So, when you stop drinking, it’s normal to wonder how sober sex, dating and relationships are going to work without alcohol as a social lubricant.

Sober Sex, Dating and Relationships with Tawny Lara

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Sober expert, recovery rocks, podcast, author, book, sober memoirs, sober curious, story, journalist, interview, mental health professionals, Doctors, queer, straight, non-binary, different ethnicities, cultural conversation, role of alcohol, love, lives, social lives, sex lives,
Boundaries, healthy relationships, accessible, relatable, long term relationship, mindful approach, behaviors, Dating Yourself, take care of yourself, get to know yourself, heal yourself, before you get into a relationship, trauma, PTSD, sober breakups, communicative, alcohol-free, communicate, communicating, sober journey, non-drinker, cultivate intrinsic courage, liquid courage, recovery, practice, connection, love yourself, love someone else, body image issues, confidence, tangible tips, writing prompts, meditation, drunk sex, prioritizing my own pleasure, therapy, peer support groups, writing, yoga, faking orgasms, Navigating the dating scene without alcohol, mental health choice, societal expectation, NA drink options, zero proof, marriage, married, committed, Dating, spouse, partner, try some new things, observe, movement, play, fun, quit drinking, more time, more energy, like-minded people, early sobriety, resentment, headspace, intuition, getting present with your body, learn,

Sober sex, dating, relationships, sober, sober dating, sober curious, sobriety, relating, hooking up, without the booze, liquid courage

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Tawny Lara

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a buzz, how to sit with your emotions when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there.

 

Today, we are talking about

 

sober sex, dating, and relationships.

 

And my guest is Tawny Lara. She’s a New York City based millennial also known as the sober sexpert. Her book, Dry Humping: A Guide to Dating, Relating, and Hooking Up Without Booze is out in bookstores now. She also co-hosts the signal word winning, Best Buddy podcast, Recovery Rocks.

 

And you can subscribe to our weekly column, Beyond Liquid Courage about all things sober dating, and relationships.

 

You might already know Tawny from her podcast, Recovery Rocks with Lisa Smith, who’s the author of Girl Walks Out of A Bar. And I also interviewed them both earlier on the podcast in Episode 111.

 

So Tawny, welcome.

 

02:19

Thank you so much for having me. It’s good to see you again.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  02:22

Yeah, it’s good to see you too. And actually, I was very excited to have this episode. Because I have to admit, I do not talk about sex very much. It’s not the area that I’m very comfortable talking about. And I’ve also been married for 20 years with my husband since I was like 24 years old. So, I think you’ve got a ton of experience to share. And I’m going to ask you lots of questions.

 

02:49

Bring it.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  02:51

First, tell me about the book and you and why you wrote it.

 

02:54

Yeah, I really, it’s going to sound so corny. I really wanted to write a book that I needed when I was newly sober, you know. I’d read tons of sober memoirs, you know, my bookshelf is full equivalent, let you know, just like yours is. And I really, I started this book actually as a memoir. And then I realized that there’s a lot that I want to keep personal, a lot of my own story that I want to keep personal.

 

But I’m still very obsessed with the conversation of sober sex, dating and relationships.

 

So, I pulled myself out of the story and put my journalistic hat on and interviewed tons and tons of people – sober, sober curious, queer, straight, non-binary, all different ethnicities, mental health professionals, doctors, you know, even people that drink alcohol, people that are sober curious.

 

So, my story is a little bit in the book, but it’s predominantly about the cultural conversation of the role that alcohol plays in our love, lives, and our social lives and our in our sex lives. And then to counteract that, the role that sobriety can play in your life.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  04:09

Yeah. And I was surprised because you know, when I read the title, especially like dating, relating, and hooking up without the booze. Number one, I thought it would apply more to people who are single, to people who haven’t been with their partner for a very long time. But in reading it, you absolutely cover people who’ve been in long term relationships with a single partner, as well as a whole range of topics that I wasn’t expecting, you know, beyond dating, relating, and hooking up without the booze.

 

You also talk about boundaries and healthy relationships, and conversation starters and, you know, a whole bunch of things that I wasn’t expecting. to read about or hear about, which was super helpful.

 

05:03

And that is honestly such a compliment to hear, because I wanted this book to be as accessible and relatable to as many people as possible. So, you know, if I hear that someone who’s in a long term relationship got something out of this book, that is the goal, you know. And when I hear that someone who still drinks alcohol, learned something from this book and is able to apply it to their life, that’s really the ultimate compliment, you know, just to show that we as a society are growing to hopefully more of a mindful approach to certain behaviors.

 

But to your point, the book is, you know, it’s structured. You know, chapter one is Dating Yourself. It’s how to take care of yourself, get to know yourself, heal yourself, before you get into a relationship. But I also talk about, you know, if there’s a section of that, that’s like, if you already are in a relationship, you still need to do this work. I would argue maybe even more than a single person, you know, and, you know, the book really follows the whole relationship trajectory of you know, getting to know yourself, getting to know your body, sober date ideas, sober sex, trauma, and PTSD.

 

You know, there’s a whole chapter on really heavy shit. And there’s a chapter on breakups, sober breakups, like that’s really, really hard. And ultimately, it ends with talking about how to be in a healthy, communicative, alcohol-free, or mindful drinking relationship, how to communicate with your partner, how to further – is a chapter about how to fight with your partner, which might seem silly, but fighting is important. Communicating is very, very, very important. And these are all things that I learned on my own sober, personal, sober journey, but I’m also in a long term relationship with another sober person.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  06:54

Yeah, and I thought it was interesting, too, in terms of going into even like the sober dating apps, and we’re going to get through all of this, but also something that I know a lot of my clients struggle with, which is dating someone who is still a heavy drinker and may not be supportive of your decision to be sober. I thought also you go through the responses, you know, telling someone that you’re not drinking, maybe telling someone who either you’ve already had a relationship with or someone brand new on a date, you know, what and their responses like, are they defensive or freaked out or supportive or indifferent? And ways to approach him?

