Want to read the full transcript of this podcast episode? Scroll down on this page.

READ THE TRANSCRIPT OF THIS PODCAST INTERVIEW

How To Make And Keep Friends In Sobriety with Anna Goldfarb

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

sobriety friendships, emotional support, hobbies passions, modern friendship, friendship roles, social media impact, friendship cleanse, friendship breaks, friendship clinginess, friendship fails, friendship renegotiation, friendship consistency, friendship vulnerability, friendship positivity, friendship maintenance

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Anna Goldfarb

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a buzz, how to sit with your emotions when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there. Today, we are talking about

how to make and how to keep friends in sobriety.

My guest is Anna Goldfarb. She’s been called the New York Times’ Friendship Correspondent. Anna’s reporting has appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic Fox and more. Her new book, modern friendship, how to nurture our most valued connections, explores the nuances of navigating adult friendships in a hyper, fluid society.

And Anna, I was just telling you I’m really excited to have this conversation, because a lot of us worry about keeping friends when we stop drinking, especially if they’re drinkers, and then making new friends that might not be centered around drinking or are sober as adults, is super challenging.

Anna Goldfarb  02:15

Yeah, I understand the trepidation, because one of the most important and exciting things I learned when writing and researching modern friendship is that every friendship needs an “about”, and the “about” needs to be clear and compelling to both people.

So, if your friendship was either about alcohol or alcohol was played a big part in what you guys did. You went out dancing and drinking. You guys went out socializing and drinking. You’re going to realize you might have to renegotiate your friendship. Of what’s our new about. But if it doesn’t include alcohol, and I’m sure that can be really daunting, and, you know, provoke all sorts of feelings of, oh God, like, what? What is our friendship about? And maybe even mourning friendships where it was about drinking and well, that that’s, that’s an about that’s not compelling to me anymore.

So, we have to find new “abouts’.

Casey McGuire Davidson  03:16

I love that. Can you give me any examples of like, what the about could be?

Anna Goldfarb  03:23

Yeah, well, studies show that we make friends for 5 reasons.

Generally speaking, the first one is career. People who help you know, networking help with your job.

Second one is meeting we want. We have friends hoping that they’ll introduce us to other people that we want to date to. Big thing in our 20s is, you know, that’s what we talk about, that’s what we, that’s how we drink. Is because we’re going out dancing to meet other people. We’re going out to bars to meet other people.

The third thing is emotional support. That’s, I know, especially for women, that’s a huge part of our friendship, is, what do we talk about? Well, we give each other to support and validation.

Um, the fourth thing is just belonging to a group. Like, that’s why you join a book club, just to be out and about with other people. Um, just to be part of the group.

And the last thing are, is hobbies and passions. We create friends to, you know, do knitting with whatever we’re into, yeah, into the stuff that moves us. So those are usually very strong about so when we talk about drinking, it’s interesting to see how it overlaps. Of, well, is this part of, why do we drink? You know, like I said, meeting even career, like networking after work, getting drinks after work. But there’s other things you can do, like hobbies and passions. I have friends where we never drink together. We’re both writers. We both love writing. We meet during the day to write, and alcohol is a non-factor. Because that’s not what our friendships about. So that’s an interesting lens to look through your friendships and diagnose where, where the status is.

Casey McGuire Davidson  05:11

Yeah and that makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, I know that a lot of my friends, when I stopped drinking, I was very lucky in that, I actually didn’t lose most of my close friends, but I’d also known them for like, 15 years. You know, we were friends before we stopped drinking, or before we had kids, and then we sort of had kids around the same time, and then we went through all the stuff people go through, aging parents and work stress and layoffs and all that stuff. So, I think we were more in the emotional support category than just drinking bed buddies.

Anna Goldfarb  05:56

Yeah. So, then it may not be as rattled your friendships may not be as rattled when you take a step back from drinking, depending on what the about is.

Casey McGuire Davidson  06:06

Yeah, you know what’s interesting, too. And I know people listening to this may not believe it. It makes so much sense when you talk about those five reasons, is that when you’ve stopped drinking, I may have made a ton of friends online, which I know it seems weird, but in these not drinking online groups, and both the emotional support and belonging to a group made us very, very close very early, because you have this thing that you’re going through together. And I remember the first time I texted this woman who’s like, my sober bestie when we weren’t drinking, it felt so weird. Like be going from this, like becoming text friends with people is like, a huge jump, don’t you think?

Anna Goldfarb  06:58

Yeah, well, it’s very different, very different requirements, you know, when you’re on text versus when you’re in person, and you know you have to pay attention your body language, all sorts of things.

Casey McGuire Davidson  07:12

And just like, Am I bothering you? Right? Like, am I do you even want to be text friends? Like, it’s so weirdly vulnerable, but that’s the step where suddenly you can reach out to someone if you’re having a hard time or if something’s going wrong.

Anna Goldfarb  07:31

Yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson  07:33

Well, so I know, in your book, you’ve written about modern friendships and how they can be ambiguous and how to gain clarity. Will you tell me a little bit about sort of the state of modern friendship that you found?

Anna Goldfarb  07:46

Yeah, modern friendships are a supermarket basically. It is very much like going to a supermarket and you, you know, you’ve all gone supermarket shopping when we’re hungry and you are easily distracted by whatever your crate, wherever the cravings take you, of, you know, the hot bar, the ice cream aisle, whatever you whatever you your cravings dictate. And then you check out and you realize, how am I going to have a nutritious dinner or a meal based on all these random things I put in my cart? And that’s what our social lives are like.

Because when you go on social media and you see all sorts of random people from all parts of your life, and you think, oh, I should reach out to this person.

Oh, hey, thinking of you.

Oh, hey, I should ask this person I haven’t seen this friend in six months.

Oh, we should go out.

