SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, drink, craving, alcohol, discomfort, feel, moment, creating, sober, life, breath, sobriety, practice, minutes, yoga, talking, important, breathe, happening, dopamine

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Mary Tilson

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a buzz, how to sit with your emotions when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

 

Hi there. Today we’re talking about tools to overcome alcohol cravings, how to create the pause between impulse and response, how to manage discomfort and find ease and discomfort when you want to drink, and to get through that without starting over. 

 

My guest today is Mary Tilson. She’s a professional recovery coach, a yoga and meditation teacher and the founder of Sun & Moon Sober Living. Mary’s been in recovery since 2013. Prior to getting sober, Mary was the epitome of a high functioning alcoholic and addict. She worked at a corporate career in digital advertising in Chicago, while internally battling an addiction to alcohol, cocaine and Adderall. After completing outpatient treatment at Hazleton, she began studying yoga and meditation to become a teacher. And Mary would later launch a retreat business that took her across the world, from Southeast Asia to Central America to Africa. 

 

Mary’s passionate about ending the stigma of addiction and sharing a holistic path to sober living. She offers group and one on one coaching, free guided meditation meetings for sobriety and hosts the Sun & Moon Sober Living Podcast. So Mary, welcome.

 

02:51

Thank you so much for having me. It’s so nice to connect with you again.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  02:55

I know, it’s great. And when we chatted earlier, we talked about how you can help our listeners find tools to overcome alcohol cravings, because I know when you’re just starting out when you’re getting four days, five days, seven days, the desire to drink is really strong. And it does get easier, later gets a lot easier. But that initial discomfort is something that can trip a lot of women up and causes them to just keep repeating that drinking cycle of saying they’re going to stop and then going back to it.

 

03:37

Yes, absolutely. And I’m so familiar with that vicious cycle and that feeling of being like on autopilot, because, you know, we tell ourselves, we’re gonna stop drinking, and then all of a sudden, we’re in the same cycle of drinking again. And it’s extremely painful. It’s extremely confusing, especially, you know, I know a lot of your listeners are also very high functioning, and they’re busy. And it’s like we can get all other areas of our life under control, so why can’t we get the cravings under control? And one of the things that I find to be so incredibly beneficial when it comes to managing cravings is mindfulness. And having a practice of mindfulness because, you know, in that cycle, there is the impulse, the craving, and then there is the action, the actual drinking. And I really love to train people and I’ll give one tool in particular, which I find to be really useful, is the RAIN meditation. Tara Brach teaches that often, I see you nodding. Are you familiar with that?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  04:44

I am familiar with it. But I’m, you know, it’s been a long time, so I’m excited to learn about it again.

 

04:51

Yeah, I think it’s a really great way for listeners just to consider how we can invite a little bit of curiosity into our experience of craving, hang on, and start to create more spaciousness when we have cravings between that feeling arising and actually acting on it. And so Tara Brach teaches this, I know Dr. Judson Brewer, who’s a neuroscientist, who teaches a lot, he wrote a book called The Craving Mind she references a lot. But RAIN is an acronym that stands for Recognize, Allow, Investigate and Nurture. And so that first step of just recognizing that you’re having the craving is huge in itself, especially when we’re used to being in that cycle, when drinking is our default as a response to stress to notice that you have the craving to drink is huge.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  05:42

Well, so question for you. I mean, I feel like a lot of people I know, I did, you know, were pretty aware that there was a craving to drink. I mean, you know, when you start rationalizing at 4pm, like, actually, it’s not a big deal. I can go, you know, get a drink, I can go out, buy a bottle of wine, or, you know, you’re really irritated that you’re not drinking, like, you’re just like, Oh, my God, this fucking sucks. So, do people have trouble recognizing that they’re having a craving? And what might they mistake that for?

 

06:23

That is such a good question. And because you’re right, I mean, we know that we want to drink in that moment. But that’s where the step of investigation and curiosity becomes super important. So once we recognize that the craving is there, and we’re just allowing ourselves to be in the experience for even a moment and not acting on it, then we get to this step of investigation and getting really curious. 

 

And I’ll give an example from my own life, which is probably relevant to listeners of I used to be so stressed at the end of a really long workday. I worked absurd hours when I was in digital advertising, sitting in my cubicle under artificial lights, with so many different things to do, so many things happening simultaneously. And by the time I got home, I was just like, I need a drink. That’s all I care about. And I’m gonna drink because this is unbearable, and I was so stressed and burnt out by that point. 

 

But if you take a moment to actually get really curious about that experience, like is what I’m really craving alcohol in that moment? Is that really what I need? And the truth is no, because the reason that I was craving alcohol was I was looking for relief for what was actually burnout. I was completely lacking rest in those moments. I was overstressed, I was not getting the same emotional connection to my friends and family because I wasn’t making the same time for them anymore with this job. I was feeling undervalued and underappreciated at work. There were all these other factors that were actually creating that feeling of what I was interpreting as a craving for alcohol that I needed to drink. 

 

And so the more you practice mindfulness, and the more you train yourself to create this sense of spaciousness, I love that idea of the sacred pause, to actually have that conversation with yourself and get really curious about what’s going on. That’s when you learn to be able to really meet your needs for what they really are. Because then, I mean, alcohol was never going to be the solution when I was super stressed. To drink alcohol, as you know, it’s like pouring gasoline on that it makes you more stressed when you’re doing it, right.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  08:33

Because right, it, you know, it’s almost like you mistake the craving, or the anxiety that you think alcohol soothes, because you’re in withdrawal, and it’s creating that anxiety. And then it does kind of suit that anxiety in that you stopping and withdrawal. But you, you’re so used to living that way. You don’t realize that the substance is causing the symptoms that you’re experiencing that you think the substance kind of helps you resolve. 

 

One of the things I mean, I love this step investigate, because when women talk to me, and they’re like, I really want to drink, you know, sort of the first thing I always tell them, It’s like eat something like hunger is yes, trigger blood sugar dropping like just especially if women are like, trying to diet because they don’t like the way they look because they’ve been drinking, right? So then they don’t eat too then it’s really hard to overcome cravings. 

 

But the second thing is like why, why do you want to drink? And a lot of women have never stopped to say, Well, my husband’s pissing me off or my kids are screaming because they’re toddlers or my commute was an hour and a half or I’m completely overwhelmed at work and they use alcohol, because it’s like, the easy button to literally shut down your brain, you know?

 

10:09

Yes. And I will acknowledge that in the moment, there is a relief there, you know, it’s gonna, it’s, it will give you that instant feeling of relief, and whatever you’re trying to get out of it, it’s just that we, we choose in that moment to go to that quick relief from the stress or whatever it is, and we pay the long term consequence in a big way. 

