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Life After Alcohol with Nicole Pietrandrea Hough

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking, alcohol, sober, feel, retreats, women, stopped, magazine, love, free, life, year, alcoholic, good, sobriety, talk, cool, step, issue, struggling, life after alcohol, sober curious, time away from alcohol, stop drinking, quit drinking, alcohol-free, sobriety, giving up alcohol, habits, habit change, Atomic Habits, good habits built into self-improvement over time, compassion, self-compassion, self-forgiveness, self-confidence, grace, love for self, Brené Brown, anxiety, trauma, we need a support network, sober in the city, travel, retreats, joy, sober retreat, sober yoga girl, self-care, mocktails, mocktail quest, After Magazine, After Alcohol-Free Magazine, Athletic Brewing Company

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Nicole Pietrandrea Hough

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a buzz, how to sit with your emotions when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there.

Today, we are talking about

life after alcohol.

So, imagine you’ve been sober curious for a while, you’ve been going back and forth on trying to stop drinking and drinking again. And then you finally built up some time away from alcohol.

So, you’ve moved through the first 30 days, the first 3 months, the first 6 months maybe. And now you’re like okay, I’ve quit drinking. I’m alcohol-free. What comes next?

My guest today is Nicole Pietrandrea Hough and she is the founder and editor-in-chief of After Alcohol-Free Magazine, and the founder of mocktailquest.com. A search engine for all things alcohol-free.

Nicole stopped drinking in 2020 and set out on a journey to figure out what things would look like alcohol-free. She discovered a vibrant and rapidly growing alcohol-free community, both online and in person. That coupled with the realization that her new AF life held more beauty, more depth and more joy than she ever imagined. She created After Magazine. Nicole wanted to support people who might be searching for answers around their drinking and feeling alone to normalize sobriety and an alcohol-free lifestyle and to show just how amazing life can be after giving up alcohol in the cold.

Welcome. I’m glad you’re here.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  02:51

Hi, Casey. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me here.

Casey McGuire Davidson  02:55

Yeah, I’m excited because so many people after they’ve gotten past the really difficult first couple months, six months a year, they’re like, Okay, I am no longer drinking. I am sober. What now? What next? And they wonder both?

What are the challenges that they might go through, you know, after that first year, or after that first six months? But also, what is there to look forward to? How can they sort of sustain their sobriety and keep it interesting, and keep it exciting as a forward journey? Right.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  03:30

It’s such a great topic. I mean, this is why we named the magazine after and our tagline is, we believe the best life begins after saying goodbye to alcohol. And then they often after stands for alcohol free. It’s a double meaning, but, but we really, truly believe that. And I talk to people every day, who tell me their stories of how beautiful their life is, and how much fuller their life is. And I can talk more, on and on about that. But again, it’s not to minimize though the challenge that it takes to get there.

You know, there’s that first period that’s really difficult. And in that period, myself, I felt very alone. And I felt like I was the only one that ever went through this, you know, and that was really where the inspiration for the magazine started that people shouldn’t feel alone and that there should be a physical something out there for them to say, oh, there’s other people going through this. And here’s the beauty on the other side of this. We really do focus a lot on that beauty.

So, in my mind, giving up alcohol is the first step in getting to that new life.

Whereas when you’re when you’re someone who’s struggling with that, and you haven’t quite done it yet, it feels like that’s the only end game like you have to get to that and goalpost of giving up alcohol which is how I felt in the moment. And then, I didn’t realize here’s this other whole world on the other side and the personal development and all the things that go along with that that goes on forever and ever and just continues to get better and better.

Casey McGuire Davidson  05:01

Yeah, Absolutely.

Well, so tell me, after your first year alcohol-free, what were the biggest things that you needed to add your life to look for to cope with?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  05:13

That’s a great question. So, yeah, again, to reiterate the, the idea that this is a long game, you know, the first year, you feel so much better, you feel you’re sleeping better, you’re more mentally clear. And you’re like, Wow, this is great, you know, but it’s also a huge amount of upheaval. Your habits are different, you’re probably still craving alcohol, you’re trying to fill that void with something. Your friendships are all in upheaval, your social life, everything’s kind of up in the air. And after a while, that calms down. And part of dealing with that and having it calm down is getting to know yourself better in my experience. And so, that’s the process that for me, kind of began around year two, which was okay, my friendships are in upheaval.

But what does that really mean? You know, what’s important to me? Getting to know, my priorities? I’d say my priorities shifted fairly dramatically trusting your intuition, things of that nature sort of begins at that point.

Casey McGuire Davidson  06:21

Yeah, I totally understand that. I love that you said the long game, because that’s something I talk about a lot in coaching is sort of a habit change approach.

And in Atomic Habits by James Clear, he talks about good habits being a long game of compounding benefits. So good habits built into self-improvement over time, and sort of that 401k curve, trajectory, that once you get away from the beginning part of the curve, it just keeps compounding.

And I wanted to ask you about your priorities shifting. You mentioned they shifted pretty dramatically. Can you tell me more about that?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  07:09

Yes. Um, how there’s so much to it, let me think I’m going to categorize. I mean, I became very work focused, I have two kids.

So, first of all, my relationship with my kids felt started to feel richer and fuller and calmer. And I was it was just so much easier to deal with raising teenagers when you’re clear headed. And that to me is that I mean, that was one of the most amazing things and still is that it’s just better.

It’s great. You know, and not that it was bad before, but it was more challenging and harder. And I always felt a little depressed and anxious. And there was a poll where your kids when you stopped drinking, they were 12 and 14. Okay? Yep. Is that right? Yes, that’s right.

Casey McGuire Davidson  07:57

Yeah, mine were two and eight when I stopped. And now I have a 16 year old and a 10 year old. So, you know, I’m looking, you know, I’ve got one son who’s a teenager, which is interesting. You know, he’s, he’s awesome. But I’m just like, I miss my little boy.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  08:16

I know, I feel that way. Minor. Now. Minor. One is going to be 17. And two weeks, and one is 19. Almost 20.

