SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking, sober awkward, sobriety, feel, people, alcohol, life, thinking, stop, person, podcast, anxiety, hangovers, night, awkwardness, wine, friends, relapse, stories

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Victoria Vanstone

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there. If you’re listening to this podcast, I’m betting you’ve been going back and forth for a while now on whether or not you should stop drinking. And I want you to raise your hand. If you’ve had any one of these thoughts.

You might have been thinking, I’m not that bad. I actually don’t want to stop drinking completely. I just want to drink like a normal person. Or maybe you come home after work. And you think I know I shouldn’t drink tonight. But I literally can’t relax or have fun without it. It’s really common to say I’ve tried to take a break from drinking before. But it’s just too hard. I always give up anyway. So what’s the point in trying again? Or here’s one I hear all the time from women. Everyone I know drinks. If I stopped drinking, I will be bored. Or I’ll be boring. I’ll have no fun. I’ll never be invited anywhere. I’ll just sit home and be miserable. Or maybe you can insert whatever your reason is there.

So is your hand up? If it is that is totally okay. And that’s because taking a break from drinking and changing your relationship with alcohol. This shit is hard.

And that’s why I’m really pumped to invite you to my completely free 60 minute masterclass the five secrets to successfully take a break from drinking, even if you’ve tried and you failed in the past.

After you take this free class, you’ll realize why what you’ve been doing up until now hasn’t been working, and what to do.

Instead, we’re going to cover all the juicy topics, including what questions you need to stop asking yourself, because they’re setting you up for self sabotage, not for success. We’re going to talk about exactly what you need to do differently. So you can stop the exhausting cycle of stopping drinking and then saying screw it, and starting again.

And we’re going to talk about the real reasons you haven’t been successful. And I’m betting they’re not what you think they are. And this isn’t surface level stuff. I am handing over the strategies and the mindset shifts I go through every day with my private coaching clients. If you’re listening to this podcast, I really encourage you to take a moment and sign up for this completely free masterclass. It will help you on your journey to drink class and live more to feeling better. So if you want to save your spot, go to hellosomedaycoaching.com/class while the class is still available, and I really hope to see you there.

Today I’m talking with someone you might know. Victoria Vanstone is the host of Australia’s most popular sobriety podcast, Sober Awkward with Lucy Good. She started writing about addiction and parenting on the day she gave up alcohol four years ago. Since then she’s penned a book about being a sober mum and also writes the blog, Drunk Mummy Sober Mummy. Victoria is an alcohol free living advocate and is passionate about helping others stuck in a pattern of normalized social binge drinking. She’s from the UK and now lives on the Sunshine Coast in Australia with her three uncontrollable children and a very patient husband. And you can follow her on social media at Drunk Mummy Sober Mummy. So, Vic, welcome to the podcast.

 

05:19

Hi, thank you so much for having me. It’s lovely. I may look a bit tired at 6:30am here in Australia, but I’m ready to go. And I’m excited to be here. Yeah. And

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  05:28

you were telling me before we jumped on that all three of your kids were sick last night. So combine that with 6:30 in the morning, thank you for coming out.

 

05:38

I think it’s actually a bit of a COVID Hangover that they’ve got. They had it about three weeks ago. And it seems to cause some sort of congestion afterwards, it seems to be going on and on. So it does feel like one of those parenting battles where everybody’s sick all the time. And I just seem to spend my days in and out of the fridge getting Panadol and then holding cold towels on heads and all that sort of thing. So I feel like the battle might be over a bit today. I’ve seen them all this morning. And they’re looking a bit more sprightly.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  06:07

Yeah, and you were telling me your children are three year old seven year old and your oldest is how

 

06:12

old? 

 

10.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  06:14

Yeah. So you’re right in the thick of it.

 

06:17

Yeah. I still can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  06:21

It comes like I feel like once the youngest hits, like four and a half is okay. Good. The crazy tantrums.

 

06:29

Okay, great. I look forward to that. Yeah,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  06:32

you’re right. Yeah. Hard to,

 

06:35

like, call me. I can grit my teeth and bear until then,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  06:38

gosh, oh, my gosh. Well, so I told you that I invited you on the podcast, because I had heard a lot of people start mentioning your show Sober Awkward. And particularly how funny it was like everybody was like, this is hysterical. And once I started listening to it, I knew I wanted to invite you on the show, because I love the name Sober Awkward. And I think that’s how a lot of us feel when we’re sort of navigating situations for the first time without alcohol. So can you tell me a little bit about why you guys decided to name the podcast that?

 

07:18

We did that thing where we sat down with a piece of paper, we wrote down all the things, all the words that are related to us and our drinking days. And then we sat down. I mean, a lot of them were words like vomit, promiscuity, all of those awful things that we got to and then we said, well, no one’s going to be very inspired by that. So, and we need to have the word sober in it. And then we really sort of focus on how do we feel? How do we actually feel when we get sober? I know, we say we feel amazing, and we feel wonderful, and life is so much better, and all of these other cheesy lines. But actually, for most people, sobriety is extremely awkward in the beginning. And it can be awkward all the time. And that’s when we said that word awkward we realize like that is how we feel that is how we felt from day one. And which is often why people relapse because the awkwardness is so unbearable, that they go and have another drink again. So we just called it Sober Awkward because that represents sobriety for us. I’m not saying it isn’t brilliant and wonderful. It is that at some times, but it is also extremely uncomfortable.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  08:25

Yeah, absolutely. And I know that one of the reasons that I started drinking a lot or loved it was because I felt awkward, right? I went off to college, and suddenly I’m meeting all these people and meeting all these guys and just felt extremely awkward. So I started drinking. And I think that like, sometimes when you get used to drinking in all situations, it stops you from having to develop sort of some of the normal ways of navigating life.