 

I actually was like, Oh, my God, that is something that applies to literally every person who is stopping drinking, deals with not only in romantic relationships, but even telling their mother, their sister, their spouse, their best friend, their colleagues at work.

 

07:59

Yeah, I mean, it’s, yes, this is a book about alcohol-free dating, and relationships. But it’s, it’s not just romantic relationships, right? A lot of a lot of this work is transferable to all interpersonal relationships. getting sober has helped me be a better girlfriend, yes, but also a better daughter, a better friend, a better niece, a better writer, you know, like all of these communication skills and boundary setting that I talked about inner relation in a romantic relationship context, absolutely transferred to other relationships.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  08:34

Yeah. And I want to dive into all of that. And I thought it was really interesting that we have this conversation because I’ve definitely worked with clients who are dating and looking for a partner and have told me that there’s a one of the reasons they’re not stopping drinking or are second guessing it is because they feel like it’s a liability. And I need a partner. They’re worried that, “no one’s going to want to date a non-drinker”. And I know that we all have before we stopped drinking all have these preconceived ideas about what drinking or not drinking will mean for our social life and our career trajectory and everything else. But I think when you’re dating, it also adds that one more layer because as you wrote about a lot of dating and meeting people means restaurant or bar where you’re drinking.

 

09:35

Yeah, I kind of look at it as sober dating sober sex, sober relationships, I look at it almost as like you’re learning how to ride a bike without the training wheels. You know? You’re you. You have an idea, like, you have the foundation, you have the groundwork. You know what a date looks like, you know how to have sex you know how to, you know, be a girlfriend or, but you know how to do all of that with alcohol. So, you know, this is, this is really helping you.

 

I like to say, cultivate intrinsic courage – learning how to, which is why chapter one, Dating Yourself is so important. Getting in touch with who you are and working on yourself and finding that authentic organic confidence. So, you don’t have to rely on liquid courage. And again, you don’t have to be in recovery to practice this. This is really, for anyone who is a mindful drinker, sober curious, or 20 years in recovery, and completely abstinent from all substances, you know. What if you could even take the word sober out and just call it mindful dating and relationships? You know, that’s really what this is.

 

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  10:45

Yeah. And I remember, you know, dating people or hooking up even in college, and, you know, being with them being pretty drunk. And the next morning being like, did we have a connection? What does he think of me? What, what is the deal? Like? Because I literally, that liquid courage also completely skews your ability to almost interpret cues about how they really feel about you? Are they bored? Are they interested? You know, whatever.

 

11:18

I mean, and that’s why we all you know, have this shared joke of like beer goggles, you know, like, oh, well, I had my beer goggles on last night. And it’s like, you know, I feel like this book really? unpacks what is that? Like? We kind of joke about beer goggles, but like, what does that really mean? Like, you were so drunk that you thought something was a good idea? Let’s talk. Let’s talk about that. For a little bit.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  11:45

Someone was good looking or interesting. And yeah, you’re like, Oh, my God, this person is someone I literally would never date.

 

Yeah, yeah. Well, so let’s dive in kind of at the beginning, like Dating Yourself.

 

12:03

Yeah, you know, this chapter, it’s, it really goes off of the age, old concept of you. If you don’t love yourself, how can you love someone else? And how can you let someone else love you?

 

You know, I am definitely not the first person to talk about the importance of getting to know yourself before you enter a romantic relationship or work on your existing romantic relationship.

 

This book talks about that through the lens of sobriety, sober curiosity, or just alcohol-free life in general, and really figuring out why you’re sober. Why your sober curious, why do you rely on alcohol or liquid courage to have a first date? Why do you rely on liquid courage to try something new in the bedroom, the first couple chapters really home in on that. And a couple of specific examples are, you know, addressing body image issues. A lot of people I interviewed talked about how they relied or still rely on alcohol to feel more confident with their body, and in the bedroom, which is super relatable. I relate to that, feel that still, like, very, very relatable.

 

So, you know, and a lot of people, you know, drinking to make themselves do something in bed that they wouldn’t normally have the confidence to do maybe try a certain position, that they’re not comfortable trying without a little liquid courage. And, and it’s really, each chapter gives the reader tangible tips as well as you know, some writing prompts or meditation prompts to really think about like, why are you able to do this, this sexual position? Only if you’re drunk? What, Why do you need to be uninhibited? And what does being uninhibited mean to you? And I can’t tell you that that’s, that’s very personal to you to every single person, right? So, it’s, again, it’s more about being mindful and present. And for me, you know, I share a little bit in the book of like, my, my drunk sex was largely performative. It was largely for other people. I wasn’t prioritizing my own pleasure. And until I stepped back, did a lot of the arduous work on myself and therapy and peer support groups and writing and yoga and all this stuff, that I figured out what sex means to me, what I want it to mean, unlearning what I thought it should mean, you know what, all those women’s magazines and teen magazines that we that we read. I internalized a lot of that and so unlearning these tired tropes and figuring out you know, what, discerning what I want my sexuality to be versus what has been projected and expected of me.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  14:57

Yeah, yeah. And one thing I thought was interesting because you wrote about it in the book was, faking orgasms, which I don’t know who’s listening to this, but I literally don’t know anyone who hasn’t done that.

 

Yeah. Even if you just want to like, speed up the process. Yeah, like, I’m tired. Let’s see. Oh my god. Yep. Yep. I think it all works. Because you don’t want to make them feel bad or whatever.

 

Yeah. You said that you actually, other than with yourself, had never had an orgasm during sex before you got sober.

 

15:32

Yeah, I mean, it was very, you know, it was very difficult for me to find pleasure. In sex, in general. I thought that it don’t get me wrong. I had a good time. I had a fun time. But like I said, it was largely performative. I didn’t, I was so focused on the performance, I didn’t let myself show up authentically. Like as you know, authenticity is like such a overdone word at this point, but like that, I really wasn’t letting myself because I was way more concerned with the other person’s pleasure than my own. Which is why, you know, in chapter one, I talked about the importance of getting to know your own body, like there’s a masturbation exercise. And

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  16:14

And I was like, Okay, I’m not doing that.

