Resources Related To Living Single and Sober:

The Unexpected Joy Of Being Single By Catherine Gray

Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make—and Keep—Friends

Bella DePaulo books on Singles and Singlism

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Single in Sobriety: How To Maximize Happiness, Fulfillment And Be Your Own Best Life Partner

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking less, life coach, party of one, single life, Meghan Keane, NPR Life Kit, destigmatizing singleness, singlism, social connections, emotional coping, self-soothing, self-worth, self-compassion, relationship values, social rituals, rumination techniques, making a choice, intentionality, building friendships, community building, single in sobriety, sobriety, happiness, fulfillment, joy, be your own, best, life partner, regenerative, regulate your mood, solitude style, mindfulness

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Meghan Keane

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a buzz, how to sit with your emotions when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there.

Today, we are talking about Party Of One, a book by Meghan Keane on

how to be your own best life partner and exploring being single in a society that often prioritizes couples or individualism.

I think this will be a great discussion for anyone out there who is single and is navigating life with not drinking in a world where you’re dating or you’re alone, or you feel lonely or you’re just don’t enjoy social situations where people constantly ask you about your personal life or dating or being with someone, but also, the book has some great advice for anyone in terms of how to really develop your relationship with yourself, how to find happiness and how to make better friendships.

So, Meghan Keane, she’s the author of Party Of One: Be Your Own Best Life Partner.

She’s the founding and supervising editor of NPRs life kit. And if you don’t know it, it’s a fantastic show. I always listen to it. It brings listeners advice and actionable information about personal finances, health, parenting, relationships and more So Meghan, welcome.

Meghan Keane  02:43

Casey, thank you so much. Great to be here.

Casey McGuire Davidson  02:45

Yeah, I mentioned that I was really excited to see that you were writing this book, because I know a lot of listeners to this show are single, and I’ve been married for 22 years now, so I don’t personally have a lot of experience in navigating the challenges of that. I navigate tons of challenges related to being married, right?

Yeah, but, but I thought your book was fantastic in sort of exploring all the pieces around being single in society.

Meghan Keane  03:19

Yeah. First of all, thank you for reading it and getting something out of it.

I, you know, you said that you know. You know I’m not single. I’ve been married for over 20 years, but you have single friends in your life. You have single family members, people you know, coworkers, just you run into single people all the time. And something that I think about a lot in writing this book is, well, if someone’s maybe not single, they definitely know someone who is, and how we treat those people.

I think, just makes for an easier life for everyone involved, but and also just because you’re not single, you know you are your own person, right? And a lot of this book, I wanted to dive into how destigmatizing singleness actually helps everyone, because people might stay in a relationship for far longer than they knew, need to, just because they’re worried about, quote, unquote, being “alone”. And so, I wanted to really think about, well, why is that? Why do we put so much pressure on all of us? It just feels very unnecessary and not very productive. I never find shame to be a particularly productive feeling, but it does take a lot of work and thinking about, how can you step aside from it, and, you know, live more authentically?

Casey McGuire Davidson  04:29

Yeah, absolutely, I resonate with every single one of those pieces, and it’s, I hear, so I do private coaching with clients who are working on sobriety, and I hear the difficulty, both if they’re in an unsatisfying marriage or partnership and yet are nervous or scared what life would look like without their partner, even though they’re not as happy where they are right now and then, also people who are single and navigating the. Life in the way that you describe in the book.

So, just to start, I love that in the book you share so much of your personal story. But can you tell us what inspired you to write party of one or share it?

Meghan Keane  05:15

Absolutely! So, it comes from a place of personal experience, you know, for over, you know, 14 years, basically, most of my adult life I have been single. And I don’t love the phrase chronically single. That makes it sound like it’s some kind of illness or disease and, but I know what people mean is that what they’re trying to say. They’re Google for long periods of time where they’re single. And while I knew that I had this great life, I had really great friends, my family’s nearby. I have this job I love. I have an apartment that I love. I still was feeling a lot of shame around singleness, and it really got me mad at myself and the world. And I was thinking, Well, gosh, I know in my head, in my rational brain, it is awesome to be single. I’m not compromising on my life or my values, but my heart and my soul needed a little help. It’s the shame was still kind of see seeping in. And I was like, Okay, I need tools to help better bridge those two things, my head and my heart.

And so, Party Of One was my exploration to thinking, okay, when people say being single is awesome, like really feeling that. I was like, Okay, what are the steps? You know, I run Life Kit, which is all about actionable advice.

So, I was like, I need this broken down for myself. So, I was like, Okay, what are the things that are troubling me about being single that I feel like shouldn’t be troubling me. And I was thinking, Okay, I’m going to break them down into discrete sections. So thinking about, what are the myths that I’ve been told about relationships and marriage, particular partnership? What about this? You know, the stigma. I’m clearly harboring against single people like myself, and how do I break that down? How do I think about thoughts and managing my emotions?

So, Party Of One came from me just being like, I know singleness is a perfectly wonderful and valid place to be, and I might be single for the rest of my life. I might find a partner. I might find a partner and then be single again. So, I think this is, these are just tools that are I need to live an easier, more peaceful life.

Casey McGuire Davidson  07:21

Yeah, I love that. And it’s funny that mentioned that a lot of people who listen to this might know Katherine Gray, who wrote the unexpected joy of being sober. It’s a book that that’s pretty popular in the sober community, but her second book was the unexpected joy of being single, and I thought that was a great one as well. So, I mean, I think this is something that a lot of people are thinking about and trying to resolve in their mind. You mentioned the myths, and I’d love to hear more about that.

Meghan Keane  07:52

Yeah. Well, where do I start? So, one of my favorite myths is, this idea of what we consider, especially in America, traditional marriage. And first, my first question is always, well, traditional to who? Right? Like traditional marriage? When you hear it in the American context, typically means heterosexual. It means monogamous. And, you know, we have evidence that shows that there were American eugenicists, you know, in the turn of the century that were creating alleged self-help books that were promoting white, monogamous, heterosexual marriage. And so, what traditional is a very squishy term, right? Because it just means it’s traditional to a very specific group of people in this instance. But you dig even further, and there’s this idea that traditional marriage, or that this idea that everyone has to be partnered up with the House and the two kids and the white picket fence, the classic, Leave It to Beaver, kind of style, even if you don’t think you want that, people tell you want that, right? So, we’re up against this image a lot.

But the reality is, in my talks with historian Stephanie Coons, who’s written all of all about marriage and how we think about it, is that that time, the 1950s kind of ideal, Leave it to bear. Leave It to Beaver. Mindset of marriage was actually a total blip. It was a speed bump of marriage. It was never how marriage was for eons before and definitely not after.

