I didn’t, I stopped. One. I didn’t do the mental work. I didn’t do the work that you do in the sober curious book about truly what’s better? What am I enjoying how my life is changing? What’s improved, because when I stopped drinking that first time, I also left my very stressful job. And I took a sabbatical for three or four months. And then I was pregnant. So, I attributed the fact that I felt so much better to the fact I wasn’t going to work. And the fact that I was doing yoga and going running, and then pregnancy, right, so I didn’t consciously attribute and focus on how good I was feeling and how much was changing, simply because I wasn’t drinking alcohol. And I think when you’re aware of that, you’re when you talk about alcohol being a second rate stand in, and the hangovers you open, sober, curious talking about the awful hangover. And we all know what that feels like. You don’t want to go back to that if you kind of do the mental work and actually fill up your life with really awesome people and things when you’re not drinking.

37:13

Exactly. And I think again, it’s just proof of how seductive not only the substance of the marketing of the substance is the fact that we can gain so much of this hard, hard one. It’s like, I’m always getting a vision of like mining for diamonds, you know, this is hard work, you’re going to do this with your bare hands, you’re going to like there’s going to be some calluses on your hands, right, but you’ve got a diamond at the end of it. It’s so seductive that we forget. It’s so easy to forget. So, I will share something with you in the past three years that I haven’t dropped by have had a glass of wine on two occasions, because still, even with everything I know, I would said, Fine. I’m curious about the taste, or like, I just I don’t know, it’s been it’s been a really, really intense month and I just want to, but I went into it fully conscious, fully eyes open with all of my sober curious, like Intel right there. And you know, what was so interesting was that on both occasions, it just felt kind of shit. Like it wasn’t enjoyable. It wasn’t enjoyable. So, I think two occasions of just like testing the theory. Actually, that didn’t that didn’t taste great. And it definitely didn’t feel great in my body was it was again, more information. Yeah, you know.

Casey McGuire Davidson  38:32

It definitely is. And I think for me, and I’ve seen this with other women, like, if you sort of break this seal, you’re like, you know, it’s when you go off a diet, sometimes you’re like, oh god, I’ve already ruined it. So, I might as well drink a bottle, like I already ruined my streak. And so that’s something that I’m conscious of, but I’ve gotten really into all the great nonalcoholic drinks like so. You know, I just tried Gruvis nonalcoholic red blend, and I drink their Prosecco and bubbly Rosé and I love athletic nonalcoholic beer. So, you know, the idea of like the taste the experience, the moment I just found substitutes for that.

39:16

Yeah, me too. And I’m so grateful it really has been over this exact same time period since my book came out that there have been just this huge explosion of amazing alcohol free options coming through so yes, I likewise. Yeah, joy all of those products that you just and then also like when you need a break or relax or a hard month. You know, I’ve gotten much better in sobriety about being like I need to take some days off at work or I need a massage, or I need to get out of dodge with my best friend and not with my husband and not with my kids. So, I always am like, just tap into if you want To drink, that’s pretty normal. But like think about, okay, you want to drink but you’re not drinking right now you’ve made this commitment. You want to see how good you feel at the end of it? Why do you want to drink? Like, what’s the emotion that you’re trying? Is it you’re bored or lonely or feel like you’re missing out on the celebration? Because there are a million ways to solve for that. We’ve just gotten really lazy about like, the easy button of alcohol.

40:26

Exactly what is lazy, but also conditioned, you know, you’re right. It’s your right, the conditioning. And it’s the availability and it is a very sticky psychological residue. Yeah. Around this thing brings me pleasure. This is how I realized, yeah, you know, the first time I had a glass of wine, it was like, I think, August 2020. So, it was like, you know, middle of the pandemic, middle of the George Floyd kind of protests in New York, it was just everything felt so intense. And it really felt like there was no escape that escaped thing again. And so of course, even with everything I know, my brain still went to a glass of wine to escape. Yeah. But like I said, it just didn’t, it didn’t work for me in the way that it used to. Because I have become a devote so much awareness around how my body feels, how my body responds. All it felt was just kind of like, dull, numb, not pleasurable, not happy. It didn’t bring me what I wanted. And so actually, I was able to just say, no, okay, that doesn’t work for me. And yeah, that was a good experiment. Exactly. And I do think that the pandemic has obviously presented its own very specific, huge challenges in terms of how do we find alternative ways to relax, switch off unwind, took away a lot of the things that we use to relax, like, going to a workout class, going out to a restaurant, going to yoga, going to work and going out going to see a friend, I mean, like, you know, just, you ain’t going to do it, all of that stuff.