 

16:17

And that’s totally fine. You know, finding, getting in touch with my own body helped me realize what does feel good to me. And then again, that helped me feel more confident to ask for what I wanted in the bedroom. So, I stopped faking orgasms, trying to please all these other people, and to learn what I wanted, you know, and it should be sex, dating relationships, it should be a shared experience. And I’m not saying it has to be fun all the time. It’s definitely not. But if you are engaging in a sexual act with someone else, be present with them. Be, you know, do what feels good for you. If they want to try something that you’re not ready to try. Say that. It’s totally okay to say that. And if you want to try something new, it’s totally okay for you to ask for that. And these are things that I just didn’t have the intrinsic courage to stand up for myself.

 

When I was drinking, I didn’t think I was not thinking about my own pleasure at all. It was sex was very much for other people. Or maybe like, a bucket list.

 

Like, oh, yeah, I did that. But it was, you know, it just I wasn’t getting. Yeah, I wasn’t having like a really soulful, deep sexual experience before.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  17:35

And one thing that I found, you know, in terms of saying what you want or need or advocating for yourself, like, for me, it was also just really practical, like I am, you know, earlier, late afternoon sex girl, right? Like, that’s when I’m awake and present. Like, in the mood, like, it’s definitely not first thing in the morning anymore. And like, we go on date nights, but when we get home at 10 at night, I’m also I’m like, Oh, that’s great. feel super close to you. I’m fucking tired. You know what I’m done, to crawl into bed at but you can actually have that conversation without being like, Dude, we went on a date. So now we need to have sex, you know, and then it’s way better the next day at two in the afternoon, you know?

 

18:23

Well, and it’s also like, you know, the sex columnist Dan Savage has a great line. It’s like, what does it broaden your definition of sex and narrow your definition of cheating. And focusing on the former of what you just said, or what we’re saying is like, broadening your definition of sex it like doesn’t, you don’t have to have intercourse. When you get home from date night, maybe you’re, maybe you’re snuggling and you’re recapping your day. And like you feel really content with that maybe you engage in mutual masturbation, maybe one of you just wants to get off and the other person’s too tired. And like who, there’s no rules here like that. That’s kind of the beauty of it is you and your husband can figure out what works best for you. And then when you have those conversations, and you figure out what works best for you. It gets a lot easier because there’s no expectation there’s no fault. There’s no There’s no like disappointment, there’s no false hope. It’s just like if you can communicate about what you want out of the evening, and then if each of you can communicate about what you want out of the evening, and you meet each other in the middle. That’s amazing. Who cares if you have penetrative sex or not like it’s, it’s it is about a relationship is about so much more than that.

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit.

 

The Sobriety Starter Kit is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  19:43

Well, so let’s start on, you know, something that I know very little about, which is sort of sober dating. You start with talking about, you know, how to communicate that you’re alcohol-free on dating apps or when you’re reading something out For the first time, you know, do you text them? Do you tell them in person? Tell me about that. What? Yes. About the pros and cons, which I’m like, oh, that’s, I mean, all of it.

 

20:10

So yeah, this is like, the, there’s a whole chapter about navigating the dating scene without alcohol. And it’s like, the pros and cons you’re talking about is like, okay, like option one, I can put sober on my dating profile or sober curious, alcohol-free. I can be very upfront on my dating profile. And then in the book, I talk about the pros of that. And then the cons of that. And then I also talk about, you know, maybe waiting until after you’ve matched, and you’re in your DM or Face Timing, or something, and then you can, you can talk about it, there’s also the option of waiting until you’re in person. And we were maybe even waiting a couple of dates until you share something like that.

 

Pros and cons for all of these different options. And, for me, I am a Capricorn who loves efficiency. So, I wanted, I just, I wanted to save my time and save everyone else’s time. And I liked putting it on my dating profile. I wanted to be very upfront, because the number one question is, let’s grab a drink. And I just didn’t want to waste anyone’s time with that. And this was again, I was sober dating in 2015 to 2018. So, the dating apps were definitely a thing. But not anything like they are now like, I was still dating like, I IRL dating was still pretty big at the time. So, I definitely acknowledged that the game has changed a bit and there’s, there are sober dating apps now, you know.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  21:48

How big are they? Are there actually a lot of people on them?

 

21:53

It definitely depends on the different areas. I would say like LA and New York City, Chicago, there’s definitely a bigger pool. But even apps like, you know, hinge and Bumble, and like Bumble has a sober filter that you can play with. Hinge is great. I think because you can disclose, you know if like it says like 420, friendly, moderate drinker, don’t drink, like, you can make it as big of a deal as you want or as chill as you want. Some people want to lead with it. And just like, look, I’m in recovery. Like, I’m not fucking around here.

 

Some people want to be a little bit more covert, a little more low key and only talk about their sobriety or sober curiosity. If it comes up in conversation, that’s, you know, that’s fine, too. So, I really wanted the reader to have multiple options, and be prepared with the pros and cons. And there’s, there’s other I’m sure there’s other options, too. There are just a few that I went over in the book. But those are those were from my experience, you know.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  23:00

yeah. And all the things that I’ve seen coming out in the news is that sober curiosity is a much bigger thing. Now ,it’s no longer if you don’t drink or you don’t drink often, that I’m in recovery, it might just that it’s a Health Choice, or it’s a mental health choice. I mean, Generation Z is drinking, I mean, significantly lesser than their parents or grandparents did at the same time. And that’s why there’s so many more NA drink options and sober bars, like it’s no longer the biggest thing in the world.

