SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, enneagram, drinking, healthy, life, world, type, energy, alcohol, showing, emotions, honor, question, sober, person, habits, transformational, talking, Laura, Coaching, Discovery Session, valuable recovering, understanding, lens, experience, alcohol free, women, coping mechanism, conversations, heart, real life, podcast, art of growth, psychometric tools, self-reporting, live, culture, speak for themselves, Myers-Briggs, journey, time, energy, random, connections, world, like-minded, heart, Masterclass, free zone, show up, why, focus, manifestation, type, dedication, motivation, healthy place, help people, empower, support, way someone acts, type casted, drives someone, present, learned, adaptations, grown, areas, fascinating, interesting, light bulb moment, earn, love, loving person, surrounded by love, combination, words, earning, value, gift, test, manipulate, answer, appear, narrative, tradition, non-judgmental, witness, your story, ask questions, interpretation, important, process, accurate, answer, listening, looking, body language, energy, core, drivers, showed up, superpower, being, more of yourself, sabotaging patterns, head, heart, body, Main Intelligence Centers, action, action oriented, do the right thing, moral, harmony, intensity, anger, tribes, body triad, heart triad, externally focused, self-referencing, love connection, emotions, sadness, shame, feeling, externally focused, color of life, serve, information, gathering, ideas, exceptional, expansion, headspace, expanding, creation, resources, logic, security, safety support, adventure, combining, energies, anxiety, integration, emotions, feelings, reality, interpret, understand, tell themselves, creates more emotions, solving, grounded, healthy 3, external validation, external reference, through emotions, approval, doing the right thing, internal validation, what matters to me, pendulum swings, wisdom, paradox, incredibly admirable, internal voice, external voice, viewpoints, mindsets, draining, constructive, proactive, uplifting, self-awareness, awareness, empathy, compassion, acceptance, change, acquiescence, allowance, acknowledgement, honest, sobriety, willpower, genuine, inner critic, less stress, less resistance, navigate the world, options, curiosity, relationship with yourself, social awareness, triggers, defensiveness, paranoia, resentment, change starts with you, boundaries, tolerating, tolerated, inevitably, toxic, tool, achieving the goal, vulnerability, weakness, authority, team builders, enhance, lift up each other, loyal skeptic, loyal in an organization, call out, flaws, more stable, safe place, develop healthier patters, home, family, marriage, life on intention, drinking, numbing, escape, quiet that noise, inner work, codependency, balance, make sense, need to soothe, develop healthy patterns, flow, consistently show up, simple, biggest things in life, matter the most, recovering, bubble, impacts, clarity, ability, perceive, constant mental space, battle of your life, grace, self-critical, abusive relationship, violence, affirmation, nodding, day one, Day 1, respectful, spoke to me, growth, reframe, underneath, self-pity, move forward, PTSD, A.A. meeting, community, toxic people, let go, family member, best in you, inspire, memory, vision, breathe, enlightenment, seek the sages

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Jim Zartman

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

 

Hi there. Today’s episode is about the Enneagram and Transformational Habits. My guest is Jim Zartman. Jim is a Certified Enneagram Coach and the co-founder of The Art of growth, which is a team of coaches and consultants who work with individuals and organizations to help them achieve the transformation they want in themselves, their work and their relationship.

 

I actually connected with Jim through a recommendation from one of my Coaching clients. And she heard Jim through Laura McKellen’s, The Luckiest Club, and then did an enneagram 1-on-1 discovery session with Jim that includes a typing interview, my client told me that her work with Jim, and the insight she gained through the enneagram work was so valuable to her in recovering in life, and understanding the lens, you experience the world through.

Jim has also done enneagram work with over 50 women who have quit drinking or are thinking about going alcohol free. So, he has insight about how to think about the enneagram through the lens of women who have relied on alcohol as a coping mechanism.

 

So, Jim, thank you so much for being here. Welcome.

 

02:45

Oh, thank you so much. It’s an honor. I love getting to have these kinds of conversations, because this is the heart of the real life.

 

02:53

Yeah, absolutely. And I also wanted to share that you have a podcast yourself about the enneagram. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

 

03:03

Yeah, so it’s called the The Art of Growth Podcast, which is the same name as our organization that does the training. And that’s kind of how we got our foot in the door. We started a podcast, specifically a panel because unlike a lot of the other psychometric tools that are out there, the enneagram is based on self-reporting. So, it’s not about putting people in a box, or like in a formula, but it’s people saying what it’s like to be them, what it’s like to live in their skin of these 9 types in the enneagram. And that’s what enneagram just mean. Ennea is Greek for 9 and then Gramma just type is kind. And we started these panels, and we have several of the same type. And then we’ve expanded into other topics and stuff like that, beyond that, but that’s how we got started. Since the enneagram is supposed to be based on self-reporting. And even though meme culture is taken over a little bit and been a bit reductionistic, we wanted to actually let people speak for themselves. And when we put out these podcasts, it actually became one of the most popular podcasts in that field. And it’s a growing field. It just passed Myers-Briggs last year as the most commonly used psychometric tool, not only for personal use, but for business as well.