 

Yeah, and even I mean, when I think back at that example, from work, even going deeper than that, like, I think I was lacking a real sense of purpose. In that job, like, I don’t feel like I was fully aligned with what filled me up, which is something that’s really important in my life now. And I was numbing out from that completely, because I was never taking the time to get quiet with myself and really listened to that. And so we can underestimate, because we continue to function highly at work, and nothing, nothing huge has happened yet. But we can underestimate just how much we really do miss out on by just being in that place of having numbing being our constant way. 

 

I basically, I mean, and also I remember going to work and being totally overwhelmed and you know, combination of too much work plus anxiety plus impostor syndrome, plus you name it, you know, fear based stuff, and then coming home, and literally, when I drink a bottle of wine, once I looked back on it, rationally, I was like, so basically, I was running, running, running, and the minute I got home, I was trying to knock myself unconscious, to not live my life. And then you’re like, Yeah, my life feels completely unfulfilling, and why aren’t I happy? And it’s like, yeah. And so I talk to a lot of women, they’re like, it feels like it’s just too much. And I’m often like, it is too much. Like any human being shouldn’t be taking on this much, so many women do. And so it also is boundary work. You know what I mean? Once you investigate to be like, Wow, this is too much.

 

12:16

Well, that’s exactly the thing, right? Because if we recognize the reason that I’m drinking is because I have all this stress at work that’s become unmanageable that with this schedule, I can no longer prioritize the relationships that really fill me up and the other aspects of my life, that means you need to have some uncomfortable conversations. And, you know, we’ve spoken about, like, this topic of leaning into discomfort, but it really does mean that you need to no longer just kind of take the easy way out and you know, numb out with alcohol. 

 

And I think sometimes we trick ourselves into believing when we’re constantly succumbing to these cravings, and we’re giving into the alcohol and we’re drinking that, you know, I know, I used to tell myself, like, Oh, I’m just doing whatever I want. Like, I felt like I was so free in my partying days, you know, I was just like, oh, I don’t care. Like I don’t mind that I’m going out, getting drunk drunk, blacking out, whatever. But the truth is, I was the farthest thing from free in those moments, like I was an absolute slave to my cravings. And that is a painful experience to be in, you know, because I think deep down, we all know, like, we all know, even if we think we’re making a conscious choice, oh, I’m just gonna have the glass of wine. I don’t care. It’s not that big of a deal. I think we all know what it feels like, deep down to be a slave to our cravings and it’s not comfortable.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  13:42

And leaning into discomfort there, there are sort of a couple different aspects of it, right. One is the discomfort of going through the cravings. The other one is the discomfort of not people pleasing, of setting down boundaries or having people not be completely happy with you and sort of the fear that’s on the other side. So I know that the RAIN method too, is also sometimes useful, even in like, big board meetings, or big meetings where you’re like having that anxiety, panic, like, you know, oh, my God, all that kind of stuff, right? Because it’s something that you can do in a way that nobody notices right? As opposed to going and doing yoga or like physically meditating in a way, you know what I mean?

 

14:34

Oh, absolutely. And that’s such a good lead into the last letter, which is nurture, the way Tara Brach teaches that. Some people teach it as notes but I love that, I love the word nurture because it’s that element of compassion, and being so compassionate for ourselves. And I always encourage people like when you’re having these experiences, especially when it comes to boundaries and people pleasing and you’re criticizing and getting down on yourself, take a moment to pause and listen to those thoughts and listen to yourself as if you were listening to a friend you know, and really sitting with someone that you love and you care about and ask yourself, Is this how I would hold space for this person? Well, I tell them to shut up and just get over it. And, like, of course, not all your shit. It’s unbelievable. 

 

I mean, it’s, it brings up a lot for people I know when we get into the topic of like, the self compassion piece, because when you frame it like that, it brings up a lot. And I know that that’s what drives a lot of us to drink in the first place is that critical voice and the beating ourselves up and, you know, just finding an escape from that. So to really cultivate compassion for yourself, and I love you know, this, this idea by Kristin Neff that there’s two forms of self compassion, there’s tender self compassion, where we’re really holding that tender loving space for ourself. But there’s also fear, self compassion, which is more action oriented. So things like you mentioned, like, establishing boundaries with our, our work, you know, communicating our needs to people and, and, and really loving and looking after ourselves in that way. And being willing to say, like, No, I can’t take on any more commitments right now. This is going to take me way beyond my edge.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  16:20

Yeah. So recognize, investigate? What’s the A? Acknowledge, Recognize, Allow?

 

16:27

Allow.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  16:30

Allow? Yeah, we’re gonna pretend that I didn’t know how to spell, right.

 

16:36

I do actually know how to spell. It’s always easier when the letters are right in front of you.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  16:40

I know. Right? Okay. Recognize, Allow, Investigate and Nurture. Nurture, nurture.

 

16:48

Yeah, so I think you know, and I always tell people when it comes to mindfulness based practices, and you can work through that practice, in a meditation on your mat, as you said, you can also do it in the moment, which I love. But something that’s so important when it comes to these practices like mindfulness, and really, so many forms of self care is that it’s not what you use, like, in the heat of the moment necessarily to put out fires, they’re actually practices that you cultivate over time. So it becomes more like your default setting. So you have already cultivated this sense of spaciousness. So when you do feel, you know that craving arises, you’re able to create more space between impulse and action and interrupt those normal patterns.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  17:32

Yeah, well, so I know a lot of women when they are craving, drinking, when they’re, you know, like, Screw it, I’m gonna stop at the store, or there’s a bottle in my house. And, you know, I just want to take a drink, or I’m out to dinner with girlfriends. And you know, in the first 20 minutes, you order a non-alcoholic cocktail. And then once you’re surrounded by other people drinking, it’s like, Oh, forget it, I’m just going to order something. How does this, you know, sitting with this comfort, building up the discomfort tolerance, doing the RAIN method, like how does that work? In the moment when it’s so easy to get into the impulse?

 

18:20

Yeah, that’s a really good question. And I think whenever it comes to those scenarios, like say, it’s the scenario where, you know, you end up just picking up the bottle on the way home to work anyway. Usually, it’s not really just what’s happening in that moment. It’s everything that led up to that moment, you know, and that’s why, like learning to actually get to know yourself better through mindfulness practices, understand your nervous system, and have these tools for self regulation is so, so important. 

 

And so like, for example, I always encourage people to establish a morning routine, where they’re really taking time to check in with themselves. I’m a really big fan of yoga, it’s part of my daily practice. But there’s so many different forms of somatic embodied practices that you can do to really connect with yourself. But that kind of acts like those early, those first moments of the day. It’s not only a way to set yourself up in a more calm and grounded place, but it’s a way to really check in with yourself.