 

23:39

Yeah, and I’m really grateful to see those studies come out, because it definitely gives me hope for the future. I think as we all I think, as the West embraces more mindfulness, and you know, yoga, meditation, more people are vegan now than ever before more people recycle. I mean, like we’re just in a more, I think culturally, we’re just more present. We’re more aware of the food that we’re eating. So, it makes sense that we’re more mindful of the, of what we’re putting into our body with our drinks. But I mean, I’m also very aware that people are drinking less alcohol. And cannabis is being legalized in many states. So, like, I’m sure there’s a correlation there. But it’s also like, there is this societal expectation that you go get drinks on a date, there’s not a societal expectation that you smoke weed on a date. I know.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  24:35

Yeah. When sometimes I always think that, let’s get a drink, is just sort of shorthand in the same meaning, I want to spend time with you. Let’s get together in the evening or whatever it is, like it’s not, you know, sometimes Let’s get a drink means. Let’s get a beverage and talk and it doesn’t really matter if you order Have Mojito or a non-alcoholic or zero proof Mojito? Like, what’s the difference?

 

25:05

Yeah, I mean, you’re absolutely right. It’s a, let’s get a drink implies alcohol, but it doesn’t have to mean alcohol. And that is a great chance for, you know, you the data to say, yeah, like, let’s go to this coffee shop, or let’s go to this new, you know, sober bar that just popped up, you know, like, you can, like I said, you can make it as low key as possible, like, you don’t have to, like have this huge deal of like, well, I don’t drink alcohol. So, my options are limited. It’s like, well, here, here are these two options that I love. And, you know, like, really, like, have some confidence in it. And I also have a chapter that’s sober date ideas.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  25:48

I was going to say, I thought that was fantastic. Like it was, I had fun with that one be like, actually, there’s this very cool thing going on.

 

How about we do that? And it’s yeah, it’s not really, it’s, I’m encouraging people to be more to, to engage in more activity based dates. And by that, I mean, you know, going for a walk, going to a botanical garden, going to a museum, like going to do something cultural, do something, it’s interesting, because like the whole, let’s get a drink thing, even if you’re at a coffee shop, or you’re at a sober bar or whatever, you’re still just like, you’re still just sitting across from each other, staring at each other. And it can be like really awkward, like, dating is really awkward, let’s be real. So that’s why I encourage some sort of movements.

 

So, let’s say you go to a museum, you’re walking around, and you’re observing an exhibit, and you’re looking at different pieces of artwork, and sculptures or botanicals, wherever you go. You’re, you’re talking about what you’re observing, and you’re experiencing this thing together, as opposed to sitting at a coffee shop. And what do you do for a living where, you know, what do you do for fun? Where are you from? That’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with you. There’s nothing wrong with that, you know, this is just the experiential dates, can create a little bit more of an intimate experience. You’re, you’re doing something new together, which is already really interesting, as opposed to like, unloading all of your shit on someone else for the first time.

 

It’s like, what do you think of this painting? What do you think of these botanicals? What do you think of these animals at the zoo? Like you’re talking? You’re talking about things as opposed to just talking about yourself? Which, for, you know, in early sobriety, I needed that I didn’t want to, I didn’t want to talk about myself. I wanted to talk about anything else. So, you know, like, dinner in a movie is a classic date for a reason. Like, you don’t have to, you don’t have to have drinks for that you can have a really nice dinner. You go watch a movie, then you talk about the movie that you just watched,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  28:01

you know? Yeah, totally. I mean, I found that even when I stopped drinking, one of the things I was I was not most scared of but really had to think through carefully was date nights with my husband, because we used to always go drink, right? Like, we’d go to a restaurant and drink, or we’d go bar hopping and sit at the bars and drink. And so, I really was like, Okay, what the fuck are we going to do? So, I like, whatever. And of course, we knew each other really? Well. We did things like, go to a waterfront park, and bring books and listen to music and talk about all the people we were watching. Yes, you know, that’s also good, because you’re like sitting next to each other, you’re not staring at each other. So, in the same way that first dates are awkward, going out to dinner with someone who you’ve lived with forever, and just deal with, of like bills and work and kids. Like, that’s kind of awkward to because you’re like, do you know so you already know everything about each other.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  29:10

So, it’s like, so you need something to talk about something a topic that’s interesting, or we went to a bookstore, and planned a trip to Amsterdam and went to a movie or sat at the sushi bar. Same way, we used to sit at the bar at restaurants, because then you know, you could watch the people making sushi the way we used to talk to the bartender. So I think that your ideas are fantastic. And I like the activity based ones even for people who are figuring out how to date their spouse.

 

29:45

Yeah, and I am so glad that you that you shared that I love the sushi idea. You know the chapter it really gives people date ideas for wherever they are in their dating lives. So, if you’re, you know first couple dates, if you’re or if you’ve been together for a little while, and then like marriage, you know, married. Committed like, this is, you know, there’s all these different date ideas for different levels of relationship. And, and you’re absolutely right. Dating your spouse. Dating your partner like you, you do need to like, try some new things. You do need to observe some stuff instead of just talking about your day, because you were already together all day, you already know what your day was like. But it’s like, that’s why these experiential dates can be super helpful. And there is something to like, if you can incorporate some movement, it definitely helps relieve anxiety, it can help you get rid of those first date jitters. Just adding any sort of movement, you know, go going bowling, go roller skating, go just going for a walk, like even maybe you meet at a coffee shop, but then you go for a walk with your coffee, you know, like just adding a little bit of movement.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  30:57

Yeah and by the way, it kind of makes you a more interesting person, then yeah, just sitting around talking and, you know, ordering a couple of drinks like, and I feel like, it helps you have more fun, like one of the things I think is really fun. It’s like, go to an amusement park. We just had a class and like, you know, that giant boat that goes up and down and like that hits your adrenaline, like you’re just like, damn, I am laughing in a way is that I haven’t in forever.

 

31:33

That’s such a good reminder that adults, we forget to play, we forget to be silly and play. So, an amusement park is such a great idea of getting a little bit of that adrenaline doing something new or something you haven’t done in years together. Like, that’s fun.