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:01

Yeah. And it was scary. And we were trapped. And I think that one of the studies came out that binge drinking went up 40% during the pandemic, and most high for parents of two to five year olds. Yeah. Which understandably? Yeah, yeah, it’s so you know, because a lot of times they have daycare, or they have school, or, you know, you’re not 24/7 trying to do your job, and constantly with children without childcare.

42:27

Yeah, I mean, it’s, like impossible. I just, I don’t have kids, but I just can’t even imagine how what that situation is, then, like people. And I think it’s important just to pinpoint, people are coming out of sort of the end of this year feeling like, well, things might have got a bit out of control. It’s understandable. It doesn’t mean you’re not, there isn’t going to be work to do to kind of like reset and kind of get back to where you need to be. But I think just again, be kind to yourself, This is not about you being a weak willed person, or, yeah, it’s not even about you having like, an addictive brain or like whatever it is, it’s not, it’s been a very challenging time. Yeah, this is a tricky enough substance, at the best of times. And so just be kind to yourself, like, what’s, what’s done is done. All good. And where are you? Where are you? Where are you wanting to go from here?

Casey McGuire Davidson  43:18

Yeah, like, is alcohol making my life better? Do I want somebody different in my life? One of the things you’ve said in the nature of the beast chapter, you went through three pieces, and I think these feeds into what you were saying about don’t beat yourself up. This is tricky. You said that you have a theory, which I actually totally agree with. And I was laughing when you were saying, quote, unquote, normal drinker, because you suggest that anyone who drinks on a regular basis is probably kind of just a little bit addicted. And I truly believe that’s true. And then you go into three reasons and probably more about why that’s true, which is, you know, the biology of it. The brains are designed to seek that dopamine, you know, it’s designed to put you in withdrawal, when you’re not drinking, so you want it again, it’s so heavily marketed. I mean, we’ve been brainwashed since birth, to think that alcohol is like the end all be all that we need to make any occasion special. And then the third one was about the addictive substance, how addictive it is. So, I think you said addictive drinking is actually fairly standard, and I 100% agree with that.

44:34

Right. So oftentimes, in the beginning, I described the way my drinking life looked to you, you know, and in the beginning when I first started speaking to friends, you know, I remember saying to my best friend, you know, I really just I think I’m going to I’m really going to assess reassess this and I’m thinking cut back massively if not kind of, like, you know, stop for a bit. She’d be like, wait, but you don’t have a problem. You don’t have a problem, you only drink to have more fun, you know? And I was like, defined. I didn’t say this to her. But I might you know, now I’ve come to this sort of understanding which like, well, define problem. My problem is that alcohol was causing me back then didn’t look like the textbook like this is alcoholic drinking, you must stop the alcohol, the problems that alcohol was causing me then were very internal. They were only really perceptible to me. And yet, they were there with me all day, every day. I was obsessing about alcohol, I wasn’t sleeping, constant anxiety, often in tears, just the most kind of an it’s that similar thing about like having a dream job at the time I was working for this really cool magazine was a dream job. But you create assignments, a boss loved me. And I would sit at my desk just being like, is this it? Is this it? And it was, Oh, my God, I’m so entitled. And like Jesus, what more do I want? You know, I kind of was so much self-hatred in my questioning, like, how am I not satisfied with this? But yeah, I was in depression.

Yeah. Because of the alcohol that I was consuming. You know? Yeah, I did need to ultimately, my dream job, it turns out is working for myself. Being able to make my own schedule, as much as there’s, you know, financial instability that comes with that it’s actually really, really hugely valuable. To me, it sounds like maybe we’re similar. I have a very rebellious nature too, and I like to, just kind of like, live my life. Like, on my terms, not in any kind of wild out there way. But I just really like being able to kind of direct my days the way I want to. So partly, yeah, I was feeling a bit trapped in this kind of nine to five. But ultimately, yeah, the problems my drinking problem was mental and emotional. You know, it wasn’t manifesting is really just difficult problems kind of in my daily life. So yeah, when people were saying to me, but you don’t have a problem. I was like, well, let’s just define problem. Maybe a drinking problem could look different for everyone, you know?

