SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking, alcohol, feel, learning, brain, helping, thought, pleasure, problem, happen, wine, understand, life, listening, habit, question, reward, pleasurable

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Rachel Hart

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there. If you’re listening to this podcast, I’m betting you’ve been going back and forth for a while now on whether or not you should stop drinking. And I want you to raise your hand. If you’ve had any one of these thoughts.

You might have been thinking, I’m not that bad. I actually don’t want to stop drinking completely. I just want to drink like a normal person. Or maybe you come home after work. And you think I know I shouldn’t drink tonight. But I literally can’t relax or have fun without it. It’s really common to say I’ve tried to take a break from drinking before. But it’s just too hard. I always give up anyway. So what’s the point in trying again? Or here’s one I hear all the time from women. Everyone I know drinks. If I stopped drinking, I will be bored. Or I’ll be boring. I’ll have no fun. I’ll never be invited anywhere. I’ll just sit home and be miserable. Or maybe you can insert whatever your reason is there.

So is your hand up? If it is that is totally okay. And that’s because taking a break from drinking and changing your relationship with alcohol. This shit is hard.

And that’s why I’m really pumped to invite you to my completely free 60 minute masterclass the 5 Secrets to Successfully Take a Break from Drinking, even if you’ve tried and you failed in the past.

After you take this free class, you’ll realize why what you’ve been doing up until now hasn’t been working, and what to do.

Instead, we’re going to cover all the juicy topics, including what questions you need to stop asking yourself, because they’re setting you up for self sabotage, not for success. We’re going to talk about exactly what you need to do differently. So you can stop the exhausting cycle of stopping drinking and then saying screw it, and starting again.

And we’re going to talk about the real reasons you haven’t been successful. And I’m betting they’re not what you think they are. And this isn’t surface level stuff. I am handing over the strategies and the mindset shifts I go through every day with my private coaching clients. If you’re listening to this podcast, I really encourage you to take a moment and sign up for this completely free masterclass. It will help you on your journey to drink class and live more to feeling better. So if you want to save your spot, go to hellosomedaycoaching.com/class while the class is still available, and I really hope to see you there.

Hi, everyone. I am really excited for this episode because I invited Rachel Hart on the program to talk about taking a break from drinking and she is someone who I’ve followed for many years in the sobriety space. She’s a master certified coach. She’s founder and CEO of Take a Break from Drinking and has helped 1000s of women reexamine their relationship with alcohol so they can unlock their potential. She has a wonderful podcast that comes out every week. It’s called Take a Break from Drinking. And she has a book which is called Why Can’t I Drink Like Everyone Else? that I spent the entire weekend reading again, and then underlying all the different parts of it, because so much of it resonated with me. So Rachel, thank you so much for being here.

05:17

Yeah, thank you for having me. Yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson  05:19

And one of the things I love that you talk about in your work is sort of the think, feel act cycle, which I’m hoping you’ll explain to everyone. But to get started, I know that, you know, when you were questioning your drinking some parts of sort of the common framework, or traditional models didn’t resonate with you. So can you tell us a little bit about that?

05:43

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that was most frustrating for me is that, you know, I knew sometimes that I really didn’t like my drinking, but I also knew that it didn’t always look the same. Like it was kind of unpredictable. And that was so frustrating for me, because I wouldn’t really understand like, well, why sometimes? Do I call it quits and go home? Right? And why sometimes do I end up at the falafel cart at 2am? Just like, what happened to this night? Like, it really felt like there was no kind of like, rhyme or reason to it sometimes.

And, and I think that was, you know, partially where I got kind of like, frustrated with the kind of traditional frameworks that were out there, it felt like, okay, it doesn’t really feel like I’m powerless. Because if I was powerless, like am I only sometimes powerless like is my brain only sometimes missing that off switch, like, I couldn’t really make sense of that. I also really didn’t, I didn’t connect at all with the idea of it being like something that was like a character defect or moral failing, or something that I had to make amends for, I felt like very resistant for that.

But I also, I really struggled because I think most people are taught, and most of our conversations, you know, in society, are these very neat and tidy categories of, you know, either you’re normal drinker, and you’re able to, you know, handle alcohol, or you’re an alcoholic. And there’s something about your brain that alcohol makes you powerless. And I spent so many years feeling like, okay, like, I feel like I don’t fit in anywhere. So like, where do I belong? What is out there for me, and that like being in that place of no man’s land? It really was. So it was so lonely. And it was also very demoralizing because I knew that I wanted to change. I knew that I didn’t like the relationship that I had with alcohol, but I felt like everything out there was very geared towards this kind of black and white view of kind of labeling drinkers. And so yeah, that was very, that was very difficult for me for a long time.

Casey McGuire Davidson  07:53

Yeah. I mean, I think everybody, or a lot of people go through that as well. I mean, I know that I, at the same time, like, uh, you know, when I first was like, oh, shoot, this moderation thing is not working. I went to a therapist who specialized in sort of anxiety and addiction, I kind of picked him out for that reason went and tried to talk about my anxiety.

And then he was like, yeah, let’s talk about your drinking. Um, but he recommended I go to AA, because that’s what he had done. And I think a lot of people who’ve been sober for a long time, back in the day, that’s what was the main thing available, or the main thing that everybody knew about? And I did go for about four months, but I really, like you said, I didn’t. I was like, I don’t think I have a disease. I don’t think I’m an alcoholic. And I could spend years debating am I, aren’t I? And I just felt like it was so much energy that I expended. I also like you said the character defect, like, you’re selfish, you lie. You’re, you know what I mean? Like you prioritize yourself over everyone else. And I was like, yeah, that’s not who I am. You know, like, it just, it felt so, so dire that I was like, Okay, I don’t like you said, I don’t want to be in this category. And yet, I know that the way I’m drinking is, is not healthy at all. And what do I do?