 

And so, we sort of hit that wave right at the right moment. And it became, I call it an accidental success. Because we didn’t actually intend to do that. We didn’t know if anyone would listen to it. And all of a sudden, it blew up. And then we were being reached out to and that’s sort of been the journey to this becoming the primary focus of our time and our energy and work in the world.

 

04:44

Nice. I mean, that’s awesome. And I completely want to dive into sort of the basic question of what the enneagram is because, up until, gosh, I would say 2 years ago, I had never heard of it. Up until about four months ago, I didn’t know much about it, except actually my therapist mentioning it to me and sharing, you know what she thought my type was, which was fascinating. And turns out, I did a 1-on-1 discovery session and typing interview with you and the thought of what she had shared. And I adore my therapist about what type I was turned out not to be true and what we talked about felt way more accurate about me. But before we dive into that, I wanted to ask you how you got involved with Laura McKellen and this sober or alcohol-free community? Yeah.

 

05:44

So, as far as Laura goes, that’s also one of these kind of random connections in the world. We went to the same author event. And I stood up at this event. And I said, you know, it’s great to meet you person that we came to see. But I’m really curious to meet other people who would come to see you like other people who might have had a similar heart or like-minded experience. And so, I set up a Facebook page, and all these people joined it, who were in the room, like right away. And for whatever reason, there was a couple people that as soon as I saw them, I was like, I’m supposed to know them. And I didn’t know that they happen to live near me, both Laura and our other friend, Jim, who is Jim Track, who showed up and a lot of our Instagram posts with, you’ll see the three of us every now and then, well, pre COVID, when we were doing the book tour launches and stuff like that. But I literally just hit her up it on Instagram and said, Let’s have breakfast. And so, my wife and I went and had breakfast with her. And she goes, are we becoming friends now? I was like, I think that’s what’s happening. And we ended up. She’s one of my closest friends in Boston now that several years later, and we’ve just been able to bounce a lot of ideas off each other processes.

 

And so, she invited me to teach at The Luckiest Club, their Masterclass. To do a 6-week class on the enneagram with my partner, Joel. And so, we, we did that. And so, we ended up, you know, offering these Discovery Sessions. And I think, I don’t know how many Joel did. I think I did over 50, just myself, and then he did a ton as well. And so, I’m, you know, meeting with all of these people who are coming off of alcohol. And it’s just been amazing, because you, what you find is, in order to do this work, people have to be ready to make some kind of a major change in their life, they have to kind of get over the bullshit. And then it has to be that free zone where you’re no longer in denial of your life. And so many people aren’t ready for that. Many people are still in denial about their life, they think all their coping mechanisms are working for you. And if they are fine, you’re going to show up in sobriety, you’re going to show up the enneagram, you’re going to show up to all the tools you need when you need to do them. Some people aren’t ready to go see the therapist, even though they desperately need. But this is about when people are ready for this work. If there’s a statement that when the student is ready, the teacher appears.

 

And I think that’s true for the enneagram. For a lot of people that showed up when they needed it to. And it does, I think, provide a lot of the why. And even different parts of the enneagram people focus on the manifestation of the type. And we have a big dedication to focusing on the motivation of the type. Because someone will be like, will you love to help people you’re really focused on help people, you must be a 2. I’m like, well, that’s a 9 and a healthy place. That’s an 8 when they’re trying to empower that’s a 6 when they’re trying to get support, like, and so, that’s just a manifestation. It’s a way that someone acts, and people get type casted for that, but I want to know what drives someone.

 

So, what drives you? And we had our Discovery Session, I was like, Yes, all of these other things are present. You’ve learned a lot of these adaptations. You’ve grown in a lot of areas, but the thing driving you was the 3?

 

09:13

Yeah. Yeah. So, we just had our Discovery Session 2 days ago, or even a day and a half ago. And it was fascinating. And yes, turns out that I am a 3 and it was super interesting. I had thought after talking to my therapist a couple years ago that I was 6. And you know, when I took an online quiz, it told me other stuff. But when we had our discussion, it was like a light bulb moment. I was like, that is exactly it. And we’ll talk about it but one of the things you asked me, and I was blown away by this, you said what do you need to do to earn love, and I am an incredibly loving person. I am surrounded by love, but I immediately listed like 15 things that I do to earn love like, well, I give love out, and I’m a good person, and I help people and I express love physically and all these things. And you said, that is completely a 3 because 90% or whatever it is, maybe it’s not that of people. When you ask them, what do you need to do to earn love, say nothing, I don’t need to do anything to earn love. And that would never, ever, ever have occurred to me. And to this day, I told my husband, I was like, it’s not that you don’t love me, but it would never occur to me to say, I don’t need to do anything to earn love. Can you talk about that? Just really briefly, cuz that was my like, Oh, my God, people say nothing. How is that? But that blew my eye to this day, don’t believe it.