And notice, like if you pick up first thing in the morning, that you’re waking up with that little buzz of anxiety, and you can really feel it in your body and you know how to like communicate with your nervous system on that level, you can feel there’s a difference in your breath. There’s more tension in your body, and you have the tools in order to move some of that through you. Whether it’s through, whether it’s you know, by getting on the stationary bike, if it’s the middle of winter, and you have been in your house or going out for a walk doing your yoga practice, like whatever your things are.

And you can learn to work with that versus what so many people do, which is rollover or dive headfirst into their phone, emails, notifications, have a cup of coffee, cups of coffee, like push through the work day, and just let that build and build and build. Then usually that’s been the build up, that leads to the breaking point where all of a sudden you’re at the liquor store, and it’s like, how did I end up buying this bottle of wine? Well, you’re completely dysregulated. And you don’t have that access to your conscious decision making, not in the same way anyway, as if you had taken the time to really, yeah, look after yourself a little better throughout the day.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, the sobriety starter kit.

 

The sobriety starter kit is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

Casey McGuire Davidson  20:30

I mean, I used to wake up with that, like buzzing anxiety, that buzzing overwhelm. And it comes back at different points at like, difficult. Typically, it’s work stuff that tends to put me into complete overwhelm. I’m much better at setting boundaries and letting stuff go, and sort of lowering the bar at home. And, but I used to have a lot of trouble with work boundaries. And so I was not a yoga girl, I always wanted to be, but I was never, or like a sitting meditator, right. I have trouble kind of just sitting still for too long, even though I know it’s something I should practice. But when you were mentioning that I was like, Okay, I do have a couple practices. That helped me in, sort of, a different way. 

 

So I, you know, thinking back, I used to roll over, especially when I was feeling super overwhelmed. And I would do a quick like body scan and schedule a scan, and be like, Okay, what do I need to do to take care of myself today? And it would depend on like, am I lonely? Am I anxious? Do I need to burn off some anxiety by working out? Do I need to ask for help? And also, you know, the schedule scan is like, Alright, I’ve got this, this and this, and this, but I can carve out half an hour here. And I can call my best friend on the drive home, or I can order takeout and not cook dinner. And so that helped me. 

 

The other thing that helped me was I would set my alarm, and like block off my calendar at work at like two o’clock every day, for even 30 minutes an hour if I could get it and I would go for a walk outside and put my earbuds in and just you know, it helped me decompress so that I wasn’t working from the minute I got there to the minute I left and have like no time to sort of bring myself down. 

 

22:42

And I think that is so incredibly important. Like I think so often people do say things like, Oh, I’m not like a workout person or I’m not this and it feels so overwhelming when it’s like how I can’t get to a workout class or a yoga class and carve out an hour and a half or two hours. Run. Yeah, put so much pressure on ourselves to do at least I know, I don’t know if you had this experience. But I remember all that I first got sober is like, No, I can’t just get sober. Now I need to be like the epitome of wellness and have like, you know, the perfect clean diet. Yeah. And it’s like no, actually, I mean, there are little things you can do. Like focus on deepening your breath. Such simple breathing exercises, like I love teaching people, this three part breath, which is so simple. It’s just sending your breath all the way into your lower belly, the barrel of the ribcage up into your chest, and then just exhaling and letting it breathe out like a wave. And just doing that a few times. It can take two minutes.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  23:47

Alright, so teach us how to do that. Like I’m pretty basic, like you breathe in through your nose, you let your belly expand, do you breathe out through your mouth? Like how do you, physically?

 

23:58

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So what I love to do, so if you’re sitting upright in a chair, or you know, wherever you are, I also love to just use your hands and just place your right hand over your heart and just let your left hand rest over your navel. And just making that contact with your physical body can be so grounding and just that really nice reminder to really just tune in to your physical body. And then if you’re comfortable and you haven’t already, you can just start to close down your eyes. And just take a moment to really ground the energy through the base of your spine. So you can feel your sit bones start to anchor down into the chair or whatever is supporting you. 

 

And before you even do the practice, just notice as you breathe in through your nose where your breath inflates first. So if you do happen to feel more agitated and stressed in the moment, you might notice that your breath starts to feel more trapped up in your chest. And without putting any extra strain as you inhale, just start to invite your breath to descend deeper into your lower belly. So just taking that full belly breath and just seeing what that feels like. And then follow the exhale all the way out through your nose. And notice the grounding and softening quality of the exhale, you might relax your shoulders down your back. 

 

And you can continue this process of just working with that deep belly breath. Or if you have a little bit more space, you might start to work with that three part breath where you inhale through your lower belly. And then feel the ribs start to expand. And then breathing all the way up into the chest, feeling the breath, lift through your palm resting on your heart. And then just exhaling in a very natural way, releasing the brass and releasing any tension you might be holding on to. So you can repeat that process a few times. But you can just start to notice. Do you feel any difference in your body? Just taking that?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  26:12

Yeah, I told him when you were saying notice where the breath is, it was totally up high. And I mean, honestly, I feel very relaxed now. Which is good. People listening can’t tell. But we were both like with our breathing, Wow, the most relaxing podcast I’ve done. 

 

26:33

Yeah, I could just do that the whole time. But no, it’s, you know, the noticing where our breath falls is so important because that was something that was really amazing to me in learning about this idea of befriending our nervous system. And I wish that that was an education that we all got in school. I think that so many of the issues that children are faced with in school would be resolved if we learned how to work with our breath, for example, because, yeah, what happens is when you know, we live in a world now where we’re constantly being stimulated, and you could be sitting in front of your computer desk, because I used to be in my office and get an email that activates your stress response. And we tend to associate that as just like a mental stressor. You know, my boss emailed me something late, whatever it is, we think about that as a very, like something that’s happening in our brain. But the reality is, there’s a whole physiological response that starts to happen, our breath gets shallow, our heartbeats faster, you know, our muscles start to contract. And we’ve seen, you know, it’s been very, very well studied that this, these prolonged states of stress, even if they don’t start as a physical stressor, have huge implications for our health over time. And so knowing that and having those skills, something as simple as you know, that three part breath. There are other breathing practices that you can do that are just simply extending your exhale longer than the inhale. I mean, there’s so many of them, but doing these simple practices, you can prevent some serious issues later on. I mean, addiction being one of them, of course.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  28:11

Yeah, I think that’s interesting. I love that you said that. It’s not just mental, it’s physical in the way you react to it. Because I remember, you know, back in the day after the election, I had all of my alerts on so I would get breaking news alerts from the New York Times and CNN and all the others, NPR, whatever. And it would be pinging me and I would have this, like, stress reaction constantly. And I finally turned all of those off. I was like, I do not need to know in the braking moment what is happening. And it’s the same with email. I mean, you know, I had to stop checking my email every single evening, and tell my boss on evenings and weekends, like, if it’s really urgent, please text me. Because I’m trying not to pick up my phone in my email every time I stand up from the dinner table, or every time I’m walking my daughter up to that because it was just, I constantly felt that physical reaction to it like that trigger.