09:19

You know, for me, I think it’s one of the things that kind of drives me nuts is that, you know, there’s a lot of debate, you know, not just in society, there’s a lot of debate in the medical community about you know, what actually constitutes disease and is addiction a disease? Is it actually a learned behavior? Like that is not a you know, settled question, but one of the things that I could never really wrap my head around is like, okay, so if it is a disease, like if there is something wrong with my brain, like why is it the only disease where like the cure is to work at being a better person, like, it’s not like, you know, if you have heart disease, maybe you need a stent in your heart, right? Like if you have lung that you have lung disease like, do you need an inhaler? If you have kidney disease, maybe you need dialysis.

But if you drink too much, you need to be a better person. Like, it just is so antiquated. And I think actually, like, you know, when you go back and you look at the founding of AA and understand, like, we’re talking about a program that started in, you know, 1930s, Depression era America, when you look at kind of how almost 100 years ago, we understood why some people had a hard time saying no, why some people overdid things, often it was chalked up to kind of like, it’s an illness, but it was like a spiritual illness, right. And so of course, society was, hey, you have to, you know, connect with this higher power there, the higher power is the only thing that actually is going to help you and, you know, admit like atone for all your sins and all the things that you’ve done wrong and like, then you’ll get salvation.

And listen, I understand, when you look back at the history of really understanding the brain and our knowledge about how the brain works, and how habits work. I understand why like 1930s, you know, people are thinking, this is a spiritual affliction, that requires a spiritual solution, right. And this is something that really is connected to who you are as a person in your morality. I just think here we are in 2022, we know a lot more about the brain, we know a lot more about how habits work, we have this understanding that we, you know, didn’t have back then yet. We’re applying the same framework as if like, this is the solution. And my argument is always like, let’s just have a lot of solutions.

Yeah, right.

There’s, if we let’s not treat it like a black and white issue, let’s have a multitude of solutions out there. And if it works, for some people, great, but I think that there are a lot of people who are either they go and it’s not the right fit, or they’re just so turned off, like I was so turned off by it, that, like it actually like precluded me from getting the kind of help that I could have gotten sooner, because I was like, well, someone’s gonna, you know, say that I need to declare that I’m an alcoholic, and be labeled for the rest of my life and admitted only a higher power can heal me and

Casey McGuire Davidson  12:20

Right, it’s so non science based.

Yeah, it’s so when I’m saying about, you know, a higher power will heal you like that is so not rooted in any medical science. And, you know, I completely agree. I mean, when you think about 90 years ago, what the understanding and treatments were for mental health, you know, it is night and day from the way that people think about it now. And so, yeah, and this

12:48

is like the one place where we haven’t caught up, right. And this is one place where it is still so common for if you, you know, we’ll get that recommendation whether or not you’re, you know, a judge’s sentencing someone with a DUI to go to a 12 step program, or you’re going to your GP, or you’re talking to the therapist, your therapist, and they’re saying, This is what you should do, because I did it, right. It’s like that one area that I just feel like is has not caught up to where we should be.

Casey McGuire Davidson  13:16

Yeah. And it’s so crazy, because it obviously is an addictive substance, and so is smoking, but no one says, If you want to stop smoking, it’s an issue of a character defect that you need to make amends for.

Right.

It’s yeah, it’s a really interesting framework that has just persisted over time. And so what I like about your approach, and the reason I wanted to have you on is because I completely believe in this is around the learning model and around habit formation. And I had William Porter on here, as well, who wrote Alcohol Explained. And he also is, you know, there are a lot of voices saying, hey, let’s look at this learning model of how we use alcohol. So can you tell me about that?

14:04

Yeah, I think the kind of idea is that when you look at the behaviors that you have around drinking, that sometimes it can feel like it just happened, or that was always my relationship with alcohol. Like I remember kind of thinking like, I don’t know, I think I might just be someone who like, always over does it like overdo it with food, and I overdo it, like overdid it my first college party and like, maybe that’s just who I am.

But when you start to really unpack and understand what is driving your behaviors, and understand it, from that perspective, is something your brain is learning something every time you’re reaching for a drink, like that’s what was so powerful for me to start to have that framework to think about. Okay, so what is my brain learning and the fact of the matter is, all of a sudden it gave me such a new perspective on the habits that I developed around drinking instead of saying, I don’t know I think like it runs in my family, like my grandfather was an alcoholic. And I just might, I think, like, I have an addictive personality, and I’m just an all or nothing person. This is something I, you know, identified with a lot like I really made it part of my personality. I think this is just who I am, I started to ask myself, well, what am I learning? And what did I learn when I started drinking when I was 17?

And, you know, very quickly, I could see, oh, yeah, there was this connection to having a lot of social anxiety in social situations and feeling like, I have no idea how to deal with this social anxiety. But if I fill up this, like, red solo cup with some like, you know, terrible, kind of Hawaiian Punch, and green alcohol, or whatever they were serving at, you know, frat parties, like, oh, my anxiety seems to abate a little bit. And recognizing that, like, I in my life was so regimented in many ways, and very much a rule follower, and very much wanted to do everything by the book.

And this was one of the times for me that I actually got to kind of throw caution to the wind, and allow myself to just, you know, do whatever and not worry what people thought and not worry about having to be perfect. Like, I could start to see that, yeah, my brain had learned a lot of things, it learned a lot about socializing, it learned a lot when it came to anxiety, it learned a lot about relationships, it learned a lot about giving myself just permission to like, be myself, and be kind of loud, and laugh really loud and be kind of silly and crazy. And, you know, and I didn’t know how to give those skills to myself, outside of alcohol.

And I’ll just say this for everyone listening, because, you know, when I talk about my experience, sometimes people will be like, oh, well, that’s not, that’s not true for me at all. You know, it’s not like it’s not like a social thing, or I don’t have anxiety. It’s not that humans only learn one thing. When it comes to drinking we learned many, many, many things. And so really just asking, like posing the question to yourself, like, what am I learning? What am I teaching my brain when I reach for this drink? Because I work with so many people who say, oh, I totally identify with your story. And then other people who say, like, nope, that’s not me at all.

Like, my issue is, when I’m home by myself, you know, it’s not out. When I’m with other people, it’s when I have a lot of space and time, and I’m feeling kind of bored, or I’m feeling you know, kind of lonely, or I just need to be able to, you know, have that off switch, and like, put down work and not have to do that. So it’s, it’s not that we all learn the same thing. It’s just to recognize that the brain is always learning. And alcohol kind of speeds up that learning process, because it is a concentrated reward.