So, what happened in that time period was. It was after World War Two. We had, you know, men coming back from war who were eager for stability. We had the highest spike in, let me take that again, because I don’t know if the actual highest, we had an increase so, so we had men coming back from war, right, and they’re looking for stability. We had an increase of wages for the first time in a while that combined with technological advances for things like washing machines and all these consumer products. So, it was a time when we actually could have a single breadwinner home, where you did have one person at home with the kids, one person. In making the money. And what happened pretty quickly was that.

Then, after 1960 marriage rates started to go down, and they’ve been going consistently down for years. And also, what we’ve seen is the average age, the median age of the when people get married. And so, we think that, you know, for history, everyone got married so young, and they did for the most part. But actually, in the 1950s to 1960 in America, we see this interesting dip where women were marrying earlier than they were even 50, 60 years ago. So, it was this kind of like perfect storm that has created this faux nostalgia of what traditional marriage is, but it was actually a total speed bump in American history, in the history of marriage, is what Stephanie coons told me. So, I just think it’s interesting that we think of that as, again, quote, unquote, “traditional” when it was never traditional to begin with. It was an anomaly.

Casey McGuire Davidson  10:57

When I wonder if that also was you mentioned, Leave It to Beaver, but the time period when television sort of became more of a thing, and so people at that moment were watching more shows about that, and just creating more and more of those.

Meghan Keane  11:14

Yeah, I mean, media is powerful, like, you know, people like to write off TV as some kind of machine that rots your brain, right with stories, but it informs what you think is normal. And if you are seeing people, you know, people like the honeymooners and, you know, Lucy and Desi, you’re thinking, Okay, well, two people get together. This is the type of marriage they have. They have a kid. I’m your subconsciously trying to model that, or at least thinking that’s what you’re supposed to do, even if you’re on the outsides of that, if it’s not your norm?

Yeah, absolutely.

And so, you also talk about sort of the stigma of being single, or how it’s portrayed in society in your book. And I thought that was really interesting, because I hadn’t thought about it that way. I hadn’t thought about, you know it in terms of being a stigma or and so will you tell us more about that?

Oh, absolutely. So, a term that I came across when I first started looking into this is, this idea of singlism. It’s a term that’s coined by Bella DePaulo, who’s written a ton about singleness. In fact, she’s kind of a pioneer about research about singleness and a lot of the stigmas that we, a lot of us, hold against singles. And but she’s also has this concept of being single at heart. So, people who actually feel like being single is the best way for them their whole life. And I know she identifies as that.

So, singlism, in her view, is this marginalization, discrimination against singles. And you could say, well, how does that actually, what does that actually look like? It means housing discrimination. It means make, you know, thinking about healthcare. You’re getting less and less benefits. They’re often more expensive. It means within our, you know, our day to day work, maybe it means that a single coworker with no kids is expected to stay later or work different hours than a coworker with kids. It means just assuming really negative things about single people, that they’re always lonely, that they’re somehow sad or pathetic. And it’s once you start to kind of break down some of those ideas, you start to see, well, they are inherently discriminatory and demeaning, and it just doesn’t make sense. The more you think about it, just because someone is not with someone romantically, we all of a sudden think that they’re not as worthy or have good self-esteem, or any of these things.

So, it’s something that Bella DePaulo has told me, and you know it’s part of her work, is how you can push back against singlism. Things like, celebrating your friends, your single friends birthdays, showing up for them, if you’re in a marriage or in a romantic partnership, making time for just them, not always assuming that your romantic partner is coming with you to all these events when you hang out with that friend, treating deaths of their pets or their friends as serious as it would be a spouse in your mind.

So, singlism is so pervasive, but it is, is, once you see it, it is, I think, easy to correct it, and to think all I have to do is reach out to this person who I know is single, check in on them. You know, not just assume. I’m going to, you know, talk about my marriage or something all the time. So, that’s why, you know, coming back to what I said earlier about how this book I hope, my secret agenda is that I hope married people read this book too, and or people who want to get married too, to think about, you know, once they cross that threshold, or if they cross that threshold into a couple, how they treat single people, because I just think it makes for an easier life, and we just treat people better that way.

Casey McGuire Davidson  14:46

You know, what’s interesting is on the flip side of being married, sometimes you feel like you don’t have the freedom, or you’re not allowed to do things that you would do before you were partnered up. Like, so this last summer, I went with three girlfriends who were sober to Provence, and we went for two weeks. Beautiful. And it was my first, like, international trip with friends since before I got married, which is insane, but I felt like, okay, we can go to Santa Barbara for a weekend. Maybe we can go camping. But you know, if I’m going to Europe for two weeks, I should be doing it with my husband, like it’s selfish or not allowed, or whatever it is. And I thought that was really interesting, that I hadn’t done it before.

Meghan Keane  15:36

What made you all of a sudden be like, Oh yeah, I do want to do this, if you don’t mind me asking?

Casey McGuire Davidson  15:41

No, well, you know what’s funny is, once I stopped drinking, I became much more independent, and you had to have more boundaries, and you have to take care of yourself better. So, for example, my husband, at some point, was going on like, 3 or 4 fishing trips a year. It was like, each one seemed to be an annual event, which was funny, because I had an 8 year old and 2 year old, and I started getting really resentful, like I have full time. I’ve got kids, and this is crap and a good friend of mine said to me, is it that you don’t want him to be happy, or is it that you’re not happy? And I was like, That’s powerful. So, I started planning like, I went on a sober retreat, and I went to Santa Barbara with friends. And I was like, he’s a parent. He can stay with the two year old, but he felt like other people would judge me. And then, you know, the trips just got bigger and bigger that I went on a retreat to Mexico, and then three of my friends were like, Let’s go to Provence. And I was like, You know what I want to, so I think the more you do it, the easier it is to do it again.

Meghan Keane  16:51

Yeah. I also think naming why you’re doing something like that and why it’s important to you is also helpful. Look, I’m not a relationship expert, but I think a big theme of my book is just intentionality. And so, you know, thinking like I want to go on this trip with these girlfriends, because I want to experience Europe sober and, you know, and do that. I mean, I’m assuming, I’m projecting. But, and I also really want to connect with these women that I know don’t really get to see all that often. And I think expressing that to if you’re single, to just yourself, is really important. If you were married to your partner, is important because then they see and or, you know, you see in yourself why this is important, and then you then, I don’t know, it just to me, it just seems like putting all of your eggs in one basket for your partner is a lot, right? It’s a lot to put. It’s too much pressure to in a relationship, to have everything be solely focused socially, especially on just a partnership. And what’s interesting too, is I found in some research that married people often have fewer social connections than single

Casey McGuire Davidson  17:57

Yeah. And I think was fascinating. And I think what you’re getting at is like, you think, Well, I have to do things with my husband so it, you know, you like, you love your husband.