 

29:26

Yes. And that takes a lot of awareness that you’ve noticed it like happening in your body, because I think that we take that for granted sometimes. But it goes back to the boundaries conversation, because, unfortunately, also, I mean, what amazes me is the way that all of these apps, social media being just one of them, but also the news apps now, like those they have literally employed the top psychiatrists to make those addictive. And part of the reason that it works is that it floods us with stress hormones, like it creates this addictive response in the same way that drugs do. 

 

And so having healthy boundaries with those things, you know, like, I’m someone who I was just reading an article yesterday actually on LinkedIn that was talking about how it was studying the health effects of observing all of these traumatic events in the news, and just how that can be harmful over time. And I’m someone who really believes in staying informed, I think it’s important, like definitely not turning a blind eye to what’s happening in the world. But recognizing that now, because we’re so hyper connected, and you could be standing in the grocery store line waiting to checkout and in that brief moment, see something super traumatic that you weren’t ready for, and not even realize how much it’s impacting your system and how dysregulated that can be, is really potentially harmful, you know. So it’s, it would be much better to be in a position where you’ve set aside that time that you’re going to read the news and take that in, in the same way that we set aside time for work. And then we know that we have our self care practices, so we can bring ourselves back and do what we need to do. So we can calm down and regulate our system again.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  31:07

I completely agree with that. Because so much of the news is trying to do the like, play by play like a football game or baseball game of everything that happens. And so I found TV really hard. TV news as well. And so now I just read it. And I read it from a pretty neutral source that digests it in terms of like, yes, this happened, but what are the odds that it’s going to lead to x, you know, and just kind of be like, Okay, this, this isn’t something that I need to deal with right now. Or it is, but it’s from a neutral place. So I can sort of be like, Alright, I’m not going into overdrive from this while still staying informed. And, you know, not that this is all about the news. It’s also short social media, and who you follow and how alarmist they tend to be. But it is like, taking care of yourself first, and noticing what really stresses you out, because we have enough stress in our lives that we don’t need to purposefully trigger ourselves by what we opt into.

 

32:24

Yeah, 100%. And I think, you know, that idea, like bringing back the idea of curiosity and noticing, like really taking a moment to notice how you feel on all different levels when you are exposed to that kind of thing. And when you’re reading the news, or when you see certain things on social media, because going back to that whole idea of like, you know, what is it that makes you give in to that craving in the moment, when you’re sitting with a group of people and you go from mocktail to cocktail, or you end up picking the bottle of alcohol up at the end of the night? Oftentimes, it’s the things that we really take for granted. It’s like, oh, yeah, I know, I know, the news isn’t good to take in too much of but I’m not really taking it seriously for what could potentially lead that, lead to down the road.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  33:09

Oh, my gosh, and I, even my husband and I have like, beyond different tastes in what is entertainment. But he, I swear to God, like every zombie movie of the end of the world, or the apocalypse, or like, whatever. And the books about like, populations have been wiped out and survival things. That’s what he likes, what, he is completely doomsday, end of days, you know, just, this is going to lead to the breakdown in the supply chain, or whatever it is. And in my free time, you know, I have the media tastes of like a 16 year old girl, you know, like, I like the romance stories, or just the interesting things that I read, basically, you know, there’s chick flicks. Right. And so, the funny thing is that, you know, I feel like I’ve got a much more optimistic view of life. And that might be, you know, nature and nurture. But I do not focus on all the worst case scenarios, you know.

 

34:19

Oh, absolutely. And I think I mean, there’s so much truth to that, like, our brains are being shaped so much by these like external impressions, the things that we choose to take in and I think we take that for granted sometimes, like, that’s a big part of the work that I like to do with people when it comes to changing up their relationship with alcohol. It’s like, let’s take an honest look at all of these subtle and more obvious messages that you’re getting about alcohol and where it’s being normalized. And yeah, like I love how you’re like feeding your sense of imagination and all of that. It’s like it really is, like I think it’s important to almost look at it like another form of nutrition, you know, how are we feeding our mind? Are we? Are we putting a bunch of like, you know, processed foods and like all these things that we know aren’t good for us? Are we like, really nourishing our mind in a positive way? Yeah, absolutely.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  35:11

And it’s hard to have a really positive and calm outlook if you are sort of doing fear based media inputs, or really pessimistic people you surround yourself with or messages. I mean, I know that that’s different than sort of tools to overcome alcohol cravings. But I do also know that you’re more prepared to overcome alcohol cravings if you aren’t too high or too low, like if you sort of stay away, especially in the beginning, from overwhelm, resentment, anxiety, you know, or depression, loneliness, all that kind of stuff. And I know that some of that is hard to do. But other parts of it are actually choices we’re making, you know, that we can control especially in those, you know, really hard for 30 days, you know.

 

36:13

Yeah, definitely. And I think there is some overlap too, like with the kind of like media conversation that we were having. I think a lot of times people tend to obsess over the negativity, like our brain has that natural negativity bias. So we tend to focus on the really scary problematic, what we deem problematic sides of giving up alcohol and the bad things and the scary things. But if we can shift our attention towards cultivating more positivity, and that does go to creating really healthy boundaries around our environments, like maybe not putting ourselves in the situation where we’re with a whole bunch of friends that are out getting drinks, you know, even if we do have the mocktail solution like that can be great over time. 

 

Like right now, I, you know, I love going to weddings, I don’t care if alcohol is everywhere, I’ll have my mocktail, I really don’t think twice about it. My first weeks, months, even first year in sobriety, I was like an open wound in that situation, it was like the worst thing ever. So we have to like, really give ourselves the opportunity to have healthy boundaries in place. So we can create more positive experiences around sobriety, build up that sort of like muscle of confidence about our sobriety. And then once we feel more strong and resilient, we can go into those other 10 years.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  37:27

Past the, like physical craving stage of it, where, like you said, you are an open wound. But for so many reasons. I mean, I know, I pretty much didn’t go out to dinner for my first 30 days, which I quit in February in March. It wasn’t the hardest thing to do. But at the same time, you know, if I was meeting a girlfriend, we would meet for breakfast or lunch, we would go on a walk together, I did morning workout classes. And then on my, you know, weekends, I would go to either the gym and sort of sit in the steam room or the hot tub or whatever. And then I would get like the chocolate peanut butter banana smoothie. So that like sweet protein tastes great thing that’ll fill you up. You know, it is possible to be social without putting yourself in those situations that are difficult. And then also by like going to the gym and not forcing myself to be like, Oh my God, I’ve got to, you know, run five miles right now and just being like, you know what, I’m gonna sit in the hot tub for 20 minutes. I mean, that regulates your nervous system as well.