And you’re just sort of like randomly sending messages to people maybe hearing back, maybe not hearing back, and none of it feels like a nourishing meal. Now, when you compare that to when you go food shopping and you’re already full and you have a list and you know what belongs in your cart, and you aren’t as easily distracted by the oh, I want to try that. Oh, that’s a new fudge flavor, like whatever. When you have a more disciplined plan, it’s not so overwhelming. And just like you have to train yourself how to as an adult, how to be healthy, how to cook healthy, how to shop healthy, we can do that for our friendships. And what that looks like is prioritizing what I found.

This is based off of Robin Dunbar‘s research, who’s a British anthropologist. He’s brilliant. He wrote a book called, Friends, and he found that usually we have an innermost, intimate tier, which I call the bathtub.

And for men, it’s usually one person in this innermost, elite tier, intimacy tier, it’s usually their significant other. But for women, it’s usually two people in this tier. It’s usually a significant other and a best friend.

And then, you go down a step, and that’s what I call the jacuzzi friend. So, the 3 to 5, what he calls the support tier. The support tier, these are the people that you’d think in an academy awards speech. 3 to 5 people is all you really need. And really, what I learned is pick 3 to 5 friends and just be a wonderful teammate to them. Don’t get so distracted with the outer rings and orbits of friends that you don’t see very often. They don’t live near you and you’re feeling guilty, or, you know, stressing. It’s like, focus on the people that you see all the time. These are active friendships in your Jacuzzi tier, and just be wonderful to them. And most of us did this when we were younger. When we look back on when we were happiest with our friends, it was usually high school or college, where you just had a few people you didn’t have to manage, you know, all these far flung relationships that crisscross the country. You just focused on a few people and saw them all the time, and that was enough.

So, I think that modern friendship is about saying, This is enough. 3 to 5 wonderful people. The next outer ring is what I call the swimming pool. That’s 10 to 15 people, and those are the people you like double date with, or maybe they’re your coworkers, maybe they’re family members. So, you’re you can have a rich, fulfilling, social life, but you need a plan of Who do I actually commit to being a wonderful friend to? And that’s much more manageable than trying to keep all these plates spinning in the air. It’s just not setting you up for success.

Casey McGuire Davidson  11:41

That makes a lot of sense to me, because even as I think of my group of friends, who I’ve been friends with for 15, 20, years, you know, we call ourselves the village, meaning we always get together as a group. But within that, there’s sort of three that are the people I call when I’m upset when something big happens, you know, it filters out to the group that our next get together. But there are a couple that, you know, I go to first, and that’s, that’s beautiful.

Anna Goldfarb  12:11

I think, a lot of people are like, I want to make friends. And our phone is full of people that we love, but we never call them. We don’t ever call them. So, that’s what I wanted to explore of what’s going on here. We all have so many friends, we have so many contacts, and they’re like acquaintances, right? Yes, and we’re lonelier than ever.

I think the problem, the unique problem that we have in our generation is that we live in something that resembles a spoke structure, where we’re in the middle and we have these cohorts, these branches of friends from, you know, where we grew up, or childhood or school, or job, our second job or third job, our neighbors, and they only share common history with us, not with each other.

So, when your social network is designed like that, there are some wonderful things about it. You have unlimited flexibility.

You can befriend whoever you want. You know, you weren’t stuck in the same you know, village in the medieval English countryside like this is it. We can befriend anyone. We can befriend different genders. We can different classes, different rate, anyone we want. But that also makes friendship more precarious, because it’s easier to shed friendships. It’s easier than ever.

So yeah, you know, it’s not necessarily better or worse or I see a lot of people think like, oh, our grandparents had it easier. Ancestors had it easier. But it’s not so much easy as just tradeoffs. Well, now we can move. We don’t have to live where we grew up. We can move. We can meet different kinds of people. But there’s this different, different drawbacks too.

Casey McGuire Davidson  13:59

Yeah, and it’s hard to identify if you don’t already have those super close two to five people, or if your shared hobby is drinking and they are not, you know, good friends in other ways, meaning like you’ve stopped drinking And they kind of stop inviting you to stuff. How do you find those new ones? Because that’s sort of awkward and everybody’s busy. You don’t want to ask and not hear back. Or you know what I mean.

Anna Goldfarb  14:34

But what people misunderstand about friendship is that, I think they think affection is enough. Like, Oh, I like this person. She seems really cool. We should get lunch. And then it never happens. And that’s because affection isn’t enough. You need a reason to get together. You need to offer something that is interesting to the other person. So, what that looks like for me? Me in my life is, you know, I’m an author, I’m a journalist, I’m a writer. I reached out to other people, you know, I live in Philly, who I would reach out to someone. I actually just did this to a woman on Twitter, and I’m like, Oh, you live in Philly. I live in Philly. You work in media. I’d love to see you. I just wrote a book, and we got together for happy hour. We made it happen because I gave her a reason, like, I’m in media, you’re in media. And she told me that a lot of her friends have moved away, and she’s been having a hard time. And I said, You know what, I want to help. I think you’d really hit it off with some of my other friends. And I organized a group happy hour, and we all got together. We had a blast. And what I did was I offered her help with something that was important to her. When I heard a lot of my friends have moved away, I love to meet new people. I thought this is an opportunity for me to deepen my friendship with this new contact.

And then, the other week, I had, like, a free morning, free Saturday morning. So, I texted her, do you want to get lunch? I’m around, and it’s so we can pick up, and now we can start a friendship. It’s not complicated. It’s really about, how can I help the other person with things that are important to them? And I think people, where they go wrong in friend making is they think, Well, I want someone to go out for drinks with. I want someone to talk about whatever I want. They don’t really consider what they’re bringing to the other person’s life, how they’re expanding, how they’re helping. And that would make, that makes it much more likely for the other person to accept her invitations, if it’s clear what’s in it for them, you know.