Meghan Keane  18:01

It makes sense. You want to share those relationships and those friendships with them. But, you know, I, what I hope that people get from the book is that this idea that singles are somehow sad and lonely, it’s just, it’s like, it’s just not true, like they have, they have more social connections. I think so single people are really good at forging a path for themselves and making those connections and reaching out to people, because they don’t have the Setup System of a marriage to think, well, we’re going to have dinner with this couple, or we’re going to see my parents. You know, the you have to make a lot of that social calendar for yourself. So, I think, you know, stepping outside of the routine and being like, why am I doing this? Why do I need this is really important no matter who you are.

Casey McGuire Davidson  18:49

Yeah, and I think that sometimes people you mentioned fewer social connections, like sometimes in a marriage, you’re really lonely for friends too, because you just get in this routine. And what’s interesting is my girlfriends and I, the time that it’s easier for us to get together is, weirdly Saturday nights, like, when we’re like, Oh, can we do this day, that day, this day? We’re all like, well, we’re free on Saturday. So that’s when we kind of get together, sort of like, back in the days when we were, you know, on our own. Because honestly, for me, when I’m married, I’m like, I’m not doing anything with sitting down and watching a movie.

So, um, but you, you mentioned loneliness, and I think that’s, you know, there is this idea that you write about that single doesn’t necessarily mean lonely. You talked about the social connectedness, but what else goes into that?

Meghan Keane  19:47

So, there’s a misconception about what loneliness even is, right? So, I won’t discount the real health effects of loneliness, right? It does. It can. Chronic loneliness can lead to poor health outcomes, right? It is a health crisis. Are you a Surgeon General has said as much, but where I think people could place a little bit more attention is the difference between alone and loneliness, right? Loneliness is a state of rejecting being alone, like you’re dissatisfied with being alone and alone just simply means you’re just that. You’re by yourself. It doesn’t mean that you necessarily automatically feel bad or there’s shame attached to it.

I think where people unnecessarily put this shame on it, especially the shame that single people feel, is that alone equals lonely. And that’s not the case.

There are two separate things. And once you know that, you can start to kind of redirect your loneliness or your aloneness, into useful things, right?

So, on one hand, the aloneness side of when you’re by yourself, you can transform that into solitude, which is a positive state of being alone. It’s regenerative. Use regenerative. Usually, it can even just be 15, 20 minutes. Like, studies have shown that that can help, like, write, self-regulate your mood. And something that I talk about in the book is like, kind of finding your solitude style. Because I think sometimes people just don’t know what to do with alone time.

And so, I’m I tell people, think about a creative project. Think about how loneliness can actually connect you to the others if you are and what I mean by that is, you know, you can think about volunteering, you know, making birthday cards, you know, cooking a meal for someone that you know that’s going through a hard time, like using that alone time to feel connected to others. Or you could work on a project, like, I, for me, like, kind of putting a box around the solitude can help sometimes, especially if you’re someone who you’re like, watching the clock and you’re like, oh my god, it’s been 10 minutes, and I’m bored of solitude. You can kind of like, micro dose it as it were, like, you don’t need to have a cabin where you have, you know, five, you know, days alone and then with loneliness. Once you know that loneliness is this state of being dissatisfied with being alone, that’s when that’s your body telling you that’s a signal to seek out social connection.

And there’s this researcher at a University of Chicago. He died a few years ago, but he was kind of a pioneer in loneliness research. John Cacioppo. And I love the way he talks about loneliness, because it just destigmatizes it. And it made so much sense to me. He says that it is this biological signal akin to thirst or hunger. It’s just your body telling you, hey, I need something. And I think that’s so wonderful, because then you can be like, Oh, okay, I don’t feel guilty about needing a glass of water when I’m thirsty, so why feel shame when I feel lonely and look, I know it’s easier said than done, sometimes, depending on who you are and how you operate or what your access is, but to get that social connection, but it is your signal, I think, to reach out.

And I think that is helpful, because you can see more off ramps into how you can get what you need better when you start to see these, these differences. I think that’s really interesting. And I also think it’s something that we don’t talk about enough about, you know, things like when you feel lonely.

Casey McGuire Davidson  23:26

I remember being in covid. When we were all in lockdown, and probably eight months in, I happened to, you know, go to an island near me. A good friend of mine had moved over there, and we were eating outside, and we started talking about how down we felt and how lonely we felt, even surrounded by people, You know, like our family, because we didn’t have anyone else. And it was really interesting to me that we both felt that way. We ended up like doing a walk every Friday morning and just talking on the phone for like an hour, and it was amazing. But we were both in our own bubbles, feeling the same way, which was kind of shitty, and not knowing that anyone else there felt that way because we didn’t talk about it.

Meghan Keane  24:06

Yeah, it’s so interesting how a lot of the human experiences is learning that other people just feel the same way you do, right? That you’re not the first person. The good news and the bad news is you’re not the first person to feel this. And that’s where I feel like something like self-compassion really can help, because one of the main tenets of self-compassion is obviously self-kindness, being like, it’s okay that I feel lonely, and then the next step is a common humanity, right? It’s to push out and be like, remember, other people feel this way. I’m not the only person feeling this way, and I feel like that practice can then help you to do things like what you did with your friend being like, Hey, I’m feeling really lonely. I know I can’t be the only one. Like, how are you doing?

I write in the book about how a lot of building friendships and community is just being the starter, being the person who makes the first invitation the hand read. Out, the phone, call, the text, because oftentimes people are so relieved when you finally do. I can’t think of a single time that I’ve reached out to a friend or potential new friend, and they’ve been like, why are you telling me that? Why are you asking me that? Like no one has ever been upset at me, even if they you know, can’t do it or have to reschedule or can’t talk right that second, people are always grateful that you reach out.

Casey McGuire Davidson  25:22

Yeah, no, completely. I mean, and as an adult, it’s weirdly hard to go from like we see each other in social situations for me to text friends, meaning like you access them stuff. And that was a big step for me, even in sobriety, I met a new friend, and we were sort of online friends, and we’d had lunch, and then one day, we had a common thing we want to talk about. I texted her from my son’s baseball game, and she texted back, and all of a sudden we were, like, text friends when you’re bored or annoyed. And like, I was bored as hell at my son’s baseball game. Like it was funny. I had all the time in the world, so that was awesome. And I told you, before we jumped on that, I was really excited that you had a chapter that talked about friendship, because adult friendships are sometimes hard to cultivate. And you know, I this book looked great about platonic the science of attachment can help you make and keep friends. But if someone’s listening to this and they are a little bit stagnant in their friendships, or you’ve fallen into patterns, or you need some new friends who are single or not? How do you approach that?