 

08:55

Absolutely. Well, I think the reason most of us start drinking is because we feel awkward. I mean, I started drinking when I was probably 12 or 13. And for me, that escalated when you know boys came into the equation and socializing when I felt awkward as a teenager. So I didn’t get the opportunity to find out whether I was someone that was socially awkward or not, because I numbed it out from a very young age because for me alcohol was the answer to confidence. So as soon as I had a couple of drinks, I could talk to boys. So I never really had the opportunity to see beyond the alcohol and find out whether I was actually a socially awkward person anyway, I think probably I wasn’t, I was just going through those normal teenage feelings, and just being very, very self aware at the age which everybody goes through. 

 

But unfortunately, that’s the time when alcohol is introduced to most of us. And we tend to numb ourselves out and abandon ourselves in those very early years. So we’re actually all very awkward most of the time because that’s, as humans sometimes we don’t know how to interact. For me, I didn’t and I know most teenage girls didn’t either. And I used it as a way of being accepted into the, you know, into the cool kids crowd or into any crowd, quite honestly. Because I was probably awkward. 

 

So, yeah, the name is so good. And so many people resonate with it, they’re like, Yes, I mean, that is how I feel. And often, you know, I’ve likened sobriety when you first go out to those first social functions to being like that bright light shining on you and exposing every part of you. Like, I remember feeling like people could see, like the vet the bloods pumping around in my veins, and every movement of me, I just felt so raw. And that is an awkward feeling. And to get to a point where that light dims in your sobriety can take a while. And I think it’s unfortunate sometimes when, you know, it’s hard to get to a point where the light dims. And I think always our messages, look, this is going to be awkward, and you’re going to feel like that light is blaring at you at every direction. But actually, it is going to get easier. 

 

Yeah, and the first

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  11:05

time you do anything, it’s awkward. But not only that, I think that we have so many thoughts about drinking and not drinking and wanting to stop and not wanting to stop, it’s so important to us. And we surround ourselves with drinkers that it’s almost like it would be less awkward if we weren’t so invested in drinking culture.

 

11:29

I mean, that preoccupation with alcohol was something that in the end was what caused me to stop. I mean, it’s funny these things, you know, the awkwardness, and all of these things, we talk about the anxiety and the shame and guilt, we talk about them. Like they’re the big kind of elephant in the room, or the monster that was out to get us. But actually, all of those things are what leads us to sobriety. So, you know, I embrace those, the awkwardness and the, and the anxiety and all the horrible things that happened to me, because they make us who we are, and they make us feel like we’ve battled something and won. And that’s what makes it also worthwhile.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  12:09

Yeah, for sure. And so I wanted to ask you, because I certainly have a number of them. What were some of the most awkward moments you’ve had in sobriety?

 

12:22

Just the thing is, it’s nothing dramatic, is it? It’s going to that first time to a bar, and standing there with a fizzy water like you’ve never done before. And feeling like you’re sticking out like a sore thumb. And everybody knows that you don’t drink and everybody suddenly hates you. But it’s such an internalized thing. Like you’re thinking the worst, we’re going to like worst case scenario in every situation, because we’re not used to feeling soberly awkward. But of course, when you do it a few times, like practice, of course, is going to make perfect in any of these situations. If you do it a few times, it does get easier, and it feels so much better. 

 

But I remember the first time actually deciding to tell people it took me 18 months, I’ll be honest with you on my goals, 18 months where I didn’t tell anyone I’d got sober and I hadn’t found the sober curious community. I was completely alone, feeling like the only person who had ever stopped, mid range binge drinking problem. And that, you know, I was like this kind of person on an island on my own. And I remember thinking, God, I’ve got to, I’ve got to get out there. I’ve got to live my life. I’ve got to live it now in a way that suits me. Because I was a huge people pleaser. Everything I did throughout my life was to please everybody. You know, I was the one doing the, you know, the swan dives on the dance floor and weird robot moves to make everybody laugh. I was the one with the punch line and the round of drinks and the glitter boobs at Glastonbury, you know, that was me.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  13:54

I’m sorry. What are the glitter boobs at Glastonbury?

 

13:58

I haven’t painted glittered boobs yet? No. Come on, get with the program. So like if you go to a festival, you just get all your gear off. And then you paint your boobs with glitter. So it looks like you’ve got like a little glitter top on.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  14:12

Was that when you were younger?

 

14:16

I can assure you I don’t do it now. Only in private

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  14:20

I was going to say, my breasts are not what they used to be.

 

14:23

Yeah, me neither. They’re like wind socks.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  14:26

Yeah. You were I mean, I’m also impressed with the like worm on the dance floor. But, you know,

 

14:33

I was that person. I was that person that was out to entertain. Like when I entered a room, I felt like it was my responsibility to make everybody happy in it. And the only way I knew how to do that was to drink and entertain everyone and be crazy and probably take a few people home with me. So I had to step out of that. And when you give up drinking, there’s this transition that happens that you’re one person and then suddenly else you’re the person that you’ve always hated. 

 

Yes. 

 

So I’ve always hated sober people throughout my entire life. Because I don’t want somebody there remembering my behavior. I don’t want somebody near me who knows what I’ve done the night before, when I, when you know, I can’t even remember what I’ve done. So the last thing I want is some smug, sober person saying, Oh, you were a bit of a mess last night. So I’ve avoided them like the plague throughout my life. And then suddenly, I find myself standing in a bar, being a sober person, and it is absolutely overwhelming. 

 

And I remember I took my two best mates out with me and I just finished reading The Unexpected Joy of Being Sober. And I just remember thinking, very similar to how I think we’ve even been to a few of the night, same dodgy nightclubs. And I think, I just thought I have got to tell them, and we went up to the bar, and I ordered the pineapple juice, and they were like, oh, yeah, you’re gonna have vodka in that? I was like, no, no, I’m just gonna have a pineapple juice. They’re like, Oh, god, you’re pregnant again, aren’t you? You’re pregnant. No, no, I’m not pregnant. I’m just like, Wait, all I want is a pineapple juice. And then they were like, looking at me very strangely. I didn’t approach it right then. But then we sat down, I said, Look, I’ve decided that actually, I’ve been not drinking for 18 months. And nobody’s actually noticed that I’ve always had an excuse. You know, when you’ve got an excuse, you really got kids, you can always say one of them’s got diarrhea, and I can go home early. So it’s, it’s things change in parenting, because you’re not as sociable as you were. So I was able to keep it quiet under, under wraps for a while. 

