And before we get started, let’s start with the basics…

What is Al-Anon? 

Al-Anon is a support group for people who are affected by someone else’s drinking. Whether it’s a spouse, parent, child, or friend who has a drinking problem, Al-Anon is there to help you navigate the emotional ups and downs of living with or caring about someone with AUD (alcohol use disorder).

Al-Anon’s Purpose:

Al-Anon’s main goal is to provide a safe, non-judgmental space where people can share their experiences, get emotional support, and learn effective ways to cope with the challenges of living with someone who has a drinking problem. It’s not about trying to fix the person suffering from alcohol use disorder, but rather about finding peace and stability for yourself.

How Al-Anon Can Help Someone Living With A Partner Who Drinks Problematically:

1. Shared Experiences: By connecting with others who are in similar situations, you realize you’re not alone. Hearing how others handle their situations can give you new insights and ideas.
2. Anonymity: Everything shared in Al-Anon is confidential, so you can talk openly about your feelings without fear of judgment or gossip.
3. Tools for Coping: Al-Anon introduces concepts like detachment with love, setting healthy boundaries, and focusing on your own well-being instead of trying to control the drinker’s behavior.
4. Emotional Support: The group provides a sense of community and understanding that can be comforting when dealing with the stress and confusion that often comes with loving someone who drinks problematically.

Al-Anon reminds you that you are not responsible for your loved one’s drinking. 

“We didn’t cause it, we can’t control it, and we can’t cure it.”  – Al-Anon Courage To Change and Al-Anon Family Groups’ Classic Edition

No program and approach is right for everyone, so I also wanted to share some of the challenges or criticisms that have been expressed about the Al-Anon approach.

1. The Religious or Spiritual Focus in Al-Anon

• Challenge: Al-Anon, like Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), is based on a 12-step program that includes references to a “Higher Power.” Some people find the spiritual or religious undertones off-putting, especially if they are not religious or have different spiritual beliefs.

• Criticism: The focus on surrendering to a Higher Power can be uncomfortable for those who prefer a more secular approach to dealing with their issues​ 

2. Use of the term “Alcoholic” in Al-Anon

• Challenge: Al-Anon traditionally uses the term “alcoholic” in its literature and meetings. This term is consistent with the language used by Alcoholics Anonymous (AA), from which Al-Anon evolved. The term “alcoholic” is deeply ingrained in the 12-step tradition and is commonly used by members to describe individuals who struggle with alcohol dependence or misuse.

• Criticism: in more recent times, there has been a growing recognition of the term “alcohol use disorder” (AUD), which is the clinical term used in the medical and psychological communities. AUD is considered a more neutral, medical term that encompasses a range of alcohol-related issues, from mild to severe.

3. Focus on Self-Responsibility in Al-Anon

• Challenge: Al-Anon encourages members to focus on their own behavior and reactions rather than trying to change the person struggling with alcohol use disorder. This approach can be frustrating for those who are looking for more direct advice on how to help the “alcoholic” in their life.

• Criticism: Some people feel that this emphasis on self-responsibility may overlook the very real impact that the person who is struggling with alcohol’s behavior has on them and might seem to suggest that they are partially responsible for their loved one’s drinking.

3. Lack of Professional Guidance in Al-Anon

• Challenge: Al-Anon meetings are peer-led, which means that there are no professional counselors or therapists guiding the discussions. While this can create a supportive and equal environment, some members might feel that they need more structured, professional help.

• Criticism: The lack of professional input can lead to concerns about the quality of advice being shared and whether it’s truly effective or safe for every situation​.

4. Group Dynamics in Al-Anon

• Challenge: As with any group, the dynamics in Al-Anon meetings can vary widely. Some people might feel that certain groups are not a good fit for them due to personalities, group culture, or differences in how the program is interpreted.
• Criticism: If a group is dominated by certain members or if the atmosphere doesn’t feel welcoming, it can deter people from attending regularly, which limits the program’s effectiveness for them.

5. Perception of Passivity in Al-Anon

• Challenge: Al-Anon’s approach, which focuses on detachment and letting go of trying to control the alcoholic’s behavior, might be perceived as too passive by some.
• Criticism: Critics argue that this approach might not be proactive enough, especially in situations where there is a need for intervention or more assertive actions to protect oneself or other family members​.

Despite these criticisms, Al-Anon to be a lifeline in dealing with the complexities of loving someone with a drinking problem. 

However, like any support system, it’s not one-size-fits-all, and some may need to explore other resources or combine Al-Anon with additional forms of support.

Want to read the full transcript of this podcast episode? Scroll down on this page.

READ THE TRANSCRIPT OF THIS PODCAST INTERVIEW

How Al-Anon Can Help If You’re Living With A Partner Who Drinks Problematically with Erinn O’Neill

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking, alcohol, sober, Al-Anon, Living, Partner, drinks, problematically, motional state, boundaries, codependency, focus on you, healthy boundaries, well-being, Spiritual program, AA, 12 steps, having a lot of grace for the people who are suffering in your life and for yourself, early sobriety, triggers, sobriety, trauma, narcissist, therapist, recovery, She Recovers, support, community, marriage counseling

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Erinn O’Neill

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a buzz, how to sit with your emotions when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there.

Today, we are talking about 

Al-Anon and how it can help you when you live with a partner who drinks problematically.

And with your overall emotional state where it’s related to boundaries and codependency and any of that stuff.

My guest today is Erin O’Neill. She is a Health and Wellness Coach who quit drinking 5 years ago and is also the host of the 2 Sober Girls podcast.

Erinn, welcome. I’m really glad you’re here. This is a topic that comes up a lot with women I work with.

Erinn O’Neill 1:59 

Yeah, Casey, thank you for having me. I’m so thrilled to jump on with you. And this comes up for me all the time.

And you know, just to throw it out there, I started going to Al-Anon  myself. So, when you asked me, I was like, Oh, this is so perfect, because it’s just the world we live in. Like we are all affected, touched by someone who is battling addiction, heavy drinking, whatever you want to call it, and how we manage that and navigate makes all the difference. And that’s where these amazing programs like in Al-Anon support for people who have loved ones who are problematic drinkers. And there’s a lot of people like myself who are both sober and AA and an Al-Anon. There are people in Al-Anon who do not have an addiction problem, but just have loved ones who do so it just really does cover a wide range of the population.

Casey McGuire Davidson  2:46 

I want to talk about all of that because I know for a lot of women, they are talking about what they can do to help their spouse, or to just live with their spouse, or whether they should stay with their spouse, and it might not be your spouse, it might be your children, it might be your mother, it might be someone else, but they also may not subscribe to the 12 step aa approach or dogma or language or something else. And so, they’re hesitant to explore Al-Anon, because those two programs are, you know, seem very interrelated.

Can you tell me about like, just talk about what you think of that. Have you heard that before? And how do you respond?

Erinn O’Neill  3:38 

Amazing question, and I hear that all the time, so I would respond first to anyone who’s suffering, because they do have a loved one who is in the throes of addiction and not sure where to go – give it a shot. What do you have to lose? We all need community. We need people who are going through what we are going through, so we can walk together.

And what I love about Al-Anon is that the focus is on you. It’s not about the addict. So, it’s how are you showing up? How are you dealing How are you making sure that you can detach with love? That’s a big thing in Al-Anon. Have healthy boundaries, so you’re still in the relationship with boundaries that are protecting your yourself, your well-being, your health, your wellness, your mental health, but the same time still loving the person who is in the throes of addiction. And again, the focus is on you. And so, in Al-Anon, you can work the steps. A lot of people get a sponsor to work the steps, just like you would in AA, but you don’t have to. Like, I would recommend going to a couple of meetings, showing up, connecting with a fellow Al-Anon member, exchanging numbers and seeing if this is the right fit for you. Because really it’s a community, a supportive community of people who get it to have a spouse, a loved one, a child, and I’m glad that you were sharing that it could be anybody.

Yeah, that is your best friend. Your best friend, anybody, anybody, anybody. And how do you deal? How do you show up and again? And it’s interesting, because my AA sponsor just started Al-Anon, and she was like, you know, Erinn, I love this program, because it really just puts the focus back on me and my program and how I am showing up and how my behavior was shifting and being shaped by their addiction. We don’t want that. So, when we recognize that’s happening. And we were laughing before we started recording how.

You know, we have these isms of perfectionism, and I don’t. I hate chaos, so I’ll fix everyone’s problems. Does everyone be calm? Whatever it is, I’m jumping and twisting and distorting myself, because I am so uncomfortable with the addiction, and I’m so uncomfortable with chaos, and I’m so uncomfortable with whatever x is, so I’m now just a distorted version of myself, and I need to go back in and put my shoulders back, have boundaries, detached with love, and be me and be full of love. And Al-Anon, like AI is a spiritual program. It does talk a lot about your higher power and sourcing your power from your higher power.

Casey McGuire Davidson  6:10 

But does it talk a lot about God? Because I have to admit, I’m not religious at all, and I know everybody says, like, God can be your dog or the universe or whatever, but like, I’m just going to be totally honest, because I want this conversation to, like, dispel, not only for me, but for other people, any like, I just want people to find help. And what I love about this year, I know you love a 12 step program. I have so many friends who adore 12 step programs. I went for four months, like, three or four times a week, and big book studies and women’s meeting, and it was not for me. And a huge portion of that was the spiritual program, slash God. Like my sponsor told me to, like, get on my knees every day and pray to not drink. And I’m like, I am very like that to me, like, sends up, like, anger and anxiety and, well no, and fuck no. And, you know, that’s, that’s my history.