Casey McGuire Davidson  47:05

Yeah. And I also like, love positioning it just as a health kick. I mean, everybody talks about, you know, they’re training for 5k, or they just got a new peloton, or they’re doing this, you know, juice fast. And I’m like, why don’t you know, I just kind of was like, I’m getting rid of alcohol for 100 days, as a health kick. Right. You know, a lot of people go, Oh, my God, I could never do that. But which is interesting.

Yeah, that’s right. Why not?

Casey McGuire Davidson  47:33

Yeah. Like you can. You can do intermittent fasting.

Like for years, I’m like, Oh, my God. Fasting for like, two days.

47:42

Oh, my God. I was like, so you know, we aren’t going to go into that. But like, you could do that. And you couldn’t give up alcohol like, so, I mean, it says so much right about how attached we are to the subjects. Yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson  47:54

Yeah, I totally agree. And so, you take people through, you said, your problems with alcohol, were emotional and mental. And what I think is great is the way you take people through in the book, each one of those sorts of limiting beliefs, fears, hat, but not just like, you talk about FOMO fear of missing alcohol, fear of missing out the idea that life will be dull, and monotonous, and you’ll lose your friends. And a lot of us are like, Hey, that’s not true. Right? Like, oh, my gosh, I have all my same friends. You know, some of them dropped off, but other ones got closer. But you take people through, like, literally how to do it, like how to socialize sober, and how to think about it. And you know, you have a sober socializing checklist in the book, and I think that’s just brilliant, like changing dinners, to daytime brunches, and that kind of stuff. Because I find it’s like, the practical implementation, the blocking and tackling. That’s what’s hard.

49:04

Right. In the beginning, yeah. Because it’s so alien to us. You know, I had been using alcohol as a social lubricant from like age 15 I didn’t really know how to be in social situations without alcohol, but only because I hadn’t done it. Yeah. And so yes, nowadays I socialize a lot differently to how I did in my drinking days, and I think that’s very natural like bars nightclubs late nights, in general are not designed for non-drinkers necessarily like our bodies are designed to stay up all night kind of like dancing every weekend necessarily, although some people might still absolutely love that. And I’ve had fantastic experiences, going to clubs sober or going to rave sober, like at a sober holiday in Ibiza went to all the nightclubs and it was just so much fun, you know, to see it through a different it was almost like being on a different kind of drugs like sobriety was its own alter State in those situations. But yeah, I mean, your social life will change, your friendship group will probably move around to the thought. And I think that’s very natural. And I think about it almost like any life change. When you become a parent, your social life changes and your friendship group shifts, when you start a new job. If you move to a different city, yeah, like any of these kind of major life changes will bring about these same shifts to you, the way that you socialize and who you socialize with. But we don’t view those kinds of changes in the same kind of fear that we do necessarily around removing alcohol.

Casey McGuire Davidson  50:35

Yeah. When also you’re allowed to grow and transform and change and have new experiences. And that’s positive. You know, if you look at your life now, the way you’re drinking, I know the way I’m drinking, I looked out 10 years from them, and was like, I don’t want to be living this way, a decade from now feeling stressed and hungover and going to work. And then at 6pm, desperately wanting my bottle of wine, and then not remembering the end of shows. I was like, Holy shit, this is not how I want to be living, right. 10 years from now. So, do I want to make a shift now? to something better?

51:14

And something different? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson  51:18

So, you in the book, also talk about core desired feelings. And I wanted to talk about that, because I, back in the day, read Danielle Laporte, it’s the desire factor. And I love that concept. So, can you tell me about poor desired feelings? And how you kind of dig into it in this book?

51:40

I suppose the core desired feelings is how what to how do I actually want to feel? And then really getting curious about like, what are the best ways what like, what can I actually do in my life? What decisions are actually leading you towards that feeling? Or away from that feeling? You know, and that’s what diet Danielle Laporte talks about was her desire mapping kind of concept is sort of like, you identify like, this is how I would like to be feeling or this is a feeling I would like to be experiencing more of, and then you kind of work backwards to like, okay, these choices, decisions, beliefs, even actions in alignment with me experiencing more of this. Yeah, of course, as we’ve discussed, like, for many of us, we associate a feeling of joy, or liberty or hilarity or relaxation with alcohol. So, I think when thinking I want to feel more relaxation, it is and I think, you know, you gave us some great examples of like, what are the things that you do to relax? For me, it’s things like, I just need to go to bed earlier.