Casey McGuire Davidson  08:25

Wow, that’s awesome. Your relationship with your kids got? You said Fuller, calmer and richer. And it was once you stopped are much easier.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  08:32

Yeah. I mean, at that point, if we think back like they were 12, and 14, and it was the middle of the pandemic, Oh, yes. Just myself in them. And it was tough. And it was, you know, it was all sorts of factors that were just difficult and that it just, it became lovelier and easier. So that is one thing I’m so grateful for. I mean, I wish I wish they were maybe younger, let’s try not to go too much into regrets, but that would have been much better. I regret waiting so long. But that was one thing. And then I already I was making cooking livestream videos, during the pandemic. And it was this thing that I loved that I didn’t know I was going to love so much. And that contributed to me giving up alcohol because I was like, it’s one or the other. I mean, I can’t be tired doing this and going in front of an audience and not feeling right.

So, I had this thing already that I loved that eventually morphed into the magazine and morphed into mocktails, and then the magazine. And I think that’s very important. And I was lucky that I had that because like I said earlier, you have to fill that there’s a void that happens. And that’s the danger in any situation, whether you’ve already stopped drinking or you’re trying to stop drinking when there’s a big void in your life that you’re going to fill it with something and so, in my case, it was sort of work that I tried to be very cognizant like in my in my filling that void like, you know, they say like you give up, you’re an alcoholic, and then you’re a workaholic. Like, I try not to approach it that way and have some balance. And that’s actually something I’m working on now more than a year for having that balance and being more aware. But having said, that, is your motivation really makes a difference?

Casey McGuire Davidson  10:19

And so, for me, that was hard. I mean, I think you’re absolutely right about after you stopped drinking, the first year, maybe the first six months, are really about navigating life without alcohol and figuring out how to go through drinking events and social situations and holidays and cope and manage your emotions and shifting friendships.

And then, you know, I found two things. One, most of us have some underlying reason why drinking works for us really well. Something that we don’t have to think about when we drink, whether it’s work or anxiety, or relationships or something that you have to deal with. But then, what else do you love? What else are you interested in without alcohol? And I remember, like, my coach literally said to me, in the beginning, what do you love more than wine? And my mind was blank, like it was, I was like, I like a lot of stuff with wine, like concerts and hanging out with friends and camping, but like, more, you know, obviously, my kids, my husband loves me. Like, you know what, my mind was blank. And so, I think you’re right, in needing to fill that void. And it’s, it’s not easy to figure out what that is. You have to experiment?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  11:42

That’s true. Yeah. Right. It’s not easy. It’s none of this is really like easy, you know, but it gets easier. Over time.

Casey McGuire Davidson  11:50

Do you have advice? Or have you talked about in the magazine how women can start exploring what those other interests are? To fill that void?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  12:02

Yes, I mean, there, we actually have not written and written an article specifically on that. So, I’m going to make a note, I think we should add, that would be fantastic. I think, for me, at least, and this is one of many ways, but for me, it was that there was a little voice. That was like, I had wanted to make these videos for years. And I didn’t have the confidence to do it. And I was like, I have a stupid voice. And I looked bad on camera. I had every reason in the book, why it wasn’t going to work.

So that’s like, really the number one place to look is what is this thing that you’re either afraid to do? Or have told yourself? You can’t do? Like, how can you make a little baby step towards that? It doesn’t have to be grand gesture, you know, just little things toward that. They say like, follow your jealousy, you know, like something like, what do you see that you would really just love to have? And but those are some clues as well.

Casey McGuire Davidson  13:00

For me, it was always like, what are all the things that you always said you were going to do or you wanted to do? Or you wanted to spend more time with that you never quite got around to or follow through when you were drinking? Like, yeah, the first thing I did was run a 10k. And I hadn’t run a 10k in six years. And so, I just started jogging, I joined a running group. So that was like, number one. And then I had taken God guitar lessons when I was like, you know, 25 to 30. And I was 40 when I stopped drinking.

And so, then I went back to doing guitar lessons. And then I went on a couple, not, you know, alcohol-free retreats to like, it was like camp for adult women. It was awesome. Like sleeping in a yurt and meeting all these inspirational women. And then I decided to go back to school to become a Coach. So, it’s like the small steps. And then the bigger ones once you’re sort of world expands? That was my personal experience.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  14:06

Yes, that’s really important, I think and myself included, I think women think I have to do everything. And I have to do it all right now. Yeah, yourself in some way. And the value of small steps cannot be overstated. I mean, it’s really, it’s that’s really important just to do and to let go also have the guilt that you might have that you didn’t do it before. Yeah, do it well enough for all those things that we put on ourselves.

Casey McGuire Davidson  14:35

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that that’s what your magazine and I hope this podcast will help women with is so many of us can’t imagine our life after drinking because that’s what we’ve done. That’s our social circle. Maybe that’s our relationship with our spouse. You know, for me, it was a huge part of my identity, and you almost need to spur the imagining. nation of people who are sort of stuck in those limiting beliefs that life can be better. And that’s why I love your magazine. And what you do is you are expanding and getting them curious and excited about what’s next.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  15:13

I thank you. First of all, I really think that is the beauty of it, that there’s this whole world out there that I didn’t even expect, you know, and that. And I hope that’s inspiring to people who might be afraid because our whole society tells you like, your life’s going to suck. If you give up alcohol, it’s going to be so boring. I thought it was funny that you mentioned live music. I mean, I couldn’t imagine going to hear live music without having a beer or a drink. And now, I mean, it’s one of my favorite things to do. Yeah. And now I go. And not only is it incredible, but I can’t I have to, I’m holding back tears, like half the time because I’m so overwhelmed with joy. Yeah, just to be in that moment.