 

And my huge surprise in that moment, even though it was awkward telling them and I felt uncomfortable. And really, I felt like I was letting them down. Which is really bizarre. But because I’d always been such a reliable drinking buddy, I felt like I was letting my mates down by not being that anymore. And that was like, you know, it’s like coming out of the closet. It’s like, you know, here I am. This is the authentic me, are you going to accept me? And what I found was incredible, was they just went, Oh, nice. One night, you know, good work, like, well done. 

 

And I was absolutely astonished by people’s reaction to my sobriety. I think there’s only been a couple of times where people I didn’t really know have gone, oh, you’re boring, or you’re this or you’re that. Oh, come on, one won’t hurt. It’s generally been people going, Wow, that’s amazing. How have you done it? And why have you done it? And it’s usually the big drinkers that are asking the questions, because I find they’re the ones that are most intrigued. They’re the ones I get the secret emails from now saying, Look, I’ve been following what you’re doing and can you help me? So I think that’s a wonderful thing and your listeners as well. It’s like, don’t be shy about that, because it might feel awkward. But once you do it, the reactions from people are so surprising that it makes you more and more confident within yourself and you go actually, it’s me that’s doing the right thing. I know it’s out of the box, and I know I’m not going with the flow of society.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  18:01

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, the sobriety starter kit.

The sobriety starter kit is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

 

Yeah, for me, I mean, I think the most awkward points in early sobriety were just me overthinking what I was going to say. I mean, I remember that. A woman who lived in my neighborhood who, you know, I wanted to be friends with, she had a son, my age, she worked, I work, she asked me, Hey, do you want to join this book club where these really cool women and I get together every month, and we drink a ton of wine and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, two months sober. I mean, like, really early days. And so I was talking to my husband, and I was like, What do I tell her? Like, do I tell her like, that I have running club that night? Or do I tell her that like, I don’t do book clubs, or what, you know, what should I say? And he was like, you don’t drink? Tell her you don’t drink. 

 

And I was like, Oh, my God. And my impression was she’s not going to want to be friends with me. Because she mentioned wine. Because you know, when I was drinking yet, you’re totally right. I thought, I mean, literally anyone who didn’t drink, I would think they were lame. pregnant or an alcoholic. Like literally, those were my three categories. And so I didn’t want to be lame, or an alcoholic or, or pregnant your God. So finally, I just said to her, I said, Oh, I’d love to hang out with you. I really like you. I just stopped drinking, you know, two months ago. Could we get coffee sometime? And I was so surprised. She was like, oh, yeah, absolutely. I’ve taken breaks at different times. You know, drinking is something I really need to watch. And so that made us actually closer. Like, I felt like we actually had this like, a little bit of vulnerability on her side too that the next time I saw her, I was like, Oh, you’re a friend. You know what I mean? It’s not like you’re putting on the like, oh my god, I hang out with the coolest women and we drink and we talk about our jobs kind of thing. 

 

More awkward was we had a bunch of people come in from New York from my New York office, and we went out to a bar. And we were all sitting around sort of like talking networking, whatever. And there was like a big boss person there. And so I ordered a ginger beer just like, you know, as they go on the Oh, ginger beer for me. And the waitress friggin stopped, and said, you know, there’s no alcohol in a ginger beer, don’t you? And I was like, yes. And she’s like, I just don’t want you to be angry when it comes if there’s no alcohol. I was like, I’d like a funk. Like, could you please not announce it to the entire table. But like, at least I had sober friends. So I like went to the bathroom. It was like, You’re not fucking going to believe what just happened to me. It was like total cringe worthy moment.

 

22:56

Having those sober buddies to go out with I mean, that is so, so beneficial for you. When you’re on your soul sobriety path, isn’t it just to have someone to go Oh, God, this was so awkward. So embarrassing, because they feel the same way. But what you said reminds me, like we spend so much time thinking about what’s in someone else’s brain, which we can’t control. And we will never find out whether it’s true or not. So we think people are thinking the worst about us. And they’re thinking that we’re boring, and all those other things. But actually, I don’t think they are. And we could spend all our lives guessing what somebody’s thinking about you. But we’re actually never going to know. And I think that’s something that comes with sobriety is that you, you sort of have to let the opinions of others drain off you and just go well, they can think what they like because I know I’m doing the right thing. 

 

And also, as you say, like your friend, I think people want to meet people that don’t drink because they often have issues. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t have a sort of weird relationship with alcohol, even if it’s that one glass of wine a day or one glass of wine a year. It’s like why are you having one glass of wine a year? Anyway, like everybody has their own intricate little relationship with it and I think when you stop people go, oh, actually that’s kind of amazing. And you’re like this magical little elf everybody wants to sort of follow around because they actually don’t want the hangovers and they don’t want to make dicks out of themselves every time they go out. And they find you quite inspiring. 

 

It was funny in your story also reminded me of when people decide to say things and like now when people talk about alcohol I feel like my, you know when people are talking about a night out and mates have done this and done that. I do feel like my shoulders, I do get awkward because I know that I’m not part of that conversation anymore. But the other week I was at the local hospital. My son has epilepsy and I was coming out of the hospital after a really stressful day. And the nurses as I was walking out the door grabbed me on the shoulder and said, And why don’t you just go home, open a couple of bottles of wine and sit and watch telly and you just relax and I just went, Oh, fuck sake, I don’t fucking drink. I was just in that mood where I just couldn’t go. Oh, yeah, you know, sometimes you just kind of pretend the drink just to ease everybody because you don’t want to make them feel taken affronted by your behavior. So I just felt

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  25:27

when you think about it, you’re like, Yes, tomorrow coming back to the hospital with a brutal hangover will make it so much better. You know,

 

25:35

it was just the fact that it was a nurse in her nurse’s uniform, telling me to open not one, two bottles of wine when I got home. Yeah,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  25:44

well, I have to say that. I mean, I honestly like, I work with women who are wanting to stop drinking. And I’ve worked with a number of nurses as well as doctors. So I mean, we’re not the only ones who have sort of a problematic relationship with alcohol, it really in society cuts all people and there is that period of like, being completely oblivious before you start to be like, yikes, this is a problem. I mean, I remember telling people at work. Oh, yeah, I drink a bottle of wine a night, not thinking that it was that yours are bad. Or like, maybe I shouldn’t help people with that. You know what I mean? Yeah.