 

38:44

Yes, I 100% agree. Because the thing is, like, even if you could go back to the old drinking situations that you used to do and get through it, you’re kind of reinforcing if you have an idea that like, Oh, I’m an outsider now because I don’t drink like by putting yourself in that situation, you’re potentially reinforcing a fear thought that’s not necessarily based on truth. Whereas, you know, if you put yourself in situations like I love hearing about how people like discovered new art classes that they like going to or a fitness class, you know, Pilates dance, like doing all these different activities, that actually creates so many positive associations around sobriety, like that’s definitely been my experience where it leaves you being like, oh my gosh, I would have missed out on this entire part of my life had I not walked away from the drinking situation.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  39:36

You know, that blew my mind. And I was, you know, in super early sobriety, and someone invited me, actually to a 12 step meeting way across Seattle. I’d never been before. Didn’t end up being my path. I didn’t, I didn’t do 12 step but I remember driving across the bridge from my area to see, which is gorgeous. And it was in the summer. And it was like 7am. Whether it was needing a meeting or something, I don’t know, we went out to breakfast afterwards. But there were so many people running on the bridge, biking on the bridge, out and about at this gorgeous morning. And, you know, I was used to on a Saturday or Sunday morning rolling over hungover being like, Fuck, I was gonna go to 10am yoga, canceling because I didn’t feel good. And I was like, oh my god, do these people do this every day. It was like this entire universe of like, healthy happy people that I was like, you know, it was just kind of amazing. And, and that’s part of it, too. When you stop drinking, it’s a great time to get curious and, like what you actually have been missing out on.

 

40:54

100%. And the interesting thing is, I think a lot of people drink because of burnout, feeling like they’re stressed and they have no time. And then it’s like you eliminate alcohol from your life. And suddenly, like you said, I remember I got in this habit of going to this Saturday morning yoga class with this amazing teacher in Chicago when I first got sober, and I would go early in the morning, and I would do the yard bike to this yoga class. And then I’d meet my friend and we’d go to the farmers market.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  41:22

Markets are the best. 

 

41:26

Yes, it was like this amazing routine. And by 10am, I would just be feeling absolutely amazing. Like I’d have this community yoga class, he always had all these really insightful things to say, then it’d be like having an amazing meal at the farmers market. At the end of my addiction, I would be laying in bed so uncomfortable on the weekends until like past noon, you know, like, I would open my eyes and be like, ah, you know, because it was an accumulation of just not sleeping throughout the week and the work. And it’s just, it’s amazing to me, because it got to a point very quickly, honestly, where I was like, I wouldn’t give up the Saturday mornings for anything, you know, and suddenly, it didn’t really matter, like not staying out late anymore. I used to have so much FOMO about not staying out really late or missing a night out. And then it was like, I guard my early nights now, I guard. So I’m so protective of them. Because I love the mornings like nothing is more beautiful than waking up energized in the morning and being able to get outside and move.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:32

Yeah, and I know for me, and I don’t know about anyone else, but I actually really, I mean, I’m a pretty social person. And so I need that human connection, even if seriously, I like to go places, you know, because I work from home, and just be around people, even if I’m not with them. Like I’ll go out to lunch and just look at people, listen to their conversations. Not everyone is into that. But like you did yoga, I did a morning workout group like Monday, Wednesday, Saturday, Sunday. And that was so helpful, and then getting coffee with people afterwards. And you’re sort of shifting some of your social group. So you see that not everyone drinks. You know, people who get up super early. Like it was a 5:30 class on Monday, Wednesday, don’t tend to drink a bottle of wine tonight. I mean, I was brutally hungover and it was no good and like canceled a lot.

 

43:32

Yeah. And that’s so interesting. You mentioned that because with the group classes thing, something that was really interesting to me when I got sober is I always thought of myself as someone who is really extroverted and outgoing and loved being around people all the time. And without alcohol and drugs feeling that I realized that I didn’t, that wasn’t really my natural predisposition. And I actually needed more time to spend on my own. But I could get that same like feeling of like filling up on social connection through workout classes. And there’s this amazing book called Joy of Movement by Kelly. I don’t wanna get her name wrong, but the book is Joy of Movement. And she talks about this experience of collective joy that happens in fitness classes and how we can get these benefits of social connection by moving and breathing with people. And that was something that was so positive for me because a huge, huge thing for me, which prolonged me getting sober for years, like from the first time I went to outpatient treatment. It wasn’t until three years later that I actually got sober. And that was because this fear of isolation, and it’s something that I find to be a really interesting topic because I think a lot of us, because of the way alcohol has been so deeply ingrained and all of these social situations, our craving mind can trick us into thinking you’re going to be alone, you know, you’re not that. 

 

Yeah. 

 

And it’s like, it goes down to something very deep because we’re like hardwired for connection as humans, like we crave that, we need that, we like survive on that. So, too, you know, even if you are someone who feels like you’re newly sober, and you don’t have the same energy to put yourself in, like going and meeting all these new people and sober situations, just go to a workout class, just be in that energy, even going to meetings, where and there’s so many different types of meetings, you mentioned, the 12 steps, but there’s all different types. You don’t even have to participate if you don’t feel but just to be in that space of connection and shared experiences is so so important.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  45:36

One other thing that is interesting, too, and I know everyone’s different in their level of comfort, or what sort of touch they like, but I also found it was really helpful for that sensory piece. Like there was a woman who came to our office who gave like chair massages twice a week, and I loved her. And she would give you, put on your essential oils, like I always have lavender and just kind of give you massage. But I found just the act of having someone like, touch you in a nurturing way that wasn’t my children and wasn’t leading to sex with my husband, which felt very much like I was being taken care of. And I needed that.

 

46:24

Yes, yes, I completely agree. I mean, that’s, it’s interesting, because when I’ve lived in Southeast Asia for a while, and I feel like in the States, why no, because it’s very different, like the price point is way different. And it’s much more seen as like a luxury like, I didn’t, I never grew up getting massages and things like that. But there’s so many practices like on that, you know, side of the world, and it’s much more common as a self care practice to have massage and touch. And it definitely I completely agree. It’s a very nurturing way to feel connected to other people. And yeah, going back to the nervous system conversation, like, there are different ways to kind of like co-regulate with safe people also, and just have, you know, through things like touchpad sample, and you can get that as well.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  47:10

And like a manicure or pedicure, like sometimes they massage your hands or your feet or whatever it is. I just think that, I mean, in my morning workout classes, they used to give us at the end like this essential oil, sort of infused, not towel, but something and you know, we’re like, put essential oils on your forehead just with their thumb. And it was so lovely. And so the reason I think we’re talking about this is the idea of overcoming cravings and sitting with discomfort, but also giving your nervous system and your body a chance to not get to the point where you’re at the breaking point. 