Casey McGuire Davidson  17:58

Yeah, yeah. And when you were talking, I was one of those people who absolutely identified with your story, because I was like, a really big rule follower as well. I went to a boarding school where like, you would literally get kicked out, you know, expelled if you were caught drinking, or suspended. And so I just did not drink in high school, until like, sort of senior year. And then I went to college, and it was all keg parties. And I joined the rugby team. And I was just like, this allows me to have adventures like to take off the responsibility to shut off my brain. And like, same thing you were saying, like anything can happen, which I never allowed myself to do. Yeah, I kind of like, liked the idea that I would make bad decisions. So as sad as that is, because I was like, Ooh, who knows what’ll happen?

So that for me resonated, but I completely agree that, you know, everyone often has a reason that alcohol appeals to them. And it is very different. You know, yeah, everyone in terms of what they’re doing. In reading your work and listening to you, one of the things that I thought was really insightful was the idea of two problems at play, because you talk about the underlying problems, and then aftermath problems, and a lot of us sort of glorified the days when we were 22 and 25. And it was fun. And only think about what you call the aftermath problems, which are the negative results of drinking the hangovers not remembering stuff, doing things you regret. But will you tell me a little bit about what you mean by the underlying problems?

19:44

Yeah, I mean, I think this is an important piece that I missed for a very long time, is that I would, you know, I’d wake up and I’d have one of those kind of, you know, first thing in the morning, you open your eyes and you just feel like, Oh, God, like what did I do last night? Right, or like, do I even remember? And why was I so stupid? And why can’t I learn my lesson and who’s going to help me piece together the night? And so I was very fixated on those kinds of like, immediate problems, right, that were often kind of they were just the most painful, right? They were at the kind of like, forefront. And so it was like the hangovers and it was like, regretting what I did, or what I said, or who I brought home with me or right, like that was felt very pressing.

But then to me, I think, again, this comes back to this learning piece of like, okay, but like, why, like, Why do I have this desire? Like, why does it feel like, if I were to say no would it really even be worth going out? Like, what is going on there? And that, to me is more of these kind of like, underlying problems? You know, and it’s interesting, because a lot of times people kind of, like, shy away from the word problem, because it’s like, oh, God, I don’t want to have like a problem with alcohol. But what I really mean is, again, like, what is that thing that it’s helping you solve? Like, what is that thing? And so it might be anxiety, it might be boredom, it might be not knowing.

I mean, I remember feeling like being like, single in New York City, and like, you really want me to, like meet someone and not have alcohol involved? Like, how on earth would that happen? Right? Like, that’s crazy. So it’s really thinking about, like, understanding kind of like that, that layer below which I think a lot of times we don’t spend any time there. Because we’re so focused on like, Oh, God, like I feel awful last night was awful. And why can I learn my lesson and, you know, we’re not focused on these kind of like underlying issues that are going on that actually really are fueling the habit.

Casey McGuire Davidson  21:55

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, the sobriety starter kit.

The sobriety starter kit is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

Yeah, and when you talked about it, you said it’s sort of the underlying problems. One way to identify them are the ones that were present before you take a drink and are less bothersome once you have alcohol in your system. And I kind of sat and was reflecting on you know, sort of in most of my drinking before I stopped so it was sort of like, What were those? What were the things that were present before I took a drink and were less bothersome once I had alcohol in my system. And you know, immediately kind of thought of okay, shutting off work, you know, the emails kept coming. I was really worried about whether we would hit our sales numbers daily tracking it and so it would sort of take the edge off. Oh my god, what if we only hit 80% plan? My husband’s moods he would at times get in really negative moods and I just did not want to deal with the negativity and had tried to talk him out of it long enough that I knew it was sort of just going to spiral into an hour discussion that I didn’t want to engage in so I can kind of tune it out. And then I had a two year old and that is hard like it’s they scream at you. I mean, there

25:17

are no joke. Oh, my kids. Yes, I do. I am.

25:22

I am. I have a little boy, that is three and a half. And I’m like pregnant now. And so you are yes, actually.

Casey McGuire Davidson  25:27

Yes. Yeah. So yeah, I stopped when I had a two year old, an eight year old. And you know, my gosh, I love her. She was a trigger. Right. Just and so, you know, that was kind of like the problems that were present before I took a drink that were less bothersome once I got on my system.

25:48

Yeah. And I again, like it, it really can vary for everyone. So I think the question is just like, How can everyone listening? Just be curious about like, what that is for you? Right? So I’ll work with people who will say like, Listen, I have a full time job. And I’m in charge of, you know, my elderly parent, I’m like, completely, you know, responsible for all of their finances now and all of their health care. And like, there’s no me time. Right? Like, that’s the problem.

The problem is like, pouring that glass of wine becomes a kind of stand in for like, okay, at least like, this is my kind of boundary of like, here’s me time for me, sometimes it has to do with work, sometimes it has to do with kids, sometimes it has to do with your body. Like, it really can be anything like, I’m always so fascinated, especially with, with alcohol, because it also it doesn’t just have like a standard effect on everyone. And so I will work with people who will say, You know what, like, it’s my way to relax. It’s my way to just be like a signal like the day is done. I’m off the clock. I don’t have to do my to do list anymore. And then I will work with people who will say like, no, no, this is how I push through my to do list. Like, I get home, I got to make dinner for the kids, I got to do all these things that I don’t want to do. And that glass of wine is the thing that helps me push through.

And so I think the one thing that I hope people will listening will kind of take away is that, yes, we’re sharing our personal experiences, but it always can look very different. And I just want people to be curious about what are what what is my brain learning? What do I, how do I think it’s helping me? What do I think the kind of underlying issue or problem might be there before I reach for the drink? That feels a little less. Like I’ve taken a little bit of the edge off of that. And just be curious about what that answer could be for you.