Erinn O’Neill  7:13 

I get it. I get Casey. I freaking get it.

Casey McGuire Davidson  7:17 

And I’m just trying to be honest. Like, I know we have to be because, if only if we’re honest, we can’t help anybody if we’re not honest.

Erinn O’Neill  7:19 

And I love and it’s not for everyone. And as you were speaking, that I’m like, realizing your path was not that, because you had to create all of this, and like all the people you get to help. So, you know, higher power, God universe, work some mysterious ways, because that’s not for you. You were meant to go here because, and recall, I love that there are other options.

Casey McGuire Davidson  7:40 

I really do it. But one thing for I don’t know of a lot of other options, which is why I wanted to have you on. I’m also going to look for someone else. People ask me all the time about my husband drinks, like, really problematically, like he has a drinking issue, or someone else. I can’t call my mother after 2pm because she’s drunk and she won’t remember. And they asked me for recommendations, and I do recommend Al-Anon or Codependency. Codependent No more book by Melanie Beatty, but I don’t know anything else totally.

Erinn O’Neill  8:21 

And I think, too, I think 12 step programs have gotten, like a lot of and they’ve earned it to some bad rap. So, like, there’s some beautiful things.

Casey McGuire Davidson  8:34 

And I do love my 12 step program, and I and like, it saved my I want you to talk about that too, I really, but I also needed all of this, like our community, like our super cool group of podcasters and everything that we’re doing, and two sober girls and connecting with Michaela, I needed both.

Erinn O’Neill  8:37 

I couldn’t just be in AA. I needed to fill in the gaps, like the health and lifestyle, but AA saved my life, and I do love the spiritual component of it. And I grew up in a religious household, but I really found my true faith and the essence and the beauty and connection in the rooms.

So back to your initial question, which I love, Al-Anon is really just having a lot of grace for the people who are suffering in your life and for yourself.

I think that’s the biggest, one of the biggest problems of humanity. We just are so hard on ourselves, Casey, like someone’s suffering, and we think it’s our fault someone is, and if there’s addiction, I’m not good enough. Oh, someone gets upset because they’re hungover or they are. They don’t have solutions because they their solution is a substance, and we put it all on ourselves to do a tap dance on our head with one hand behind our back. And then, when it doesn’t work, babe, it’s hell. So, yeah, I have grace for myself. I can have grace for you, and that’s really what I got from Al-Anon. It’s just grace to begin again.

You’re not alone. It is not your responsibility to make anybody happy. And I know Casey, I can’t heal anyone. I can’t. I tried. I tried and failed. We can’t. And if I try, at the very least, I’m going to end up killing myself in the process, and that’s what happens, and so you can do to drinking.

Casey McGuire Davidson  10:06 

But I also went through a really difficult time, and I actually went back to therapy. I hadn’t been in therapy since my first year of sobriety. And I mean, I always kept in touch with my therapist, maybe one off, but I had to go back to therapy and get back on anti-anxiety, anti-depression meds because I was like crying and angry. And I find, you know, about a relationship issue that was not related to drinking. And I was going to, you know, She Recovers meetings and, like crying to my friends every time I was sharing, and I just was like, the only thing I can control is myself. So, amen, I need to get help, because it’s impacting me so much my mental health.

Erinn O’Neill  11:00 

Yes, well, and you just said two huge things there the community that you went and shared it. And so that’s very much the premise of Al-Anon, and that I’m only responsible for me and how I’m showing up. So, when you go and you get all that stuff out and say, I’m in pain and I’m suffering, but how we react to the addict in our life is everything.

So, in that split second, when you have a moment and they’re in the throes and they’re intoxicated, you can walk away. You can call a fellow Al and a member. You can go for a walk. You can have a handful of solutions ready. You can pray. You can whatever it is, but that’s what Al-Anon teaches you, that you are responsible for how you show up. You are not responsible to cure or save the addict you cannot, and then having the grace for yourself and for the person that you love in a community that people get it so people say, yeah, Casey, that happens to me all the time.

And, you know, after 5 o’clock, I can’t be around so and so, or whatever it is, just having that making you realize you’re not crazy? It’s not you. The whole not alone. Yeah, you’re then there’s hope, yeah, and your language in which you speak to them when they’re not in an intoxicated state, God willing, we’ll get through. God willing will be like, Hey, I love you. I don’t want to watch you suffer. I don’t want to watch you kill yourself, but I’m taking my hands off. I’m walking, you know, I hear, you know, and I’m here when you’re ready for help. I can lead you to people who can help you, but I can’t save you, but I’m here for you to support you. And I think that’s the huge premise of Al-Anon.

And again, you can just sort of do an Al-Anon light, like you could zoom meetings at first, you could just hop into some meetings throughout the week and test the waters and just kind of have that as an additional support system to begin with. And that’s kind of like where I am right now with Al-Anon because I am a heavy AA, so I I’m kind of Al-Anon light.

Casey McGuire Davidson  13:01 

Yeah, and it does ask you and you don’t have to share, but what totally don’t have to share. But what made you go to Al-Anon ?

Erinn O’Neill  13:10 

I think I had my previous partner. He was incredible. He is incredible fellow AI er, and he works a strong Al-Anon  program, and then just getting to know me, he and my family of origin and my life that’s now helping addicts, right? This is what I do. And he’s like, You are surrounded with people and addiction. And you don’t you’re not getting the proper support, yeah? Because he was seeing me twist and contort and, bottom line, suffer, you know. And a lot of it is from, you know, that when we’ve been twisting ourselves for so long, since childhood, it’s hard to see it, because you just think it’s you. Yeah, and that’s how you are. No, that’s like, I had to untwist myself and say, Wait, that’s me.

Casey McGuire Davidson  14:02 

And that doesn’t feel good, and I don’t want to be goes through like, I twist, it would almost be harder. And I’m speaking, I am the only person in my family who had a drinking problem. Like, let’s be clear. I, you know, they say it goes in families. Apparently, not.

Erinn O’Neill  14:17 

It’s literational. So, you know, yeah, but I don’t think it is in a lineage somewhere, anxiety.

Casey McGuire Davidson  14:24 

It worked for me. I was in a huge drinking culture. It, you know, it’s progressive, but I would think it would be really difficult, almost more difficult being raised in a family of origin when you’re a child with very, very little external experience and very little power, almost more so than if you weren’t raised in that culture and you were in a relationship with someone like, it’s almost like I would think it would be harder, because it would be so ingrained in your sense of normalcy. Do you? Do you think that?

Erinn O’Neill  15:00 

You just said, Well, yes, and I think it’s really painful to extract it, something that’s been lodged for so long because it’s so deep, yeah?

Casey McGuire Davidson  15:18 

And listen, we’re like, recovery is it’s glorious and it’s fucking painful, like, it’s painful, yeah?

Erinn O’Neill  15:19 

Oh my god, Casey. And then once you realize that someone’s pushing on something, and you’re like, shit that Bruce has been there since I was a little kid. Like, stop pushing on it. You’re pushing on it because God wants to remove it, and that’s the work of the lifetime. Like, that’s our work, but I but that takes community and grace and the right way to do things, and when you’re removing things, the people that you’ve twisted yourself for so long, guess what? They don’t love it when you are in twisting yourself because you’re no longer showing up the same way, and basically you’re no longer taking the poison for them, so they’re okay. And that was something like for me, it’s hard, it’s a tricky dance that’s where you need a lot of grace and a lot of patience and a lot of time to just step back and have boundaries, because it causes a lot of pain for everyone.

Yeah, and that’s when this, when you really do need the support to be like, okay, but this is but keep going and show and still. But how do we show up with grace and love when we are healing ourselves from something and untwisting ourselves and not that person anymore?

Casey McGuire Davidson  16:31 

So, question for you, and I have so many questions for you, so thank you for doing this. What if you’re legitimately angry? What if you are being treated in a way that is uncool? What if you aren’t you allowed to be angry? What if you don’t raise it up? What if you feel like, go fuck yourself you should like, Do you know what I mean? What if? What if it’s making the environment for your children. Tear it out of there.

Erinn O’Neill  17:04 

Really, okay, I love I’m so happy you’re bringing this up.

Casey McGuire Davidson  17:07 

Yes, I’m just on. I get angry. I mean, I hate tension. I’m a people pleaser. I will contort myself. I will not express anger a lot of times when I should. But what if you’re just like, I don’t fucking deserve this. This is bullshit. I don’t like you. I may not love you. I want you to freaking get the hell out of here. And I know compassion for you right now, because you are such a dick or a bitch, yeah, not Yeah, not even trying.

Erinn O’Neill  17:45 

So, like, yeah, because I know I love nonsense all about compassion and grace and love, and I don’t feel that way. No, I know. And so it is that, but it is also First, your protection, your mental health, the protection of your children first. So, anyone listening, you’re in a dangerous situation. If you are afraid or fearful. You know, please contact like the necessary supports, because that’s that we are not. You don’t stay and get abused.