Casey McGuire Davidson  15:58

And it’s like the sound envelops. He has been around 1000s of people singing and it just like, yeah, I completely and totally agree. And I think one of the things you mentioned that I wanted to touch on, because I think it is really important. It’s women think about life after alcohol. So, I know that when I stopped drinking, I was like this overachiever. Goldstar girl, I think a lot of women are like that, who are high achieving, and drink a lot, right? It just, it’s some combination of turning off your mind. And so, I would never start anything, because my mind would immediately go to the end, like, can I be successful in this? What are the steps? What am I going to do? And when I stopped drinking, I had to start doing this thing I kind of call following the divine breadcrumbs, which is just taking one step towards something that interests you. And then taking the next step. And the next step.

Like, you don’t need to know what the endgame is. And it’s sort of an exercise in releasing control. But when you talked about the videos, and now you’re creating this, you know, print magazine, that’s like the divine breadcrumbs, right? Like, I’m just interested. So, I’m going to try it without being like, can I publish a magazine? Oh, my God, I don’t know how Forget it. I’m not going to start. Right?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  17:21

Yes, I will say this is something I struggle with. Because I mean, oh, I wake up every day, like, Oh, we don’t I didn’t do this. I didn’t do that. And I have, I’ve created this whole new list of things for myself that I have to do. Yeah, grow my subscriber base. And you know, and it’s like, there’s, I have goals related to the magazine, and I have to pull myself back and say, look at where you are, look at the foundation that you’ve laid, and the things you’re doing, you’re going to get there, you are going to get there and not beat myself up that I’m not there. already. I mean, that is really my struggle.

Casey McGuire Davidson  18:00

I know. It’s also about like, trusting that if you take a step in one direction, it will either be the right thing, or you will learn something, as opposed to I feel like when I was drinking, I was just like, somewhat, that’s actually why I named my podcast Hello, someday, like someday I’ll do X someday I’ll do Y and it’s like, you just need to like take that step. Starting today.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  18:27

Yes, I tried. That’s I say to myself a lot like you don’t need to see the whole staircase. You don’t need to see the whole staircase like because you’re not going to see the whole staircase. It’s really designed that way. Like you can’t tell the future. Yeah, but if you believe in what you’re doing, like truly believe it I do. And I think it sounds like you do you know that the it’s going to get there, you’re putting in work you believe in what you’re doing.

And when I first came up with the idea, I mean, this may sound Hocus Pocus, but I I believe that it was a divine download. I have a drive around in my car, I cry a lot. I cry at music festival I cry in my car. But I was like in tears like I have to do this thing. I have to it came to me as an idea. And it I want to help people, and I want to get these stories out there and I was like, you can’t go wrong when you feel that way about something. I believe that at least Yeah. Yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson  19:21

So that’s really interesting to me. I think that’s, that’s important. And that was all around the idea of like, you have to fill the void and find other interests after you’ve removed alcohol. What else? What’s something else that women should think about?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  19:38

So, I think, you know, going back to like, the before. Kind of, there’s so much messaging thrown at women with a lot of the word should in it. And sort of a not good enough message is there’s just so much like there’s that plus the fact that alcohol wreaks havoc on your body more so The woman and there’s so much healing that needs to happen on both of those fronts.

So, there’s like, it’s two sided almost, that we’re talking about filling the void. But then there’s also this, you really need to kind of get quiet to then allow that moment where you can you start to hear your inner voice again discern which messaging is real, and which is just our society telling you that you know, as a mother, or as not a mother. I mean, I think it applies to mothers and not mothers.

Yeah, but there’s this. What is society telling you? Why do you have to do these things? And we all kind of grew up feeling like Well, yeah, of course, you do this and this and this sin, like, well, that’s not right for everybody. Yeah, yeah. A little bit vague, but like, you know what I mean? And you know, sifting through that sifting through what people around you are telling you, because I think society is not so kind to women who identify as alcoholics and like, why were you like that? When you have a problem?

Casey McGuire Davidson  21:01

You know that table and just getting to know yourself? I think that’s really, do you identify as an alcoholic?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  21:05

I do now, I took me about three years to actually start using that word. I’m like, you know, alcohol use disorder like that a little. Yeah, but I do. I had a problem with alcohol. For sure.

Casey McGuire Davidson  21:17

Yeah, no, I just, I don’t I don’t identify with that term. Personally, I just kind of say, well, alcohol, it’s addictive. I used to drink a lot. It’s really, you know, it’s really hard to break. It’s a really hard habit to break. And I quit, and I feel better. Like for me, that’s my story is I quit drinking. I’m curious, did you go to a 12 step program? Is that No, why? Or separately, you just you just identify with that term separately.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  21:45

So, I will say I don’t 100% love that term. I think if you say that term is the term we use that you are addicted physically addicted to alcohol, then that applies. But I think there’s a lot of connotations there. Number one being that you have a disease that lasts forever, I wouldn’t start drinking again. But I also think I have created a life I’m so secure in my sobriety that I don’t there’s like some other nuances.

Casey McGuire Davidson  22:14

Oh, totally. I just also don’t use that or identify with that, because it puts the onus on the person, not the substance, like I think anyone with enough exposure to alcohol, which could be societal, whatever the social group you’re in, is going to become addicted to alcohol, because that’s how it works. It’s an addictive substance. And so, I feel like personally, the term alcoholic has like this stigma, this negative connotation. And also, I feel like big alcohol loves it, because it’s like, oh, there’s something wrong with you. Not our product. Right. But that’s just me.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  22:55

So, I think anyway, you actually, even though I don’t go around saying I’m an alcoholic, oh, yeah, I used to in the beginning, I would say, alcohol wasn’t leading me to where I wanted my life to go or something like that. But I feel like it was a little too coy. Like, I don’t want to minimize how difficult it was and caddy active alcoholic. So, you know that because for me, like the addictive, physically addictive portion of my whole long drinking career was very short. It was really just towards the end when I realized like, holy shit, like all of a sudden, I have a problem, you know that I don’t want to stop. I can’t stop. I’m tired. I don’t feel good. That was not great.