Meghan Keane  26:44

Yes, so I would say for the stagnant question, that’s something in the age of having to calendar every part of your life feels so real, and then you’re like, making, trying to make plans with the friends, and you’re like, I can’t see you that Thursday, but maybe in 2 months. And then, it just feels like a work appointment at that point, and then you have to do, like, there’s this concept I’ve heard about, about, like, how a lot of friendships these days are, like, catch up friendships, rather than experiential friendships, where you’re just spending time being like, well, how have your last 2 months been and then you’re not actually making new memories together. So, I think from that, you can think about, okay, what do new memories actually look like? And that’s, I think, kind of the beauty of, like, maybe, you know, being in a sober, sober, curious community, is you can break free of, like, the whole like, let’s just get a drink, kind of construct, you know, and be like, Let’s do putt, putt. Let’s do crafts. Let’s take a walk. Let’s go to the movies, like, let’s, you know, do this, like silly theme party, and you can help me put it on. Like, you can get more creative, I think. And then, yeah, making memories is one way to think about a stagnant friendship.

And then another thing is just, it’s a mindfulness tenant, but it’s to just get really curious about your friends again. This is something that Robert Waldinger talks about.

He’s at Harvard. He did this large study called the Harvard adult development study. He was it’s been a study that’s been happening for like 80 years.

So, he’s like the fourth Director, but they studied these men for over like decades, like 80 years, and they found that one of the best predictors of a long, happy, healthy life was, was friends, was just, was any kind of social like interaction and tie. And his advice was, ask your friends questions that you haven’t before, you know, be like, Hey, I haven’t ever asked you about that. I’ve been thinking about this. What’s your thoughts on that? Or tell me about this part of your past, because you probably know the bios, and you know the stats of your friends, but digging a little deeper that can often get you out of the well, how was your last week kind of routine, and then making friends. Making friends is hard, right? Because you never know what the other person is looking for right at that time. Like, you might be in a moment, you’re like, I am going to really try to make a lot of new friends. And other people are like, I’m good, like, I’ve been in that. I’ve been in those like, kind of scenarios myself, to be honest, where I’m like, I’m either, like, really into making new friends, or I’m just like, the dance card is full for right now, but staying open, I think, is, is nice.

So, in terms of making new friends again, being the starter, if you’re, if they’re, if you’re, if you’re, like, This reminded me of you. Or would you want to check this out? Like, I know you mentioned that, like, even offhand, yeah, you’d be surprised how people follow through. Like, I met relatively new friend of mine a year ago at a birthday party. She heard I was writing this book, and she’s like, I think it’s cool. You’re writing a book. I would love to hear more. And we and she invited me to go the to the park with our dogs. And then she did this really great thing that I loved, which was she sent a follow up text after we hung out, and she was like, it was so great to see you tonight to talk about the book. And you know what? I’m friends with her still, and she still sends me texts like that. She would just be like, “it was great having dinner tonight”. Like, I’m so glad to hear about this exciting part of your life or something like that. So, yeah, when in the case of, like, making new friends, yeah, being the starter and following up and just being really curious about them, I think.

Casey McGuire Davidson  30:09

Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I have taken to when I meet someone, I like, Oh, my God, you’re awesome. Do you want to hang out? And people love hearing their grades, right? And, you know, just the people that I’m like, I think you’re cool, I’d want to be friends and that, I mean, it feels awkward at first, but then it’s a really easy way to connect with people. And, you know, I only do it with people where I’ve got the vibe that I’m like, oh yeah, we could be totally you know what’s funny, I wanted to mention that the fears of so many people when they’re looking at stopping drinking is that when you stop drinking, you’re going to lose all your friends. You’re going to. It’ll be like isolation and deprivation, and either you won’t be able to hang out with people, or they won’t want you to because you’re not drinking.

And when I actually stopped drinking, you know, I made more friends in a single year than I had in the previous 3 years, and it was because, you know, you’re talking online. I know it sounds weird, but I met most of my sober friends and online groups, and then a bunch of them happened to be in Seattle, so we started having dinner parties, but they knew more about my life than my neighbors, my best friends, the people I worked out with, because you have to get real really quick. And so, if something’s stressing you out or bothering you or you have a new joy. You tell them about it, because it’s a part of that evolution. You have that vulnerability.

So, when you mention catch up friends versus experiential friendships, a lot of the people I know and interact with, even when we went out drinking to bars or dinners, it was that, like, catch up friendship. It wasn’t, how are you feeling, what’s going on with you? And then also, like getting curious when, like doing different things that aren’t just going for happy hour, going for drinks that are, like the easy button. When I quit drinking, I did this, like wanderlust triathlon, where you ran a 5k and then it was yoga. Have you heard of these? It was yoga, meditation.

Meghan Keane  32:28

I’ve heard of variations of these things. Yeah, that’s funny.

Casey McGuire Davidson  32:31

Face painting. It was incredible. And I never would have done it if I hadn’t been like, all right, what can I do that doesn’t involve alcohol? You know, all that?

Meghan Keane  32:41

Yeah. I mean, humans crave novelty. It’s just, you’re also just like making fun for yourself, which is great. I mean, it’s interesting.

You mentioned the thing about making more friends when you became sober. I mean, I, first of all, I think that’s amazing. I and, well, 2 other things is that, one that I think you probably already able to go deep with the that group, like you said, because it’s inherent to what it means to be sober and but you also found people who had similar values as you Yes, and that community kind of awakened. It seemed like these values that you kind of maybe knew were important. I’m projecting, by the way, but yeah, it was like a nice in so I and then you’re right, like, I think people can find these friendship avenues by finding groups where they share values. I know it’s like the common thing, it’s like, find hobbies you like, it’s true. But then also finding subgroups where, yeah, your value, values align.

Casey McGuire Davidson  33:36

I think that’s just an easier shortcut to connection and a shared experience and understanding. Like, just like you can talk to anyone and they’re like, Oh, I’m on day 60, or I stopped drinking three months ago, or, like, a year, and you’re immediately like, Oh, I got you. I know what that’s like, even if our life experiences are totally different.