Casey McGuire Davidson  18:10 

No, no emotional abuse. No, yes. Is abuse, no abuse.

Erinn O’Neill  18:12 

That and people who work a really strong Al-Anon program, like we would joke like they’re like ninjas, like, you don’t fuck with them, like Casey. They’re like, they have boundaries. And you’re like, Okay, right? I’m going to be over here and watch what you do, because I like the way you’re operating. Like, they have self-respect, strong boundaries, they’re strong, they’re loving. We can be very loving and firm, but they have boundaries. And don’t you mess with them, and don’t cross it.

And if you’re in a situation where you are with someone who is not seeking help, who is abusing you, mentally, physically, who is or just being around that person is, it’s just an awful thing for you to be around, and it’s, it’s, it’s causing you harm and pain. Then you take a break, and you take a pause, and you seek people’s support and help and say, Hey, for right now, I need to, I need to get a safe space for right now, I’m going to have a big boundary. I don’t want to be in the same home for right now I’m doing this, and you get expert advice and guidance, and you have supported your community and people who’ve gone through it, but you don’t stay there. And I think if people are continually abusive and in active addiction, you’re not staying. I’m not staying. I’m loving I’m still loving you, but I cannot go down with you like I need to save myself.

Casey McGuire Davidson  19:40 

And sometimes you need to talk that through and get support, not only with people who can tell you, Hey, I went through this too, and I got to the other side, and our relationship is better, absolutely, people who are like, you know. Know, if you decide to get out, it’s going to be okay. And here’s my experience doing that, because I found that with lots of stuff in my life, the people in my life are not the people I need to talk to about it like and totally unrelated, even leaving my corporate job to become a coach, which was a huge change in income and ego and status and our lifestyle when you’re starting out. I had to, I had to talk to my therapist about it, because, like my husband, had a dog in that fight, he it would impact his life. And of course, none of us like change.

My mother had an opinion on, you know, what is life coaching? Will anyone pay for that? Like, what are you doing? You know, so the people closest to your life who have something so I’m just thinking, if you are having a serious problem with, let’s just say, a spouse, your mother might not be the best person to talk to. Your best friend like they’ve got your best friend might be like that. Get out. Your mother might be like, What about the children? Stay right, right.

Erinn O’Neill  21:25 

Made a commitment like just if I think other people who get it, they may not accept your answer, but they can give you perspective. And perspective from, yeah, from experience, and actually not biased, because all those people, because they love you and they have some skin in the game, they’re going to be biased versus I would go to someone who’s in the program with you, or an Al-Anon , or an air or your, you know, Life or Sobriety Coach, a Trauma Specialist. I would ask them, I will go there for your guidance, and you can have your wonderful family members supporting you, but you have to go to the experts and people who really deal with this on a day to day basis and say, Hey, I’m seeing this pattern. This is what has worked really well for, you know, so and so and a lot of times, and you were alluding to this, when people leave a relationship and say, I love you. I’m taking space. I need a break. I can’t be in this pit with you and watch you go down, because I’m going down with you. Um, need to protect myself and love myself.

A lot of times, when you take yourself out, that force is that person to hit at a rock bottom where they do the work, and they say, I don’t want to lose that person. And if she’s leaving me, or if he’s leaving me, maybe my problem is really out of control, because I hear it. So, it’s interesting.

Casey McGuire Davidson  22:34 

Yeah, we call it. We call it a double winner, being an AA. Oh yeah. Like, sarcasm is even did identity. I love that.

Erinn O’Neill  22:42 

Actually, I think it like a freaking laugh, freaking bit of humor, babe. I mean, I’m like, I’m a total double winner here.

Casey McGuire Davidson  22:49 

It’s like, hashtag winning. #winning. Like, how many other 12 steps going to be in I’m like, collecting them.

Erinn O’Neill  22:50 

It’s so in, in the rooms of AA, you will hear someone share about I’m here because my marriage is on the line. I’m here because I’m looking at a divorce. I’m here because I’m about to lose X. It forces the addict to a rock bottom to make that change. When you stay and there’s a very high codependency and the sober person is helping the person and the active addiction stay and maintain. Yeah, they’re not going to do anything. You’re making it possible for them to actually stay somewhat afloat. So, it’s better to make like tough love choice with the proper guidance, yeah, and then you’ll hear the Al-Anon just have really firm boundaries. Like, these are my boundaries. If you cross them, I’m out. And that’s a beautiful dance for life too. Like, we need that as humans, because our boundaries are always getting pushed and crossed, because there’s a lot of people that are not well and they don’t realize it.

Casey McGuire Davidson  24:00 

Question for you. I’m just asking every question from people that I’ve heard, yeah, and like, what about if people feel hypocritical, like, where they’re like, 6 months ago, I was doing the same thing you were doing now. I am now looking at you.

So, I have a client. Of course, I’m going to keep it totally anonymous. She started working with me a year ago. Her husband also got a Sober Coach. They decided together they needed to do this. She stopped the day we started working together. He got 4 days, f5 days, 12 days, and like continued, really problematically, drinking like and of course, he had a lot of triggers. She had a lot of triggers too. You know, lots of people have very, very difficult family lives, but at the same time, people are like, I was there. There, 6 months ago, 8 months ago, 4 months ago. I can’t tolerate this, and yet, who am I to do? X, Y, Z, you know what I mean?

Erinn O’Neill  25:11 

Like, I know exactly, but that’s when that grace comes in, where it’s I was that person, and I’m in the work, and I’m going to be in the work for the rest of my life, and I don’t want to go back there, so I have grace for you, but doesn’t mean I’m going to take it on and CO sign on your bullshit, because I was in the bullshit with you, and I’m changing my life, and I want you to do the same, but I can only work on me, and that’s also where it comes to the fingers are pointing at me. I’m looking at myself how I want to show up, and if you’re doing that, I can’t be around that because that I’m not that person anymore. And we know this Casey in recovery, we’re allowed to change, like, 500 million times, like we’re supposed to expand and get better and become more and more of who we really are. So of course, I’m not that person 6 months ago. I hope not. Oh, I’m always going this way and always improving, but grace for the people who are still struggling, but doesn’t mean that I’m going to be okay with it and want to be in that pit with you. I left the pit. I’m extending my hand for you to join me. I’ll show you what’s working for me. I’m not jumping back in, and you can.

Casey McGuire Davidson  26:13 

Absolutely. I mean, I’ve also seen clients inspire their spouse. It took a while, you know, even like it took four years, but their spouse then decided to stop drinking three years later, they’re sober, happy, healthy, right?

So, the answer is, don’t go back to drinking because your spouse is not with you. You’re allowed to be scared. You’re allowed to be unsure about where the relationship is going, but don’t self-sabotage yourself and your life in order to because you’re triggered by them or I mean, we drink at people all the time.

Erinn O’Neill  26:58 

Of course, we drink at life. And now, when you are on with some solutions, live in the solution. Focus on you and your daily walk. Extend to grace, have a supportive community. Get honest with how you’re feeling, like anger, overwhelm sadness, everything, get it out. But drinking isn’t a solution. Drinking is slow suicide and it’s not going to do you or your spouse any good. And that’s the beautiful thing.

Casey, we don’t know when it’s going to happen, but it’s going to happen. Like, sobriety is that glorious and that attractive? Like, if you just keep going and you stay on your path, you’re going to inspire so many people, and I’ve seen it so many times, too, where it’s like, oh my God, my spouse is just drinking less and less, or not at all, or people are watching, and you’re having this, like, incredibly powerful effect. So, it’s to, just again. I call it like slow suicide, to pick up again.

Casey McGuire Davidson  28:04 

That’s insanity. We’re no longer insane. We’re not consuming a poison on a daily basis. Work up at the again. Work on. You go back into get you’re not going to heal by going back to what broke you. You just are not.

Erinn O’Neill  28:09 

So, you’re not going to love that person either. You cannot love that person if you are an active addiction as well, and if you have a family, your kids need, yes, they do.

Casey McGuire Davidson  28:14 

One sober parent, at the very least, if you can see how and again, it could be your mother, your sister, your brother, whoever, if you can see how damaging it is for one person to be in that state, especially around children who have very little power. Imagine what two of you would do to that. You know what I mean. They need you to trust Shella and they’re worthy of it.

Erinn O’Neill  28:52 

They just serve it. They ask kids to serve a sober parent that ends we cannot love our children the way we really are created to with a substance separating us. So, yeah, yeah, that’s a huge, a huge another reason, if, even if you’re just a little bit like turned off by the Al-Anon approach, try it for your kid. Try it.

Casey McGuire Davidson  29:19 

Yeah. I mean, I think that if you personally, and I assume it is the same with other any challenge, right? But I’m just thinking of my approach to stopping drinking, like, if you want to stop drinking and you haven’t been able to yet. All that means is you do not have enough support yet, and you just keep need to be adding layers of support and find the support that resonates with you.

But you know, for some people, sober groups are enough. For some people, podcasts and books are. For some people, community is enough. Other people need a 1-on-1 Coach. Other people need all of those plus a 12 step program. Other people need all of those 12 step steps and outpatient. Other people inpatient. Other people sober living like and just keep adding till you find that right level, your sweet spot.