Casey McGuire Davidson  23:31

Well, and the reason I asked about that is because I think that’s another thing, women, one that holds them back from stopping drinking, but two that they need to grapple with once they stopped drinking, and there’s no right or wrong. You know, some people really feel empowered by the term alcoholic because it makes it very black and white. And if you’re in a 12 step programming, I think there’s a lot of solidarity and community and shared language there.

For other women. Like myself, I don’t like that term I want, you know, the fact that I no longer drink, and I used to, and I’m very open about the fact that like, I was a bottle of wine a night drinker 365 days a year, unless I was like, I don’t think there’s anyone who you say that to and they’re not like, Oh, dude. Like, that’s how, you know, but for me, I feel like, Yeah, someone said this, Craig Ferguson. And he was talking about drinking, he quit drinking years and years ago, and he was like, I don’t have a drinking problem. I haven’t had a drink in 21 years. He’s like, I can get one really quick. And that’s how I feel about it.

I’m like, I haven’t had a drink in 8 years. I don’t have a drinking problem. Right. But if I ever touched it again, I’d be back to it pretty quick. So, all that is to say after you stopped drinking, that’s something that you get to choose how you identify how you personally think About the fact that you used to drink a ton. And now you don’t. And how you think about how that applies to your identity, and there is no wrong answer.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  25:10

That’s right. There’s no wrong answer. Yeah. Yeah. And there are terms like the term alcohol use disorder. I mean, that wasn’t really around a couple of years ago, or gray area drinking, those are more descriptive terms. They’re not as widely used. But it will.

Casey McGuire Davidson  25:30

The reality is that alcoholic is not a medical term, and actually never what it was, like really popularized by AAA. And it’s not a medical diagnosis, it is alcohol use disorder (AUD). So, like, I just personally, I really feel like the alcohol companies love the term alcoholic. And I’m a little bit like, Fuck you guys. Because I think it takes the onus off the fact they have a really addictive fucking product that they had been pushing down our throats. And then if you become addicted to the addictive product, they’re like, Oh, you guys have an issue? You know.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  26:06

I do think that’s a problem in general, right? Yeah, the blame goes on the person, never on the product. And it is the product, the product plus the message that we receive in our culture that you can’t have a nice life without the product. So that’s Oh, yeah, it’s all a big plan.

Casey McGuire Davidson  26:22

Yeah, it and they’re like, you know, drink more drink more often. Like, that’s their goal, you know, in the market, Ealing in Denver, do you have Sidious? With it, it’s, it’s on you.

So, I’ve done a bunch of episodes on it, including why I don’t identify with that term. I’ll put it in my mind as we’re having this.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  26:41

I wanted to use that term to make it clear that like, there’s, you know, there was a physical addiction. Yeah. And it’s been to not minimize any of it, and that you can get to the other side of that.

Casey McGuire Davidson  26:57

And those three things make it black and white, that like, I do not drink. It’s kind of like when you say that word, like, you’re not fucking around. Me, no one’s going to be like, just have one. You know.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  27:10

It does kind of save you from that, because Oh, my God, people are like, yeah, no frame a couple of years, they would say, and people would ask for a seltzer. And they’d be like, well, I also brought you a champagne. And I’m like, I don’t want the champagne. Why are you? Oh, yeah. Why are you bringing that to me? Like, what is it? Is it making you feel better? That was kind of an issue. It doesn’t happen anymore. But I

Casey McGuire Davidson  27:30

always like whenever I go on a plane, and they offer me a drink or to a restaurant. I always say Oh, actually, I don’t drink alcohol. So, what do you have? That’s non-alcoholic? Like very upfront, you know, not like I’m not drinking tonight or no things. But again, I’m much more comfortable with it.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  27:48

It leaves the door wide open. Yeah, everything. I’m going to. I saw your post. Are you going to France?

Casey McGuire Davidson  27:55

Oh, I am. I’m going to provide excited in a week and a half.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  28:00

Oh, that’s awesome. I’m going to Italy, and we can have so I’ve been practicing how to say like, No, thank you. I don’t drink alcohol. Good. Good. Every meal comes with lemon cello at the end again. They’re offering you things all the time.

Casey McGuire Davidson  28:14

I am very lucky in that I go away with three other sober women are great word who used to run alcohol free adventure trips. All over, you know, she’s been to Tuscany and Iceland. And she speaks perfect French. So, I’m like, You know what? I’m just going to let her handle it.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  28:31

Right, right. She’ll order the drinks. Oh, totally. Yeah, that’s great. Yeah, I think being able to say that very clearly and not be embarrassed. Yeah. You never know what could happen.

Casey McGuire Davidson  28:45

It is becoming so much more common. Now. We were talking before we jumped on just the huge evolution of the alcohol free movement and it’s coverage in the mainstream media and the fact that so many restaurants now have non-alcoholic options, you know, zero proof menus mocktails you know, the fact that every single major publication like New York Times today show Good Morning America Washington Post you name it, I mean, Vogue UK are covering dry January in the Sober Curious movement and makes it less of a deal. Right. Right at this, your magazine.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  29:27

Right. Exactly. It’s, um, it’s really part of our mission is that we want to normalize this across and it’s happening. It’s not happening solely because of us, but we hope partly because of us, but it is happening. And I think it’s all very important for over the collective as a whole people that are health is better. Everything about life is better. And then also for people who really cannot drink and should not drink to be included. It’s an inclusivity issue. Yeah, absolutely. Health and safety issue. Yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit.