 

26:27

Well, that’s the exact problem with the normalization of alcohol in society. That’s, that’s, you know, you’ve hit the nail on the head. We don’t know it’s wrong because everybody else around us is doing that. We’re just doing, we’re following the crowd. We’re absorbing ourselves in our social environments, and surrounding ourselves with people that drink so therefore, why would you look out of that bubble? It’s not necessary. You’re just doing what everybody else is doing? 

 

Yeah. And then when you stopped drinking, it takes a while. But when you look back on that, you’re like, Oh, my God, I was just following the crowd. I was just, really, I was just being a sheep. And I knew it was doing the damage. I mean, there were points in my life, where, you know, after I had kids, and I started to question my alcohol intake, for I’d be lying in bed with my, you know, my finger on my pulse, thinking that I was going to die. I mean, that’s how bad it was. The anxiety and shame of not being able to look after my children, because I was hungover caused me to feel like I was gonna die. I mean, that’s that one bottle of wine a night. That’s not, it’s not that extreme. It’s that real, you know, acceptable level of drinking in society, which is where the real problem lies, I believe, especially with mental health and anxiety, and depression, all of these things that run alongside it. I mean, anxiety and alcohol go hand in hand. And it was something I severely suffered from. But as I said, before, you know, it was actually the thing that made me stop. So I am appreciative of my body screaming out to me in that way.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  27:56

Yeah, I mean, there comes a point where your body’s like, you can’t do this anymore. And I also, like, have extreme anxiety, I think I always have, and I still do, but it went from like, a level nine, to like, a level five, sort of a manageable level of anxiety. But I mean, the reason I finally stopped is I was really scared about my mental health, like, you know, pretending everything is fine, going to work, coming home, taking care of the kids, I was like, I can’t cope with life. Like, I don’t think I can do this. And that’s terrifying as well. So I think it was sort of the anxiety mental health piece that actually made me say, I need to stop. And you’re right, like, you know, what’s funny is I talked to him all the time. And, you know, it is interesting, like, literally elementary school teachers will be like, well, teachers, that’s a big drinking culture. And then sales. There’ll be like, that’s a big draw. Yeah, sure. And then, like, you get to lawyers, and I was in marketing, and they’re like startups, and I’m like, Oh, my God, everything. stay at home moms. That’s a big drinking culture. You know,

 

29:08

everything. Yeah, everything is, it’s a career, isn’t it? It’s a whole other career. It takes up probably 30 hours a week. It’s probably quite simple, just don’t get paid for it. The mental preoccupation is probably more than having a full time job.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  29:24

Yes. Oh, God. Yes. I spent more time thinking about that than almost anything else. What I was gonna say is interesting is you know, it was something someone said to me stuck with me, right where they were like, You need to give sobriety a couple chances. Like the first time you go to a barbecue, the first time you go to a concert or on a date, without drinking. Yes, it’s awkward. But give it a couple of times, like it gets better. And what they said to me was, you’ve given drinking thanks. Listen chances, like, how many times did it go bad and you were like, well, let’s just try one more time. And I was thinking about that in terms of sober awkward because I had a shocking number of truly, truly awkward cringe worthy moments when I was drinking, and you probably did to

 

30:22

I mean, my life was a, you know, a calamity of those things. My life was just a huge, awkward hangover, where I got lost in this sort of drinking no man’s land, because I couldn’t remember my own behavior the next day. So not only was I fearful of what I could remember, I was also overwhelmingly scared of what I couldn’t. So it’s like I was, I also, I will often say, I got stuck between the joke and the punch line. It was like, when you’re hungover, you don’t know where you’ve been, what you’ve been up to. I mean, that was the level of my binge drinking, I went into a blackout quite early on. And I was functioning, you know, I was dancing or getting a taxi or, you know, vomiting tequila shots into a toilet in a dodgy nightclub. I was functioning like a robot with the lights on, but no one home. 

 

And that now scares the bloody hell out of me. I can’t believe that I did that. But it was always awkward. You know, there was I’d wake up with a weird guy in my bed and be like, Oh, good morning, who are you? It was just a repertoire of awkwardness. And I just thought those stories at the time, gave me some sort of kudos like, you know, I could meet my friends down the pub the next day for a bacon sandwich and you know, a bloody marys to talk me up. And I had the stories. I had the terrible promiscuity stories I always had, I always had a cut on my chin from doing some stupid dancing. I always had something to bring to the table like a comedy show to say, look, here I am, I know what you want from me. And I’m going to bring it to you. I’m going to deliver on what is expected of me as your friend.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  32:05

And it’s also a defense mechanism, right? Like, if I make fun of everything I did, then no one else really can.

 

32:13

Absolutely. And also, it was my identity. I didn’t know another person. All I knew was drunk Vicki, who is the life and soul and doesn’t care about anything and can do whatever she wants, and nothing matters. I was totally invincible in those days. And I never ever stopped to self reflect. And I think it’s because I grew up in a family that were big drinkers, it would have been more awkward for me to say no to alcohol from a young age than to say yes. 