Meghan Keane  33:58

Oh, yeah. And the other thing I wanted to say about that is that Marisa Franco, who wrote, Platonic. She told me that it can often be helpful to look for what she calls transitioners, so people who are in the midst of a big trans life transition. They’re getting divorced, maybe they became recently single, maybe they stopped drinking, or maybe they just moved those people are usually hungry for change and more receptive to friends sometimes. So those are people who are like, Yes, I’m interested in this because I need more connection now. I need different types of connection. And those are often the people I feel like are best able to reciprocate within friendships. And you can pick up on that pretty quickly. I mean, like you talked about, it’s the vibe. It’s not just the friendship chemistry, but it’s also chemistry, but it’s also, are you open to, like, wanting to hang out and interest, explore this? Yeah, there’s interest, right?

Exactly. So, um, yeah, I think, like, the transition even, like, even, in my personal assessment, I feel like you can also think of transitions as just, like, even a mindset you’re having. You’re like, I don’t know, like, when I started. And even before I started writing this book, I was writing more, and I was like, Well, I would love to have a community where I could go and write. And I found this great salon, like, down the street from me. And it was, I was like, Well, this is great, like I all I did was say, I want to do this now. And I found it kind of fell in my lap this community. So, it was really nice.

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®.

 

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Casey McGuire Davidson  35:20

I found that even with entrepreneurship or podcasting, I’ve made a lot of friends who are podcasters, which is really cool because, again, you have that shared project and interest, and you need people to talk to who are doing the same thing you mentioned values earlier, and one of the things I loved in your book was you start talking about goals versus values, and that the things that bring fulfillment are often connected to your values. Can you talk about that and also how that connects to being single and sort of shifting your perspective there?

Meghan Keane  35:59

Yeah. So, this idea came to me from Dr. Pooja Lakshman, who wrote, Real Self-Care, which is a wonderful book. I encourage everyone to read it. And she kind of blew my mind about this idea that values and goals are pretty different. Actually, we love to think of goals as just something that we all have to make, right? We’re always told like, what do you want to do? What do you want to be in 5 years? But we often don’t really think about the values underneath those goals. And I think it’s a worthy endeavor.

So, the way that Pooja talked to me about it is that goals are the things you do, and then values are the way you do them. And so, what you can think about is like, yes, it’s totally fine to have a goal, right in mind, something you want to do. But I think what’s really helpful is to think, okay, but do my actual values support this goal? And from there, then you can also think that the goal can also it’s an outcome, right? It’s like, you know, I’m going to get married before 30, some arbitrary goal like that, that has a very hard pass fail, right kind of bar, or I’m going to write 3 books before I’m 40, or whatever it is, things that have a real clear like, either you did them or you didn’t do them, and I feel like that’s just so much pressure that I don’t know why we all do that. It just seems unnecessary to me.

So, what is a kinder path and makes you feel more authentic? Is something that Pooja introduced me to is this idea of being like, okay, what are my values driving what I want to do? And she talks about this, what, how? Why about breakdown of values when it comes to thinking about how you want to move forward with something you want to try. So, you know, maybe you’re thinking, okay, the what I want to get married. Okay, well, how are you going to do that? And it’s like, well, date a lot, and spend all my time, you know, scrolling, and that’s just not scrolling, swiping is the word. I’m going to spend all of my time swiping on dating apps and only doing that, and then the why is, like, Well, I just been told that I’m supposed to get married. Like, maybe that value, the goal, excuse me, is not exactly what you thought it was going to be. So, I think it. Once you ask, like, what is the value under your goal, it becomes really clear why you’re doing it, or why not you’re doing it. And I just think it’s a more helpful way to kind of kick the tires on the things you think you want or and let’s say you are single, and you decide, yeah, I want to enter into a partnership. But then you can think about, okay, the part of the value that I want is community or family. And then if you focus on that, rather than I have to get married or partnership, you can start to see how things are a bit more flexible.

So, let’s say you don’t get married, or you find the romantic partner, okay, well, maybe you start thinking about moving closer to a friend. Maybe you want to have a kid on your own. Maybe you start to see life is not as rigid, and how you start expressing values rather than being so squarely focused on goals.

Casey McGuire Davidson  39:05

Yeah, and I that resonated with me, because I don’t know if you know Danielle Laporte, but she wrote a book called, The Desire Factor. And she talks very similarly about the idea that we set all these goals and we’re like, Okay, I’m going to get this promotion, or I’m going to do this thing, and then when you achieve the goal, you still don’t feel the way you wanted to feel or get you know, you just set the next goal. And she talks about desire based goals, but it’s the idea of, okay, I want this promotion, but why? What is the feeling I want to have when I achieve that goal and that it’s much more powerful to say, Okay, I want to feel secure, or I want to feel content, or I want to feel, you know, pride, and say, Okay, right now. What? What would I do to feel content or secure or confidence, or whatever it is, because the feeling you think you’re going to get when you do X might not be true. And so, I just thought that was interesting to focus more on, like the desired feelings that you want in your life, sort of like your why, then the what.

Meghan Keane  40:25

Oh, totally. Because then you can, yeah, like, there’s the flexibility comes in. And you know that something that, what that sounds like is hedonic adaptation, this concept of, once you get the thing you think you want, your hype, your happiness, spikes a little bit temporarily, and then it kind of goes back to this set point, and what I found in my research is that your happiness set point can be leveled up a little bit, and it’s actually more of a worthy effort, more satisfying effort, to focus on just maintaining Your own happiness, rather than focusing, focusing on one single thing, right? Because things like being mindful, being like, doing things that make you feel good, having enriching hobbies and social ties, those are the things that are going to raise your happiness more than one goal. I think about a friend of mine who he used to work a weekend shift, and he’s like, Man, if I could only get off the weekend shift, I would be so much happier. And in a way, he was. But then he’s like, I still think I would be happier if my job changed in this way. You know, it was like, there was still something next beyond that. So, yeah, it just is. For me, it just allows for so much more flexibility about how you are seeking happiness.

Casey McGuire Davidson  41:44

Yeah, and it reminded me about the I don’t I love the book Atomic Habits by James Clear. And the reason I like it is he talks about outcome based goals, right? Like, I want to run a 10k or half marathon, or I want to write a book, and how it’s much more powerful to have identity based goals. Like, I’m a runner, I’m a writer. Now, what that means is, you don’t need to run the half marathon, but you you’re a runner. So, you run every day, and when you stop drinking, you kind of do the same thing, right? You’re like, I’m going to hit 100 days alcohol-free. I’m going to not drink for 6 months. That’s an outcome based goal. It’s super important to hit those but when it becomes really powerful and more easy is to flip it to an identity based habit, like I no longer drink because it’s out of alignment with what I want to do, or I’m alcohol-free because when I drink, I feel like crap, but it you know, you have that inner identity as a nondrinker, as opposed to, I’m going to a certain line, and then I’ll see what happens.