 

Like, as like you said, dealing with the daily minutiae of bills and kids and mortgage, like, all this stuff is like, you have you have to make time for fun. You have to make time for play. And I think you know, kids, kids remind us of that pets’ special. I just, we just adopted a puppy. She definitely what binds us of that. She’s a pit. We adopted her at three months, and she’s seven months now. And she reminds me how important it is to be silly and just play.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  32:30

Yeah, yeah. we got when I was one year sober. We got two little Siberian Tabby kittens, their brothers. And like, I eat just brought me so much joy. Every like they watching their little bodies go down the stairs. I was like, oh my god, I love you. And still now, my son’s home for the summer. I mean, all my family is but my son literally is like sitting in the living room every time I come out of my office unless he’s got sports or something. I’m always coming out and being like, Hello, gentlemen. And I talked to them all the time. And I said, like Jesus Christ, how much time do you spend talking to your cats? Cats? I’m like, dude, have a load. They make me

 

33:14

Yeah, no, same. Like my, we have a cat as well. Like our, our cat and dog. Like those are my coworkers, they, we go on breaks together.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  33:23

We do everything together. Yeah. And when I like one of the things I did, when I was not drinking, I would go on walks from work to like, break up my day and get outside, get some movement. And there was right near my office, an off leash dark dog park, that went down to the water. And I would just walk there because it would make me happy. You know, like seeing all the different kinds of dogs talking to people like, it’s just cool.

 

3:53

That’s been huge for me, since we adopted our puppy. We have a dog park, on our block here in New York City, which is such a gift to have that. And you know, I take her name Stevie after Stevie Nicks. I take her there several times a day. And it is just like, it’s really hard to be grumpy when there’s like dogs playing and like puppies jumping on you. Like it’s just a reminder to like get out of your head. There’s a whole world out there other there’s other species and there’s other humans there’s like, you know, and I think a dog park is also like a really interesting way to meet people because you’re already connecting over something organic. Like you’re, you’re you live in the same neighborhood and you both have dogs. So, that’s interesting right there.

 

So, like, you know, and I share that because one of the biggest questions I get is like, Well, how am I going to make friends? Let alone find a date. How am I even going to make a friend without alcohol, you know, and it’s, it’s really putting yourself in these different situations. Whether you’re going to a dog park, you’re taking a writing class, you’re you take a pottery class, you’re, you know what you have to find these new hobbies and these new places to go, in order to find new people in your life that don’t drink alcohol.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  35:14

Yeah, one of my clients was, you know, used to run a lot and she joined a trail running group. And that was a great way for her, you know, you have more time, you have more energy, and they stopped drinking want to get into shape, because you’ve just been drinking and hungover for a long time. And you get that endorphin and that adrenaline and all that good stuff.

 

So, I think that when you drink, your entire world sort of shrinks, you don’t even realize it, you’re like unconsciously envying the interests you have the people you hang around with the activities you do to incorporate alcohol, and it’s actually a big opportunity once you stopped drinking, to like, expand that. Like I found that I made more friends and had more fun once I got out of the really crappy early sobriety.

 

Yeah. In my first year alcohol-free, I made, you know, as a barometer, when I quit drinking, it was 2016. It was really the world of Facebook, you know, when they recap your friends? Yeah. Like I made more friends in the first year, alcohol free than I had in my previous three years. And online friends, they like real relationships. Like, honestly, they knew more about me and reached out and connected with me more than some of my best friends from high school.

 

36:44

Oh, I 1,000% relate to that. I mean, I found, you know, Lisa, my podcast co-hosts, she, and I met on Instagram. So many of my friends that I spend most of my time with are people that I found through New York City, #sober, you know, like, going to sober curious events. You meet like-minded people, and even if, if you even if you maybe you don’t live somewhere where there’s a thriving, sober scene. I think just finding new hobbies is an excellent way to meet people. Like I said, like early sobriety. I was taking writing classes, I was studying Spanish, I also joined a running group, like whether or not my new friends drank didn’t really matter, because we met with this shared interest. And we had these healthy hobbies that we shared together, we would meet up and run, or we would meet up and study Spanish. And I needed those types of relationships in my life in order to, you know, grow as a human, but also, I didn’t want to just be alone all the time, I thought getting sober was going to be like sitting alone in my apartments, like who’s going to hang out with me? And it’s, it’s like, we like we just said, it is actually the complete opposite of that.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  38:05

Yeah, I think one of the biggest fears everyone has is that they’re going to be boring or bored, when they stopped drinking, or sort of socially ostracized. And if you put in some effort and creativity, you will find that your life is infinitely more interesting. And you’re more interesting, when you stop drinking. It takes some effort, right? You have to go out and join some things and try some new stuff and you’re going to be uncomfortable, because that’s just life anytime you do something new, but it’s good, too.

 

38:43

It’s, it’s hard, you know, I don’t want to sugarcoat it and say that, you know, sobriety is, is easy, because it’s real. It’s not. And early sobriety can be one of the hardest things you ever do. Even super curiosity can be one of the hardest things you ever do, you know, but I would also argue that, at least for me, living walking around with undiagnosed mental health issues and self-medicating with alcohol was also really, really hard. So, you really just have to pick as corny as it sounds, you just kind of have to pick which difficulty you’re going to go with. Yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  39:21

Well, and so one thing I wanted to dive into from your book that I think a lot of people deal with is, you know, I talked about how when you were talking about communicating, you don’t drink there are different levels of responses. So defensive, freaked out, supportive in different sort of built into that is dating or relationships or already being in a marriage or partnership with someone who is a heavy drinker because that’s unique. I mean, one of the things I know they have on dating profiles is Like, some version of big drinkers, or they mentioned it a lot in their interests, or they are holding a lot of, you know, drinks in every picture, like, Tell me about that scenario. And then we’ll talk about if you’re already in a long term relationship with a big drinker.