 

And I mean, if we go really intrinsically into it, I think alcohol made me feel loved. And that was that little addictive love hit that I was getting from my parents, from my friends, from everybody around me. And it all stemmed down to this little bullying situation I had at school, I say little, every drama is, you know, trauma is relative. So for me, it wasn’t as big as some people’s trauma. But I was bullied at school, there was no hitting or, or fighting. Two of my best friends just decided they didn’t want to like me anymore. And I was 14 or 15. And just at that age where I just loved them. And they just walked away from me one day. And from that moment on, I think my drinking changed slightly. Because that was the most awkward I’d ever felt in my life. And the only way I knew how to deal with that was to drown out those feelings. Because I mean, what else was there? I wasn’t going to get therapy at that age or talk to someone about it. I was just like, Oh, these people don’t like me anymore. As in that developed into this huge people pleasing problem. Because I not only wanted to please everybody, I wanted them to stay and I wanted them to not walk away like those people have. 

 

Yeah. 

 

And yeah, that developed into me over drinking and lots of awkward situations. I mean, the most awkward is me blowing my finger off with a firework on the millennium.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  34:04

Oh my gosh, okay, you can’t. 

 

Yes, but one of her fingers is not as long as yet.

 

34:11

And funnily enough, Jean McCarthy you know, who does The Bubble Hour. Yes, she has the same finger missing, but I don’t think hers was a drunken injury. We’re like, we’re like so sober stumped sisters. We discovered it when I was on her podcast. Yes. Some sisters. Yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  34:27

That’s like sober trivia. Yeah. Podcast hosts have one finger missing.

 

34:37

So funny. Yeah, so I just was that person. You know, I was that person who was always doing the craziest thing, which led to me, I mean that those anxiety filled hangovers are awkward. That’s what it is. That’s why you feel anxious because you can’t remember anything you’ve done. You don’t know how to deal with it. And of course, I soaked that up with the next drink. I’d have huge drinks on a Sunday, Monday, I’d feel like shit Tuesday, I feel like shit. Then Wednesday, I’d be waving a tenner at the bottom and ordering another drink. So it was just this never ending cycle of feeling awkward and then using alcohol to numb it out. And then in sobriety, it’s like a different kind of awkwardness where you’re, you’re suddenly your authentic self, and you have to do the opposite to what you’ve always done, which is why it’s so hard.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  35:24

Yeah. I mean, I think it’s interesting to have this conversation because my drinking was very much like yours in terms of I would often blackout like, I would often not remember what happened in the evening. But differently, you know, I met my husband when I was 22. We were always together. So we did more drinking, like at friend’s dinner parties, or at home or on date nights, like it was not me at the bar, going home with different people. At the same time, like I had so many awkward moments, like, to the point of like, my bet, you know, it was part of my personality, too. Everybody knew I was a red wine girl. 

 

I would show up at every party with like, two bottles of wine, pretending to be generous, but it was really because I was worried they wouldn’t have, you know, enough for me. And I didn’t know, I was like, Well, if I brought one bottle, that would be okay. But I drink more than one bottle at a party, including a dinner party. So I mean, I had moments where I had kids, and I went over to my best friend’s house for a party. And at some point, I climbed into their master bed to take a nap, like, under the covers, and my husband found me and was like, What are you doing? I’m like, I’m allowed to be here, you know, like, just getting really belligerent. And I don’t remember any of that. Or I went to a party at our CEOs house, at, you know, for a holiday thing, and drank so much, I could not drive home. So my boss who was VP drove me home. I mean, I don’t know how I thought this was okay in a working situation. But I woke up the next morning and did not know where my phone was. And so I did find my phone. And it was 10 miles away in her car. So talk about awkward. I had to call her on my husband’s phone to be like, I think and then like, the most awkward part is trying to play it off. Like nothing to see here move along. I mean, it’s just so cringe worthy. And you know, tripping on a business trip and skinning my knee on the walk home from a restaurant. You know, there’s so many awkward moments, and it’s awkward afterwards, you’re trying to somehow mitigate the harm done the night before.

 

37:51

Yeah. And I think for some reason, you get away with it for a while. It’s like in your late teens, early 20s. You’re just kind of, you’re kind of skimming across the surface, aren’t you? You’re capable of keeping it all under wraps, and disguising it as a very normal drinking habit. And I’m just letting myself go. I’m letting my hair down. I love that phrase, letting your hair down. It’s like no your head is dipping in the toilet bowl, not letting you hair down. It’s just very interesting to see how we see it. Now in sobriety, we look back and go, actually, that behavior was awful. And when I went to therapy fitted for my drinking, I wrote down all of those awkward moments, I wrote down the time, I was driven out of a resort in Thailand for kicking a hole in the door, which I don’t remember, I wrote down all the promiscuity, the times that I offended people or slept with someone’s boyfriend, all of these awful things. I wrote down the list. And I really recommend anyone doing it actually, because it is very insightful. 

 

I wrote down every single thing that I felt awkward about throughout my life throughout my drinking career. And I read through them and I read them out loud. And I remember looking at the piece of paper and going, is that who I am really? Is that the person that I am or want to be? And I looked back at it and I was like, No, that is a completely mad person. That is a crazy maniac who is completely out of control and has no idea what she’s doing, where she’s going or any self respect. That was the main thing I noticed from it. I was giving myself away to strangers and giving my mental health away. I was so uninterested with myself I realized now and I went through the list and then afterwards after I’d read it I went through and wrote not okay, not okay, not okay to every single one on it. I mean, there were probably 50 things on there that I could list off to you. And I realized that that is not who I am. 

 

And that’s now why Casey I don’t have any shame about any of my behavior. I have no regrets about it. I did these things. That’s why I’m happy to talk about it, because that’s not who I am. That is not the person I am now. And I realized that that is someone that was heavily under the influence. It doesn’t represent me intrinsically as a human being. So I can step out of there and go, Wow, that was pretty crazy. But that is not Vicki. So therefore, I’m not. And here I am now to show you like, actually, this is just who I am. And I’m alright. I go to bed early. I drink tea. And I have boundaries. And I’m okay.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  40:28

Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, it’s weird. I don’t have any shame either about my drinking. I mean, maybe I should. But honestly, I think most of the stories are actually really funny in retrospect, not all of them. Not all of them. But I mean, they’re funny. Not funny, right? Like, when you age. I mean, right? Before I quit, I was at a resort with my family and drank too much red wine, because that’s what I did, and went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and was throwing up and trying to throw up really quietly so my kids and husband wouldn’t hear. I call it drunk. Right?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  41:09

And so like, no, that’s well, actually, I still think that’s kind of funny. But, you know, once you can distance from it, it’s not so emotionally charged. It’s just like, wow, that was fucked up. You know?