Erinn O’Neill  30:24 

And it’s, you know, it’s kind of seasonal, like you might have a season where, like, Hey, I’m cool, just doing my 12 step program. Then it’s like, shoot, I need a one on one coach right now for like, the next six months, or I need to go on this retreat, or I’m going to get this book and study that’s like, it’s seasonal dependent upon what’s going on, and so just to be open to it.

But I think, like, you know, you and I would agree, like, just having that community, yes, foundational to sobriety and to helping anyone who’s in the throes of addiction like you, need community that’s going to understand and it’s going to, you know what I love, too, but sober community is that they do call you out on your bullshit too. They’re like, No, that’s actually not even going to help anyone, and that’s on you. And I’m like, It’s okay, that’s me. And like, that’s the beauty of it. Like, honest and open and vulnerable conversations that move you forward and get me out of where you’re stuck?

Casey McGuire Davidson  31:22 

Yeah, I feel like there are sort of two stages of problems you have to deal with, right when you stop drinking. So, the first is the cravings, the hangovers, the romanticizing alcohol. Your social life is centered around it, right? The aftermath, problems, anxiety, depression, whatever it is, physical impacts, those once you stop drinking, work, you have to work and do some work and move on. But those go away pretty quickly. Once you stop drinking, a lot of the shit goes away, yes, and then you are left with the underlying problems, which are the reasons that drinking worked for you in the first place. And it can be mental health issues. It can be your marriage. It can be a spouse who drinks problematically. Your spouse might be a narcissist. They might be emotionally abusive. They may. You may just have drifted apart, and you aren’t connecting with them. It can be special needs children’s. It could be really problematic relationships with your parents, or your boss is a nightmare, or you hate your job, or but like the idea is like, what do you not have to think about when you drank? What do you check out from you remove the alcohol?

Erinn O’Neill  32:52 

And step two is to start addressing those issues. Yes, oh, and just you unpacking. That was so powerful and beautiful.

And I was thinking, you know, so when I went to rehab, came back, started working AI. I was then married, and my husband, my ex-husband, who’s a gem, like every time I get to talk about him, he’s a, I love him dearly. We co-parent beautifully. He’s my family. We drink a lot together, like and a lot of our relationship was, you know, social drinking. I mean, yeah, lunch, dinner before dinner in the house, we were just that was our that was our dance, and that was really hard. And so, just unpacking that when I stopped drinking and looked at but what do we do together? And then who are we hanging out with? Because then I was around a lot of heavy drinking, it was really hard, and that was really painful, and that’s when having like my sponsor and having my community for other people who’ve gone through and said they told me, give it a year, work on it.

We did marriage counseling, and then you’ll know and it’s okay. You have to make some really, really gut wrenching decisions in sobriety, and even when they’re the right decisions, it really, really hurts. But I was like, I had to come to that realization, like, okay, a lot of our relationship was built on alcohol. This is not going to work for the next, whatever, second half of our lives together, but we’re going to figure out how to dance.

And so, we did end up getting a divorce, but Right, looking up, but they’ve been like, but why like? Why were we always drinking, and why was that the way I was choosing to socialize? There was a lot in me, and that’s the beauty of when we do this work, it’s all me. It’s not him, it’s me. I had this void that I was fulfilling with alcohol. I had twisted myself in so many different ways since I was a child, because of addiction, and so the me showing up in our marriage had a lot of work to do and a lot of healing to do and was not going to. I could no longer numb with alcohol, of being called to my truth and to my expansion and to my healing into the. God, I am here on this earth, and so I had to let that marriage go. And again, because of sobriety and support and community, we have this glorious relationship. But yeah, you have to make some really difficult decisions in your recovery, and it might not be what you thought you signed up for. You might not think, like, okay, we’re just like, that was never something that will cross my mind, but I did, and I survived, and I’m okay and I’m great, and he’s great and in life, and this isn’t, you know, new chapter, alcohol really does a number on relationships, on, yeah, who you are and how you show up, and that’s the work of a lifetime. You were like, just saying the layers and layers of looking at but now, what was they drinking at? What was they drinking over? Now that I’m not Ooh, what am I going to do with that? Yeah, to face it.

Casey McGuire Davidson  35:56 

Everybody’s like, Oh shit. Now I have to deal with all the things I was avoiding without my coping mechanism. Yeah, and I always tell people, they come to me and say, and I’m sure you have this too. They say, My life, my marriage, my job, my stress, my XYZ. And I’m like, all of that is legitimate. Your triggers are real. You deserve better, and you need to remove the alcohol first, because people want to wait, like, I’ll stop drinking when my job is less stressful, or when my boss is less of a nightmare, or when my marriage improves, and I was like, just remove the alcohol. And a lot of that is going to get better. A lot of times, your marriage gets a lot better, your job gets a lot easier, your and if not, at least you come from a place of power, clarity and empowerment to deal with that, because the opposite is drag yourself down, make yourself weaker, and bury your head in the hand, in the sand for what, another five years, another decade, like, you know what I mean.

Erinn O’Neill  37:16 

And you show up with chaos. You’re dealing with chaos, with chaos within versus blame yourself.

Casey McGuire Davidson  37:22 

You don’t have clarity to see like, I mean, now when I’m frustrated or angry or something’s going on, at least I’m not blaming myself for it. Like 90% of the time, I’m like, I’m seeing this clearly. I wasn’t drunk. I don’t have anything to make up for. I mean, other than human stuff, where, you know, you can own up to what you did wrong, but you’re not like, this is my fault, or I don’t remember what I said, or, you know, sometimes people are like, you’re drunk, I’m not even going to talk to you, and you’re like, my what my anger, my frustration, my irritation, is legitimate, but you were dismissing me. And so once you stop drinking, you’re like, No, you don’t get to dismiss me. I am clear, and

Erinn O’Neill  38:16 

I’m like, smiling, ear to ear, thinking, because it’s also when we’re in our power. Like, yeah, how powerful is that? Like, no, I’m sober. I’m seeing this. I will own my part, and if I made you feel that way, I will apologize, but I know clearly what I said, what I did, and I stand behind it, and then I don’t feel guilt.

Casey McGuire Davidson  38:38 

Like, I get to show up, like I’m, yeah, not hungover. I am working hard. I am completely clear, yes, and this is not working for me. But before, I’d be like, Well, I was hungover. I was drunk. I don’t I’m it’s my fault. I’m so then, you know, and the insecurity and anxiety that just comes with what drinking does to your nervous system. It’s a sick that’s real, you know, sick, sick dance.

Erinn O’Neill  39:04 

And the only way to first help yourself is to put down the drink, and then to love someone who is battling, got to stop you got, you know, put down the drink, even if it’s for, you know, you say for a moment in time and say, for right now, as I’m dealing with this, I’m not going to drink, because there’s no way you don’t have power and clarity and like, so you’re basically just adult rinse and repeat of the same crazy chaos and like, you’re right, and your nervous system is all over the place, the first step is putting it down.

Casey McGuire Davidson  39:42 

So actually, if it’s in your house, can you tell us a little bit about the actual program, the actual approach, the actual work, you know, however you’re able to just in turn. What is it?

Erinn O’Neill  39:57 

Yeah, so it’s very so it’s similar to. To if anyone’s ever walked into an AA meeting or two. So, an AA and an Al-Anon, we they will look very similar when you walk in, people sitting around in a circle, usually, unless it’s a larger group. Al-Anon on a little bit more intimate. The meetings that I’ve been to, I don’t know if it’s just less populated where I am, again, I’ve there was fabulous online meeting options as well. For anyone who’s a little intimidated at first at going to a live meeting, I started with Zoom. There’s reading you did, and you share, you start. Started with Zoom. Okay? I started with Zoom, and it was so nice that that’s an option, because I remember the first time I walked into a basement AA meeting, yeah, I had a friend with me, and I was still like, kind of coming out of here.

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit.

 

The Sobriety Starter Kit is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

Casey McGuire Davidson  40:33 

Yeah, I don’t know anyone who doesn’t fucking cry in their first AA meeting. Like, for like, why am I here? How am I here? Like, just happening. I mean, maybe it was me, but I was just like, same way.

Erinn O’Neill  40:58 

No, it was like, I think I hear the bottles of wine being opened down the street. For me, I’m like, I don’t, I don’t know, is this, is this really hit? God, that’s so true.

So, Al-Anon, very similar, but a little bit more intimate, I’ve found, but maybe I’m just going to smaller meetings, and there’s, you know, you’re, you’re, there’s readings you can pass if you don’t want to read. There’s a reading, and then you can share on it. It’s very, I think, simple in a way that’s very deep what you’re reading, but it’s simply laid out like, if you want to read or read if you don’t, you don’t, if you want to share, you don’t have to share. And then you kind of get to express what you are dealing with. But the focus is always for Al-Anon and for AA, this, it’s solution based. It’s looking at how you’re responding. It’s taking ownership of your own behavior, how you’re reacting, and you’re getting the support of living in the solution.

So, for Al-Anon, it’s how you are showing up for the addicts in your life, how are you keeping your boundaries, your response to them? And for AA, it’s you know, how are you living in the 12 steps and making right the wrongs that you’ve made, so to speak. But, and again, there’s, you know, you can work the steps in Al-Anon , you can get a sponsor.