Casey McGuire Davidson  27:39

Yeah, I mean, one of the things I read in your book that I thought was kind of unique, was you tell people to ask themselves, how does drinking help me? And I thought that was a really good question. Because I find that when, you know, I kind of describe them as sort of the highlights and the lowlights of drinking. I think it causes resistance and push back to imply that it was all awful, right, which is kind of what he does sometimes. Right? It was, you know, a nightmare. Everything bad happened. And then you’re sort of in the background of your mind, and I hear from a lot of women I talked to, well, it wasn’t all bad. Like, yeah, what about when I went to Italy? What about Napa? What about this? What about that? And so I like that you ask, like, the idea of like, how does it help me and then dissect that because that, you know, for me, the low lights were the vast majority of my time, the highlights were, you know, once a month or once a week or you know, whatever it was for a little bit of time, I had a lovely time. The rest I was on my couch and sort of passing out, you know, yeah, yep. With the hangover.

28:55

Yeah. I mean, I think it’s funny, because when when I pose that question to people, a lot of times they think that it’s a trick question that the right answer is supposed to be like, Oh, okay, it’s not helping me. And it’s like, no, no, it is like, if there wasn’t an upside, you, you wouldn’t have this desire. So like, let’s understand what that upside is. Because so often when, you know, when I’m working with people and talking to them about like, let’s talk about really changing this habit at the deepest level, right? Like, I’m not talking about just learning how to be disciplined and learning how to keep your commitment. Like if we really want to change this behavior and this habit at the deepest level, then we do have to understand how it’s helping you.

Because I think what, where this happened for me and what I see happen for a lot of people is, you know, you decide that you want to do something different and maybe you say I’m going to take a break or I’m just going to cut it out completely whatever it is, and you start to feel a lot of benefits. There are a lot of health benefits, right? I mean, I was like, Oh, this is you can like wake up in the morning and not feel like ass and right and you like remember what you did the night before and all of a sudden my skin was you know getting clearer and I wasn’t doing anything and I looked more well rested, and I was dropping pounds because you know, you weren’t, not only was I not having to empty calories, I wasn’t ending up at the falafel cart at two in the morning, right, like, so there were all these health benefits.

But I think that the problem so often is people kind of introduce the idea of like, Yeah, it’s amazing that drinking, and they’re just like, totally focused on the health benefits, those whole health benefits are going to take you so far, right? And then you’re going to get to a point of feeling like you’re suffering for your health. And that’s not sustainable, right? Like if alcohol was helping you, because it allowed you to shut off the clock, right? Or say, like, I’m off the clock now, then, okay, then health benefits are not going to be able to alone, help you change, you’re going to have to learn how to set some boundaries, and that’s going to be uncomfortable. If it was helping you with intimacy, if it was helping you feel more secure in your body, you’re not going to fix this with health benefits alone. Right? You’re going to have to learn, Okay, so what is it? Like? Why do I have these hang ups? Why do I have this judgment? How do I actually feel more comfortable in my skin?

Like, to me, it’s, it’s not a trick question to be like, Oh, alcohol doesn’t help you. It actually is the key to understanding how to change the habit long term. Because we can’t just rely on feeling better. Because at some point that will become your new normal, right? At some point, your new normal will be I’m not taxing my body every night. I’m not, you know, waking up at two in the morning. I’m not feeling groggy. I don’t have all these extra calories, but then that’s your new normal. Right. So then what? And so I like that question that I think is a question that people are afraid to ask because there’s just like, well, if we acknowledge that there’s an upside, if we acknowledge that there’s a benefit, then it’s like, we’re going to, you know, kind of like sow the seeds, I guess, for people having desire people not wanting to change, but I think no, we’re just we’re just carving up the path for this is how you change the habit long term.

Casey McGuire Davidson  32:06

Yeah, you’re just like, what, you know, what did, how did drinking help you? It is a clue to the underlying issue, like a good place to start to start digging. And, you know, you talk about the idea of problem solving versus problem stalling. And I love that that alcohol was a problem staller, meaning your attention was momentarily diverted. But it didn’t do anything about the underlying problem. So I feel like that question helps you get to, you know, the clue to what is the underlying problem? And, yeah, I mean, that that is it takes longer, right? It’s hard to solve it.

32:46

It’s harder, but it’s, that, to me is like when you get to like the long term lasting change, right? Like, so I would always be like, Yeah, but if I go to a party, and I don’t know people there, and I don’t have a drink, I’m gonna feel terrible. Like, this feels so uncomfortable. And I feel so awkward. And I just want to leave. And it’s helping me, right? It’s helping me with the awkwardness, it’s helping me feel like I have nothing to add to the conversation.

But the thing was, it was just stalling. Like it was problems stalling all those issues, right, because I just still felt like I needed it. The next time. It wasn’t like, I was like, Oh, I had a couple glasses of wine. And that solved my problem moving forward, I just started to teach my brain that I needed it more and more that like this was the solution, as opposed to like, what is happening, like, what is telling you that something is, like, awkward about you and not about other people, or that what you have to say, in the conversation does not matter as much or isn’t as smart. Like, it’s just like that was a real underlying work to do that was actually problem solving that, you know, no amount of alcohol could ever actually fix.

Casey McGuire Davidson  33:58

Or even that the people you were with, were not your people or you didn’t like those kinds of events, or you know, whatever it is, I mean, yeah, you mentioned intimacy. And I think that that’s a really good example of, you know, problem solving, meaning like, Okay, you drank so in order to access intimacy or to make it easier, right. But, you know, basically, every time you do it, you just end up with a hangover. And you know, you’re pushing up what you really want is true intimacy, and being comfortable, and developing that for the rest of your life. But if you keep stalling it, you’re never going to get there.

34:35

Yeah, I mean, what I truly wanted was to be able to feel sexy and appealing and be able to ask for what I wanted from my partner and not feel like I need the buzz to have any of that.

Right.