 

41:24

Yeah, I had a really good saying recently, which is something about living in the past creates depression and living in the future creates anxiety. So somehow, you’ve got to learn to live in the now and you perhaps in sobriety don’t have that wiggly wiggly lines of ups and downs. And you have to accept that you live in this sort of more content place, which doesn’t have the same euphoria and it doesn’t have the same level of panic attacks. But it’s actually a much more satisfying place to live, isn’t it? And you realize that those stories, even though they are embarrassing, you wouldn’t be here doing what you’re doing without them. And they are funny. I mean, I was going to ask actually, did you ever relapse once you gave up?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:05

I did. You know, a couple things. One, I was trying to moderate quote, unquote, with drinking for a long time. I stopped for like four months, the first time I was like, Oh, shit, I need to stop drinking. And I did go to AA meetings, 12 steps on the advice of my therapist. I was sober for about four months, and then I got pregnant. So for better or worse, like 12 Step didn’t resonate with me. But I really backed off once I got pregnant, because I was like, Well, I’m not drinking until after my daughter is born. I was like, Oh, that was just situational. You know, ignoring the previous 15 years of my life, like, I don’t really have a problem, I’m in a better place now. I’ve got a more or less stressful job. 

 

So I went back to drinking and very, very quickly, it became the same and as bad as it ever was, you know, drinking a bottle or more. Every night, 365 nights a year, it took me 22 months to stop again. Now weirdly, I don’t consider that a relapse. Like, in my own mind. I wasn’t like, I’m relapsing. It was like, I chose to drink again, because it was very conscious. And the whole time I was like, I know I’m gonna have to stop. Like, I know this is bad. I know. It’s unsustainable. But in my mind, I was like, I don’t want to stop yet. Like I could probably eke out a couple more years. And just

 

43:38

yet, should he say, oh, yeah, a few more years of like, logging out of the diary on a Sunday and feeling like we have mental health issues. I mean, that’s what we used to do. I used to,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  43:49

but that’s not out. During that time. I was not trying to be like, Okay, so I’m not gonna drink this week. I need to take a break. I need. But yeah, what about you? Did you relapse? Do you consider? You know,

 

44:03

I just wanted to. I was just wondering, because we were talking about that shame thing, I was, suddenly had a thought that perhaps, if we still feel shame about our drinking, whether it makes us more likely to relapse. And that’s why I asked because I just thought, gosh, we’re both saying here that we don’t have shame about it now. And I wonder whether that’s something that comes, you know, a bit later on in sobriety, because I wonder if people relapse sometimes because they do feel such stigma that surrounds it, and that they feel like they’re doing something wrong, and they can’t see out of it. And they feel like they’re always going to feel shame. 

 

Yeah, what we both said, it’s like if shame does go away, and you don’t have to feel it anymore. Sorry, what was the question? Well,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  44:42

I was thinking if you do it right, and I know this. Yes, I think two things help. One, you know, getting help for whatever the underlying issue is, right? Like drinking is really a maladaptive coping strategy. So you take away that coping strategy and then You still often have whatever led you to drink. So figuring out and working through other ways to solve for those issues is important once you’ve stopped drinking, but the second part is not thinking that it is a huge, awful thing to stop drinking, but rather feeling like this is something to be proud of. It’s a healthy choice. Wow, I’m a badass. Like, I’m not the only one. That makes it kind of less likely because you have fewer triggers to want to drink. But you also feel less deprived? Because you’re just like, No, I’m choosing this. What do you think? Yeah.

 

45:39

Well, for me, I remember waking up. I mean, I’d started to question my drinking after the birth of my first child. And then I tried to combine those two lives. But there’s that place where people don’t talk about which is that, you know, being a mum and being a party girl, and those two worlds, that transition is really hard if you’re a big drinker. So I went from being out at nightclubs and being this crazy girl that I’ve talked about. So then being stuck at home, in an apartment with a crying baby on my own. And of course, the only thing I knew how to do to escape that was to go out and find a mother’s group and be like, Come on, let’s you know, rip our shirts off to Blondie on the dance floor and go crazy. 

 

So that’s what I did. So for four years, even though anxiety started to infiltrate my hangovers, though, every Sunday because I was incapable of looking after my child. I still did that thing that you did, you know, I tried to combine these worlds that were obviously colliding, and it was getting messy. I didn’t know another way of being me. So I just went on, and on. Every Sunday, the anxiety was getting worse. And I had to listen to my husband getting the baby ready. Taking the baby out for the day. Well, I sat in bed and ran to the toilet every two minutes. It just was really horrible. And then after my second child was born, I managed to get pregnant again. Six weeks after she was born, I went out and got hugely wasted. And I think for me, it was just, I had been struggling with it. And I knew I was struggling with it. But I didn’t know sobriety was a possibility. It just seemed extremely far fetched. I was like, Nah, I’m not doing that. 

 

So but that one Sunday morning, I remember waking up lying in bed with waves of fear crashing over my body feeling extremely unlevel in my brain, you know, that equilibrium had just been battered. Yeah, and I just walked into the lounge and said to my husband, I cannot do this anymore. I am doing something that I hate. And I’m trying to work out ways, like moderation or beers, just drink beers or, you know, wines, water between wines, all that rubbish, that I think it was just one hangover too far. And that was it. And I never drank again. Well, I got therapy. I literally found a therapist that morning, I started therapy, and that was that. Because I realized I was drinking for a reason. It was because of that situation at school. It was because I was people pleasing. And I didn’t realize I was drinking for a reason before then. 