 

The Sobriety Starter Kit is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

Casey McGuire Davidson  30:06

All right. So, we talked about language and conditioning, sort of your belief system about alcohol, and also the idea of how much pressure or what you should do as a woman in this world. filling the void. What else? What else do you see women talking about after they stopped drinking? Like, is there one article or subject that you’ve gotten a ton of feedback on? Like, that was so interesting and helpful.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  30:40

We get we get so much great feedback on our on our interviews, just hearing people’s stories of how they overcame alcohol and then overcame the challenge their own personal challenges looking at them into their in inward after giving up alcohol.

Yeah, a lot of what I think resonates with people is articles about compassion, self-compassion, self-forgiveness, self-confidence, things like that. I like building up your grace, and your love for yourself. And I think self-confidence as part of your love for yourself it into this whole new person that you never knew existed before.

And it’s incredible how tied in that is because when you don’t feel good, and your brain is not working at its full capacity, and you’re tired, and you’ve judging yourself for drinking.

And yeah, wondering, why can’t I stop breaking promises to yourself, all the things that happen when you are drinking, hinder that development. And those stories we hear again, and again, we’ve written a bunch of them on compassion and confidence.

There’s one in this current issue about letting your own your true banner fly. And we use the term freak flag in articles, we also say like, let your banner fly your true self.

Casey McGuire Davidson  32:05

You know, so I think we had fun stuff, you know, what are the big steps to self-compassion? I mean, we were almost talking about this before is just a big step is around forgiving yourself. And moving forward from tricky just you even mentioned, I wish I’d done it earlier. I mean, I think most I wish I’d done it.

You know, I tried to stop when my son was five, I stopped for a year and when my daughter was born, I decided to you know, quote, unquote, moderate, and it took me another two years before I stopped. So yes, had I stopped when he was five or earlier, that would have been better part of me feels like I needed to go through that to like, take away the belief that it was a situational issue, versus it was the substance, and it was never going to be different. But like self-compassion, what? Tell me about that article? And like, what were the steps that that you recommend to start doing that work?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  33:06

That’s a great question. I will say, first of all I did. I also gave up alcohol for nine months and then went back to it and I don’t recommend it necessarily, but I instrumental it was instrumental in understanding the difference, you know, how bad it was, how great it was, and then how bad it was again, and then I was like, it’s very clear that this is the issue.

Casey McGuire Davidson  33:26

I mean, I erase so many women like, Okay, I’ve stopped drinking for three months, six months, like maybe I can drink now. And I always really try to coach them. Like, don’t fuck with it. It took me two years of hangovers and anxiety and shame. To stop again, like, it’s not like, Oh, John, easy to stop doesn’t work out. I’ll just stop again. It’s not that easy. But if you have gone back to drinking after a period of sobriety, know that can help you keep going when you get sober momentum again, like you can use that as fuel for your result.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  34:07

That’s true. Yeah. It is an interesting journey. And it’s helpful in its own way. But I think that self-compassion, I mean, first of all, it takes time, and it takes keeping your promises to yourself and then not beating yourself up when you don’t keep your promises to yourself. Like there’s both sides of that coin. For myself. It’s involved a lot of therapy.

Casey McGuire Davidson  34:37

Yeah, I really recommend therapy, and I love therapy. Like therapy, drinking, especially. I went for a year after I started it four months after I stopped drinking kind of went weekly for a year and it helped me so much.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  34:50

I continue I still continue therapy. I do it every other week. Now. It’s great. I find that there’s always the next level of depth that you can Though and now it feels really great to be at a very, like, Okay, I feel good about myself. I’ve been through some tough times in the past few years, and I sat with those emotions, you know, there’s been some like family things that have happened. I’ve learned to sit with those emotions and not crave a drink. And like all the basics or knock on wood. I mean, it feels good right now. And then you go to the next level, like, I keep saying, my story keeps getting longer and longer, because it keeps going back 10 more years, another 10 years, another years. And I’d be like, Oh, well when this happened, and then it led to this.

Casey McGuire Davidson  35:33

But I feel like Bucha in school, and this podcast has sort of filled that void for me, because it was like, I did therapy for a year. And then I went to coaching school and you get a coaching and coaching school. And then this podcast is weekly therapy for me on any topic, I need it like half the time, I’m like, Oh, dear God, I’m dealing with this. Alright, let’s talk about anxiety and impostor syndrome and perfectionism and raising teenagers, right? Like, I get free advice from experts all the time.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  36:05

That’s great. It’s true. Because there’s so much to it. I mean, there’s so much you can do on your own. Yeah. And it’s all that’s not to say it’s bad in any way. It’s great. It’s great, because you could just you just get to know yourself on a more and more intimate level. And with that comes, the confidence and the boundaries, and all the things that may have been missing before that led you in that direction.

Casey McGuire Davidson  36:34

So, I don’t know if that’s very concrete thing, though, you know, therapy,

compassion, therapy, right? That’s actually work on.

Yeah, the other thing that has helped me, at least in the self-confidence, and self-compassion, is switching that to being so proud of myself and for every women I women I work with, for actually quitting drinking, for being brave enough to decide that this substance that you know, so much of society puts on a pedestal is not required in your life, and having, you know, the strength to step away from it and be proud of that.

So, you know, I always tell women who are like, look, I really regret not doing it earlier. Like, there are 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of women who would love to be where you are now, who aren’t even listening to podcasts or reading magazines, or reading QuitLit books, who feel trapped, and yet are afraid. So, anything you’re doing on this path, just be really proud of yourself.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  37:42

Yeah, that was really great advice. And it’s hard to do sometimes, because there’s always like, well, I gave up drinking, but I didn’t do this. And I don’t have self-compassion yet. I mean, I hope to just add to anyone’s checklist of what you should be doing. And it’s hard to do. But it’s really important, because it’s a huge, huge thing. Stand up to our society, our culture, the messages, your friends, everything and do that for yourself.