But it’s a big shift. I used to think like, you know, why aren’t my friends reaching out to me? Or I just sort of work myself up out of nowhere. I would just decide like, Oh, I haven’t heard from this friend. Oh, she must not care. Or maybe she doesn’t, isn’t excited about me. And I just create this whole narrative. And what I’m advocating for is for people to reframe it and think, Well, what’s my friend going through? How can I help them today? I should check in for them, because I want to know how they’re doing and what I can do to help and let them know that I love them. It’s just a very different energy than what about me. Why aren’t people reaching out to me? I just, it just doesn’t go anywhere good. It just it leads to misery. It means you will be miserable. If you sit around and think, why aren’t people reaching out to me, you will feel empowered and optimistic and hopeful. If you think, how can I help make my friends lives better.

Casey McGuire Davidson  17:42

Yeah. And I think also, what’s helped, what’s what’s I found is versus this very, you know, open, like, Hey, we should get together some time, is actually putting out, like a date or plan. So when I want to do something, you know, and I know my husband or whatever isn’t going to be interested. Sometimes I buy, like, two tickets or four tickets, and then go out to a couple people and I’m like, Hey, I have tickets to this, like, Taylor Swift symphony, like strings musical thing. Does anyone want to come? And it’s not crazy spendy. It’s like, 25 bucks and, like, here’s the date. And you know, a lot, I was like, first three people who say, yes, you’re in. And if I was to only get one person, I’m like, Oh, I can eat 50 bucks on tickets.

Anna Goldfarb  18:37

That’s fine. It’s definitely a strategy for newer people. I would probably, if it were me, I’d work a little harder to be like, well, here’s why I want you there, you know, like, just, it’s not just okay, you know, I have a ticket. It’s like, I love to see you and hear about how your job’s going. Would you want to go just something a little personal, that something that’s happening in their lives?

Casey McGuire Davidson  18:54

Yes, yes.

Anna Goldfarb  19:00

That’s great. That’s my note.

Casey McGuire Davidson  19:03

No, that’s fair. I’m trying to think with my friends.

Anna Goldfarb  19:03

You know, it’s been so interesting since I’ve written this book. Like I used to have so much anxiety about friendships and guilt, like it was a heavy backpack I’d wear, and now I just feel so calm with my, I know exactly who my best friends are, my closest friends. I’ve told them that they’re my closest friends. I’ve reassured them that I’m not going anywhere for a long time, and that I love being their friend and that I love them, and it’s just been a whole different way to practice friendship. And I really hope to model for my friends. This is what friendship can feel like. Friendship can feel secure and calm and close and warm.

So, I’m just sort of riffing on but no, this knowledge is taught me and it’s been. Interesting to see how we can what, what I kind of said, what pedals we can push to get the notes that we want to come out of. You know, I want people to feel special and chosen and loved.

Casey McGuire Davidson  20:18

And those are things we can give to our friends, even if you’re reaching out because you’re lonely, or you’re, you know, transitioning from drinking buddies to not drinking buddies, the way to think about it and the way to approach it is to think about the other person and give us some reason.

Anna Goldfarb  20:37

And I’m going to go back to the example of throwing a group happy hour with my new friends, um, and, you know, again, this was a happy hour, but it could have been when we all were in media. So, it could have been lunch, or it could have been, you know, a park, coffee, hang, um, but I told my other friends, I want I think you’d really hit it off with this new woman. I really think you guys would, would get along great. And I explained what was in it for them. I think you would love to have her as a connection. She works in our field. And so, when I meet, I thought about this. If I had proposed the Hangout as, hey guys, I’ve been lonely. I want to get together with everyone. I’m sick of staying home all summer, I think people would deflate. They’d be like, Oh, well, what does that do with me? Like, just because you’re lonely and you’ve been sitting around, why should I make time to go all hang out? What I did was I pitched it as I think you would love this new person. I really think you guys would hit it off. And here’s a new friend. We can, we can, we can hang out with. And that got them excited, and we had such a great time. We made plans for a month later if we all wanted to get together again. So, that’s the key, that is, the only difference is, here’s what’s in it for you.

Casey McGuire Davidson  21:52

So, what’s in it for you. Yeah, no, no.

I remember in early sobriety, you know, like I said, that woman I texted with for the first time, she was super social, pre sobriety, and started holding these, like, dinner parties for women who weren’t drinking. Like, pretty small, but was like, I think it would be great for you guys to meet each other, for you guys to have friends who weren’t drinking. And, yeah, I mean, I had two kids. I lived in the suburb. It was a Saturday night, and I made the time to go there. I wanted to meet other sober women.

Anna Goldfarb  22:30

And what a difference. That is just the little quick explanation of, here’s what’s in it for you made you make it happen. Very cool.

Casey McGuire Davidson  22:41

Well, so that’s a good way to reach out to people you mentioned when we were talking like these should be people who you see all the time, who are in your life. What do you do if you know you’re starting from moving to a new place, or you’re getting a divorce, and you don’t know a lot of people who you’re taking from a previous life, is that where hobbies and passions and joining new things come in, bingo.

Anna Goldfarb  23:15

I was going to say Bingo. Bingo. Yes, that is the easiest entry, because, once again, friendships have to be about something outside of the two people in the friendship. That is what we learned in kindergarten. When you sit down and you say, Oh, you’re into horses. I’m into horses. What kind of horses do you like? It’s not about the friendship immediately. It’s about the interest. What are you jazzed about? A study by Jeffrey a hall, who’s a Professor of Communication at Kansas University, found that it takes about 200 hours to go from stranger to close friend, 200 hours. So, when you, so not saying you have to befriend, like be best friends with everyone you need, but it illustrates. It takes a lot of time for a friendship to develop.

So, what are you going to talk about during this time? What are you going to do during this time? If it used to be drinking and those hours flew by, you have to replace it with something else that you both are jazzed about it could be museums. It could be about, you know, travel, it can be about anything, but you have, you will have more success with your efforts if you drill down on like, What do I care about? And how can I find people who care about the same thing?

Casey McGuire Davidson  24:40

So, we can just geek out about it and starting to explore that, if you haven’t done that in the past.