Yeah. And honestly, there is nothing more relaxing for me than creating a day when I have nothing in my schedule, whether it’s a phone, even if it’s a phone call with a friend, like nothing if there’s just literally a day in my calendar, where there’s literally nothing at all, I can literally feel everything, or every cell in my body just kind of goes. Yeah. Partly because I’ve also learned something I always suspected. And something I absolutely used alcohol to kind of like, cover up or change about myself. I’m a huge introvert. I x takes a lot of energy for me to be with people, whether it’s on a podcast interview, whether it’s in a dinner, whether it’s in a group, whether it’s with a phone call with my mom, whatever it is, it just takes a lot of energy for me to kind of like, be with people. I have a natural need for a lot of alone time. A lot of solitude a lot of quiet.

Yeah. And so, knowing that about myself, if I’m ever feeling too overhyped, I know I’ve got too many I’ve got too much in my calendar. And so, my thing is, I just need to remove things, to remove things and feel okay about that. You know, yeah, we before we got on the on the recording, you were talking about, you know, how common sort of people pleasing tendencies are amongst particularly high achieving women, right. And I can absolutely relate to that myself. I used to feel so much guilt about canceling people off my calendar, even though I deeply knew that I needed that extra space, that extra breathing room to kind of like regroup and recoup. But now I know how important that is, actually. And so, I no longer feel the same guilt about Yeah, just having things happen on my terms, which is not the same as kind of, like, shunning all my responsibilities and like never showing up. I know, that’s not who I am. That’s not going to happen. I have to trust myself.

Yeah, my body is saying no, I need a day with nothing in the calendar. Yeah. And just know that that will ultimately prevent me from then reaching being more likely to reach that alcohol for being more vulnerable to those Yeah, those cravings or that little voice in my head, which is, you know, virtually not there anymore, which will be like, have a glass of wine.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  54:54

Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s so important to you know, you think I want to drink it And then when you think why, you know, what emotion are you trying to cultivate? That’s what you want. And I, you know, I was smiling when you said, just take everything off your calendar and go to sleep early. So, my thing is, you know, I talk to clients all day and listen all day and love it and do podcasts. And then I have kids and dinner. And I had to tell my husband because he’d always be like, What are you not? What are you doing? But I was like, Okay, after dinner. It’s not that I don’t love you guys. I need two hours to zone out and not talk to anyone. And he laughs to me, because apparently, I’m a 16 year old girl, like, I’ve watched every 16 year old high school drop like Veronica Mars, and, you know, One Tree Hill. I mean, there’s no redeeming value to any of this. I just watched what was it? It was Riverdale. It doesn’t matter, like hours of it. But I’m just like, I just need this. I need to like to be absorbed in someone else’s life. And you know, and then I do bedtime and all the things, but I was like I’m done talking and listening. I just want to absorb but once you realize that it helps so much. And it’s not, I’m sounding really, really boring. I’m also going on a yoga retreat next week to Mexico. So, it’s not that boring in my life. But still?

56:24

Well, I don’t know, I don’t think there’s anything boring about feeling relaxed, and like you actually have the capacity to be there for the people that you need that need you. It’s like, yeah, since when did we decide it was boring, to need time for ourselves or just to like, do nothing or like, just, I don’t know. And there’s so much pressure on us to perform so many different roles and to show up in certain ways, right, in order to be accepted in order to feel like we loved in order to feel like we’re doing our dutiful thing. And the labeling me time. Real me time. A lot of people reach for a glass of wine, because that’s me time, right. But ultimately, again, we know the cost of that labeling me time on Doing nothing time or kicking back and watching a cheesy movie time as boring or pathetic, or whatever it might be is just more stigma around actually us giving ourselves the self-care and space that we need to recharge.

Casey McGuire Davidson  57:17

I loved reading, reading this quote, and I just saved it because it was so perfect. It was like, Can we stop calling things we enjoy guilty pleasures? Why can’t they just be pleasure? You know, like, why do we agree to guilty? And I hate the word selfish? Like, it’s like, oh, it seems so selfish to do this. I was like, why don’t you flip that to? I’m just taking care of myself, you know, just the way that, you know, you’re the only person who can take care of yourself and know what you need mentally and emotionally. And it’s okay to do that.

57:52

Exactly. Why is it selfish to have a boundary basically, around your time because we’re so much more valuable to everybody else, when we have no boundaries? And they can just get what they need from us whenever they need it. Yeah, but which, you know, great, yes, I want to be there for people, I want to, I want to show up for people, I want to show up for my clients, for my family, for my husband for my, you know, my work even. But I also in order to do that I need to be fully recharged. Right. And so, it’s not selfish. To give that to myself, and I think I, I can’t remember it’s in the chapter you were mentioning, but I do go through I was like, I list all the things that we could potentially want to feel. When we’re reaching for alcohol, I want to feel connection, I want to feel relaxed, I want to feel joyful, I want to feel these different things. And I took on I give kind of suggestions, but other ways that we might experience all of these different feeling states or access these things. We’re looking for an alcohol. I can’t remember what all the suggestions are. But and obviously, there’ll be different for everyone as well.