And, and I think, you know, for me when I just look at like my own kind of, you know, my romantic relationships and my relationship with alcohol, kind of like very closely correspond. And so it really was like very eye opening for me and very challenging for me in my 30s when I was like, oh, okay, so I see that I’m not getting great results from the drinking, but I, like still want to have romantic relationships, like, how does this all work? How do I learn how to be confident in my body and that, because it did allow me like, you know, having a buzz did allow me to be confident in a way that I aspired to be, it did allow me to be, you know, more assertive and ask for what I wanted and tell someone what felt good and what didn’t feel as good that when I didn’t have alcohol in my system, I was much less able to do, right. And so, to me, it’s like, yeah, that was a benefit. And I want that benefit. So like, how do I get it without feeling like I have to, you know, have a bottle of wine in my system?

Casey McGuire Davidson  35:53

Yeah, yeah. And so how do you go about doing that?

35:57

Well, so I mean, this is one of the things that really kind of like, changed my whole understanding of my drinking, but also really changed my understanding of really everything I do, was the think, feel act cycle. So this is not something that I came up with. It’s something that has been around a very long time to explain why we do the things we do. And the premise is simply saying, Listen, your actions don’t just spontaneously happen, right? It’s not like a reflex. It’s not like when you go to the doctor, and they hit us that little rubber hammer on your knee. It’s not a reflex, there’s a thought and a feeling there. But they’re often so unconscious, that that’s why it will feel like, I don’t know why I drink the whole bottle. Like, I don’t know why I yelled at my kids, like, I don’t know why I didn’t go to the gym this morning. Like, that piece of the puzzle will be very unconscious.

And so it will feel like, I don’t know, my actions just happen. And we start to ascribe our actions to like who we are as a person, like, this is just who I’ve always been. And so understanding that cycle, and it first helped me really understand my drinking, it helped me really understand when I was just like, I wasn’t even planning to drink. And then like, I don’t know, like, I just polished off a bottle, right? Where I was only going to have a glass, I was going to be good tonight. And then that went out the window. So it helps me understand my patterns around drinking, but then it really was the, it was the framework to really understand all of my patterns.

So if you think about like intimacy, if I wasn’t being assertive, or I wasn’t asking for what I wanted, or I wasn’t saying like, Oh, that actually doesn’t feel that great. Could you do it like this? Like that, that action or lack thereof of was connected to what was happening in my mind was connected to how I was feeling in the moment. So it was like, think, feel act for me, it was like it gave me this, like roadmap that I had no idea was there before. And it was the roadmap for everything. It wasn’t just, hey, this is why you said you’d have one and then you went overboard, or this is why you said you’d have nothing right. And then you ended up giving into your urges. It was like the roadmap for everything in my life. Like it was a roadmap for like, why I had a really hard time, you know, not responding to emails from my boss at 10 o’clock at night, it was the roadmap, you know, for why I would you know, start every month being like, Okay, I’m going to go to the gym, and like, this month is going to be different, right.

And it would last for a couple of days, and then it would fall apart. Because it was all the sudden showing me the you know, the patterns of thoughts and feelings that were connected to everything I was doing or not doing in life. And so, you know, I always talk with the people that I work with, you know, I say you’re learning a skill that is going to change your relationship with alcohol is going to change, you know, your relationship with drinking whatever you want that to look like, but it’s a skill is going to change everything like this is a meta skill, that once you learn it, you can apply it to everything and that to me, I’m not just like, I just happen to learn it through the habit of drinking. But it really is a skill that I use day in day out.

Casey McGuire Davidson  39:07

Yeah. And so one of the things that I thought was really interesting in the think, feel, act cycle was you talk about, you know, most of us, which when we’re trying to stop drinking, try to interrupt the feel or the desire to the act, meaning tonight I am not going to drink right? Even though you want to, even though you wish you had, could be able to even though you’re like, I’m not gonna buy a bottle of wine. I’m not gonna drink tonight like tonight, I’m gonna be good. Oh my god, or like, I’m not gonna drink till Friday, you know, whatever it is, and then you’re like, irritated the whole fucking time and like snapping at everyone and just pissed off. You’re not working. Maybe that was me. Yeah. So you’re trying to interrupt the field to act right that was part of it. And you talk about doing the work, which is a little harder, although actually interrupting feel to act for me felt impossible for years interrupting the thing to feel, right, the thought process that leads to the desire doing it one earlier and how would you do that?

40:21

Well, so first you have to understand, like, what your specific think, feel, act cycle looks like, because again, it’s going to look different for everyone. And so I will tell you this, that when people start doing this work with me, I will, I will always warn them, like, it’s gonna feel a little bit like you’re learning a foreign language, right? And you like, it all makes sense. But it doesn’t make sense, if you’re not totally sure how to string it all together. So just let it be, like, let that learning process be a little wobbly and uncomfortable.

But then it really is like, so a big thing that I start out with people is really working on their urges, right? Like and, and I think a lot of times, what happens is people say like, Okay, I’ve made a commitment, like I woke up, and I decided, like, today’s gonna be different, or I’m gonna be good, or I’m gonna be good all week. And then like, you know, I can have a little fun on the weekends, like, we wake up, and we have this commitment. And then we’re so confused as to why it falls apart, whether it falls apart that day, whether it falls apart two days later, whatever. And so where I want people to really start to examine is like, okay, so what happened? When you had that urge, when you notice that desire that craving, like, what was happening in your mind? What were you thinking about it? And a lot of times, people at first will be like, I’m, I don’t even know, I don’t even think there was an urge, it just happened, like, we’re so disconnected. But everything that I’m asking people to do is just kind of like slow down the process, right? And then you start to as you’re doing this, and you’re thinking about, alright, what was my thought about the glass of wine? Or what was my thought about the craving that I was feeling? You start to identify these patterns.

And for me, it looked a lot like, I deserve it. I’ve been so good. I had a shitty day. Right? Like, I had a lot of kind of like, reasons and justifications. And I also had a lot of thoughts about the cravings themselves. Like, it’s like, I hate saying no, I say no to myself in so many areas of my life. Do I have to say no here? It feels awful. To want something and to not, you know, go get it. That was like a thing that I you know, and that wasn’t just with alcohol that was with like, lots of things and like, felt awful to want a chocolate bar, and then tell myself that I couldn’t have the chocolate bar, right? We’re like, want the basket of bread, but like, we’re not supposed to eat the bread, right? We’re gonna stay away from the bread. Like, you, I started to like see that. It wasn’t how I was feeling as much as what I was thinking right? As much as like the story in my mind that was so unconscious, and yet so habitual and playing out whether it was about what my day was like, or how I deserved it, or how everyone else was, or how it felt terrible to say no, to something that I wanted, or that urges were, like, unbearable.