Anna Goldfarb  24:46

Yeah, and you know, one of my family members, really opened my mind with this. She used to be more like solitary and into crystal. Was but then she started marathoning, and she has this whole community of runners in her town, her social life has exploded, and it’s all because she switched from doing a passion that didn’t require other people to switching to a passion that did require other people, and that naturally just widened her social circle, and that, that really blew me away. Of, yeah, you know, our if you’re if you’re passionate, I mean, this is sort of what men are dealing with, if their passions and hobbies are playing video games or just staying home, you know, doing Wordle. You don’t need a lot of people for Wordle, like you have to find things that require other people, and that’s why, you know, writing has been such a gift to me. Journalism and being an author has been such a gift because I can naturally connect with other people who care so much about what I care about, and that that’s, that’s the blueprint, that’s the way.

Casey McGuire Davidson  26:03

Yeah, I mean, I, I definitely have found, like, I have a group of friends who all quit drinking, and we all support each other. And then I have another group of friends who I’ve met through coaching, so they’re either sober coaches or life coaches. And then podcasting. I’ve got some really good friends who are podcasters and but those are sort of bigger groups. I mean, I can think of like two podcasters that are the ones that I that I text when something’s going on or something I read something that’s interesting. A question I had was, Did you do any research on introverts, like, in terms of not being energized by groups or group hobbies.

Anna Goldfarb  26:47

You know, it didn’t come up in the research I did for this book. But what I what is applicable, is the concept of renegotiating our friendships. And you could renegotiate because if you some, sometimes I’m introverted, sometimes I’m not. I feel like I don’t know, for me, it feels more it can be more variable depending on so it really is being authentic with your needs, wants and availability, and committing to being authentic to your to your Jacuzzi, friends and beyond, and if you’re an introvert, that could look like thank you for inviting me to the party. Parties aren’t really my thing, but I’d love to get coffee with you maybe a few days after to hear about it, so you can still honor your introversion, but you can be authentic and be polite and be upfront and be honest. And friends, can, you know, you can still have successful friendships?

Casey McGuire Davidson  27:46

Yeah, no, that. I can totally see that in terms of like someone gets promoted, or someone’s holding a group party for them, and then, you know, kind of saying, Okay, I can’t make that, but can I take you to lunch, uh, next week, or something like that to celebrate, boom, introversion solved.

Anna Goldfarb  28:08

Yeah, no, that’s, that’s super helpful.

Casey McGuire Davidson  28:10

So, why did you decide to write this book on friendship? Or how did you get into being the New York Times expert on friendship?

Anna Goldfarb  28:18

You know it.

How did I get started? Well, I noticed all my friendships were like wild stallions dragging me around. And I first wrote an article How to maintain friendships, when in 2017, or the smarter living section of the New York Times, and it’s so ridiculous to think of summing up an entire like relationship in 1200 words. But when I wrote this article, I met Shasta Nelson, who’s a friendship expert. She’s the OG friendship expert. She’s wonderful. And I learned from Shasta that friendships require three things, positivity, vulnerability and consistency. And that blew my mind, that I did not know that friendships could be diagnosed like, you know, a like a car having a broken blinker of, oh my gosh. I could pay attention to this one section, and, you know, I could understand why a friendships cooling like, well, what’s missing? Like, oh, the consistency. Oh, and we haven’t had much positivity. Oh, well, then there hasn’t been much chance for vulnerability. It’s like I could help diagnose things in a new, totally new way, and that just completely, like, lit the fire under me. I want to know more. I want to know more about friendships.

And I had a wonderful editor, Tim Herrera, who encouraged me to navigate all these issues about friendships. I wrote about people pleasing. I wrote about how to handle it, friendship, quiet season. The more I learned about friendships, the more questions I had.

Of you know, we, we, we pay attention to all, all these other areas of in our life are,

why are friendships struggling like, what is it about friendships that are they an anomaly, or are they is it inevitable? Like, what? Why? Why is this area struggling so much?

And I feel like I got, I have all the answers now. Now, I feel like I’ve ascended to some like, you know, I feel like I’ve really thought very deeply about it. And it’s not that friendships are this area of our life that we neglect because we’re ogres and monsters. It’s more because we become so many things to so many people as we get older. And friendships, like I said, there are those 5 reasons, and if mating isn’t one of them, if you settle down and get married, meetings off the table. Okay? There’s four left career.

Well, if you’re not in the same field as your best friend, and they can’t really help you, okay, so now we’re down to three reasons of emotional support. Okay, well, if your friend has a newborn or a baby, they may not be able to be emotional support for you. So, it’s just like, Oh, I see what’s happening here. We you know, then you’re if your friend can’t give you emotional support, then you’re down to two more of like being in a group and hobbies and passions. So, do you have hobbies and Pat? Do you share them? And then you can just kind of go through and see why some French friendships are cooling off and some aren’t.

But one of the most important things I learned is that we need to see our friends in person. We really need to make an effort to keep those friendships active.

And I learned that we have two categories of friendships.

We have active friendships, and we have Memorial friendships.

Memorial friendships have more periodic interactions, and they’re one. Memorial friendships are wonderful. They’re deep, they’re rich. It’s like, um, that great after dinner Amaro, that you savor like you have it every now and now and again. But it’s also not an active friendship.

An active friendship is someone you talk to, you know, maybe every week, you see them a few times a month. And those active friendships are what, what really give you a lot of the most health benefits. You know, they really help with your emotional well-being. They can help you practically. They can help you in all sorts of concrete ways that your far flung friends may not be in a position to do, and it’s through no fault no one’s you know, no one sets out to be a crummy friend, but they’re also limited.

Your Memorial friends may not know your day to day problems. They may not know your struggles. They may take longer to get back to you, because they have their own active friendships that they’re juggling. And this is what a modern friendships look like. This is what this is how they run.

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®.

 

The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

K

Casey McGuire Davidson  32:55

Yeah, so when friends go through tough times, or when you said, like, friendships cool off, or you haven’t seen each other for a while. What do you recommend in those situations?

Anna Goldfarb  33:12

Well, you can always say, what I’ve done, is say, Hey. Well, it depends on the friendship, but I could say, Hey, I miss you. I’d like, I’d love, to spend more time with you. What are you working on? How can I help? What can I what do you need help with right now? And I can.