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:22 

There’s prayer after the meeting. You know, they end with prayer. It’s very similar. It’s

what is, what is the prayer?

Erinn O’Neill  42:26 

I think so. I’ve heard a lot of serenity, like the Serenity Prayer at Al-Anon.

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:30 

God grant me the wisdom the things I cannot change.

Erinn O’Neill  42:34 

Which at Al-Anon, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:40 

That is really beautiful. I mean, that is, it’s true regardless of what you believe or think or whatever it is.

I mean, I did when I went to AA. I take a lot of things from it, like just the sayings, not all the dogma, but like the idea of you know, change what you can the wisdom to know the difference, yeah, keeping your own side of the street clean. That for me, was very big like and the idea also of what other people think of me as, none of my business. Just trying to that in my mind, that is all about them. That’s what’s that going on in their life?

Yes, you know, as opposed to as a people pleaser, yes, really is upset if people don’t like me, which is crazy. That was growth in society. But so, there were a lot of things in AA that I did think were really insightful and deep. And I carry with me to this day.

Erinn O’Neill  43:46 

Those are, like, the keys Casey, you just kind of like, encapsulated beautiful, and that’s why we used to drink over those things so and then when we look under it and realize that that’s all BS and that I love the thing of, like, what other people think about me, and that’s huge for anyone who’s dealing with an addict like who’s going to come at you when they are not sober and say some horrible things and try to pull you on you, right?

Casey McGuire Davidson  44:09 

There’s, I mean, I’m speaking for myself. When you drink, you’re the victim. Everyone the problem. Everyone is the reason you drink, right? And how many times have we heard people justify why they need this drink?

Erinn O’Neill  44:18 

In our culture, it’s justified. I’m a stay at home mom, and I’m exhausted, and I just, I deserve this one. I used to, I bought that. I was like, I’ve been home with the kids. I’ll say that. Where’s my wine? It’s unbelievable how it’s ingrained so that, you know, the two programs are very similar in that way. And really what I liked.

So, when I attended some Al-Anon meetings around the holidays, it was a lot about, okay, how we go and prepare like, So and so is coming home, drinking, family dynamics. That’s so Al-Anon  like, that’s like. Ninja Al-Anon. I’m like, okay, holidays, family, boundaries, what am I comfortable with? What we’re going to go here, we’re going to leave it this time that you know, just having a game plan and also not taking it on, working your program.

Casey McGuire Davidson  45:29 

How are you showing up? How are you taking care of your mental well-being, your physical vessel, all those things, so that you can show up in peace and in your power and not be guilted, not be pulled back into to the chaos that addiction people’s permission?

Yeah, or you need permission to not go home, to not stay with your family.

I agree to say no, even if you’re being pressured, and you haven’t been home for a year, and the family has not seen your 2 year old even though you need, you know. We have all these “shoulds” in our mind, but you.

The other thing I would say that I love about community and people who get it, is a lot of times, if people are in your life, in your relationships, know people you feel very guilty sort of ratting out, selling out, exposing the vulnerabilities of your spouse, your mother, your ex. Like, you want their reputation to remain intact, and yet you need, I mean, I found when I was in early sobriety, all my triggers were, you know, about things in my life, and I shared more about my life and my frustrations and my fears and anger with these people online than I ever had with my best friend or certainly my spouse or certainly my mother. My mother’s not terribly soft and fuzzy, but you know, it’s I because I needed to and they got it, and also they were separate from, they didn’t know them, right? So, I didn’t feel guilty. I don’t know that was somehow amazing.

Erinn O’Neill  47:10 

I love it. You see that, because there’s no guilt, and they’re here to help you, so they’re listening, and they are going to help you.

Say, Okay, I see this Casey, maybe this part right here. You like, you know, this is very AA language, like, maybe I need to go say sorry or own amends for this part. But all that, the best part is when someone says, yeah, that’s chaotic. That’s addiction and boundaries and like, and you don’t have to take that on anymore, and that’s abusive. And I had a situation happened to me. It was one of, like, one of, kind of the last straw, so to speak, where I now do things very differently. And when I was retelling this episode, and it was a family outing, they’re like, Erinn, you are not to go back there. You don’t belong there. That’s crazy, and I’m sorry that happened to you, and it’s not okay to be treated that way. And I was thinking, oh God, everyone’s so mad at me at this. It’s so chaotic. It was so upsetting not realizing the drug use, the alcohol use, just the absolute verbal abuse that I was under attack because they were not sober.

They’re wonderful humans. When we’re not sober, all bets are off. We’re all, we can all be horrible when we’re not sober. And I needed someone to give me an out and say, You don’t have to go back there. It’s not going to work for you. You’re sober and they’re struggling. But that’s not that. That’s not an arena for you. It’s not actually safe for you. And I’m like, because I didn’t feel safe, I didn’t feel good. I wanted to get out of there the whole time, but I thought I had to be there because it’s family of origin. And I thought, you know, I have to show up sometimes, right? Not when there’s consumption like that, yeah. And that saved me.

Casey McGuire Davidson  49:07 

Yeah. And people are going to be angry with you when you don’t very take what you used to take. I mean, I think there’s often feedback of, oh, what? You’re too good for us now, like you’re high and mighty. I mean, have you seen that?

Erinn O’Neill  49:22 

I feel like, yes. I feel like, I get that a lot, and I see it a lot. I hear a lot, and even on a personal level, I always just try to say, but by the grace of God, I’m sober, and I don’t feel comfortable in an arena where there’s just a lot of consumption and drunkenness, and because it makes me really sad, and I don’t want to be sad when I’m around you. I want to love you and be connected. But as a sober woman, I actually can’t connect with anybody who’s under the influence, because it’s impossible. And so, then I’m doing this very weird dance of, “I don’t know what to do here”. And I’m not saying like, one or two glasses of wine. I’m saying like, yeah, we’re, you’re not there anymore, and I can’t connect. And then things get very uncomfortable and strange and weird. And that person, the me that used to drink, she’s dead. That person does not exist. So, you can’t. You have to stop looking for her. You have to. This is ME. Your “self” first.

Casey McGuire Davidson  50:23 

Like, you know, I always think, like that physical sobriety piece for sure, but emotional sobriety too. And you know, it did, like, sometimes you need someone else to tell you, hey, that’s, that’s trauma, what you went through? Because we were like, Oh no, that wasn’t trauma. That was just, they tried their best and it was fine, and they never yelled at me, or they never did x, and you’re like, well, that’s neglect. And you’re like, yes, it is. And, and, you know, sometimes for me, I needed someone to – it was my therapist to be like. My daughter was 3 at the time, and she was like, Would you do that to her? Would you let her feel that way? Would you be if she came to you with these emotions? Would you tell her what you tell yourself, which is fucking deal with it. Stuff up. You signed up for this. No, you would be like, Oh my god, baby girl. Like, love her yes. And you’d let her cry, and you’d let you’d be like, That’s not okay. But for ourselves, we’re like, suck it up, you know, like, yes.

Erinn O’Neill  51:37 

And so, to that point, which is so beautiful, I can’t go, and you can’t go, and anyone listening can’t go back into that arena where that’s the mode of operation, that’s how they’re still dealing because I’m not that. I’m not there anymore, and I’m not okay with that. I’ve come full circle to realize, and it took me getting into, like, you know, an Al-Anon  program, getting a trauma therapist, and realizing, like, oh, oh, my God, wait. Oh, this, this is so not okay. And then like, mourning what the inner child went through.

And, you know, I mean, and understand why I was drinking so heavily, you know, it’s, it’s not why the drinking, it’s why the pain? Where? Why? Why? And once we uncover that and have grace for myself, I have grace for them, but I have iron clad, iron clad boundaries today, because I’m going to protect myself now. I can now. I know I didn’t know them when I was a child, yeah, but I’m not drinking anymore, so I don’t I have to keep my boundaries, and you’re right. I have to put myself first, and I have to love myself fiercely.

Casey McGuire Davidson  52:54 

I have to realize that they’re still they’re not well, they’re still suffering, and when they’re still suffering, they’re going to cope and numb because there’s so much pain. And also, it’s not your fault and it’s not yours to fix. No, right?

Erinn O’Neill  52:58 

No, no, I can only work on myself. And that’s again, full circle. Like, yeah, that’s the premise of Al-Anon . Like, how am I showing up? How am I doing my own work? How do what? How are my boundaries serving myself and them? How am I detaching with love?

Casey McGuire Davidson  53:16 

But also, like, I don’t deserve this. I don’t. I deserve better, yes. And when you know that you attract that, too. So that’s like, the next beautiful thing, right?

Erinn O’Neill  53:20 

Like, once you have those boundaries and you know what you deserve and you seek it and you desire it, you get it. Yeah, versus staying in that pit and thinking that somehow you’re going to twist enough to make that person better, you can’t.

Casey McGuire Davidson  53:38 

What about if couple things. One, you become isolated, maybe because you’re embarrassed by their behavior, or because when you drink and you have a drinking buddy, you can become very isolated, but you’re not seeking outside support.

What if you’re worried that if you draw a boundary, if you don’t bend over backwards, like you said, twist yourself into a pretzel, that they’re going to get more angry at you or more emotionally abusive? Like, I just, I don’t want to make it worse, so therefore I am going to appease and please and keep quiet.