Casey McGuire Davidson  38:09

Yeah, and even just stopping drinking will really help you be more compassionate to yourself, because you’re not constantly beating yourself up and talking terrible writing yourself in the morning and feeling guilty. I mean, all of that. Sort of immediate stuff goes away, once you’ve stopped drinking, and then you get to get to have to deal with the underlying stuff that every single person in this world deals with, right? None of us went through life unscathed.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  38:40

We all have it exactly. I mean, if you would ask me, and I was like, I don’t have any trauma, like what trauma, you know, and that I’ve lived now. I mean, the list is so long.

Casey McGuire Davidson  38:49

And my parents, my therapist had to tell me, I had trauma, right? I would go into her and be like, What is wrong with me? Why can’t I deal with this? Why do I feel anxiety? And then she was like, going back and she’s like, that’s trauma. That’s trauma. And I was like, Is it because like, you think of the big you know, there are always people who have gone through really horrible things and come out the other side. And if you don’t sort of qualify for that you feel like you should be completely together. And I don’t think that you know, if you read any Kristin Neff, or Brené Brown or you know, you name it, it really helps in understanding that.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  39:33

Yes. Isn’t that interesting? I think I think Brené Brown says trauma with a small t right? Like and it is true, like you feel you almost don’t feel worthy of the discussion. If this wasn’t like so terrible that I don’t qualify. Same with drinking. I think people say Oh, well you’re not that bad. So how can you know, you don’t qualify to be sober, qualify for your sob story and keeps us all very quiet.

Casey McGuire Davidson  40:02

Yes, absolutely. And I feel like even talking about struggling with alcohol, it kind of blows my mind that, you know, in the workplace, I used to work at L’Oréal, all the women would talk about anxiety, they would talk about struggles with very anti diet culture, but women will often talk about, you know, their latest cleanse struggles with sugar struggles with weight loss like that conversation, it’s anywhere. No wonder we’re so deep in diet culture in this country.

And yet, any mention of struggling with alcohol, people are terrified to mention that, or it’s like the third rail, right? They’ll talk about being hungover, but not that. And that’s what I hope your magazine is shifting. And all the podcasts out there are shifting in terms of opening up that conversation and making it less taboo. Because if you’re a big drinker, I bet three people in your social circle are also not talking about the fact that they’re really struggling.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  41:03

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I think I love the way you just phrase that because I mean, my magazine is filled with people who are happy to write articles about how they have or had a problem with alcohol. Here I am. Here’s how great it all is. Now, here’s what I did to get that, you know, it’s hopefully making it less taboo, which would then hopefully, encourage more people to get help when they feel that way.

Yeah. And before it before I started the magazine, I mean, people in my age group with older teenage kids, and there were a few that came to me and said, I see you’re making these videos, and I really think I need to stop drinking, what do you do, and we would come in, like I had a bunch of things set up here, we would taste some of the alcohol free. And I’m like if these three people came out of the woodwork immediately, and we live in, I don’t want to say it’s like a big party town. But there’s a very close knit group of people in the schools and the parents and you know that there’s a lot of drinking that goes on. I know if those three came out immediately.

There are many, many more who wake up and think why did I do that? Why don’t I do that again? Why?

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:12

You know, and when people talk about it, the more that that being so scared that life after alcohol sucks, goes away. Like they’re like, You look happy. And you look good. And, you know, I mean, I was I was not my best self when I was hungover. Right. I was not as optimistic.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  42:36

No, yeah, we used to have so many days. I mean, it’s a beautiful out today, and I’m going to go outside, and I wouldn’t be tired. I wanted to be in bed. It was horrible. And I love to summer.

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:47

Yeah, absolutely. I you know, how many days and weeks and months? Did you, you know, operate on 50% capacity, because you were either drunk-ish or hungover? It’s a lot of opportunity cost that you’re not taking advantage of. And one thing that I’ve seen that I wanted to ask you about is, how do women stay motivated and committed to sobriety, after the initial sort of novelty wears off? Right? How do you keep that going? For the longer term?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  43:32

That’s such a good question. I do think it stops being top of mind after a while. You know, even in the beginning, I was like, everything was about mocktails. And try to find something that may, I wanted to feel like an adult, I wanted it to pair well with food because I’m into food and drink. And like there was a lot of and now I’m kind of like, I enjoy it. But it’s not a priority, necessarily. Shelves are filled with mocktails. And they’re all wonderful, but it does become easier.

And then, the first thing that came to mind, though, when you ask that is that we need a support network.

So, the kinds of events and retreats and travel that you’re talking about and the online community, whether it’s on Instagram, or a more formal support group, there’s so many online support groups that are just great. Something in that vein, and it doesn’t have to be your whole life, you know, but just knowing other people who are going through the same thing, and who are joyful, and have advice and are doing fun and exciting thing. I mean, that’s really important. And that’s made a difference for me too.

Casey McGuire Davidson  44:38

Oh, yeah, definitely. The alcohol-free community here in Seattle is pretty amazing. There’s a great group of women and it really helped me when I stopped drinking.

And the other thing I would say is, that most women who stopped drinking, love to socialize. I mean yes, eventually. You get to have a party on your couch by yourself.

But one of my friends who I adore who I’m actually going to Provence with, she was like, We met when she was like 30 days sober. And I was 90 days sober over 8 years ago. So, you know, in an online group, but she used to love to throw these huge dinner parties, you know, listen to her talk. It was like double magnums of wine with like, loose bowls of cigarettes, you know, like, from like, back in the 90s in New York. And so, once she and I stopped drinking, she started hosting these really cool dinner parties for sober women.

And, you know, at this loft in downtown Seattle, that you looked over the crate wheel and Pike Place Market. And it you know, I was a mom of two little kids, I live in the suburbs. And so, I’m starting to get invited to these really cool intellectual gatherings, you know, authors, and there was a stand-up comedian, and you know, going downtown, and I’m like, Alright, sobriety is way fucking cooler than be on my couch, get you drunk.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  46:06

Right. It’s there’s so much more to explore. And you remember it all? And? Yeah, I think it’s great. So, this current issue that’s coming out this week is our summer issue is dedicated to travel and retreats, and all those kinds of events that are going on. And it’s incredible. And our cover story is Susie Streelman from zero proof experiences and just a small part of the interview. But she talks about how she loved to socialize, and she loved food and drink. And she didn’t feel like she really fit into her social circle anymore after she stopped drinking.