 

And that’s the beauty of therapy or getting any sort of help, whatever problem you have, is that you need somebody else to go, this is why and this is why you do this and you are filling that hole in your heart with alcohol, you didn’t have a choice and all of these things. And with therapy, I was able to build that new foundation for my life that didn’t include alcohol, and be the person I knew I was inside that nobody else got to see. I mean, everybody thought I was boring afterwards. But I’m not boring now. Like, I’m living a fascinating life, like doing all this sober curious stuff and doing everything I do. It’s hugely interesting. It’s much better than me being passed out in a gutter. It’s just opened up this whole new world to me. And I just feel like wow, why would I go back to that? 

 

Of course, I have moments of craving, you know, and nowadays I just, you know, go for a walk and go and look at the sunset and do something, you know, appeasing to me. That’s going to make me feel better. I have all these tricks of the trade, and I accept that cravings are going to be part of my sobriety. I think that’s something people, they try and avoid them or try and run away from them. I think I’ve got cravings, I’ve got cravings. I think something really helpful to do is actually embrace those cravings as part of your sobriety journey and go oh, yeah, there it is, breathe in those cravings or go and put the kettle on go, oh, yeah, I used to drink that, of course is going to happen because my brain is wired in that way and distract yourself with something else. I know those cravings can feel overwhelming at times because they certainly have for me, but it does get easier the longer you’re sober for sure. And I think that’s why I haven’t ever relapsed is because I just feel the mental and physical improvement within me is so severe like, why would I? Why would I go back there? I just, I know so much about alcohol now. Like I’ve educated myself on the damage. And I know the bigger picture. And I think that’s a really good thing to do is like, really, really go into it. Really find out your science behind it, what it’s doing to your brain. I don’t know, we interviewed William Porter, have you spoken to him? But yes,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  50:22

I love him.

 

50:24

I just love him. And like, we were talking about those, you know, waters between wines and all of that business. And he I remember, even then it was only probably six months I spoke to him. He said, no matter what you do, your body has to process the alcohol. And that is what causes the hangover. So no matter what you do, you are always going to have a hangover, and you’re always going to have mental health issues the next day. I was like what? And Lucy was telling me she used to eat a piece of salmon before she’d go out because you’d heard that salmon may not have hangovers.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  50:58

Oh my god. It’s so much work. Isn’t it? Like,

 

51:02

oh my god, imagine for what?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  51:05

Yeah, yeah, Blackout. I know, I know. My husband. When we finally talked about it. I was like, and then the next day, I would feel this crushing anxiety and wake up at 3am and feel ill and try to pull it together. And he was like, Wow, that’s quite a reward. He was like, tell her what she’s won for her big night out, you know? 24 hours. Self loathing. 

 

Yeah, we oh, I had William Porter on and it to this day is one of my favorite episodes. Because yeah, he just explains everything so well. Actually, his book is called Alcohol Explained. And my podcast episode with him is called Alcohol Explained as well. But he’s, I like what a, I like his accent, which, you know, it’s just very nice. But also he just explains things in such a logical and non judgmental way. That I feel like it’s really approachable.

 

52:01

Yes, I feel exactly the same. I just love his story. He was a lawyer going into work with some cans of beer under his smart work jacket sipping, sipping on the tube on the way to work. I mean, it’s so relatable and how quickly his drinking spirals and that’s the thing about this is that, you know, your stories resonate with everybody, like no matter. Like everything you said today is like, God, you sound exactly like me, like waking up at 3am. With palpitations, with doom and gloom bearing down on you. It’s just awful that we did that to ourselves for so long, isn’t it? I mean, yeah, it’s such a relief not to do that.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  52:39

And I don’t have to just tell people like, just to be like, Yeah, this Yeah, you know, I, I love talking with other women who quit drinking, because, and like becoming friends with them. Because a, you know, they have really good stories, like I laugh more with women who have quit drinking than anyone else. And there’s less like posturing trying to look like your life is perfect, or like the sort of shallow surface level conversations because they’ve done some work like they get real. I’m like, today sucked. And it’s not just today sucked because my work had XYZ or my boss did X. It’s like, my boss did x. And this made me feel this way. And here’s what it triggered in me, but in a really good, cool way.

 

53:32

That’s so funny, because that can cause some social anxiety, awkwardness, because now I feel exactly the same. But if I go and meet a group of women who still drink, and the conversation is very, very one level, because I’m used to go like if I organize a sober meetup, which we do one a month, literally, it’s like, why are you here? And you get to the nitty gritty, within two seconds of that person sitting down. It’s like, what is your relationship like with your mother in law? Why do you drink? Tell us your most disturbing story from your childhood? You get the level of conversation from sober people is so deep and so fascinating, fascinating and so funny. That when you actually meet people that still drink, you’re like, Oh, yeah. What’s the weather like? Yeah, yeah. Where do you live? It’s just, oh, my god, I can’t do this. I just want to go in. I’m like, so come on. Let’s get to this. I just, I cannot be bothered with this, like one level conversation anymore. And it probably causes me they probably think I’m completely weird, because I’m like, Yeah, I was a drinker. And I did this and I was crazy. And they’re probably just thinking, I’m completely mad. I often don’t get a second invite.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  54:42

That’s funny. Yeah. I mean, I think that you get a lot better with like, more discerning with the people you hang out with, like, I’m always like, Okay, if it’s not gonna be fun, if I’m not gonna drink, maybe it’s just not fun. Maybe those just aren’t the most interesting people. Pour. Maybe they’re the kind of people who always try to make you feel like shit because they’re trying to project that everything’s perfect. Like, yeah, if you if you don’t think it’d be any fun if you’re not drinking, it’s just not

 

55:13

fun. 