Erinn O’Neill  54:25 

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And by not wanting to make it worse, we make it worse, really.

Yeah. Like by doing that, we’re making it 10 times worse for ourselves and for the person that we love. And again, this is why we need these conversations. And we need people who’ve been through it to say, Hey, Casey, I know you love this person, but that’s not loving. You deserve better, and what you’re doing is keeping yourself stuck and even that person even more so stuck. You need to step out. You need boundaries, you need to seek help, and you need to walk away for right now, and you need to work on your own healing.

Yeah. And guess what? That they’re going to be holy hell mad at you. It’s going to be not pretty. I’ve been through it. I’ve had to, I mean, now I like, joke about it, but I’m like, you know, sometimes you have to block people on your phone, like, it’s like, it’s just things are not going to be, you know, butterflies and rainbows in recovery. And when you set these boundaries, and when we come to it and say, what was that? That’s why we need other people to say, totally been there, totally done that. This is what worked for me. Here’s my hand. Let’s go. Here’s the path. You cannot do this in isolation, and I know, like for me in early recovery, hearing my sponsor story, because I never wanted to talk about anything. I was like, No. No one had problems like me. Or no one drank like me. Or I can have to just stay once she shared her story. I was like, That’s me. She’s so brave.

Okay, I’m going to do what she’s doing. Yeah, okay. And then I just start, you just share all this stuff all the time. You’re like, there’s nothing to be embarrassed about. It’s being human, yeah, but we isolate, because that shame keeps us so isolated and away from any sort of real solution and hope and power where God is like, I’ve got you and it’s okay, but you, you’ve got to be honest first. Yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:16 

I mean, I found that even with my sobriety, hearing other people, and people have said this to me about the podcast too, and I’m sure with you, every one of our stories are different. And yet, when you find that person who is saying the shit that you’re embarrassed about, or you too, or you’re like, Fuck, this is close.

Erinn O’Neill  56:37 

Yeah, you feel like you’re not the worst person in the world.

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:40 

And like, oh well, she did it too, and he did it too, and this person did this, and it makes it easier. And also, like, at this point you get further away. I’m like, people are like, Oh, my God, I can’t believe you told that story. And I’m like, Yeah, I’m weirdly not embarrassed about it at all. Like, it’s kind of funny, or it’s pretty fucked up, or, yeah, that was bad. Like, right, right. Actually, I mean, there’s one or two things that I’m like, I’m not going to say that out loud, but, like, literally, it’s one or two things. And, you know, it’s not that. I personally think that it’s the worst thing in the world. It’s just like, hey, I’m not sharing that, but, you know, but 95% of it, I’m like, Yeah, I’m telling you this, and I’m not embarrassed by it, because you’re free.

Erinn O’Neill  57:41 

You’re free. Yeah, that’s freedom. And how beautiful is that? And How great does that feel like I walked around with like a pit in my stomach and like an elephant on my heart my whole life, and now I’m like, Yeah, this is me, and this happened. And, you know, at any moment, I begin again and like I’m human, having a human like, I’m doing the best I can, but I share everything in hopes that someone can say, Oh, my God, thank you. Yeah, me too, because I needed that. I couldn’t breathe. I was drowning, and someone pulled me up. And so, if I can pull somebody out of drowning by just being honest and vulnerable me, like, yeah, I don’t have anything together, and some days, and, you know, and this is, I’m doing the best I can, but we have to, we have to be honest with why we drank in the first place. And that is a lifetime of work. I think we’re constantly and you need something deeper.

Casey McGuire Davidson  58:35 

Yeah, someone to unpack it. And usually, a lot of times you need a professional. I mean, I love that you said you went to a trauma therapist, trauma specialist. Yeah, and a lot of people do coaching in addition to therapy. I do because a lot of times therapists, depending on who they are, are not addiction experts.

But I think a lot of people need both. Some people need yeah, to get away from drinking with whatever support then yes, and marriage counseling and to someone who specializes in narcissist or like codependency and whatever it is, but you do need support for all of the different things. And I am very clear when I’m coaching people, like, if someone has an emotionally abusive partner, I need to refer them to someone who has experience and expertise. If someone has a severe eating disorder, I need to refer them to someone because I don’t have that experience, and you need someone who’s an expert in that and gets it.

Erinn O’Neill  59:45 

And I think that’s the best thing too, because we’re in this world, we’re so connected, and have people in all those different spots say, okay, you know what? I can take you this far, but you need this and like, and again, it’s seasonal, like working with the trauma. A therapist was seasonal for me, and I’ll touch back in if I need it, but it was so eye opening, and just to hear some of her insights and say, Wow, okay, right? And like, Here I am, like, in the work and coaching other women, and in, you know, doing so many different things, but there’s things very deep, and, like, an expert, can really pull them out. And when you do and you extract that, Oh, my God, it’s amazing.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:29 

Yeah, you just and you need someone’s support while you are changing your behavior. Because it is scary. It’s scary to, like, put down a boundary, and then it is scary to hold it. You know, a lot of times we try to put down a boundary, and then we get scared, and we try to backtrack and make it better and take it back. And just even like sitting in being uncomfortable and letting the reaction be whatever it is, yeah, that is a lot of emotional work, a lot and being okay, knowing that that reaction has nothing to do with you.

Erinn O’Neill  1:00:55 

Yes, for the first time in your life, you’re allowing that person to have a reaction, and you’re not taking it on, because it’s their work and their journey, and that’s their pain, and perhaps for the first time, they’re fully feeling their pain, versus, yeah, you’re taking 90% of it, you know?

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:01:18 

And what if you’re afraid that, like they’re going to die, like you’re fearful for their lives. Um, it’s hard to detach with love when that is, well, that’s when, God willing, you detach with love, and you have other support systems in place, where, if you really feel like the person you love is in danger.

Erinn O’Neill  1:01:32 

You can call somebody. You can have them taken to a rehab or in a recovery program or a hospital, or having their best friend come over and say, Hey, we’re going to have like an intervention of sorts, but that’s more helpful in saving their life than you staying there and enabling something that’s going to eventually kill them. They are killing themselves in front of you. We don’t want to enable that, and we do it so much out of fear and out of thinking that we’re keeping them alive, and really we’re just keeping them stuck in this cycle of addiction that eventually will kill them. I’ve heard it so many times in the rooms where you’re like, oh my god, like this, this substance will kill. It’s designed to destroy our bodies and our brain, so when we are in the source of addiction, it’s only a matter of time.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:38 

Yeah, question for you, can you go to Al-Anon if you are struggling with someone else in your life who does not specifically have a substance abuse problem? Or is that not the purpose?

Erinn O’Neill  1:02:55 

I think Al-Anon , you would have to be with somebody who has some sort of addiction, like, that’s your qualifier. They would say, like, how you so? But if they don’t, so, you mean they just more have, like, a personality issue, or yeah?

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:03:09 

Well, I’ve heard from people who love Al-Anon, and I don’t know if they originally went because someone in their lives struggled. I probably, but just saying, oh my god, it’s helped me so much. The tools and the insight in parenting teenagers, yeah, or, you know, the teenager doesn’t have an addiction issue, but just the tools of how you interact with people and the degree to which you try to fix them, and the degree to which you push if they’re not connecting with you or whatever.

Erinn O’Neill  1:03:46 

Well, I mean, it’s a phenomenal program. And so, you know, to be honest, your qualifier could be anybody, like, if you’re a human being in this world today, you know, somebody battling addiction. So yeah, there’s your qualifier. I mean, right, like everybody, so it might not be the reason why you come into the room, but you are surrounded by addiction.

So yeah, if you’re using it to show up in a way, to be more loving, more grace, and to understand how to navigate difficult relationships in a world that’s saturated with alcohol and drugs, see why that’s bad, yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:04:22 

But there’s also, I mean, I, I, what I love right now with the world, with the internet, with the explosion of coaching and podcasting, is you can find and obviously you need to vet people carefully, someone who actually specializes in what you’re going through like there are, if someone’s going through a divorce with whatever version of that is, children, no children. They have financial power. They have no financial power. Their spouse is x. Their spouse is y. You can start with a podcast and then find a Coach. And find a group, or whatever it is, of people who get that. Do you know what I mean?

Erinn O’Neill  1:05:05 

And you need that. Your community. And we are so lucky to live in this time and place where you can find a community to help you with whatever you’re navigating. Yes, but like, definitely, find your community. Find people who not only are going through what you’re going through, but you like what you see in here, like you are they’re aspirational, like you want what they have. And you’re thinking, Okay, I want to get there, yeah, so I’m going to follow what they’re doing. That’s yeah, that’s the key. But there’s always a better way, and there’s always people who’ve already done it, and so, you know, always seeking help and seeking to starts with being honest with what you’re going through.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:05:42 

Yeah, what you Yeah? I mean, might have a spouse with Asperger’s or a special child, or being a single mother or, I mean, you name it. I don’t know anyone who does not struggle with something in their lives. I mean, that’s just being human. And the worst part is, none of us talk about it 90% at the time, well, we’re changing that, because this is what, not what we’re doing, because we have to talk about it.