And so like, that’s the piece and honestly, I think sometimes the first step is just getting past that knee jerk reaction in your brain to be like, I don’t know, I don’t know what I was thinking. I don’t know what I was feeling like, that’s where I find most people kind of start. They’re like, Yeah, this all makes sense. But I don’t know. And one of the things I always tell people is, you know, that thought, I don’t know, it’s actually fueling your drinking, right? Because every time you believe it, every time you feel confused by how this might be unfolding for you, guess what, you’re not going to change your behavior. Right? And so it’s like, sometimes it is putting like, a different label on your thoughts to just be like, Oh, it’s not that you know, or that you don’t know. It’s just when you tell yourself you don’t know, that actually is fuel for the habit.

And so just being able to kind of work your way backwards and understand. You know, the drink just sits there, right? Like, it’s not whispering your name. So if you understand that, it just sits there, then like, how were you feeling? Right? How what were you thinking about in that moment, like, developing that skill of being able to look backwards is so powerful, because then it helps you in the moment, when you’re starting to be like, oh, right, here’s my brain again, telling me like, Uh huh, I’ll just have one or I don’t want to waste it. Right. Like that’s, that’s like a big thing. Like, oh, I don’t like there’s just a little bit left in the bottle. Like, we shouldn’t waste it. That would be silly. It was expensive, but like, that’s what people you know, what I noticed and what other people that I work with will notice is like, they just all of a sudden, it’s like they can hear the thoughts unfolding. They can start to really like identify those patterns, and then it’s so much easier to start to intervene with them.

Casey McGuire Davidson  44:56

And are you shifting those thoughts because I know people are like, Well, I have people coming to town we’re going to two nice restaurants. It’ll be easier to stop. If I wait until I’m back home from vacation or, Oh, I’m lonely. My husband isn’t. You know, he’s been unfeeling towards me. I just don’t want to be around him tonight. So I need something extra to take the edge off, right? Like, all of that. Sometimes it doesn’t just happen. You’re like literally justifying and rationalizing and yeah, and being like, Okay, I, you know, these are all the reasons that I want to drink in there for all my commitment to not doing it. Let me just forget about that.

45:43

Yeah. So I think there’s a couple things. One is that yes, it is the practice of learning how to not just want, once you spot those kind of like unconscious thoughts that are fueling the habit of yeah, you want to start to shift them, but not in the way that most people think, right? Like, most people think like, oh, I have to shift them. So I have to be like, super positive, or I have to be like, yeah, you can do this. And what I find is that when you do that, it doesn’t feel very believable, right? And so you feel like you’re kind of guessing yourself. And so a lot of times where I have people start, sometimes it’s it’s as simple as like, oh, every time I tell myself, right, that this is going to help make things easier. I’m fueling the habit, right? Or I’m teaching my brain that I need a drink. Yeah. So it’s not to go to the place of like, knowing ultimately doesn’t make things easier, which, you know, you’re probably not ready to be there or believe that yet.

But to think but like, what is a believable thought that I could practice instead. And, you know, like, a big thing that I work on with people, when it comes to urges in their cravings is to start to be like, Listen, this, it truly is harmless. Right? It doesn’t feel harmless in the moment, it feels like a like a false alarm, right? Or I talk about that a lot like it, it’s a false alarm, your lower brain really wants you to believe that this drink is important for survival, right? But it is a false alarm. You can so it’s like starting to, like shift your story, but shift your story in believable. And so I think like, I think those pieces are, you know, when, when a lot of people are introduced to this idea of thought work, it seems like it’s gonna be a lot of like mantras and affirmations. And, like positive talk that just like, feels so fake, and unbelievable. And, and that’s what I’m trying to show people it’s like, sometimes you just need to, like, shift it in the smallest way. And that can make such a huge transformation. And then how you show up, whether it is you know, with friends or out of town, or when you’re walking down the aisle, you know, like the wine aisle of the grocery store, or, you know, you come home and you’re like frustrated by your spouse, like sometimes, like really small shifts can make a huge difference. And then what the end result is, of course, the end result is the decisions you’re making around drinking.

Casey McGuire Davidson  48:07

Yeah. And I think I liked where you said about sort of retraining your brain or, or creating a new habit, I love Atomic Habits and how they talk about the cue craving response for reward cycle, and how you have to create a different reward. And, you know, I mean, that’s something that a lot of us never do, is we’re so used to the initial reward, or we take that reward away. And we just tried to do it all without ever, yeah, as opposed to being like, Okay, I’m making this smaller shift to replace, you know, keep the ritual, you know, change the ingredients, or, you know, instead of grabbing a bottle of wine, go take a bath, or whatever it is, you know, have some chocolate, anything, you know, you’re changing the reward, and then that will over time, help you create a new habit.

49:03

Yeah, I mean, I think this goes back to the question that I have people ask, which is, you know, how is this helping me? Right? Like, what are the benefits? Because I always think it is very much neglected this kind of sense of, if this was a way that you were, you reliably got pleasure, right. And it may have been reliably pleasurable at first. But then, of course, you didn’t like the pleasure in the, you know, the long run, but if it was the way that you reliably got pleasure, like, what are we doing to create more pleasure in your life? Like, like, I don’t think that we’re all just supposed to be like, Well, I’m super healthy. So you know, just good with that. It’s like, No, I think humans were like, meant to have pleasure. Pleasure is something that the brain truly desires. It’s something that we should all have. So if you’re taking out the way that you taught your brain, this is how I feel good. This is great pleasure, this is how I have fun. Well, what are we doing on the flip side? Right?