 

Somebody just wrote on my social network, literally, just before I spoke to you, I read a line, which said, I’m really having problems staying out after 10pm. I was like, those out after 7pm. Nothing good happens after 10pm. It’s just someone spitting in your face, telling the same story over and over again, probably some sleazy guy trying to dribble all over you. Like you don’t, you don’t have to live that life anymore. And you have to live a different life, you have to socialize in different ways. When I get up in the morning, I do my socializing at 5:45. Now, I go out to my little like free boot camp down the seafront, we all go for a swim afterwards. And then we will go and have a coffee. And I laughed my head off. And now I’m done. I’m like, right, I’ve done my socializing, the day is brilliant. And you got to change it up. You know, you can’t go to the same horn you used to go, you can’t, you know, go and see your old mates in the same pub in the same place. Doesn’t work like that. You got to change it up when you get sober. And, you know, that can feel extremely awkward. But it’s also going to be the most satisfying thing you ever do.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:17

Yeah, and I am right now extraordinarily jealous of you. Because I also work out in the morning with other women. But I live in Seattle, it just turned April. We work out in a parking lot garage because it rains so much in the dark. So. 

 

Oh, down by the waterfront in the Sunshine Coast of Australia. I know I’ve been there. I know how incredibly gorgeous it is. And it’s well done. I mean, had a summer too, right?

 

56:48

Yeah, I mean, it’s still like I don’t know what you, probably 80 degrees every day. Yeah, yeah. So that’s nice.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:54

Your morning socialization sounds a little bit better than mine. But still,

 

56:59

I’m sure we both love. I’m sure we both laugh just as much. Yes,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  57:03

I’m sure. Well, so tell me about all the things that you’re working on and where people can find you. Because I know you have a new project called Cuppa. But obviously you’ve got your podcast and your blog. So

 

57:17

yeah, so I started writing the day that I gave up drinking, I started writing a diary about everything that was happening to me because I did feel like the only person in the world that has quit a binge drinking issue. So I started writing a diary, which has become my book, which I hope to be published next year. It’s called the 1000 Wasted Sundays, of course, and it’s a comedic book about all the crazy shit lawyers get up to, and what it’s like now and becoming a parent, how, you know, that changed me. 

 

And I write the blog drunkmummysobermummy.com, which you can go on. And there’s loads of information for anyone who’s sober curious on there. I host the Sober Awkward podcast, me and Lucy record that every two weeks, because we have these crazy busy lives. So it’s not every week, unfortunately. But it takes us a while to pull ourselves together and get to the recording studio. And I’ve just released my new project, which is Cuppa. It’s a free social network for the sober and sober curious. So we have all these wonderful Facebook groups, but this is kind of going to be a combination of all of those. I’m so excited about it. And we’re trying to normalize having a cuppa, having a cup of tea, rather than having a beer. That’s the basis of it. 

 

So me and Lucy are big tea drinkers. Now we do like a tea and porridge session when renowned for it. And we’re trying to say, look, this, this sobriety journey has to be supported professionally, like I agree with you, Casey on that one. And this Cuppa site can be a bit of a backup to that. We’ve already got loads of members that are posting every day. So imagine Facebook, specifically for sober people. That’s what it is. But the best thing about it is, when you log in, if you want to put your name and where you’re from, you can click a button that says near me. And you can find all the sober people that live in your area and you can click on them and arrange to meet for a cup of tea. So it kind of replaces meetups, there’s an area on there, which is called events and you can just add your own sobriety events. 

 

So it just opens up the sobriety world to everybody. You can create your own group so there’s like yesterday I created a 5k a day sober walks and people are putting all their walk pictures on there. There’s a drunk mommy sober mommy group. There’s a sober dad’s, there’s sober dating, there’s daily affirmations group. It has all of that. So what we realized with Lucy and I was that our Sober Awkward listeners wanted. They wanted more, they wanted to meet people like Lucy and I did, you know? Lucy got sober three days after meeting me because she just needed to resonate with someone who just needed to meet someone that wasn’t boring, so that she could see that sobriety was a possibility for her. And that’s what copper is. It’s like a huge version of that. Meeting people for a couple you can meet online

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:00

I mean, you can do zoom calls and it’s all completely free. That’s what we wanted to do. Yeah, because one of the things that I get asked all the time is how do I find other people who are on the alcohol free journey in my area? And you know, I’m a member of different sober groups. I’ve been a member, you know, my favorite one for nine years. But you know, the best suggestion I have is like, Oh, why don’t you post you’re from Madison, Wisconsin. Is there anyone around? And that’s hard? Like I’m incredibly lucky that in Seattle we have a She Recovers sort of sharing group that’s 200 women that are super great. Yeah. I love that I did her in kappa. Is it mostly people from Australia right now? 

 

1:00:51

Someone from Korea joined yesterday, there’s people in Germany, there’s, someone set up a meet, a cuppa meet for a Cup event in London, it’s going to be everywhere. In fact, most of the Sober Awkward listeners are in America, it’s taken over Australia. So I’m hoping there’s going to be loads all over the place that if you ever run in the events, you can just whack them on there, and people all over the world won’t be able to see them. So it’s a really good way. And I just stick to the theme of everything being free, no paid events. It’s just a way of sober people meeting, no matter how it is. And also the people I really want to get on there is people that are a bit further along in sobriety so that they you know, you have at all with that it might not feel like it but you have one up like you know the tools to get zoom. It’s like having a sober buddy at AA, having people on there that have been there and done the same things as you and being in that, you know, that spot of questioning your own behavior, but not knowing what to do. That’s what Cuppa is for. It’s for people to reach out and go here. I’m feeling this today. Is this normal? And everyone will go yes, it’s totally normal. And we’re here for you. So it’s basically a community and online community. And it’s cuppa.community online. Cool. Well,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:07

you sent me that link so I can just put it in the show notes and all. 

 

Yeah, for sure. 

 

Alright, thank you very much. I know it’s so early and you had a long night with your kids. But it was lovely to have this conversation.

 

1:02:20

It was so nice to meet you. I think we’re very similar, aren’t we? If you’re ever in Australia you have to come for a cuppa with me.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:27

I would love that because I’m a huge fan of Australia. So some day. 

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:08:16