Casey McGuire Davidson  58:55

Yeah. And I love how practical it is. Because a lot of the women I know who drink a lot, and I’m including myself in this, like, we get shit done. We’re multitaskers we take care of everyone else. We’re smart. It’s just, you know, and then we beat ourselves up. Like why is drinking the one thing that I can’t fix or control or manage more manage? And part of it is, just giving practical alternatives that we’ve never thought of? Because it’s not what pushed on us.

59:27

Right, exactly. But also, why is it so hard to give up? Because maybe that is the only time that’s designated me time? Yeah. So, what’s that turning? What tells me I need me I need me time as well as doing all these other kind of Superwoman things. I need me time. That’s valid. Yeah. And if I’m not going to give myself permission to just take that, then I’m going to disable my brain, my mind with this substance that forces me to take a break. But yeah, see, again, by the way, and by the way, it’s super addictive and will be shoved in your face or something You need every given opportunity.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:03

And if you don’t want to don’t want to drink tonight, you’ll be pressured to do it. So those are the other reasons. But I 100% agree with you.

Exactly. So, I could talk to you all day, I love this conversation. But if someone’s interested in picking up sober, curious, or the sober, curious, reset, or look it up your group, what should they know? Like, what’s your, what’s your favorite thing about the books or the approach that you want people to know coming in?

1:00:33

The thing, the feedback I was getting constantly when it first came out. And I’m presuming people still feel this way was that this is super nonjudgmental, there can be a lot of kind of, right, wrong. I don’t know, it can feel like it’s a very judgy space, like everyone has an opinion about it. And this is where you should be doing it. And this thing is, you know, and this is really, like I said at the beginning, I think this is about just meeting you wherever you’re at, and that being perfect, who you are. Let’s look at this. It’s super nonjudgmental. Throughout the book multiple times, I’ll say, you know, if this is getting tricky, check out on a meeting. Nothing wrong with that it’s gonna cost you nothing, maybe it will work for you. If it doesn’t, cool, here’s other, you know, just really nonjudgmental, I’m not into shaming anybody for any of the choices that they might have made at any point, basically. And I just, I’m really, it’s really, it’s less about telling you, this is the way to go and more about reminding you, you know, you know what’s right for you, you know, what’s good for you. Trust that. Do that, you know?

Yeah. And I think a lot of people are curious, because they do see the negative parts of alcohol, but nobody starts saying, I’m never gonna drink again. Or it for me, it was literally my worst case scenario, right? Thought of never drinking again. And yet, like, I love that you said, you have to start where you are. Because where I started was just, I didn’t want to give up alcohol. But I wanted to stop feeling like shit. And I knew I was feeling like shit, because I was drinking. And so that was enough to get started. And then figuring out what else I could do with my time and what felt better and how my body changed. And all that was just like you said, an experiment that reinforced that this was actually better for me. And then you go through all this shit about how do I talk to people about it? And you know, the great thing is, this is a conversation now, you know, dry January is a conversation, being sober, curious as a conversation.

And you’re not the first person to do these things. So, you can learn from other people.

1:02:51

Absolutely. Exactly. Having podcasts like yours, having podcasts like mine, like none of these things existed when I was first getting sober curious.

Yeah.

And so yeah, I’m just really happy to have created these books and the podcast and the Facebook group. Like I said, it’s really an amazingly supportive space. It’s just if you search for sober, curious book, the header there has images of both the books. It’s about 5000 people there now. And it’s just yeah, there’s so many resources now that didn’t exist. Even five years ago, I joined that group because I’d love energy in there. You know, it’s awesome.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:03:29

Awesome. So, the best place for people to find you Is it your website, or the podcast or the group?

1:03:35

The podcast is probably the most kind of accessible place to get information. There’s a new series just happening currently, it’s just the sober curious podcast. So yeah, and the books naturally, which you forget anywhere you buy your books.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:03:47

Yeah, well, I will link to all of this in the show notes of this episode. But thank you so much for coming on and for happiness conversation.

1:03:55

Thank you for having me.