Erinn O’Neill  1:06:03 

Everybody struggles. Everybody does not matter. And that’s another thing, like does not matter how the outsides look. The insides, Everyone is struggling. We’re human beings with souls that long for connection and love, and to be fully seen and fully known and, and there’s a lot of pain and suffering. And so, what are we going to do? And we’re not drinking over it. So, where’s our solution? What are we doing? And that’s the whole thing. There’s a better way. There is a solution. And alcohol is not it, drugs, yeah, alcohol is not mine, is not it? No, yeah. We don’t know we face.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:06:41 

I love that quote about Be kind, because everything, everybody is going through something that, you know, sure, I’m going to mangle it, but you know that quote.

Erinn O’Neill  1:06:51 

I like that is how we can be kind to the people that we love so much that are an active addiction and are not kind to us and are struggling because it’s, it’s their addiction and like, that’s how we can separate. Say you are not well, I love the real you, but the you that’s drinking.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:07:09 

I need to have boundaries and separate, but you don’t get to treat me that way, even if I understand. No and version of your covid first.

Erinn O’Neill  1:07:17 

Yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:07:21 

One thing I did want to ask you about, just because it hasn’t personally been my experience, and I know a lot of people wonder about this. Can you tell me about your decision to go to rehab and what that was like? Because I know.

Erinn O’Neill  1:07:35 

Oh my gosh, that’s a great question, because it was hell Casey, like really talk about brutal honesty, I if I did not have children, well, I probably wouldn’t have gone if I didn’t have children, to just be honest, really. So it was, it was the hardest decision. My best friend, who’s an, she is one of my angels. She found the rehab for me. My ex has been very supportive of it. My. It was so – I’m coming up on 5 years. July 23.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:08:06 

By the grace, congratulations.

Erinn O’Neill  1:08:10 

Thank you, babe. So, thank you. I can’t believe it. So, I landed in rehab on the 23^rd. July 23. It’s my day one, and I just was saturated with alcohol in my environment, summertime, Jersey Shore. I just drinking culture, and I knew, like, there was no way I could stop drinking unless I was, like, extracted from the environment. So, I thought, okay, everyone wants me to go. My drinking had taken on new heights, new levels, and it was chaos, and it was horrible. Said, Okay, like, I didn’t really think about it again, because I was, like, drinking so heavily, so I was not in my right mind.

Agreed to this, not knowing what I was agreeing to. I really had no idea when you were drinking. Yeah, I was like, you know, I drank then I forgot to rehab. I was like, Okay, I’m going away. I mean, buried the pit in my soul where I was like, how am I going to leave my kids for a month, like, and still have pain about that? That’s still, like the trauma and like the work of like, the traumas.

How old were they? Okay? So, Peter was 10. Dylan, was 8. So, 8 and 10 says, 5 years ago, yeah, 8 and 10?

Um, yeah. So, there we go. And so, I just said I was going on a wellness retreat. I had no idea what I was again, getting myself into I had no I didn’t know anybody who went to rehab, but I knew I could. They know now that you went to rehab they do because now I, like, I talk about it all the time. I’m like, yeah, in like, I talk about being, you know, living alcohol-free, being sober. And, yeah, so they do know, but they thought I went on like, a wellness trip for a month and, but my daughter still, you know, she’s like, Please never do that again. Like, never go away for a month again. I go, babe. Have been never again. I’m, like, if I go with someone, you were coming with me, like, like, so, so I kind of the decision was kind of made for me. And I also thought at that time the idea was swirling of divorce, separation, and I wanted to present well and make sure that I had my wits about me if that was the road I was going to go down.

So, I, again, my best friend found this rehab for me. I entered into rehab. Casey, when I tell you I had no idea what to expect, it’s like, I think I’m still traumatized, but just entering into rehab without knowing what to expect, it’s a wild thing. It’s wild.

I mean, it’s like, I was highly addicted to wine, like, I was, like, you know, a wine drinking champion, like, it just boggles my mind how much I could consume and still be standing but there, you know, in rehab, you get all different types of drugs and addictions. And it was, it was eye opening. I got an education, there’s a lot of people coming off of heroin. I just was not exposed to this. And so it was, it was I saw addiction, and it was, it’s ugly and it’s scary, and people were gray, like, I think they were walking dead, and it scared me, shook me. So, I spent a month there, and really was pretty miserable. Now, of course, I know so much more about rehabs and what I would look for and for me and my type, versus someone who’s, you know, different types of addictions, different types of rehabs.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:11:40 

So, you would have gone to a different one.

Erinn O’Neill  1:11:43 

I would have. I would have gone to a different one who would again, like, this is me. I really got into the AI in a spiritual solution. So, I would want to go to a more by a 12 step, but maybe somewhere like in Arizona, where you spent the entire day outside, and it was in nature and holistic and detoxing the body and, you know, so now, anybody’s listening needs some guidance. Like, I’m here to help, because now I’m like, I feel like, I’m like, A, it’s almost like a tour guide for rehabs, because I’ve now worked with so many different women and being in the rooms, and just, you know, out of the rooms, people who are different, like, I am going to refer, obviously, well, to you for Al-Anon problems, even, definitely they decide to do so.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:12:21 

I mean, you’ve experienced that, yeah, but also rehabs, because people ask me about them, and I just don’t know. And, of course, I know I’ve heard, oh, they’re the really, she, she crazy, crazy, expensive, but, like, very nice environments. And then I know other people who’ve been to ones where it was, it was tough, you know, they have, you like, cleaning the toilets and, you know, all that, no, it’s, it’s so interesting.

Erinn O’Neill  1:12:57 

And I have, like, it’s so funny. Yeah, so please refer me. I’m happy to have a discussion about rehabs with anyone. I have sponsors who went to a fabulous rehabs in Austin, where I think that would have been more my speed. I have, like, one of my best friends went to, like, one of those shi shi ones in California. Like, it’s so funny. And then I had another friend who went to a very bare bones like, almost, like, in a covenant kind of place, and she loved it. So again, like, it’s like, you got to fit what works for you.

The beauty of the rehab, though, for me, was it separated me, separated me from alcohol for 30 days, yeah, and I needed that, and it worked. I got, you know, I then had, like, firm, fitting, firm footing. When I returned back home, I went right into AI, and then I went right into healing my body and really researching, and that’s what led me to become a health and lifestyle coach. Because they’re like, wait a second, there’s like, some missing parts here. My back, my body was badly burned, my brain, like, what? How am I repopulate my neurotransmitters. Like, we’re not talking about this, like guys, what, you know, what type of exercise is the best nutrition for someone in recovery, or just someone in general, for to boost my mood and to help detoxify my cells and tissue tissues, sleep protocols. So, it jump started me, and it got me out of hell and firmer footing to then embark on true recovery. It was really, really hard. It was really hard, because can you tell me what yours was like?

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:14:57 

Yeah. So, they had different programs. So, they had AA meetings. They had different like, therapy throughout the day, the group sessions, they had a lot. They had some, like, you know, outdoor like, ropes courses and stuff like that. Now, of course, I’m like, where is my fucking rose? And this is ridiculous. Like, What the fuck did what? How were you like, I don’t belong here.

Erinn O’Neill  1:15:02 

Yes, yes. I’m like, I don’t belong here. I like, you know, get the reports back, like, kids on the beach today. And I was like, I’m dying. I’m dying. Like, well, what is my life like this? But then I’m so once I commit to something, I’m like, I’m going to show everybody, because everyone doesn’t know me drinks a lot too. So, I’m going to go back and, like, show them I can do this, but I have to say, when you stop drinking, you do start feeling better. Like, you know, it’s funny, like, you I’m doing it reluctantly, but my sleep got better, and I started, you know, there was a great gym, so I had exercise every day.

There was meditation every morning, I met some great girlfriends. I dabbled a little bit in AA, but I wasn’t ready yet to go all in, because I was still like, I don’t even know if this is for me, but so those were the positives. But I just think I was so deeply sad. There was so much sadness, and I took away my solution, which was alcohol. I stopped numbing, and I was sitting in hell, and I felt all alone, and like I will not wish that on anyone. And again, my children as my anchors. Of like, you got to keep pushing. Erinn, you’ve got to keep pushing. You have these kids, and they’re like everything, and I will do everything and anything to stay float for them. And so, they kept me afloat because I was in this tremendous pain. And part of that, too was me of not allowing anyone in. Because I was like, Okay, I’m in this stupid rehab. I don’t know if I even have a problem. I just was, you know, I was drinking a lot because of a b and c, right? Like, I’m going to justify my drinking, but it gave me the Jump Start I needed. It wouldn’t be the place that I would go or recommend for someone like me but look at what I gained from it. It jump started this calling of wanting to help people in recovery, and it led me down that right path. And so, it gave me my first 30 days. I’ll always be eternally grateful. And I learned a lot in the contrast, I learned a lot too. But oh, my goodness, if we are sitting in that pain without a solution, I know why people drink again.

Yeah, if you don’t have solutions at work and you just take away your alcohol and you’re sitting in hell, you’re going to drink and you’re going to drink.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:17:19 

Yeah, you need to make your life better. And that takes that takes work.

Erinn O’Neill  1:17:26 

It takes work, and you got to start healing right away. Like day one. You have start living the solution and healing and being around people who are showing you how to do it and have done it.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:17:37 

So yeah, but yeah, a couple of times that it wasn’t the right one for you? Yeah, what I mean, if someone’s listening to this and they’re considering rehab or interested in rehab, just tell me what some of the things are that you would look for.