 

40:17

Yeah, I mean, that is, that’s one of the biggest questions that I that I received while writing the book. And I still actually, in that weekly advice column, this most recent week, I didn’t have an issue on that of like, you know, this guy that I’m dating, this is, this is a question not me. But you know, this reader was like this guy that I’m dating, you know, we have a really good time, we have great sex, but II, he drinks pretty frequently. And he does coke sometimes. And I don’t, it was just, it was this delicate balance of like, I want to meet him where he is like, we’re having fun. He’s not my forever, but he’s Mr. Right now. So, it’s like, how do I do this? And it’s, I really think that in order to navigate those types of situations, like to go back to the very beginning of the episode, you have to really focus on the Dating Yourself part. The longer that you spend Dating Yourself and really focusing on your shit, the more capable you are of handling these types of situations, you’ll know.

 

Actually, this is actually really triggering. I can’t date someone who does coke. I can’t date someone who drinks excessively or even drinks. Maybe you can’t even be with someone who has a glass of wine at dinner, like you have to know you have to know these things. Yeah, and you have to figure out what works best for you. When I was early, sober dating, anytime someone had a drink in their profile picture on the apps, I was a swipe left. I was like, if you’re going to lead with that, I’m out. Like, if you I could date a social drinker, I dated casual drinkers, that was not a problem for me. But like, if you’re getting shit faced on a Tuesday night, like what do we have to talk about? Like, we’re not in the same hemisphere right now. Totally tricky. And the reason that I air all of that is because I don’t think you should date and put yourself in these situations until you’re absolutely ready, which is, again, why it is essential to focus on yourself.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:24

And one of the things you talk about is signs that you shouldn’t date a drinker. And, you know, that’s definitely something that I’ve seen too, like in the biggest one is, when they drink, you fantasize about sharing that drink with them. And I, I don’t think it’s unusual for anyone who loved drinking, and had a love-hate relationship with alcohol, because it also made you feel like shit or whatever, to not be jealous.

 

Someone in front of you having a drink, right? Because I feel like, you know, I went to a wine bar, long story, but it was at the end of a hot air balloon ride for my birthday. Right, quit drinking. And I went in there, and everybody was tasting red wine, which was my jam. And I literally like left in tears because I felt like they were making out with my ex-boyfriend, and I loved him so much more than they ever could. So, it’s normal to be jealous or resentful in early sobriety, if someone is drinking around you.

 

And that’s where a boundary comes in, right? Where you need to be like, Alright, I’m checking in with myself and a whole lot of negative emotions, you know, that are not good for you. You know, even if you don’t drink anytime you’re hanging out with someone a date if you feel you know, resentment and jealousy and anger like maybe that’s a sign it’s not a great date.

 

44:03

Yeah, you don’t want to feel that way. Especially with the first time you’re meeting someone have those feelings are rising. That’s probably not who you need to be spending your time with right now. Yeah, it’s an I loved your metaphor of seeing people drinking red wine like they were hooking up with your ex. That’s brilliant. I mean, that’s dating someone who drinks can bring up a lot of emotion. It can bring up jealousy. Like you said, some resentment for me brought up like, well, how come they know how to have one drink and stop but I don’t you know, it was like, What’s wrong with me? Why can they do that? And I can’t and it just like, it put me in some not great headspace and that wasn’t good for my early sobriety.

 

So, you know, I had to, I had to figure out you really is like, the body scan, like a gut check of like, getting present with your body like your intuition. In listening to your gut, your body knows like your body knows if you’re uncomfortable. And I think something that I don’t know, there’s this motto, I guess that I’ve kind of adopted. If it’s not a hell yes, it’s a hell no.

 

Yeah, that, that doesn’t apply to every situation. But it applies to more than you’d realize. And I definitely integrated that into my dating life or even making new friends once I quit drinking, you know. It was like, if I feel even a little bit uneasy around this person’s drinking, it’s not good for me. And that, you know, brings us into another topic of like, this is why people often feel defensive. If you quit drinking, they think you’re being judgmental, and you’re not, you’re actually taking care of yourself. Like, it’s, this has nothing to do with you. I just cannot. I cannot be around this type of behavior right now. And someone will take offense to that. Like, that’s just how it is. And it sucks. It’s really hard. You learn who your real friends are, you learn who your drinking buddies are. It’s painful, it’s actually quite painful.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  46:14

Well am I know also that like stopping drinking, is drinking is so tied to our identity, if we’ve done it for years, and years and years, and there are a lot of beliefs around what it does for us, you have a lot of fears about what will happen to your relationship when you stopped drinking. But I found that the partners also have a lot of fears on what it means when you stopped drinking to the point where like, husbands have been worried that their wives won’t be interested in them, or will grow apart from them, like their own insecurities about you no longer wanting to be with them. If you get healthy and jealous of the new friends you’re making, and, you know, even if you’re improving, there’s this desire to like, pull you back into what are you.

 

47:06

Oh yeah, that’s, and you know, even just hearing you describe all of this, it’s, it should sound like a no brainer, right? Like, if someone’s jealous or mad at me, because I’m getting healthy. What does that say about them?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  47:21

You know, and I think the same thing happens when someone tries to sabotage you, or Moxie for not drinking, or pressures you to just have a drink, whether it’s a friend or someone you’re dating or anything else, because, you know, imagine you were vegetarian. And they were a meat eater, like part of it is like, who cares? You guys just ordered different meals. But like, they were like, Come on, why just have one burger. Like, you’d be like, dude, that is incredibly shitty of you. Right? It’s insensitive. It’s unnecessary.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  47:57

And I mean, it’s weird. Like someone was like, Just have a taste of meat. You’d be like, That’s fucking weird. Oh, my God, I don’t eat really strange it. Yeah. You know, I think anyone who is who loves you for you, and is supportive of you will accept and support your decision to not drink or to drink less right now? Anyone who questions who doubts you who tries to convince you to keep drinking, those are some red like raging red flags. And when those red flags come from someone you’ve been with for 15 years, 20 years, even your committed partner of two years, you know, like, that can be really, really hard. When you like you said, Take a stand to get healthy and the other person doesn’t want to, it’s really, really difficult to keep those relationships going. The other person is most likely going to feel judged. And you might realize alcohol is the only thing you have in common.