Meghan Keane  42:53

Yeah, that makes me think too of this idea that I learned from Judson Brewer, who’s a psychiatrist at Brown University, and he’s done a lot of research about addiction, but also about mindfulness. And he talks about this thing called, The Bigger, Better Offer, which is, what is the, what is the bigger reward for your brain that is going to feel better, right?

So, he talks about this idea of habit loops. So, there’s the trigger, you know, let’s say it’s when you feel sad. You’re starting to scroll on swipe on dating apps kind of all night. Excuse me. Let me back up. It’s the that would be the behavior. So, the idea of the habit loop is that there’s a trigger behavior and then result. And so, the trigger might be you feel down about dating or being single, single, and then the behavior would be, okay, well, I’m going to, like, swipe on dating apps for all night because I need to find someone, and the result is you feel awful. And so, what the bigger, better offer of that scenario would be is, I’m going to do something that makes me feel good instead, like I know that when I swipe for an hour or two, it doesn’t feel good, so if I feel down about dating or being signal a single I can reroute that and change the behavior and say, Okay, I’m going to give myself the bigger, better offer of connecting with a friend, watching a TV show, Doing going for a walk. I know it sounds so simple and smaller but replacing it with something you know is going to be more enticing to your brain, that’s more rewarding, is going to lead to better results, because our brains love reward.

And the other thing that we can do is, you know, the reward can be as simple as being really curious, like in, you know, bringing in mindfulness, being like, instead of being like, Okay, well, now I’m going to reach for my phone and just go on dating apps, thinking, Okay, I’m noticing I’m feeling kind of sad. And like approaching it, non-judgmentally. Like, why am I sad? Just like approaching. Non-judgmental curiosity. And I know I’ve definitely been the mindfulness practitioner where I’m like, Well, I feel sad because I’m sad, like, I just get really sassy with myself. But he actually has research to show that this state of curiosity is more rewarding and it’s gentler, and it can get you can just really de-escalate and help you process those emotions as well. So, yeah, it just it feels an easier way to or maybe not easier, but a kinder way. Yeah, out that makes a lot of sense.

Casey McGuire Davidson  45:32

I also wanted to ask you about the ABCs that you write about. Yes, in the book, it’s accumulating positives, building mastery and coping ahead. Can you tell us, like, where you would apply that, how that works, what’s you know? How does that help?

Meghan Keane  45:47

So, the ABCs is part of the dialectical behavior therapy training. So, dialectical behavior therapy, DBT is just essentially a way to help you cope with big emotions, and it’s honestly like just useful life skills.

And ABC is the shorter part of an acronym that you just laid out, and it’s really helpful for, honestly, anyone just kind of looking to boost positive emotion in their day to day life. I write about it in the context of the book, where I’m helping people think about how to, like, fall in love with the life you have now, um, whether that is single, single or in a relationship. Um, but, and also just accepting if you’re in a place of singleness and maybe you don’t want to be, um, like, how to lower that resistance?

So, A is Accumulating positives, like you mentioned, that’s basically just looking for moments for positivity in your day. And that doesn’t mean being like, you feel awful and you’re forcing toxic positivity. It just means you’re saying like, Oh, what a cute dog that walked past me. Oh, I found this book in a free library that I’ve been meaning to read. What is what score? Oh, my friend who lives far away is coming for a visit soon. I’m so excited just noticing positive events, because those actually really snowball into building your positive mode, and then building mastery kind of goes along with that and that it’s a the I did something good, or I’m working towards something that makes me feel accomplished. So, it could mean that you were working on a skill. I’m a tennis player, not very good, but every now and then, when I feel that, you know, really good forehand or whatever, come through, I’m like, yes, that felt good. And like noticing that. But it can also it mean like you paid off bills that day. You know, like to do stuff. The idea of just writing down a to do list and crossing things off, that’s also a building mastery. It just helps you feel accomplished and makes you feel like you have some agency and then coping ahead, is a really interesting tool, because it’s, it’s this idea of like a kind of a mental rehearsal for something that might be challenging, maybe in, you know, in the context of my book, going home for the holidays, and you know, you’re going to be met with a bunch of questions from a nosy uncle or whatever, about your dating life or whatever. And instead of being like, Okay, what exactly am I going to say? What you know, What’s My Line, you can think about that stuff, but coping ahead is less about focusing on the exact words you’re going to say and more about how you would feel in that so it’s like practicing confidence. So, you’re thinking, Okay, I’m thinking to myself at that dinner table, and my uncle starts going in, and I just have the perfect response. I feel so good. And just like kind of embodying like this. I got this sentiment. So, all of those things combine. They seem really small, I know, but they really do have this compounding positive factor when you practice them daily.

Casey McGuire Davidson  48:50

Yeah. I mean, I think that’s really interesting, because every single one of those in that framework can absolutely be applied to early sobriety, and as you go along, right, accumulating positives is looking for the good things in your life. I mean, practicing gratitude and noticing, like some people call them glimmers, like really do bring you small joy in your life. Building mastery, I mean, I think that always helps, plus a project or something you’re interested in that takes you outside of your everyday life can be really interesting and then coping ahead. You were talking about the nosy uncle, but I know a huge challenge is people going to the holidays, to their family, or to a wedding, or, you know, or talking, going to a happy hour and not drinking like exactly what you were saying. I think if people read this book, they’re going to get a lot out of it, just emotional coping skills and being happy in their lives, regardless of their partnership situation,

Meghan Keane  49:54

totally. And I remember hearing on a recent episode of your podcast about how that first drink when you walk into a social setting when you’re sober, is often the hardest part of the night. And I thought that was so fascinating. And so like, coping ahead could be like, I’m going to say I’m good or, you know, just like thinking to yourself, like, I’m going to, like, have the perfect dancer in that scenario and then find the right drink for myself and enjoy the rest of my night. It’s going to be awesome. Like, it’s power, it’s a powerful tool.

Casey McGuire Davidson  50:23

And accumulating positives can also be like, I had this conversation with this person and was really present for it, and I wouldn’t have been otherwise, or I was able to drive home without worrying about anything that felt really good, or I slept through the night and was able to get up and go for a run. I mean, all of those things are like noticing the positives that come out from your situation, versus being like, this sucks. I couldn’t, you know whatever, whatever it was.

So, I wanted to ask you, you talked about you wrote to me that you wrote this whole book about being single, and then you partnered up, and how the book, how that experience of writing the book, sort of evolved, and how you feel about it. Now, can you tell us about that?