So, she started these dinners. And they were so hugely popular. And then they morphed into the sober. Sober In The City weekends with hundreds of people that are just filled with joy and want to be together and experience. Yeah, being so far together and dinners and drinks and yoga and all types of things.

Casey McGuire Davidson  47:02

Yeah, well, I do want to just put in a plug, because Sober In The City is coming to Seattle, September 6 – 8th. And I’m hosting the Friday night meet and greet with an ID zero proof experiences.

So, this episode’s coming out about a month before that event. So, if you’re interested in going there, you know, you can go to zeroproofexperiences.com/Seattle, I’ll link it in the show notes as well. But you know, definitely check it out. If you’re if you’re craving a community of fun. People who are alcohol-free and you want some inspiration.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  47:43

Yes. 100%. They’re great. And actually, we’re sending copies of this summer issue to everyone who attends that we get oh, okay, so I’ll get your goodie bags when you get there.

Casey McGuire Davidson  47:54

Very cool. Yeah, that’ll be great. So, do you have any favorite like, tell me about some of your favorite travel and retreats that are you’re covering in the summer issue?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  48:08

Oh, my goodness. Let me try to remember I think we have a list of how many were there like 30 different groups that are doing sober retreats and travel, including, including slipper in the city, which is run by zero proof experiences. And then I’m going to draw a total blank. No, I know sandbar is running a trip. Where are they going to Morocco, I believe. God, it was very interesting as we put the list together.

So, first of all, is the van Zulan. From sober, Tobia helped us put this list together and she runs retreats in Spain and California. And then she got interested in just promoting the industry as a whole.

Casey McGuire Davidson  49:02

So, she’s put this list on her website and then helped us broaden it. But I think it’s really as if you look at it’ll be on our website too, but at least I can link to it. Oh, thank you.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  49:05

Well, it’ll be on my channel class as well as it’s okay. Yeah, cuz I talk in circles. I can’t remember that.

Casey McGuire Davidson  49:12

There are so many out there so if you are interested, I would definitely check it out. I mean, obviously I’ve been on a couple she recovers retreats. Yes. That were pretty epic. I’m friends with Madeline from happier sober and she just took a group to Croatia which is very cool. And I think there’s something for everyone. I know Madeline’s group was a lot younger. She said the youngest turned 21 on the trip and the oldest might have been 32. It was a lot of single people who are going on the trip together. And that can be very different than some other retreats that you might go on.

So, I think if you’re if you’re interested in that, I know also, Sober Yoga Girl does a lot of retreats in Bali, which is kind of cool. She lets me.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  49:59

I was going to say, it’s so cool to see the lists that there’s Bali, Morocco, South America, they’re everywhere. And they’re not just like little things. They’re amazing trips and retreats and a whole variety all around the world. It’s incredible.

Casey McGuire Davidson  50:17

Yeah, it can be game changing. And so alright, I’m excited.

So yes, I think that one of the things to look at and life after alcohol is getting more, getting more brave, having more adventures, you know, doing things, even if you’re scared to see what life is like without alcohol.

I remember the first time I went on a sober retreat, I was, gosh, maybe a year, alcohol-free. And I kind of was nervous to even tell my husband, right, because I had 2 very little kids, I had never other than with women. He’s known forever, like my college girlfriends gone on a trip by myself. And so, it was this 5 day retreat, where I slept in a yurt. And we had sharing circles and yoga twice a day and a sound bath. And it was just very, very cool. And I came back so energized and excited to keep going.

So, I mean, yes, invest in some of that. And I saved so much money not drinking, right? It was very, very easy to rationalize or justify the cost of some of that, like, I say, over $500 My first month alcohol -ree. So, in a year, that’s $6,000, you can go on a retreat with that money. Yeah.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  51:42

The other thing is you come home, and you have, you are rested. You feel like you actually remember all of it, you experienced real self-care as opposed to wine based self-care, which is not really self-care. It’s a whole different thing. You come home and feel so much more fulfilled. From the experience.

Yeah, I always say to myself, like, even if I’m tired, least I’m not hungover. Like, I feel good. I feel great compared to how I used to feel, even if I’m tired, even if I was up too late, even if like the travel was hard, or whatever, you know that it’s, it’s a whole different game. Yeah,

Casey McGuire Davidson  52:18

Yeah, I love that. Okay, we are going to link to that in the show notes so that anyone who’s interested in even if it’s after this summer, and you’re listening to this, go to those websites, check out those people, usually people have multiple retreats. So just getting an idea of what’s out there picking something that seems to appeal to your level of activity, your level of interest, your age group, the people you resonate with, it can be incredibly cool.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  52:46

I’ll send you a link to we’re putting the list of all the travel providers and retreats on mocktail quest as it’s like a standalone art. I’ll send you a link to that nice leather Summit. And there’s more all the time. Yeah.

Casey McGuire Davidson  53:01

Yeah, so leading into that. I’m curious about your favorite mocktails since you started mocktail quest. What thing first after alcohol is finding what the hell of a drink. So, what are your go-to’s?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  53:15

I, I tend to get on a kick with one thing and stick with that for like three months and then go to the next. So, my first I don’t I don’t talk about this that much. But my first day when I first got sober. There wasn’t that much out there. And I knew of kin you Forex, their kin spreads. And I had that. I was like, this was my lifeline. I took it to parties. It comes in a little cam well back then I think it only came in the large bottle but now it comes in again. Um, that was my first thing, and it has some adaptogens and I would just feel like okay, I have something now when staring at me. That was a nice day. Right now. We don’t want to promote anything like we had some great sponsors. But I will tell you the one thing right now that I’ve been having, we read Kara Strickland who’s a food writer. She’s putting together a tasting guide for us. And one of the things she recommended in our travel article in this issue was called Saito they’re like these Paloma cardamom Paloma sachets, so I’ve been having that they’re still refreshing. And it’s not. It’s like an all-day thing. It’s just kind of like water and flavoring. But I really That’s great.