 

48:03

Yes, absolutely. And you know, it’s interesting that comes up when you say that, what the discomfort thing is, I think for some people, discomfort leaning into discomfort is giving themselves permission to rest. Like it’s incredibly uncomfortable for somebody who is in that like workaholic mentality who, you know, feels like they’ve never done enough. And the job is never done, to actually let go and to rest. And to give yourself a Sunday, for example, where you just do nothing, or to surrender. 

 

I remember when I was first, when I first got certified to teach yoga in Chicago, it always amazed me because even you know at this, in that studio setting, you have a very confined amount of time to get through the class, you’re never supposed to go one minute over. And my savasana was very short, that resting pose at the very end of the practice. And it always blew my mind that people would get up before it was literally two minutes of just lying down. And it’s such an important part of the practice to absolutely be at the end of the yoga practice, and people would get up and they would leave to start showering for work. And I’m like, how could you possibly tell me that those two minutes are essential for you to get to work on time, but there’s this unwillingness to just rush and let go. 

 

And so, you know, there are so many amazing ways to strengthen, like lean into discomfort by creating healthy stressors for our body, like through exercise, you know, I’ve been really into cold exposure lately. I could name a whole bunch of them. But it’s also important not to trick ourselves into thinking like we always need to be like pushing and grinding. Especially if our comfort is being in that space of over exerting and pushing ourselves too far and work work work. Sometimes the discomfort is being like I’m gonna let myself rest just because that’s what humans need to do. 

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  49:55

Yeah, well and not only that, I think part of that is like internal boundary. It’s like, forcing yourself to be uncomfortable with not doing everything or not. I mean, people kind of feel like, oh my god, I have to stay on top of work, because otherwise, it’ll be too stressful for me not to. And so they want to. I mean, this is me, I’ll speak for myself, I used to go to my boss and be like, Oh, my God, I’m totally overwhelmed. I’m stressed out, I can’t do all of this. And I would want her to set the boundary for me, I would want her to tell me, okay, take this off your list, don’t do that. And the truth is, I needed to be strong enough to set those boundaries for myself. 

 

And, and part of that, too, is in terms of like for, I mean, Gretchen Rubin has this book called The Four Tendencies and sort of this framework, you know, and there are different ways that people act now. I’m a people pleaser, and, and so that one was about being more likely to keep commitments to others than to keep commitments to yourself. So for me, I actually found it was really helpful in the beginning to actually schedule things for myself that then I needed to attend, like, meeting friends to work out or signing up for a class and actually connecting with the instructors. So I would feel bad if I didn’t go or signing up for this massage, because I was like, forcing myself to block the calendar. Because if I didn’t go, it would not be fair to hurt me, because someone else could have taken that spot. And so like this external pleaser, you know, you kind of have to know yourself in a way to set yourself up for success in taking care of your body and your mind is stopped drinking.

 

52:00

That 100%. And I think there’s such a huge overlap between people pleasers and people who struggle with alcohol because like, oh, yeah, alcohol becomes an easy way to cope with which is just like, impossible for anyone to sustain, always putting other people. And I think also, there’s a mindset shift around that where we can’t really show up for other people when we’re completely depleted and not looking after ourselves. And so I had a really interesting conversation with a woman who, Dr. Sandra Dalton Smith, who talks about the seven types of rests that we all need. And her perspective was really interesting, because well, some of these rests, for example, are like, mental rest, social rest, emotional rest, but things like creating boundaries, like mental rest, not taking too much time in front of the screen or doing all, you know, work related activities, whatever it is, but I loved her approach. You know, she’s a very, she’s a businesswoman. And she does a lot of corporate consulting. And she’s saying, you know, corporations too, need to understand that if you have burnt out employees, that’s not going to improve the final output of what you’re, you’re trying to do, you know, so everyone individually looking after themselves, creating their own boundaries, respecting other people’s boundaries, like it’s beneficial to everyone, because, yeah, you know, everybody knows what it’s like to be around like the people pleaser, who’s just so filled with resentment. It’s like, seeping out of their pores. You know what I mean? 

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  53:30

Like, yeah, a pleasant one. The other thing one of my clients at one point said to me, because she was working really, really hard, and I was like, you have to, you have to scale it down, you have to have boundaries, you have to stop working, even if it is to go for a walk or watch a bad TV show, or whatever it is. And, you know, because she was pushing herself so hard and didn’t have those internal reserves she ended up, you know, drinking. And what she told me afterwards, as we were sort of deconstructing what happened, she was like, Well, if I drink, and then I’m drunk, then I can’t work. So it was almost a strategy to stop working in her mind. And, you know, in my mind, drinking was a way to like, either push through working at night, or to shut off my mind from worrying about stuff, which was also in my mind a strategy. You know what I mean? Like, when I was younger, when I was 22, I used to like, drink and then be super hungover even before business trips and big presentations. And weirdly, I was like, well, if I’m so hungover, I’m trying not to puke, therefore, I can’t be nervous. I mean, it’s so crazy the way our mind works, but that’s just setting a boundary and then being uncomfortable with it. It’s like working a muscle. The more you do it, the easier it becomes. Because you see the world doesn’t end. But we have such a tendency to self sabotage, instead of doing something that makes us uncomfortable.

 

55:12

Absolutely. And it all goes back really to that first conversation about like learning to be with discomfort. And, you know, I’ve heard many people say now that like, we have an addiction to confront in our society. And there was a time that this tendency that we have to avoid pain and run for pleasure was really serving us, but it’s just now it is so destructive. And yeah, any opportunity that we can find, I think also reframing it. 

 

Yeah.