I’ve also said to friends, listen, I know being a friend isn’t a priority for you right now. You just had a baby. I’m not going anywhere. Door is always open. Take as long as you need. I don’t mind. I know that you love me. I know that you’re thinking of me. I’m thinking of you too.

So, it really is, what does the situation call for? What’s my friend going through and what do they need? That’s my goal as a friend, is to meet their needs.

Um, it’s a different role. It’s a different position. You know, I’m not their significant other. I don’t share a home with them. I don’t share finances with them, but I can still love them and support them and give certainty. I was going to say uncertainty creates anxiety, and one of the best things you can do for your friendships is to give certainty to explain.

I won’t be mad if you if you can’t attend my birthday dinner, I understand you’re juggling a lot. I love you.

Like, take uncertainty away at every opportunity.

Don’t try not to leave your friend guessing.

You know, I’d love to see you for lunch, because we haven’t seen each other for a while. I’d love to hear how your kids are instead of, let’s get lunch, and you’re like, oh god, why is there trying to sell me something is something bad happened? Like, give your friends more information about how you’re thinking and feeling, and I think you’ll have more success with your friends feeling safe. Safe to engage. They’re like, nobody wants to walk into a lunch and feel ambushed with something like, Well, why did you want to get lunch? Like, well, why did you want to get dinner? What’s going on? Give your friends more information. And that shows respect. It shows that you respect that they’re busy people with full schedules and full obligations, you know, and spend one thing I advocate for is spending a bit of time to think how your message lands in your friend’s inbox, because they’re in the middle of doing all sorts. You have no idea what they’re doing, so give information, explain why you’re reaching out, explain why you want to see them, and you will have easier time with this whole friendship thing.

Casey McGuire Davidson  35:47

One question that I had when you were talking about that. It makes complete sense to me why you would offer something to them, as opposed to just, I miss you, I’m lonely. I would love to see you, especially when people have a million obligations.

What about if you have a friendship where you give, give, give, and they just take you know you’re offering something for them, but it’s not an equal exchange. And I’ve seen people get into this situation where they just start to feel resentment from their friends but don’t want to lose them at the same time.

Anna Goldfarb  36:31

Well, this touches on two hard truths of friendship.

One is that it requires maturity. You need to be mature with your friends, you need to be authentic with what you can and can’t do. And I think people fall into these people pleasing patterns because they want to. You know, they want to. Why do people fall into people pleasing patterns? There’s not really just one reason, but it’s usually because they want approval, and they want their friend’s approval. They don’t want to, you know, be difficult. They don’t want to rock the boat. But one of the biggest friends I learned, one of the biggest friendship killers, is lying, lying to your friends. Friends will not tolerate someone who lies to them. And when you people please, when you agree to do things that you truly don’t want to do, that is a form of lying.

So, when you just, in the book, I call it whole hearted friendship, and that’s this paradigm for how to have wonderful, calm, secure friendships. When you decide to people please, you are being inauthentic. So, a whole hearted friend is honest about their availability, their limits, their boundaries, and that is a gift you give to your friend because you’re being honest with them.

So, I do feel sorry for people who their friendships are out of whack. They feel like they’re doing too much for their friend, but it sounds like they have poor boundaries. But you have to kind of know before your friend asks, What am I willing to do for this person? Yeah, yeah. And you have to decide that. You have to decide what your priorities are, and that’s what I hope to give people with this paradigm of wholehearted friendship. Of these are the friends I commit to, and these are the things I will commit to. My friends. I can commit to replying to a call or text message right away. I can’t commit to, you know, going above and beyond, lending money like there’s other things that you may not be able to commit to. And I encourage people to decide that before it comes up.

Casey McGuire Davidson  38:38

So, there’s some balance between making sure that you are offering something to them and something that you know they have something in it, but not giving more or giving completely of yourself to the point where, I mean, I always think that if you are resentful, that is just a sign that a boundary needs to be placed or is being violated.

Anna Goldfarb  39:03

Yes, and then you’re not being honest with yourself, and you’re not being honest with your friend. And yeah, if you’re taking this friendship thing seriously, that is one of the best things you can do, is I will be honest and authentic about what I can and can’t do, and then your friends will feel more safe in your friendship, because they know that you’re not going to say yes to things and then resent them later, and then it’s like just a mess. I mean, it’s a poor foundation for a relationship of equals.

Casey McGuire Davidson  39:31

Yeah, absolutely.

One thing you write about, that I thought was really interesting was, trying a 14-day friendship cleanse. Can you tell us more about that, what it is and why it’s valuable?

Anna Goldfarb  39:46

Yeah, I had a lot of fun putting my 14 day friendship cleanse together. And it’s not so much that you’re, you know, scraping friends out of your life like some sort of, you know, restrictive thing. It’s more about how to come up with a plan, a strategy, and put after you read the book and you see all the science and all the research, you know exactly why I’m recommending these low lift strategies. And they’re like, just figure out who’s in your Jacuzzi. Like, then, you know, ask them for a low lift favor. Get to know the get to see your friends for all the roles that they play in their life.

I think sometimes people make the mistake of, you know, especially with when you’re transitioning from being a drinking friendship to a non-drinking friendship. Of, you know, I’d love to see you for a drink. I’d love to see you for, let’s go out for drinks. Let’s go out for and people use their friends as entertainment. Yeah, like, we should go out. We should go out. And what I’m advocating for is to look at your friend for, like, I said, all the roles that they play. And it could be more. Oh, you have to run errands. You have to go to Target. Like, I can help. Like, do you want an extra pair of hands? Oh, you have to, you know, pick up your kids from school.