And like, and it’s so fascinating when I work with people, they’ll often have a lot of resistance to this pleasure piece, and then all sudden, it’s like, I don’t know, do I really deserve this much pleasure? And do I have time for pleasure? And it’s like, well, I don’t know, you, you seem to like, want it right, you seem to be like, that’s the thing in many ways that will be driving the habit, like, I just want to feel good, I just want to enjoy myself, I just want to relax. So it seems like you want it. So maybe we should just figure out how to create it. But we’re so you know, culturally used to consuming pleasure and not just with alcohol, we’re used to consuming pleasure when it comes to food. We’re used to consuming pleasure when it comes to buying things, you know, I talk a lot about the difference between like, consuming fun and creating fun. And most of us as kids have this experience of, we were very good at creating fun for ourselves. We were very good at kind of using our brain and putting our brain to work to figure out like, Okay, I got like, two sticks in hand, like how am I gonna have fun, right?

Yeah.

And then as we grow up, it becomes much more like fun is about consumption. Fun is what I put in my body. Fun is what I buy, fun is what I eat. Fun is what I, you know, I watch. Fun is the screen in front of me like so we have this expectation that things are supposed to entertain us. And we forget that we’re, we’re actually entertaining, right? And like, that’s a skill we’ve had. And I just think that they that piece is so often neglected. And like, I want people to have a like a pleasure practice, like, how am I really creating this for myself? And how am I saying that, like, yeah, I deserve it, this important part of my life, and I want to have more of it. And that’s okay. And I, it’s okay to carve out time for it. Like, that’s what happens. Sometimes when you take away the alcohol, you start to see the thought patterns around, like, I don’t actually have time to, like, do nice things for myself, but I can pour myself a glass of wine,

52:08

right? So I can like, drag myself through the day at like 40% power. Maybe if you were at 100%, you would have time, you know?

Yeah, perfect. Exactly. I bet a lot of people are listening to this and when you’re talking about pleasure, their minds might be blank. They’re like, you know, what, would you give us a bunch of examples? Or some of like, yeah, that type of stuff?

52:35

Well, so I just even think, like, most people take showers every morning. Like, how pleasurable is it to shower for you? Like, how much do you enjoy it? Yeah. Or if you were like how I used to be like, I would wake up in the morning, I’d already feel behind, I’d already feel like oh my God, there’s so much to do. And my shower time was me. Just like worried it was like anticipating all the problems that we’re gonna hit my plate at work are all the things that I had to do or everything, you know, that was on my to do list. That’s not a super pleasurable shower. Right?

Yeah.

Like, imagine what that’s like to actually just be in the shower. And your brain is not catastrophizing about the day, it’s not thinking about everything that gets, you know, you need to get done. But you’re actually like, enjoying the sensation. Right? And, and again, listen, people this is free, right? Like, this is not like, Oh, I got to spend a lot of money and like, go get a massage. This is literally like, are you able to do that? And if you’re not, then that’s why we’re looking at think, feel act. If you’re not, then that’s our we want to understand, okay, what are the kind of habits that you have around thinking people talk about this all the time with, you know, cooking dinner and drinking wine. And it’s like, that’s just the way that I relax myself. I like, you know, cook dinner, and I pour myself a glass of wine.

And it’s like, so what is your experience? Like when you cook dinner without the wine? Like, where is it pleasurable? And people kind of look at me, at first with this like blank, like, What are you talking about? Like, the pleasure is the wine. The pleasure is I opened up the bottle of Chardonnay. But it really is like, if you really were present in the cooking, if you really were present with like the smells and the sensations and the touch. There’s actually a lot of pleasure available to you there. But so often what happens is people discover that the wine that they were pouring was not so much because they just loved the wine. It was because if they weren’t pouring it, they couldn’t actually be present cooking dinner, they their brain was off thinking about everything that went wrong during the day or everything they should have done differently or everything they have to do tomorrow.

And so when I’m talking about pleasure, so often what I’m talking about is just being able to like can you be present in the moment, not what happened five minutes ago now out what happened earlier in the day? Not also what’s happening tomorrow? Can you be present right now? And like, just find the pleasure of like being in your body or find the pleasure of like the sights and sounds and smells around you. And it. It’s one of those things that I just want people to know that there’s a version of me that would have heard someone say this and be like, okay, like, whatever I you know, Sure, great. It’s great chopping celery. But it’s because I am, I hadn’t understood how much my brain needed to be recalibrated. When it came to rewards, like I was so used to, like, really intense rewards from alcohol are really intense rewards from smoking are really intense rewards from like, super sugary food, right? And, and it’s like, once I started to, like, recalibrate my brain, it was like, oh, there are actually a lot of pleasures available. To me. It’s just in comparison, they seemed like, they just didn’t even register. And so like that, to me, it’s like, I don’t know you, like watch a kid go through the world. And there’s a lot of pleasure to be had that adults are often just like, whatever. Like, we got to make the bus. Yeah, like, stop looking at the moon people. Like, we got a bus to catch here. Yeah, so

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:22

I don’t actually love cooking. It’s not my jam. But of course, I cook a lot, because I have two kids. So music is the thing, like putting on music that I somehow know all the words to but didn’t like, pick out myself, you know, whether, like, Hey, play me music from the 90s or something? Like, I’m just like, that’s awesome.

56:46

Yeah. And like, I really do think it’s one of those things that it’s, we’re so conditioned to be like, well, either I need like the fast instantaneous, like pleasure that I consume, or pleasures is really like time consuming expensive. Like, you know, where am I going to actually fit it into my schedule type of thing. So of course, it’s like, well, if those are my choices, and I want a pleasurable life, I guess I’m gonna choose the wine, right? Or I guess I’m gonna choose the Ben and Jerry’s. And I think it’s really helping teach your brain Oh, that actually it doesn’t have to be a choice between like, quick, easy, fast concentrated, and then subsequently hard to say no to versus like expensive, time consuming, you know, large commitments, it really is like, it can be available to you all the time.

Casey McGuire Davidson  57:32

Yeah. Very cool. And so if someone’s listening to this, and just trying to figure out how to get started, or how to start again, right, if they took a break, and then went back to drinking or whatever, what’s your best advice for like a first step?