 

In our mind, any opportunity that we can find to really lean into discomfort, and then celebrate ourselves for making that choice. Whether that’s saying, I’m going to walk instead of drive, I’m going to do the workout in the morning. And seeing that as a positive thing and not as discomfort as being a bad thing is so beneficial. Like I love to just now it’s like proactively seeking those little things, those opportunities that I can exercise that muscle of discomfort, and you know, taking the moment, they say one of the most important things for behavior change is that moment of celebration. So really taking the time to acknowledge yourself and say, I, I made the healthy dinner instead of going to take, going to do take out I got myself to that workout class and celebrating yourself and like celebrating discomfort as a positive thing, and not a bad thing is huge.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:31

Yes. And you know what’s interesting, we were talking about this right before we hopped on here, but the Huberman Lab, the Huberman podcast, posted something yesterday, and if anyone hasn’t listened to the Huberman Lab podcast on alcohol and what it does to your body in your brain, that is amazing. And you absolutely should. But he posted something about a podcast he’s doing on managing your dopamine. And said addiction is a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure. Happiness is a progressive expansion of the things that bring you pleasure. The former emerges passively, the latter takes work. This is the part I love. As a general rule, beware of anything that delivers high dopamine, with minimal effort, enjoy the little things in life, of course, but keep the amount of dopamine scaled with the degree of effort to get it. And I feel like that fits into what we’re talking about. Because obviously, alcohol, cocaine, Adderall, they spike your dopamine really high, with very little effort. And it does take more effort to go for a walk to breathe, to do yoga to take breaks. But that is what is going to bring you true happiness, not this short term high that results in a low.

 

58:13

Yes, I love him so much. And I just love how I feel like the whole server community whenever you put something out like that everybody’s getting so excited. But it was such a good example. And he also gave this great graphic that gave a direct comparison for the way different things affect your dopamine. And I’ve mentioned to you that recently, I’ve gotten really into ice baths and cold.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  58:36

Tell me about that. Yeah, it sounds by the way, horrible. To see, oh, my God, my husband, me and my son. We like a hot box, like in my office when I’m not on podcasts, like, I crank the heat to like 80 degrees. So cold bath. Wow.

 

58:55

Well, the funny thing about that coming from me is I’ve literally left Chicago to live in a tropical climate for the last eight or more years. And even as the seasons have started to change, I’ve said, Oh my gosh, now I moved back to Colorado. And I said to my sister, like, I’m starting to get really cold. I don’t know if I can live here. And she’s like, What are you talking about? You’re always promoting ice baths. And I don’t understand.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  59:17

So I’m not so ad hoc about ice baths. Not going to try it. But maybe you’ll convince me.

 

59:23

Yeah, so basically, what’s really interesting about it, and I kind of, I had a cold plunge in my gym, and I was living in Bali. And I pretty much picked up naturally on the mental health benefits because of this topic that we have been speaking about. Like it was kind of just something I made sense of, from my experience with meditation. I hadn’t really learned about the science of it before, but I felt that by getting in that ice bath and training myself to feel the urge to jump out, but learn to drop into that deep belly breath and calm my nervous system, that there was a real building of real resilience and power. 

 

And it wasn’t until I moved back to Colorado just recently in July that I found this Wim Hof and Wim Hof breathwork and cold exposure trainer that was doing a workshop and I got to get really deep into the science of it. And it’s absolutely incredible. Because ice baths when you get in the cold water, and you stay in for I think it’s a couple of minutes minimum, your dopamine levels spike up to 2.5 times the baseline of dopamine. But the big difference is, and coming from somebody who used to love anything that would lift me up like Adderall, cocaine, I like I was all about the uppers. So the big difference, though, is that when you get that dopamine boost from drugs, for example, there is a serious come down and crash that you really have to pay the price for on the other side. Whereas when you use these more natural forms of dopamine, it’s more sustained, and you don’t get that crash, it carries out for a longer period of time. 

 

And so I’m just and you can of course, do that by taking a cold shower in the morning. And I always recommend for people if it’s totally new to you to find an instructor who’s hosting workshops, because first of all, it’s a commute, it can be very fun to do in community, it’s a great sober way to meet people. There’s these communities I’ve now seen happening all over the place. But I’m amazed by all of these natural tools that we have, like our own inner resources within our body, whether it’s there are certain breathing practices that you can do, just like we used a breathing exercise to calm down earlier, there’s breath work that you can do to boost your energy, like having a cup of coffee, you know, you can go out and go hiking and get that energy boost. So I think, again, like exactly that quote just sums it up so perfectly by Huberman talking about not going for those things that are just going to give you the instant relief, or the instant boost. But if you can, if you can consciously move towards the things that are a little more uncomfortable, like being in the cold shower, or the ice bath, you know, I know that’s not for everyone, but hey.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:09

I’m gonna have to trust you on that one. And maybe someday I’ll try it, but not right this moment. That sounds terrible to me. But I’ve heard and I think Kuperman are also talks about doing the cold exposure and stuff like that. So I believe you and not for me right now.

 

1:02:33

I get that reaction a lot from people. I’m like, Okay, I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna pressure you into it. Because like, there are certain things that are just like, Nope, I think I’ll pass on that one, so that’s okay.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:43

And the cool thing that we’re talking about is that there are so many tools. And I think that if one of these doesn’t resonate with you, find another one because it is, there are a lot of tools to get through alcohol cravings, but a lot of it is you are going to have to sit with discomfort at some point. And the more you do that, the stronger you’ll be. I mean, I remember being on day 16 of not drinking, which I think is often sort of the breaking point like the, you know, just the end of my willpower kind of thing. And, you know, not relying on willpower, relying on self care helps so much. But that day, I just left work Friday, all the triggers, my boss, you know, time of day, day of week, you name it, I so wanted to drink. I was like shaking. I was. I cried. I was like pissed. And I had just talked to my coach that morning and told her I was fine. So I was like, dammit, I cannot write her tomorrow and tell her I drank. 

 

And so I had to get through that discomfort. And I do remember crying and talking to my eight year old when I picked him up at after school care and be like, obviously, I wasn’t like, oh my god, I desperately want to drink. I was like, I just don’t feel good. I feel like crying. I don’t this, you know, I just, I don’t feel good. And he was like, Mom, do you just want to sit on the couch and cuddle? And yes, oh my I want to sit on the couch and cuddle and that’s what we did. And I just told my husband I was like, I am having a really hard day. And so we just ordered pizza, we sat on the couch, we cuddled. I was like can you put him to bed?’ I went to bed super early, woke up the next morning, went for a run and I was better. Like that was the worst day that I’d gotten through. I haven’t had a day worse than that or craving worse than that ever. But I didn’t drink night and that, it’s like, whatever you have to do to get through that discomfort, but also take care of yourself.

 

1:05:06

Yes, I love that story so much. And also what an amazing example for your son to, to see that like because discomfort and difficult emotions are part of the human experience. And to see that your response isn’t like, Oh, I’m having a bad day. This is bad, therefore, I’m going to drown it out and be over here drinking all night.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:05:26

I did before, that was my jam. Like, but yeah, it was good. And it was kind of nice. Yeah. So nice. Because now he’s 14 now and like six foot and I’m just like, kids, like, literally, I bribe him to get cuddles now, because he is so sweet. He’s like a golden retriever. But I’ll be like, you can go out to the, you can go to the grocery store. We can like cuddle for five minutes. I’ll be like, Okay, wow. Oh, yay.