Well, I can help, like, make some snacks, you know, thinking of other ways to help your friend with all the other things that they do for other people. And you know, that’s called social identity support. And what that looks like is to ask your friend about their traditions and say, you want to be a part of it. You want to try some of the foods that they eat growing up. You want to see what their, you want to be a part of their holidays. You want to see them for them. And those are all things you can do without drinking. You know, to take an interest in someone. To say, I want to get to know you, for you. That is just such a beautiful gift. You don’t have to use your friends for entertainment. I know that’s very the Vogue, like the thing to do, but there are other ways to connect with friends that have nothing to do with Let’s go out. Let’s go out. Let’s go out.

Casey McGuire Davidson  41:57

Yeah, I know that one of the things I had to do. And again, these were friendships that were more about emotional support and sort of long standing conversations that had been vulnerable and helpful and all that. But instead of going to drinks or going to dinner, it was way more helpful for me to suggest things or ask. Like, Oh, can we do like, a walk together, or go to brunch or go to yoga? And you know what you mentioned was, like, making it easy for them, or make, you know, offering to go to their neighborhood and meet them there, versus, hey, come over to me in my neighborhood and do XYZ when I know it’s a big commute.

Anna Goldfarb  42:43

Yeah, it’s really just being a wonderful teammate to your friend. And that is what’s so special about the friendship relationship, and I think it’s why I’m obsessed with it, because it’s such a different kind of relationship than all the other ones that we get to enjoy.

You know, the power dynamics are so different. With a friend, you’re an equal footing. And my message is to be mindful of that equal footing to be a wonderful teammate. A lot of where things go wrong, or people, you know, try to dominate their friend with, you should do this. You should go there. You should do this. And friends are coiled from that. They don’t want a friend acting like they know their life better than they do. So, we can help. We can say, hey, feel free to disregard anything I’m about to say, you know your life better than me. I’m just here to help you, um, you know, and let your friend like, let their shoulders relax. I’m here for you. I’m here to help, and they will be more likely to keep you around. They will. They will want the friend who’s no drama, who gets them, who sees them for all the all the roles that they play in their life. It’s going to feel wonderful. It’s going to feel so validating, and your friends are going to feel seen.

Casey McGuire Davidson  44:04

I remember when you’re saying that one of the friends I made in sobriety, who was not, I didn’t hang out with her when she was drinking, but she also was not sober, is we had kids who were similar age, eight years old, who were friends, and she was much more on top of sort of planning summer camps than I was, and she offered to share her spreadsheet of what she was doing for her son and how she was signing him up and different things. And sort of gave me that structure, and I was so thrilled, and we got to carpool and just help each other out with it, but it also did make me feel much more close to her, and talking to her about things I was going through with my son and what was difficult, because we were both working moms. We didn’t work together, but that was that was a friendship that I really valued.

Anna Goldfarb  44:59

Oh, did you tell her? Oh, yeah, yeah, oh.

Casey McGuire Davidson  45:02

And so, we started hanging out a lot more, whereas before we really hadn’t.

Anna Goldfarb  45:08

That’s beautiful. See, like, you know all this, you know, no, but I just buried in here.

Casey McGuire Davidson  45:16

And yeah, but I, I’ve never thought about it in that way. I mean, it helps to envision, like, Okay, why did that friendship form? As opposed to just because it was more than sitting together at soccer practice. You know, I sit at soccer practice with lots of moms I talked to.

Anna Goldfarb  45:36

You know, she offered to help with something that was compelling to you, and that’s literally the magic sauce that’s the secret is, how can I help? Oh, this is important to you. I care about it too, and I do that with my friends, kids of but their friends’ kids, birthdays in my calendar. That’s all part of the diligence of making sure that my friend feels just seen and loved and supported, and I can do that. We can give that to our friends. We can do this.

Casey McGuire Davidson  46:08

And so that’s part of that smaller group, right? Because you can’t do that with everyone. 50 Best Facebook friends? Yeah.

Anna Goldfarb  46:17

No, it’s like the three to five Jacuzzi friends I have. Then I go, I go, balls to the wall, Casey, like I’m just I love them. I tell them, I care about them. I take note of their important dates, and that’s it. You just need a few. You just need a few.

Casey McGuire Davidson  46:39

So, how do you identify who those people are?

Anna Goldfarb  46:44

Well, I That’s a great question. I have a whole series of questions in the books, in the book to help people drill down on who those people are that play these roles for them. And you know, who do you get? Who could give you a hug when you’ve had a long day? Who do you get financial advice from? Who do you share good news with? And what’s interesting is, when you go through and fill out those names of who are these people like closest in your life that you share your life with, it will change.

Friendships are fluid. So, if you go back in 6 months or 6 years, you’re going to notice that those names have changed. And I think that’s something people don’t expect. But it’s like friendships are fluid. Friendships are, it is okay for them to wax and wane. Some children, kids, my nieces and nephews might make their names on that list. Like, it’s always surprising where friendship comes. Oh, actually, my mother-in-law, her name would be like people that you may not think, Oh, these are the people I should be paying attention to. So, I can help you discern it’s like, who plays these roles for you.

And I spent a whole chapter talking about Tom Rath and his book Vital Roles, and he identifies the 8 vital roles that our friends play for us. And that explains why some Friendship Breakups hurt so brutally. Some we shed friendships all the time. It’s not always a painful thing. It’s just sort of how life goes but for the Friendship Breakups, where it is painful, it’s usually because that person played a really important role for you. So, you can check out my book for more information about these roles.

You can check out Tom Rath book called, Vital Roles, and that really helped me wrap my head around what our social circles should be looking like, because it’s not just one person. We need a constellation of people, and they all do different things for us. And that’s beautiful. The same friend is not going to celebrate your work accomplishments. And you know, be, it’s like, it’s very rare for one person to do all these things, like, yeah, you will be able to identify, oh, that’s what our friendships about.

Our friendship, you know, my friend, my good friend, Ali. We’re champions. We get excited about each other’s work and our friendship is work based, and it’s okay. It’s like, oh, okay, I get it. But if one of us leaves the work field, we’d have to renegotiate our friendship because, well, what’s our friendship about now, if it’s not work so it can help you just depersonalize friendship in a way that might be interesting or new. Of oh, well, the it’s about the friendships. The about the friendship is the byproduct of caring about this thing.