Meghan Keane  51:14

Yes, everyone loves to joke in my personal life when I tell them like, Oh, I partnered up with someone. I had a boyfriend. I got a boyfriend in the process of writing this book. They’re always like, well, of course, like, when you least expect it, like, of course it would happen this way. And it’s like, I had to, have to, you know, I, like, kind of nod politely or lap. And then I, what I think I want to start saying, is, like, well, actually, no, like, I least expected it, like, a million times before this, like, I did a whole NPR, uh, podcast episode for Life Kit about this topic. I didn’t get a single DM. No one emailed me, no one tried to hit me up for a day. In fact, I got dumped by someone who had been seeing pretty briefly. So, it had the opposite effect. So, I understand what people are trying to say. It’s like, oh, isn’t that ironic, right?

And what I learned with writing the book, though, while I started to, you know, go into this, this, like what became a serious relationship was, like, the longest relationship of my life is that I was like, Oh, I still need these skills. Like all these skills about managing emotions, building community, you know, making sure that I check my own, you know, stigma against singleness is so present in my partnered life as well. I still need these skills, and it also has made me a really intentional ally to my single friends, because I start to think to myself, like of anybody.

You know, people have all these stories about how, like, you know, you have your single girlfriends or whatever, and then they get into a partnership, and they disappear. And I was like, I do not want to disappear, because that’s not going to make me happy. I don’t think that’s going to make my partner happy. It’s definitely not going to make my friends happy. And that just doesn’t feel authentic to like what I want as a part of a full life. So, I was thinking to myself, was like, kind of like, you know, with the trips with, you know, like you went to Provence, with your friends, being like, I’m going to say these friends, I’m going to make time for them, one on one. They know my partner, but they also get a lot of me, like, just with, with the with the girls, right? And I also, I have a big role, which is that I don’t ask about my single friends dating lives, unless they bring it up to themselves and they want to talk about it, because a lot of pain and singleness, especially if you’re actively dating, is your married or partner friends coming to you being like, get any good dating stories, like, they treat it like entertainment, and it’s I really was like, I just, I can’t do that to any of my single friends. So, unless someone brings it up to me, I don’t ask, like, How’s dating going? Because it’s just, they have, they have other passions and, you know, and things they’re interested in. I’d rather talk about those things. And if they do want to talk about it and bring it up to me, I’m really careful to not, you know, look, I’m in the advice business. I run an advice Podcast. I’m but what in these scenarios, if my friends bring up their dating lives, I don’t just hand out advice or be like, well, I met my partner this way, or this works for us.

So, you should try this. I met one person because of luck and timing. It’s not because I’m not a better person. I’m not more I’m not moral, more moral than they are. I didn’t have the secret to dating. I just met a person, and it happened to be the right time for the both of us. So, I don’t know anything about dating, and I definitely don’t know how they should date either. So, I would really urge people who are hearing this, who are in relationships, to make time for their single friends, even if it’s not like, you know, big trips like, you know, check in on them, text them, celebrate their birthdays, show up to events, um, and I feel really lucky that I got to write this book. Um. Because it helped me see, God, it’s just so important to keep a relationship with yourself. Because the reality is, you might be single your whole life, you might and or you might have a ton of relationships, but the reality is that everyone’s going to be single at some point in their life. It might be short or long, but you always have to know how to have a relationship with yourself, because it just, in my experience, it just leads to more ease and self-assurance, self-assuredness and self-efficacy. And I just think that’s something we all should want.

Casey McGuire Davidson  55:31

Yeah, and the more relationships that you have are connectedness, like the close ones, the happier you are. And when you were talking about like your partner not being able to be everything to you, I found that there are a lot of things that I don’t necessarily want to talk to my partner about because he’s too close to it, like he’s got something invested in whatever the outcome is. And so it actually helps me to talk to my friends first, or a therapist or separately, to figure out in my own mind what’s going on before I involve someone who’s like so connected to my financial and personal and, you know, social life, and you just need more people in your life than I think it’s too much of an emotional load to put it on a single, single person.

Meghan Keane  56:23

Oh, absolutely. And, you know, think about if you’re working on a project like you wouldn’t just be like, Okay, I have one person telling me it’s good, and now we’re now, we’re moving ahead with it like you would get input. You have, look, I’m an editor. I so my joke is, I think everyone needs an editor. So, you need other people to come in with different perspectives. And it just, I think it broadens your perspective, and it just makes you see things you how you wouldn’t maybe. And then you also get different life experiences. I mean, we treat our friends this way, right? Like, where you have the friend who maybe you always talk about reality TV shows with, you know, you can always go to them for that. Um, you have friends that you always talk about books or, you know, you always have a friend who knows how to set up a Roth and talk about that, you know, the finance friend. Um, so we know that in our platonic lives.

So, it’s interesting that when it gets translated to romantic lives, we’re like, oh, they got to have all the answers. So, there’s does seem to be this interesting disconnect, where we’re able to see the different ways different people in our community are helpful to us. But then all of a sudden, the romantic partner is the be all, lend all.

Casey McGuire Davidson  57:33

I love how you gave us takeaways.

Meghan Keane  57:35

Like, I know on life, well, that’s, that’s my life kit, way so, so like, if you are interacting with your single friends, you have your roles, right?

Casey McGuire Davidson  57:39

Never ask them about their dating life unless they mention it. Celebrate their birthdays. Check in on them, make time for them, one on one. So, if you are single, right now, you wrote this whole book, which is awesome. Everyone should get it and read it. But like, Are there a few takeaways if you’re single, maybe you’re trying to overcome your own stigma, maybe you are feeling lonely, whatever it is, like, what are a few steps they could take or should consider Sure?

Meghan Keane  58:12

So, I would say, if you’re trying to, if you were in a state of resistance against being single, single, like, I’ve been there where you’re like, I know it’s great, but I’m still feeling resistance. I would say a big thing to think about is thinking about where those where that shame comes from. For you, what voices are you hearing that are telling you to feel shame?

There’s this concept of secondary emotions, which is this idea that you could feel sad. That’s the primary, emotion. But then the secondary emotion is how you feel about that emotion.

So, if you’re feeling like, Oh man, I’m home alone on a Friday night. I wish I had a date or something, or I had a boyfriend or a girlfriend, what have you, and I feel like, so lame that I don’t or whatever, this like kind of negative feeling, that’s the secondary emotion. Is actually the shame the you’re coloring it with.

So, I think that’s a really interesting way to kind of break down where these unhelpful messages are coming from when you feel getting really mindful. I’m a huge proponent of mindfulness, and all that means is paying attention to yourself when you feel sad or angry or any emotion, and being like what’s going on here, approaching it with non-judgment and just getting a little curious. So, I think that’s one way.