 

You might also just have some really uncomfortable growing pains and go to couples therapy and individual therapy and work on your shit and maybe you’ll find some happy medium, you know, like it’s relationships are really hard, and you have to put a lot of work into them. Anyone who says, you know, relationships should be easy, or relationships are easy. Like, if it requires a lot of work, it’s not worth it. I don’t like. I don’t know what kind of relationship they’re in. Like, that’s insane. Your relationship with yourself requires constant work. So, of course, your relationship, your marriage, your partnership is going to require a ton of work.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  49:46

Yeah, and sometimes it’s just needing to give them some space to see it’s going to be okay like when I stopped drinking. All I told my husband was that I was taking 100 day break I didn’t, I was freaked out by the idea of never again, I know he would be completely freaked out. And so we kind of eased into it without this like, so we figured out that we could have sex and we could date and we could do all these things. And actually, our life was more peaceful and I was less emotionally unstable. And, you know, things flowed better. There was hard stuff too. But I think easing someone in and you talk about this in your book that when you’re drinking, you let a lot of shit go or you’re numbed out that once you’ve stopped drinking, you realize is not okay, and it’s okay to put down new boundaries, and hold them to respecting that, you know, they may not immediately be like, Oh, my God, I know what your boundaries are. Yeah.

 

50:47

Yeah. And I mean, it’s our partners aren’t mind reader’s, right. I mean, they, we have to communicate what’s going on with us. And so they can know how to show up for us how to support us. And, you know, if if you’re listening and someone that you love is sober, sober, curious, like, I highly recommend, you know, Al Anon meetings. Super helpful. They’re designed for people who love someone who is in recovery, but they don’t necessarily have to be even sober, curious counts, I think. And this could be allanon is helpful for anyone who’s like in recovery from, you know, eating disorders, gambling, and anything, it’s really a lesson on like, it gives you the tools on how to take care of yourself, so you can show up for them, not how to fix them. And that is one of the hardest parts, like the most supportive thing you can do for a loved one getting sober is just let them know that you’re there for them. Check in periodically ask how they’re doing. But it’s not your responsibility as much as you love them. It is not your responsibility. And it’s really, really difficult to accept that.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  52:02

Okay, so I know we’re kind of coming to the end. But I want realized that I’d love to talk more about the thing that I don’t talk about a lot. So, talking about sober sex, but like tips, you have aphrodisiacs and sexual liberation, like give me the dirt, or give our listeners ideas of all the things I never talked about.

 

52:25

Well, there is a whole chapter called, herbal aphrodisiacs. And I, one of my pandemic hobbies was studying herbalism and I’m not an herbalist, I’m very amateur, it’s just reading about herbs is just a fun hobby. But I learned that there are some herbs that have historically been used for their Afro desirable effect, which means they have historically been used to help you relax, help you get in the mood. And as with any medication, talk to your doctor before, even entertaining, possibly into integrating herbal medicine into your life. But you know, in the book, I talk about certain herbs that have been used to, you know, stimulate libido, decrease erectile dysfunction, you know, things like that. And also, just some herbs that are designed to help you relax, help you like, The more relaxed you can feel, the easier it is to get in the mood, the easier it is to get intimate with somebody. But it’s also something.

 

There’s a section of that chapter called Emotional aphrodisiacs, and it really boils down to communication, and it’s about talking, you know, it’s about, it’s about communicating, like what you’re feeling plant, you know, maybe doing some different sensory play, finding other ways to get into your body. And the reason I’m feeling all of these other alternatives out there is because a big question that I get is like, okay, like, how do I feel like I just took a shot of tequila without taking a shot of tequila. And while there’s there, I’m really sad to report there is no direct replacement for alcohol. There is no direct replacement for liquid courage, like the reason we all loved it so much is because it’s fast. It’s easy, and it has a really quick body response. Like it’s easy to get, it’s cheap, like alcohol is very easy to get. And it changes your mood within minutes, right? There’s no other thing that can do that. And so, the whole point of this book, honestly, is to get you to slow down get you to figure out what’s going on with your body and mind without alcohol. And if you do miss the liquid courage, like there is no quick band aid, you know, like the replacement for liquid courage. Real, it’s work. And I just want to be very transparent about that. It is doing work on yourself doing work on your romantic relationships. And then that’s like, like I was saying, if that’s how you’re going to go cultivate that intrinsic courage, as opposed to liquid courage, there’s no get rich quick scheme. There’s no, there’s no lose 20 pounds in a week, like, none of none of this stuff that happens really fast is good for you or worth your time. So, and I would apply that same thing to liquid courage.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  55:20

Well, although you’re completely and totally right, one of the things I think is part of the most valuable piece of your book is the conversation starters, including around how to mix things up in the bedroom, or how to try new things, or how to talk about what you might be interested in trying or liked or didn’t like, because, you know, that’s something I’m not used to doing. And so, I like, and I’m sure a lot of other people aren’t as well. So, I think that it’s helpful that you have in there how to broach these conversations with like a mini script.

 

55:58

Yeah, and you know, it’s the, the book itself is full of different conversation starters, for different parts of your dating, sex, relationships, whatever. And they’re really designed to just be a jumping off point, you can read them word for word, you can figure out you can change some stuff to make it more relatable to your relationship or to what you want personally. But you know, those conversation starters that that’s what I needed in early sobriety. I had no idea how to communicate what I was going through, you know, like a, you would be surprised how impactful it can be, if you just tell you, maybe you’re about to have sober sex for the first time, you tell someone, hey, this is the first time I’ve done anything sexual without alcohol, I really need to take this slow. And just that sentence alone can be profoundly impactful. And I would say, it’s also a good filter. Because if that scares someone away, if they want something quick, that’s not your person. That’s not. You want someone who’s going to be patient with you. And I didn’t know how to stand up for myself like that, with like I was saying my sex before was largely performative. It was for other people.