Casey McGuire Davidson  49:42

Know that I like that. You have those questions. Because for a lot of people, you would just sit there and be like, Okay, who are my 3 to 5 people? But without going deeper than that, it could be like, well, I like this person, and she’s fun, and I see her a lot. I’m going to make her one of my people. Mm. Um, so kind of going deeper to that with who has the potential to be kind of this role in your life?

Anna Goldfarb  50:09

Yes, and you could see what roles you play for other people. Like, why do people want me as their friend? I don’t think a lot of friendship books have even asked that question. I think, it’s sort of like dining of, well, what, what restaurants do you want to eat at? You’re never thinking like, well, what restaurants want to have me go to be a patron? That’s like, a whole different question. But with friendship, it’s like, Well, why would people want me as a friend? What am I bringing to the table? And that was very humbling to see. You know, I’m not designed to be best friends to every person I’ve ever met. Like that’s, yeah, that’s not realistic. That’s not how any of this works. But for the friends that I am lucky enough and honored enough that they keep me around, I understand more about why. What do I do for them? What role do I play for them, too?

Casey McGuire Davidson  51:00

That’s very cool. Question for you. You talk about a couple things in the book that I think are really interesting. You talk about friendship fails and cringe worthy clinginess, but and also like new ways to break the ice that might be unconventional. Can you touch on a couple of those? Because I think they’re really interesting.

Anna Goldfarb  51:21

Oh my gosh. Friendship fails. Friendship fails. I’m honestly keep trying to think what I wrote.

Casey McGuire Davidson  51:31

Okay, you were able to talking about, like the funniest ones that were like you, what you learned from them?

Anna Goldfarb  51:37

Well, friendship fails. I learned, too. A lot of my problems were coming from a place of thinking, why isn’t my friend doing more for me? Okay, that’s basically the underlying mistake I made, and things changed when I changed the script to, what can I do to help my friends? But friendship fails like I’ve been so self-centered, I’ve monopolized my friend’s time talking their ear off about things they didn’t care about, exes that wronged me like I just dominated. I really took them for granted because I thought, well, that’s what a friend is. A friend just is there for you unconditionally, and that wasn’t fair to them. Like, I really didn’t think, well, why wouldn’t they want to hear me rant endlessly.

Casey McGuire Davidson  52:29

So, there’s really more of an equal give and take or thinking about what they’re interested in, versus, yes, I just want them.

Anna Goldfarb  52:37

Or I was so selfish. I was. I didn’t think I was selfish, but I realized the result of these friendships buckling was because of my deficiencies. I didn’t know how to support someone, I didn’t know how to really listen, I didn’t know how to give great emotional support, and that’s one of the biggest reasons people have friendships, yeah.

So, if I’m not giving good emotional support, if I’m like, oh, it’s probably fine. No need to worry. I’m not upset. So, why are you upset? Like, that kind of approach, um, trying to talk people out of the hurt that they’re feeling. It’s, oh well, you know, it could be worse. Like, I did everything wrong about offering support, which is why I was, I threw myself into reporting about it, because I was so eager to learn this knowledge of, oh my God, I’ve been doing it all wrong. I say the wrong thing all the time.

Casey McGuire Davidson  53:36

Well, I think everybody does that. If you’re not thinking about it in this way, right? You’re like, hey, that person is supposed to be my friend because we’ve known each other a long time, or we talk often, and just kind of think they should be there for you, yeah?

Anna Goldfarb  53:56

Like, without question. I’m like, You’re my best friend. I didn’t have any strategy for how to be a good friend. I just figured, like you’re in, it’s almost like a, I was going to say, a cult, like you’re in this cult. I’m not agreeing to you leaving like you’re my friend forever. And I have all these friends from all different parts of my life, and I just constantly felt like a failure, like I was letting everyone down.

You know, if I didn’t wish a friend Happy Birthday, are they mad at me? Like, I would just lot of real estate in my brain was taken up with these issues, and it’s like that infomercial, there has to be a better way, like, there has to be a better way to have friendships and to have wonderful friendships at where we are in life, and part of the reason is we don’t have great models for friendship. Like, I don’t have great models for how to offer emotional support. Um, you know, I’m trying to think TV and movies like, you know, you think your friends are going to be together for. 20 years, getting brunch every Sunday. It’s like, that’s not realistic.

Casey McGuire Davidson  55:06

You know, this year and things, pets get sick.

Anna Goldfarb  55:12

Yeah. People move like, there’s all sorts of things that don’t look like how TV and movie promised us it would look. And that was very painful to realize, of No, I’m not on a sitcom where everyone just stays put.

Casey McGuire Davidson  55:28

When I think the idea that you should have many, many, many friends, right? If you don’t have a huge circle, then you won’t be happy. And what I hear you saying is that a smaller group of deeper friendships is actually more important.

Anna Goldfarb  55:45

It’s absolutely more important. And you know it can be painful looking online or on social media, and you see these groups of friends all posing. It’s like, well, no one’s ever asked me to pose on a beach, 15 women. Um, there’s such comparison like that’s been painful too. That’s an interesting element that other generations didn’t necessarily have. I mean, they didn’t, weren’t comparing their friends.

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:15

I think when you stop drinking, if you see people going to events that you used to go to that either you opted out of, you know, hey, wine tasting weekend or night at the bar, girls weekend away, where, you know, there’s a ton of drinking sip and see, see the pictures. And if you weren’t invited, you’re really hurt. And if you were invited, but you chose not to go, you get this, you know, fear of missing out, that they’re all getting closer, and so, yeah, that’s really difficult to deal with.

Anna Goldfarb  56:47

It sucks, like it just, it totally sucks. And the more I’ve learned about friendship, the more naturally I’ve backed off from social media, because it’s not real life. This isn’t how your social life is supposed to look. You know, social media flattens our social circles into just a feed, and that it scrambles our brain. It scrambles our perception of what friendship should look like. And I know what it should look like. It should look like in person, Hangouts a few times a month with a few set of people, and that social media is just, it’s just a mirage. Not into it, not into it. Casey, nice.