Casey McGuire Davidson  54:35

Yeah, I will change every three months. I’m like I have a new thing and then I stick to that one thing for that’s, Do you have any favorites? For me? I do for sure. So athletic brewing. They’re upside down and they’re golden is my absolute favorite. My husband like laughs at me because I have so much in the house. Just like when I was drinking red wine I never want to run out I also love their run wild IPA. So, I actually love them. so much.

I am an ambassador for them like I lobbied, like, Hey, let me be an ambassador. So, anyone listening, if you want 20% off your first order on their website at Athletic Brewing Company, just use the code KCD20. And you can get that I also love groovy GruVi Their nonalcoholic Prosecco is so good. You can use it for mimosas. In the morning. The first time I ever drank it. I had to check the label like three times it tasted so much like Prosecco. I was like, are we sure that this is not a colleague, but it’s 0.0. And they have a Karoubi has great bubbly Rosé. And, you know, surely brute su r e l y. I absolutely love their brute.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  55:49

You know, that’s my, that’s one of my favorites.

Casey McGuire Davidson  55:52

Yeah, but I haven’t tried some of them next. During Sunday night. I know there’s nonalcoholic gin and you know, you name it. Got it.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  56:01

So, to that are, I will just mention our wonderful partners. We have some partners in the event space, zero proof experiences and sober topia. And then in the we have supermom squad is one of our partners. And then there’s two brands one’s called Tweedle. That’s a brand new botanical spirit, kind of like in the gin realm that’s so refreshing that as part of my minute, too. I love cardamom. And then absent in spirits, they have a citrus, they have least citrus and floral based flavors out of South Africa. And they are a great partner to us, too. And very unique, very unique flavors and a wide range of flavors.

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:37

Very cool. Well send me those links, and I will share them out as well, because I haven’t heard of them. But I would love to try those out. Yes.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  56:47

Okay. And I’ll send you all of that. And oh, I don’t want to leave people out ditch the drink is also one of our partners with the APRC coaching organization.

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:58

Yeah, well, that’s cool. I’ve actually many people you’ve mentioned I’ve had on the show. So, I’ve had Emily, from sober mom squad and Heather from ditch the drink.

And I am going to have Susie from zero proof experiences before this episode about how to socialize alcohol-free. So, you know, it’s great, very, you know, your partners are great leaders in the alcohol-free space. And I think anyone listening to this, just know there’s a huge universe out there.

That is pretty exciting. And I feel like it’s like pulling a string, you know, you discover one person, and they lead you to another and they lead you to another. So, if you are feeling alone or isolated, or like you’ll have no fun when you quit drinking, I’m hoping that this conversation will at least spark some ideas about life after alcohol and how good it can be.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  57:53

Absolutely. Yes. Well, this has been great.

Casey McGuire Davidson  57:58

Any other thoughts that you want to leave us with about things that people should be thinking about after early sobriety?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  58:06

Yeah, I mean, we covered so much. I think the key takeaway, as you’re exploring all these things, is just to remember that there’s no, it’s not a race. There’s no end point. You know, this goes on for the rest of your life. And it’s whatever you want it to be. And giving yourself time and allowing yourself to make mistakes, all those things.

It’s, it’s all okay, you know, you’re on this, you’re on the other side of this of the alcohol, part of your life. And now there’s this whole rest of your life to explore and develop all these things and learn about yourself. Learn about other people. So I don’t like to add to anyone’s to do list including my own sense of process. And it’s, it should be it should feel good to you.

Casey McGuire Davidson  58:55

Yeah. And no pressure. I have to say people ask me what I did in year two. And I was like, yeah, a year two for me was all about joy. Like I got kittens. I lowered the bar. I did not put my son in sober summer baseball, I was just like, Nope, I want to lay on my hammock and work in my veggie garden and read novels and play with my kittens. And I went on sober retreats.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  59:27

So if you have quit drinking, and all you want to do is lay in the sunshine, do

that. Like that, because that’s what you need. And it’s great for you.

Casey McGuire Davidson  59:32

Yeah, you do not have to like, to start a second job or go to coaching score, begin a magazine or a podcast, like, read some great novels that have nothing to do with alcohol and be happy.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  59:43

Yeah, that’s the whole point. Right?

Casey McGuire Davidson  59:47

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you find your magazine? All that good stuff.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  59:54

Thank you. So, we can be found – After Magazine. It’s aftermagazine.com. And we have a print magazine and a digital subscription as well that includes a flipbook of our quarterly magazine and at mocktailquest.com. Which is a search engine for all things alcohol free including shops, restaurants, bars sobriety, support, events, a travel everything we’ve been talking about. Again, that’s mocktailquest.com. And I’ll be working on that this summer while I travel making some videos for it.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:30

Oh, that’s going to be a lot of fun. Where are you going this summer?

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  1:00:34

I’m going to Rome and then down the coast of Italy, on our way to Positano and then to Capri.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:43

Oh my gosh, that sounds incredible. Well, I hope you have the best time. Thank you for coming on. I’d love this conversation.

Nicole Pietrandrea Hough  1:00:51

Thank you so much. It was great to be here.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Hello Someday podcast.

If you’re interested in learning more about me, the work I do, and access free resources and guides to help you build a life you love without alcohol. Please visit hellosomedaycoaching.com. And I would be so grateful if you would take a few minutes to rate and review this podcast so that more women can find it. And join the conversation about drinking less and living more.