The other way is to invest in the life that you have right now. It’s to be not. No, don’t wait for anything. A big thing for me was, I was like, I’m going to wait to get a pet until I’m in a partnership. It’s just too hard. It’s just too hard. And then when the pandemic came, I was like, Oh, I think I need that pet now. I was sitting home in my apartment in covid, and I really would just this. This would be a gift for myself, and which is how I got my dog, Margo.

So, I would also say, like, don’t wait if you’re looking to travel, if you’re looking to move across country. Like, do. If you’re waiting for something, ask yourself, why? And then just do it.

And what I’m really heartened to see on just like social media and stuff, is a lot of people are a lot of single women in particular, aren’t waiting to do things, which I think is wonderful, like women on average, uh, have homes, have bought their own homes, as compared to single men. Um, which I find interesting.

So, yeah, so staying mindful, not waiting and then deepening friendships, to be honest, I mean deepening community. And, you know, creating rituals around your life. You know, so many rituals are built around partnership, right, the wedding, the baby shower, and all those things in between. And we don’t have a lot of those for singleness, right? We have kind of, basically, it’s kind of the birthday. And people I know don’t really like their birthday.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:51

I love my birthday, um, I do like birthday week. Like, I’m like, Yes, birthday week. A week.

Meghan Keane  1:00:53

Yes, exactly. Birthday month. I know people do birthday month, um, but yeah, is it for some people, like birthdays isn’t quite the right thing.

So, I’m not saying you need to make a whole celebration around yourself, if that makes you feel uncomfortable. But start to ritualize parts of your life that would feel meaningful. Like, I have a friend who has a monthly card game night, and we all learn different card games because he wants us all to get old and be rich partners. So, it’s a great way to just come together and see people have a common meal and a shared meal and then learn a card game. But that’s just, it’s just like this monthly ritual that feels really good because he’s thought to himself. I like my community, and I like this, this activity, so it works for him. But that could be, you know, I often have a lot of my rituals around food battalion. So, it’s just the way it is. Like, Sunday night dinners. Or it could be friend anniversaries. It could be rituals around seasons changing, you know, new moon cycles, things like that. Finding things that feel special to you and ritualizing them is a really great way to build community. So, yeah, my love waiting, too.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:12

Yeah, I think that’s great. We used to have, like, monthly sober brunches at my friend’s house. And you know everyone. You know, everybody would invite a friend who also was not drinking, but it was just tons of food and lots of conversations and getting to know more people. And that was amazing.

Meghan Keane  1:02:30

Yeah, yeah. And also, the monthly factor, the automatic side of that is it’s great because then you don’t have to whip out the calendar every time be like, can I actually make it this time? It’s like, oh, I can’t make it this time, so I’ll see you next time.

Yeah. And it’s just like, it erases the kind of friction of having to schedule something. I heard about this idea of like, the power of the default a while ago. And like, it’s true when you just like, make something like this is just what we do every month we get together for this brunch, you’re just so much more likely to do it.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:03:05

Yeah. And you have something to look forward to. It’s not like, well, we’ll do it once and you see the same people, which is kind of nice, and meet new ones. So that’s great. Is there anything that we haven’t talked about that you really think is important that we should touch on?

Meghan Keane  1:03:20

So, yeah, I’d love to talk about rumination, because I found it was something that, you know, everyone deals with, right? It’s this, you know, just repetitive thinking about stories that are unhelpful. And when I was single, I was really wrapped up in this idea that I was the rebound girl I write about in my book in the intro. These like two kind of defining relationships in my 20s, which weren’t very long, to be honest, but they were, they felt really bad when they ended, because they were both kind of sudden, blindside breakups. And I was like, well, there’s got to be something wrong with me. There’s something wrong with me. These, these two people in particular, we’d start a relationship after they both gotten out of, like, longer, long term relationships. So in my head, I was like, Oh, I’m just the girl that you date when you’re ready to pick up the pieces and have fun. And then you the next person after me you date, you get real serious with. And it was really damaging my self-worth, because I was so obsessed with being like, I have to figure out why, why, why?

And, um, what I realized was, in this research, is that sometimes the why, fuels the rumination. It is helpful to do deep work about underpinning things about that drive your behavior, but you’re probably not solving that while you’re just like driving to work or grocery shopping or trying to be in conversation with a friend or something, you know, when you on the ruminating thoughts happen, it’s the why helps fuel the fire to keep it calm. Kind of go because our brains love certainty and when we have uncertainty. So, a question like, Why do these people keep dumping me? Or when am I going to meet a partner? Those are really open ended questions that you’re probably not going to find the answer to right away. You kind of have to live in the acceptance of I just don’t know potentially.

So, what I found was, in my research that turning a why question to a what question was, was a lot more helpful. So, instead of being like, Well, why? Why do I? Why does this always happen to me, and also like, self-blame, that’s a huge part of rumination. That’s how you know you’re ruminating. It’s usually you’re blaming yourself for something instead of me saying thinking, why has this always happened to me? Why do I keep being dumped? I could think to myself, What do I need right now? What would I rather be doing than thinking about this? What would feel good tonight to make me feel better. That kind of helps stop the rumination a little bit more in its tracks, because the why just becomes endless, and the what question can help you be. Think. Okay, I’m going to make a choice, and that choice is going to give me a little agency like Britt Frank, who wrote the science is stuck.

Um, talk to me about how anxiety is and in the terms of self-regulation, it’s not about um, being emotionally regulated is not about being Zen all the time or happy all the time. It’s about maintaining choice.

And so, when you find yourself getting into these thoughts that are feeling really destructive or mean to yourself, or just endless kind of thinking, Okay, what? What can I do instead of this? Is just an easier way to achieve that agency and get you off the rumination track.

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:06:59

I love that shift from the why to the what. That’s really great advice. So where can people follow you? The book is Party Of One: Be Your Own Best Life Partner. I assume you can buy it wherever books are, whatever books are sold, yeah. And if people want to follow you and learn more about your work.

Meghan Keane  1:07:18

Sure, yeah. So, you can follow me on Instagram. I’m @damekeane. Keane is spelled k, e, a, n, e, those are my Irish ancestors at work. Or you can, you won’t hear my voice, but you’ll hear my work at NPRs Life Kit, where we have episodes three times a week, about like you said the top about parenting, mental health, life skills, career, personal finance, health and more. And then you can also find me on my website, which is meghanvkeane.com

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:07:49

That’s awesome! Thank you so much for coming on, of course.

Meghan Keane  1:07:52

Oh, my pleasure. Casey, thank you so much.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Hello Someday podcast.

If you’re interested in learning more about me, the work I do, and access free resources and guides to help you build a life you love without alcohol. Please visit hellosomedaycoaching.com. And I would be so grateful if you would take a few minutes to rate and review this podcast so that more women can find it. And join the conversation about drinking less and living more.