Casey McGuire Davidson  57:28

Well, what about you did talk about, like, friendship, clinginess and how to dial it back? Tell me a little bit about that.

Anna Goldfarb  57:37

You know, it’s going to happen. You know, one of the biggest questions I asked, I get asked, is, how do you get rid of a friend?

Casey McGuire Davidson  57:47

Basically, like, really, tell me.

Anna Goldfarb  57:49

Tell me. Why? Um, I think people. And James Richardson wrote a great book about individualism called, Our Worst Strength, and he talks about this a bit, a bit in his book that you know, friendships are now more about entertainment and friends.

Oh, friendship, it used to be about the freedom of wanting to befriend whoever we wanted to, but now we want the freedom to step back from any friendship that we want to they used to be like, I want to be friends with this guy, I want to be friends with this woman, and now it’s, I want all these people to leave me alone. So, it’s interesting, the freedom is sort of flipped, um, I think we aren’t socialized for how to let down a friend or to turn down a friendship at all like we have so many scripts for romantic breakups, we know exactly what that sounds like. It’s not you, it’s me. We want different things, but part of the ambiguity of friendship, we don’t have formal rituals where their friendships are formed, so to dissolve them feels really confusing, because we never had a talk. Most of us have never had a talk. Of you know, where we negotiate the terms of the friendship like we do with a romantic relationship? Yeah, so to disentangle ourselves feels really strange, because we don’t know what our friend’s thinking.

Casey McGuire Davidson  59:26

We haven’t talked about it. Probably, of well, you’re my friend. It’s like, well, I don’t really see you like that. As opposed to just like, sort of ghosting them or replying less often or turning down invitations.

Anna Goldfarb  59:32

All you can do is be polite and just say that’s not my thing. You know, thanks for the invite, but that’s not my thing. And just, I mean, that’s really the what we’re not groomed to do, but that’s really what our tools are, is declining. No. Thank you. No. Thank you. No. Thank you. I mean, if it gets more than that, you might have to use your words and be mature and say, you know, I appreciate you reaching out, but this isn’t a friendship. I mean, even just saying it’s hard, even saying it out loud, is like I’m dying inside of.

I spent a lot of my book is how to keep friendships, not how to get rid of them. So maybe the next book will be more about how to scurry away from friendships you don’t want, but my hope is that people will recognize the signs if a friend, if a friendship isn’t active, if that what is the about of our friendship? Let’s go back. Is it clear and compelling? It’s clearly not compelling to the other person, because they’re saying no to things. Let’s take this information and then either renegotiate or, you know, keep it moving.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:44

Yeah, you know, it’s on somewhere else.

Anna Goldfarb  1:00:47

It’s on us to interpret the tea leaves. And that sucks, but that’s part of modern life, is that we can ghost one another. We can retreat. We can withdraw. And what do we do with these silences? And one of my tips is to make silences mean something to say, if I don’t hear from you by noon, I’ll assume it’s a pass. You know, we don’t have to be held hostage by people’s tendency to ghost or not reply. You can tell them. This is what I’ll do with your silence. And just keep it moving. But hopefully my book will help people diagnose what’s going wrong, so at least they’ll be more empowered to not waste, to not that spin their wheels on a friendship that isn’t reciprocal.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:01:36

Yeah. Well, I think your book is great in terms of, like, helping people figure out who their friends could be and how to deepen them and get closer to the people that they think would be valuable friendships. And I mean, I think that’s really important, right? Because so many of us are like, well, I texted this big group and like, no one got together. So, you know, or no one responded, or no one said yes, and then you’ve got these hurt feelings, like nobody cares about me.

Anna Goldfarb  1:02:14

And I’d be like, let’s look at this invitation. Was like, how, how compelling was this invitation? Come sit with me. Let’s take a look yeah, because when you lay it out, people tend to say yes. People tend to say yes.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:28

Yeah. And I think for people listening to this, you may consider like stopping drinking as a negative, but that absolutely is something that is a shared interest in belonging to a group. And I mean, I personally made more strong friendships in my first year of quitting drinking than I had in the previous three years of just casually getting together with big groups to drink or bunch of couples together, because I needed that support and I needed to connect with people, and they needed that at the exact same time.

Anna Goldfarb  1:03:10

Oh, I love that. I love that you could give, give that to one another. I love that it’s beautiful.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:03:14

Yeah, thank you. Well, so where can people find your book? Follow up with you. Follow your work and the writing you do.

Anna Goldfarb  1:03:22

Oh my gosh, you could find modern friendship anywhere books are sold. If you’re curious about any of this, any of what we talked about, I encourage you to check it out. I really think it’ll help clear up a lot, a lot of what’s probably going on in your life.

You can find me @AnnaGoldfarb on Instagram, and I have a Substack. AnnaGoldfarbsubstack.com where I talk about all things friendship. It’s called, Friendship Explained, it’s really fun. I have a lot of fun over there and reach out if you’re interested in friendships, if you have question, let me know. Maybe I can answer my newsletter.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:04:06

That’s awesome, because I think a lot of people feel very lonely, even though they’re surrounded, and you know, whether on social media or by they’re busy. They’re going to soccer practice, they’re seeing people around their kids schools or around the office, and yet they feel incredibly lonely, and, you know, aren’t sure how to actually connect with people on a deeper level.

Anna Goldfarb  1:04:29

Yeah, it’s pick a few amazing people that you share values with and care about what they care about. That’s the shorthand care.

Care about what they care about, and they’ll be more likely to keep you around.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:04:42

Awesome. That’s super helpful. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Anna Goldfarb  1:04:47

Thanks for having me. This is great.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Hello Someday podcast.

If you’re interested in learning more about me, the work I do, and access free resources and guides to help you build a life you love without alcohol. Please visit hellosomedaycoaching.com. And I would be so grateful if you would take a few minutes to rate and review this podcast so that more women can find it. And join the conversation about drinking less and living more.