 

1:05:56

Oh, that’s so nice. I love that. That is the key to managing cravings, cuddles.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:06:03

To bribe, whoever will. Pets, pets are great, too. They really help.

 

1:06:12

Yeah, I mean, in all seriousness, though, like, having meaningful social connections is super helpful, you know, and not trying to isolate through those experiences and just get through it on your own.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:06:24

And you can get that in a bunch of different ways. Even if you don’t have a partner, a spouse, a kid or a pet, like you can find that, you know, through just acts of self care, you know, through having kind, loving restorative touch, or smells or anything like that, you know,

 

1:06:47

Absolutely. Acts of service too. I mean, interestingly, like, some people might not think of that as discomfort. But obviously, it’s easier to sit on the couch than to go volunteer and do something for someone else. But we derive so much meaning and purpose from doing that. And the social connection piece, there’s so many benefits. And it’s so interesting to me the way that service oriented work shows up in so many different healing paths dating back to like, you know, ancient yoga, the path of yoga, you know, has that written within and it’s, you know, of course, part of the 12 step model and so many other recovery models. So, yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:07:24

I love that. Well. So I think you’ve given us some really, really great tips in terms of how to overcome cravings to drink, in terms of creating that pause between impulse and response, managing discomfort, building up your discomfort, tolerance. Anything we didn’t cover that you want to touch on or suggest?

 

1:07:52

I would say the biggest thing, if you are navigating early sobriety, or you’re even in that internal debate, I mean, creating the space to just be curious and creating spaciousness in general, as we talked about, through mindfulness practices, just noticing if you are, if your day is just filled with so many stressors, so much external noise, to me having these moments of mindfulness, whether that’s creating a morning routine for yourself, inserting, you know, moments to go outside in nature. And the biggest thing is just these tiny habits, keep it super tiny, easy, don’t put so much pressure on yourself. 

 

Oftentimes, when I share, you know, the work, the tips that actually work with people, it sounds too simple to be possible. But that’s really what it comes down to. And when you do notice yourself, you’re in the middle of a stressful workday, and you notice that you’ve actually made space to take two minutes of really conscious breathing or you’ve given yourself the space to go out for a 10 minute walk, celebrate it because celebration, focusing on positive reinforcement, all of that is so so important to behavior change and, and also just living a joyful life. 

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:09:14

As a people pleaser, and a perfectionist and multitasker, I mean, I know it helped me to like get a routine, keep it not overwhelming, but like schedule it in. So whether it’s blocking your work calendar for 30 minutes or setting an alarm on your phone, or forcing yourself to stop and breathe even though you feel like you don’t have any time, like give it a try for a while because it does take time to build new habits. And if you are a I want to cross things off my list like my husband and I every weekend, I mean we have two kids like, make a list of all the things, you know? Soccer, got a birthday party, he has a baseball game, whatever, I literally put on the list in addition to like, laundry and whatever, like nap, or walk, like I, so I can cross it out and be like, Dude, I got a nap this week on the list, otherwise, I don’t cross it off. Like, that’s bad.

 

1:10:21

Yeah, exactly. And all of that is worth celebrating and remembering to, if you ever fall into the trap of trying to do it on your own or feeling isolated, lean into the supportive community. I know I touched on the idea of social connection. But it is so easy to fall into the trap of thinking, especially if we built our lives around alcohol, that we’re alone in this and that just could not be farther from the truth. And we are so lucky to be, you know, here in a time where through technology, there are support groups for absolutely every form of addictive behavior, every form of mental health struggle, and so lean into that, because it’s, it’s, you know, social pressure.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:11:04

And, I mean, I love the book, Atomic Habits, I’m a huge fan of doing that. And one of the big things that he talks about is changing your fiscal environment. And that first step, get rid of all the alcohol in your house. And sort of, you know, if you’re going to do yoga or workout, like put out your clothes early, and again, not advocating anyone go on a diet or anything like that, just advocating, like, pick one or two things that supports decompression, and movement and taking care of your body and actually schedule it. 

 

But also he talks about your social environment. And especially, I wouldn’t say especially like no matter what you want to join a community where the behavior that you want to add your life is the one that celebrates it. So if you hang out with a big drinking community, or you hang out with people who are workaholics, join a group, online in person, whatever, that does yoga or meditation. I joined a running group and I was not a runner. And just, oh, you know, my morning workout group, like, people who I was working out with, despite the fact I was 40 pounds overweight, and on day four of no alcohol based started being like, Oh, we’re all going to do this 5k together, do you want to join? And I would do it. That is very different than my drinking friends who I’m still friends with who’d be like, Dude, we’re going to happy hour on Thursday, you know?

 

1:12:39

Yeah, totally. And it just normalizes that. That’s such a good point. Because you can find groups of people which are really important, too, that are based on sober lifestyle, living alcohol free addiction recovery. And there’s also so many groups of people out there who, because of reasons like that they prioritize their health because they’re a runners group or whatever other reason, drinking is just not normal for them. So putting yourself in positions where not the whole world isn’t revolved around drinking is also really, really supportive and beneficial to your sobriety because it rewires this thinking of like, I’m an outsider because I don’t drink to being like, wow, this is a really empowered lifestyle choice. This is something that people decide to do as a positive thing. 

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:13:28

They may drink, but their life is not around that, you know, it’s just different. It’s more so I know you have a community too. So will you tell us about the work you do? How you support women and living alcohol free? And where to find you?

 

1:13:48

Yes, absolutely. So Sun & Moon Sober Living is the name of the community. And you know, I have a website that’s SunandMoonSoberLiving.com with resources and a podcast. And right now I have a guide, an eight week guided group program called the Holistic Sober Living Course. And so it is an online course. We have a different module every week that covers various topics. And then we meet once a week live on a Zoom call. And we have a private Whatsapp group so we can support each other throughout the week. And you know, kind of like we were saying, like a lot of the people we just met on Sunday morning, and most of the people in the group outside of that group meeting a lot of their life is very normalized, built around alcohol because that’s just what they’ve always known. So I love that opportunity to just come together and really connect and share our experiences and process. So that’s my main course program. And then I also periodically offer these free online meetings that include guided meditation and breath work and training people how to incorporate those skills and again, just sharing. I really am all about just creating a community you piece to end the stigma, have more open conversations and just remind people that they’re not alone in this.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:15:06

Yeah. And it’s so important. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on. And I think this is going to help a lot of people figure out different ways to get through those alcohol cravings and get through discomfort because it’s hard to do.

 

1:15:23

It is, yeah, but there are tools available. It’s really just putting these tools into practice. But thank you so much for the conversation. I feel like we could just talk forever about this, but it was so nice to chat again.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:15:36

Absolutely.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:15:40