Erinn O’Neill  1:17:55 

Okay, so again, like, I would look for more like a spiritual based solution or program like at that, it was kind of void of that. I felt like it encompassed too many different types of addictions where I wasn’t really relating to like I was a heavy, heavy alcoholic drinker, so I would have done better if it was just more of that of the population.

Yeah, and I needed, oh, they, they took your phone away, so there was, like, a communal phone. I needed contact with my children. I understand why they do that, but I think for moms like, I think that made me so depressed and worse that I had to, like, wait on a line to call my kids. And I couldn’t be in constant contact with them, or they couldn’t just text me, like, Hey Mom, I love you. And this is, here’s a picture of me at the beach today or something. So that was really hard. That does not that wouldn’t work for me ever again, and that doesn’t happen everywhere.

No, people get their phones. And maybe it’s like, you get your phones for a couple hours throughout the day, but at least you know, like, here’s my points of contact with my beloveds, and just to want to connect with your family or your children. I think I would go into more of a holistic place where they were doing, like deep tissue cleansing, again, like all different types of modalities to heal your body detoxify.

I did like they did do acupuncture, which I liked, so like, but like more of those types of modalities, the acupuncture, the meditation, the breathing, infrared saunas, movement, just other ways to like. And you were saying before, earlier, we were talking like all that anger and all that pain has to come out of your vessel, energy, work. How are you actually getting that out versus speaking is not enough, like we are holding we are these containers of pain. I mean, you put down this, you stop numbing, and you’re sitting in it shit. Why am I dealing with this? So, I would go to a place that really dealt heavily with these holistic modalities that then I eventually create it in my lifestyle. That’s how I live now, but I had to go learn and find the teachers and the gurus and then become it myself. And again, that was part of my journey.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:20:16 

I would do something more like that. I think that I mean, and I know some rehabs are very expensive, but I also note that insurance does cover, you know, depending on your health insurance, what are your thoughts? I mean, if someone wanted to talk to you about it, do you have ideas of how to navigate that kind of stuff?

Erinn O’Neill  1:20:34 

Yes, and actually, it helps. It’s so funny. I something we talk about a lot, but it was on our podcast, and someone reached out to me. Reached out to me and said, Hey, you were talking about rehab. And so I got on the phone with her, and we were able to, like, kind of troubleshoot some things, and she threw her in her insurance, was able to get into a rehab that was very aligned for her. And I think some of it was out of pocket, some of it was insurance, and she’s, like, kicking ass sober, and it was like the best thing, best decision she ever made.

And so again, we just have to be honest. We have to ask for help. We have to go to people who have been there, done that. And I do think, like, you know, God works in mysterious ways. Like part of my journey was to have a really shitty experience in rehab, because I’m going to help people. And now know like, Oh, this is what I should have looked for. And now I know that I didn’t know anybody who went to rehab, and it was like an embarrassing topic to talk about. So, it’d be like, hey guys at dinner. Thing about rehab is no like, now I talk about it, but before I didn’t. So now I know what to look for, and I do have so many different people, like my sponsor went to a great place clinic as well, and she highly recommends it. And so, I have, like, all these point people too that they could also connect with, because that’s the beauty of recovery. Once you’ve been on the other side, you’re like, I’ll help you. I’ll jump on a call. Sure. Like, you come up, yeah, let’s do it.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:22:04 

Yeah. And I love knowing that you have all this experience, because obviously I know you with a podcast, we talk to so many people, and being able to know who to refer people to is key. And, you know, I don’t have any experience going to rehab, and I don’t have any experience with a spouse who or a or a mother or a sister who has a really problematic drinking issue. And so, I want to refer people to with people who get that and have resources and have tools and have advice and coaching around that, you know, powerful.

Erinn O’Neill  1:22:42 

Yeah. And we’re all in this together. We’re all connected. And we all know somebody who needs one of our resources, you know, that’s the thing. And like, at one point we’re going to need their hand. And it’s like, this constant just reaching and giving, and it’s beautiful. And I love to, like, as our world expands. We’re so lucky to be in the space. It’s so expansive that you keep meeting these really cool people. So, you’re like, oh, that could be great for so and so. And I never thought of that, or this is, you know, there’s so many different specialties, and people just who know so much more than I know, that I’m like, oh, like, even my sponsor, to this day, she has wealth of knowledge in recovery. And I’m like, I’m going to call you. This person’s going to call you. Or can you give me like this? What would you do here? And it’s awesome.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:23:30 

Yeah, yeah. The other one that I need, the other topic that I know I need to find the right person for, because I get asked about it all the time, and it’s somewhat related, is people reach out to me for coaches and resources for men, and you know that type of thing, you know, like, Hey, I’m looking for someone who does what you do, but for men, and I have sort of a list of a few Coaches that I don’t know, but I have them. I have compiled lists of programs and, you know, various things that I’ve, I’ve sort of tangentially heard of, but I think that is an area that I need to find someone really knowledgeable to do an episode on, because it’s, it’s not something that I have my at my you know, I’ve got an email that I send to everyone who asks about male resources, which is the best I have, but I don’t, I wish it was more robust, and I wish I felt, you know, very confident about, yep, this person is amazing, because I have that. For women, like, if I can’t coach someone, or my expertise is different, I’m like, here’s a lift list of 10 Coaches, but here are the 3 that I think you should definitely contact and might resonate with, you know?

Erinn O’Neill  1:24:55 

So, it’s so interesting. Like the men thing. So, I’m actually, this summer, I’m going and taking a Coaching course. And it’s Arete. Have you heard of he’s one year no beer?

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:25:08 

Oh yeah, I’ve heard of one year no beer.

Erinn O’Neill  1:25:12 

He’s has a coaching program, and he has a coaching platform, and he’s phenomenal. And I kind of watched him on the Rich Roll podcast where, like, Ooh, this is amazing. And I really like what he has, and he’s alcohol-free coaching. That’s a whole like world in there. Like, he has a ton of Coaches for men. And I’m trying to think, what other male coaches? I mean, honestly, I’m very connected. Like, if it’s non coaching, if it’s Al-Anon  or AA, I can always refer to I have a lot of cool AA-ers And Al-Anon or male that would can men stay with men?

Women stay with women, sort of thing. But I’ll let you know from when I take this course this summer about the Yeah, this platform, because I think that could be a really good resource for your guys.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:26:02 

I yeah, I am, I am looking into it right now. I’m grabbing the link, so I will put that in the link. Very cool. Thank you, because I think that’s important. Like having, yeah, something, you know, something that that help. I know this naked mind has some coaches that are men. I know TLC has the luckiest club has a men’s group. I know recovery elevator is men and women, but it’s, it’s run by Paul Churchill. I think it has a bigger population of men. But for women, I just have, you know, if someone wants a one on one private coach, I’ve got a list of people who I’ve interviewed on the podcast or who I’ve worked with, but I’m like, yep, this person would be great. And I actually talked to them and are like, are you still taking new clients, or are you do XYZ when I’m when I’m full? I want to have that for men, so thank you for pointing me in this direction, Erinn.

Erinn O’Neill  1:27:09 

He has an awesome Instagram too, like just for men to check out. I love his content.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:27:13 

Oh, what? What’s his Andy?

Erinn O’Neill  1:27:16 

Let’s see. I can find. Ss it Andy Ramash Ramage?

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:27:19 

Yes, oh my god, I love him. Okay, I love him, yeah. Um, he training coaches, right in positive psychology. Okay, you’re doing that.

Erinn O’Neill  1:27:31 

I’m doing that. He has an alcohol-free container. Now, alcohol Okay, coaching, so he has that, and now he just started the alcohol free, okay?

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:27:40 

And I feel like that’s a little different than one year no beer. He was a co-founder of that, yes, but he left that.

Erinn O’Neill  1:27:47 

Okay, that’s what I love doing, rich row, that Rich Roll that led me to his container, his coaching thing.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:27:54 

Yeah, okay. I will link to his episode. I was not connecting that name. That’s so biased. Yes, all right, I love that. So yeah, Andy, I will link to that episode. I actually loved interviewing him. I just knew that he didn’t personally do coaching anymore, but he is. He’s training coaches on.

Erinn O’Neill  1:28:18 

He has this, like whole team, because I have like, onboarding interview. So, I was like, Okay, this is awesome, yeah, so I’m excited for that, but that’s great that you’re already friends with him. Amazing.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:28:30 

Oh yeah, he’s wonderful. Um, really cool. Great.

Well, I feel like I’ve learned so much. Thank you for being open to a conversation with someone who doesn’t totally get it. I feel like I understand it a lot more. I feel like I can speak about it in a positive way. Obviously, I don’t know it, but refer people to it if appropriate. And I’m just going to. I’m just going to refer people to this episode and to you as well. So, we covered a lot of ground and thank you. I really appreciate you.

Erinn O’Neill  1:29:03 

I love it. You are the best. Thank you for having me, of course.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Hello Someday podcast.

If you’re interested in learning more about me, the work I do, and access free resources and guides to help you build a life you love without alcohol. Please visit hellosomedaycoaching.com. And I would be so grateful if you would take a few minutes to rate and review this podcast so that more women can find it. And join the conversation about drinking less and living more.