 

So, when I learned how to center my own pleasure, that gave me the confidence to say, I need to take this slow. Then, once I learned how to take things slow, then I learned how to ask for certain things in the bedroom and open up conversation. What is there anything you would like me to do? In the bedroom, you know, that I? Again, we’re not mind reader’s, I don’t, everyone’s body is so different. And you have to communicate what feels good for you. What actually doesn’t feel good for you? Maybe you’re like, you know, like you said, you were having drunk sex with your husband for so long. Like, it’s possible you were doing positions that you don’t do anymore. Like you have to communicate like, oh, I don’t I can’t do that anymore. Because I don’t drink now, you know, like these? These are the things that can change.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  58:00

Yeah, I mean, there’s so much in this book that I love. I mean, you talk about queer dating and sex and a whole lot more. I want people to buy this book. I think it’s helpful. Whether you’re married, or single or dating or I mean, boundaries and conversations and Dating Yourself. It’s all really good. What haven’t we touched on that you kind of want to pull out? I know, we didn’t get to building a sex room.

 

58:32

Yeah, you have to buy the book for that. No, I mean, I would just remind everybody, like, you don’t have to hit rock bottom to change your relationship with alcohol, you can find that dating. Dating, when you drink might lead to you picking the wrong people, you can find that when you have a drink, it might lead to this other self-destructive behavior. Like you know, you don’t have to lose everything before you make a change in your life. And you don’t have to give up alcohol completely. You know, some people just want to give up alcohol in their dating life, and that and they might still drink with their girlfriends. You know, you really have to figure out what works best for you. And this book is designed to really to meet you where you are, and just give you give you some tools to keep in your back pocket and remind you that you’re not alone.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  59:28

Absolutely. So where can people find the book find you to learn more?

 

59:33

Yeah, you can find the book you know, wherever you get wherever you get books. I’m always a big advocate for supporting a local bookstore. And you can order online from a local bookstore, you could swing by a bookstore. My weekly advice column about this exact topic is called Beyond Liquid Courage. You can subscribe to that. It comes out every Wednesday because hump day and you can find me on social media @tawnymlara. I’m on all of it. And I’m tired.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:06

Oh my god, can I tell you I made a note of what I wanted to end on this because it resonated with me. So, here’s what you wrote at one point that I like highlighted.

 

You said,

the older I get, the less value I assigned to sex. Or maybe I just think about sex differently. I now value intimacy, communication and snuggling as much as if not more than sexual acts. Maybe it’s sobriety. Maybe I’m just tired. As a 47 year old mom of two, I was like, Maybe I’m just tired.

 

1:00:44

Yeah, that’s maybe, that’s my next book.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:48

Oh, my God, that would be the best. That would be true. I mean, it’s lit.

 

Yeah, I used to think that sex was the most important thing in a relationship. And as my therapist would frequently remind me, you know, why are you using sex as a barometer for a healthy relationship? There’s so much more. And again, this is all stuff that I had to unlearn. You know, growing up reading these magazines, like, if you don’t please your man three times a week, he’s going to bubble blah. And I’m just like, I internalized that.

 

Oh, yeah. And now, you know, that contributed to me being performative in the bedroom of like, trying to be this version that I thought I was supposed to be. And it was exhausting to, really, it was masking, you know, it really was putting on an act. And once you get honest with yourself, and you realize that your relationship with alcohol needs to change, then you get honest with yourself about other stuff. And then you also learn that there’s so much more to a relationship than sex, sex is just one, one part. And there is a whole chapter on sex versus intimacy that I think is, is super important. Intimacy, I would argue is even more important than prioritizing sex. You don’t have to have sex a certain amount of times every week. But I do think it’s very, very important that you have even a few minutes a day of just one on one time with your partner, just, you know, having coffee together in the morning, or going for a walk at night. Like you have to have those moments of connection.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:02:24

Yeah, and you know, what’s interesting? I think, and, and this may be an outdated term. So, you can tell me, it’s like the idea of understanding each other’s love language. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

 

Yeah, like what they really care about, but also what you really care about. So, for my husband, I think his love language is like, physical intimacy, and then like, acts of service, but like helping, like, I know, if he’s super grumpy, I can, like, we can have sex, or like, I can do a bunch of gardening with him, like the man will, yeah, that’s what he does all the time. But for me, it’s like, really important that like, we never leave the house without saying, I love you, when he comes in the door, we hug and kiss first thing, you know, like, that is, you know, we don’t get off the phone without saying love you. Like, for me, that’s my love language. And I’m like, if we didn’t do that, I’d be like, What the fuck, you know, like, but it’s different. And so, I think that, you know, when you’re talking about intimacy, and love, and sex. And sex, not just being, you know, traditional sex that everybody imagines from the movie, like that idea of how what do you value and understanding that for yourself, too?

 

1:03:47

Absolutely. And figuring out what you value, communicating that with your person, then they can communicate what they value, so you know how to show up for each other, like you said, gardening is really important to him. And that is a really strong way that you can show up for him. Like you, we need, we need to know these things about each other. Because like, yeah, sex is sex can be important, and it can be fun and all and all these things. But, you know, as you read in the book, there’s also I’ve interviewed several asexual people who just sobriety help them realize they actually don’t like sex, but they still want to be in relationships, they still want a companion. They just, they just don’t actually like having sex. So, you know, it’s, I think that you know, maybe that’s the perfect way to end it is like sexual liberation.

 

Can is really whatever you want it to be. It could be something as you know, extravagant as like going to sex parties. But it could also mean figuring out that you don’t like sex or that you don’t like certain positions where you don’t want to be touched in certain places. That’s also sexual liberation. And for me, I didn’t know how to access that type of freedom with without giving up alcohol.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:05:03

Perfect. Well, let’s leave it there. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for writing this book. I know it’s super valuable for so many people. And there’s not a lot of books out there on this topic. So, thank you.