57:50

So I think, um, I really do love starting with, like, what are the benefits? Okay, so I, I actually do it kind of like a cost benefit exercise, because we’re so used to focusing on like, Oh, I know, it’s not good for me. And I know, it’s causing problems. And like, I know, it’s not good for my heart, or we’re so used to trying to want to convince ourselves that something is bad. So that will change. And I think we don’t have a lot of practice looking at how something is beneficial. And again, it’s not a trick question, but to like really start there, because it also takes you away from this. This kind of mindset of like, oh, it’s all about quantity, like, did I drink? Or did I not drink? Or did I drink the right amount? Or did I drink too much like, I want people to see, like, let’s just take quantity out of the picture. Let’s take, let’s move your brain away from consumption, and just start from this place. So I even think like, getting that down on paper and really seeing like, how is it helping me? It then you know, it, I think it should just start laying the foundation to have like a different kind of internal narrative about like, so why am I reaching for this glass? Like, why is this so appealing? If it truly just sits there? And I don’t believe I’m powerless, and I don’t believe I have a disease. Then can I just be curious about what’s going on without all this kind of like judgment of like, oh, you should know better?

Casey McGuire Davidson  59:16

Yeah. Yeah. And I know in your book, you have a whole bunch of questions on how to go through it. And one of them, you know, I’m looking at it now. It’s like list any specific emotions, it helps with anxiety, stress, boredom, loneliness. And that’s something on this podcast I’ve talked about a lot when you’re like, Okay, I really want to drink is identify what emotion it is like, what? Why do you want to drink? What are you feeling that’s making you want to drink and if it’s like, I’m bored, then it’s like, Alright, I’m bored. If I don’t drink, how else can I solve for that? Like, what other options are on the table?

59:54

Or like, why is it a problem? Like yeah, boredom become a problem. The other thing I’ll add just because this comes up a lot is people will say, Yeah, but I’m not drinking because of like negative emotions. It’s positive, like, I want to feel cozy, I want to feel connection, I’m feeling celebratory. And so then I think it’s, you know, drinking can often kind of mask, you know, the negative emotions that we feel. But when you start to understand, okay, so why do you believe that this is going to augment the positive emotion? Like, what is it about this moment, right now that doesn’t feel celebratory or pleasurable or cozy enough like, to me, that’s like, such a fascinating place to take your brain and understand, like, oh, so if I’m augmenting something, it means because I think it’s lacking. So like, what is lacking?

And sometimes that’s a really powerful place for people to start, because they’ll say no, no, things are good. Like, I’m happy I have a good life. And I’m not disputing that. It’s just the idea of, okay, so why do you want to augment it? What do you think is the added value and like, so often, what people will discover is they’ve so trained their brain to expect a concentrated reward with these positive emotions, that they don’t even realize that they’re not even ever fully enjoying the positive emotion when it comes on its own. Like, I remember working with someone. And she was saying that she had finished this, like, huge sales presentation, and it had gone really, really well. And as soon as it was done, she was in the process of, you know, trying out taking a break. As soon as it was done. She was like, Oh, I, I really want to like I wanted to, like go out and like go to the wine bar and celebrate. And she realized she was like, Oh, I wasn’t even in the moment of feeling proud. Like, my brain couldn’t even settle there. Because I was like, it was so anticipating we’re going to get a reward. Like, we feel good, we’re going to celebrate, we’re going to get a reward. And she realized she never actually like, let herself like savor feeling proud of herself. She was like, skipping right over the positive emotion to get to the concentrated reward. And that for her was like, such a mind blowing experience to be like, Oh, I could just really be in like, she was driving in the car. And she was like, I could just really revel in like, feeling so proud of myself right now, instead of like, just anticipating, like, when’s the drinking coming?

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:22

Yeah, no, I love that. And I love that question as well. And I’ve asked it, you know, to some of my clients, because I had one who we live in Seattle, the San Juan Islands are up north of us, and they’re absolutely gorgeous islands, just beautiful. And she’s up there. She’s with her partner, she, you know, had stopped drinking a little while before in the sunshine in these Adirondack chairs overlooking the water, you know, and she’s like, I just really want to drink. And I asked her, I said, why isn’t it enough? Like, why isn’t it enough to be with the person you love? In this gorgeous place? On this sunny afternoon, you know, with a different beverage in your hand? And it was like, okay, so I actually, like asked myself that often to be like, Yeah, is this enough? You know, like, this is good. So yeah, you know?

1:03:18

And the answer is always going to be found where your brain is hanging out, right? When it, because it’s when people are saying like, Yeah, but it could be better. It’s like, okay, so what is actually preventing it from being better? It’s not the drink. It’s what’s happening in your mind, right? Is that think, feel, act cycle unfolding? And I really do think like, it’s not about making a moral judgment of like, you know, oh, is it wrong to augment emotions? Or, you know, is it wrong to want to just like, have as much pleasure, even if those pleasures are false pleasures? It’s not about that. It’s just really, I think, asking yourself, like, what do I actually think is lacking from this moment? And why is it lacking, right? And then just, we’re so used to thinking like, oh, it’s because I don’t have the drink yet. Like, the waiter hasn’t come with my order. Right, like waiting for the drink. Instead of looking and seeing like, so often, for me, the block was not the alcohol, the block was like, where my brain loves to hang out. And my brain loves to hang out in some like shitty places of like, everything I did wrong, you know, two minutes earlier, or two years earlier, everything that I had on my plate and had to get done, you know, in the next five minutes are the next five years. Like, I wasn’t very good at just like being in the present moment and allowing myself to be there and enjoy it. I was off hanging out, you know, in the negative past and the negative future.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:04:43

Yeah. Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, so if people want to get in touch with you, if they want to learn more, can you tell us where they can reach you and follow up?

1:04:52

Yeah, definitely. So I do have a podcast that comes out every Tuesday, called Take a Break from Drinking. And if people want to work with me I have to Take a Break Membership where something they can check out. So if you go to Rachelhart.com, that’s H-a-r-t.com. And you can find out the information there.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:05:11

All right, perfect. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

1:05:15

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:05:18