 

10:48

Yeah, and a lot of people don’t. And also, a lot of people don’t even think about earning love, the combination of the words earning next to the word love would never compete. First, some people think about earning value. And some people think about like, well, love is a gift. So, that is that unique combination that comes into play there. And just as a side, as you were saying, you know, I took this test and this thing here. Online tests are, they’re fine. They’re okay. They’re a data point. But I would never say, you know, you can take a test and know your type. And anyone can sort of manipulate a test, you can answer in a particular way you can bend it to the way you want to be appeared. But I come from something called the narrative tradition of the enneagram, which is my whole job in that interview when that is to stand as a non-judgmental witness of your story. And to ask you questions and see where you take the story. I often tell people in this thing, your interpretation of the question is as important as your answer, I want to see where people go. And I think that’s what’s so great about that process. Because A. you, it’s much more accurate. And B. you’re sharing your story as opposed to just answering yes or no, on like an online quiz. So, it’s, I think the enneagram more than any other system is the hardest to get accurate on an online test.

 

We designed one, there’s one on our website, www.theartofgrowth.org. It’s better than 95% of the tests that are out there. But it’s still can’t do what I can do. When I’m not just listening for your answer. But I’m listening, I’m looking at your body language. And I’m looking Do you have a lot to say about that? Or a little bit to say about that? Do you? What’s your energy behind as you talk about that subject? So, there’s all of these things, we are incredibly unique. You are your own unique expression of your type. And there’s no one like you.

 

But there are these core drivers that are in all of us, that we have to kind of look at, because they have showed up in our life as a superpower where they’ve given us every great, wonderful thing in our life. And they are amazing gifts. And they’ve shown up as a shadow, where it’s sabotage and gotten in the way of some of the best parts of you. I always tell people like a lot of these personality psychometric tools enneagram even they focus a little bit too much on the shadow. What do you need to stop being and we never want you to be less of yourself, you need to be more of yourself with less of your sabotaging patterns? The best of you is permanent. The worst of you is temporary. If you are on your journey, the best of you is permanent. The worst of you is temporary.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 14:02

If you’re listening to this episode and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit. The Sobriety Starter Kit is an online self study, sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step-by-step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one-on-one coaching. And The Sobriety Starter Kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it, when it fits into your schedule.  You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time. This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step-by-step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life. You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better, you’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course.

 

I love that. I love that. So, let’s dive in. Because we’ve sort of hit around a couple different things. But we haven’t sort of explained the nine types or how that would show up. And I know you want to talk about sort of also there, there’s not just the 9 different types, but they’re sort of the head types, the heart types and the body types. So, I’m just going to let you explain it to all of us.

 

15:36

Yeah, so there are 9 types in the enneagram. And you can break it out into the nuances of like, the 27, you know, subtypes that Beatrice Chestnut, who wrote, I think the best book on the enneagram is called The Complete Enneagram. And it’s your type next year subtype. And that’s a whole other discussion subtypes are different discussion which this thing is endlessly complicated. So, I can’t go into a lot of it. But I would love to hit the head, heart, body. There are 3 types in each of the Main Intelligence Centers, as we call them. So, there’s the body center, there is the heart center, and there is the head center.

 

So, the body types are action. First, they’re action oriented, like I am, what I do, I am defined by my action, the 8 having like the most intense, forthright energy, the 9 have been the most withdrawn of those energies, and the one the most like direct. So, the 1s tend to be like sort of the, I have to do the right thing – very moral, the 9 is about harmony and not rocking the boat and peace, and the 8 is very much about intensity. So, they are thought of as being in the anger triad, because the anger is an activating energy, it’s a body energy. The 8 expresses it, the 9 represses it, the 1 denies it, because it would be a moral problem. So, I won’t go into much detail with each of the tribes.

 

So, the body triad, then you have the heart triad, the 2, the 3, and the 4. And the 2, 3 and 4, they are much more externally focused. How do you see me? Whereas the body triad is a little more self-referencing, the heart triad is a little more, others referencing. I want to know, how do you see me and how do I gain love connection, they often deal with the emotions of sadness and shame, more than anger. And they are, they’re very good in people and in connection, emotion is their center their feelings, I am what I feel in the heart center. And emotions are like what I call the color of life, they are the thing that brings all the color to life. And some types have a harder time accessing their emotions. But the two of us focus on wanting to serve and help people, the 3 with its need to achieve and perform. And the four with its need to be connected by being unique, and expressive and artistic.

 

And then you have the head triad, the 5, 6 and 7. That head triad tends to do a little bit more with anxiety, their heads tend to do a lot of information, a lot of information gathering, spinning ideas. They are exceptional in the world of expansion. And that’s what the headspace is for, right? Expanding into new ideas and creation. And that can take on different forms. The 5 is very much about logic and information and resources Do I have enough the 6 is a lot more about security, safety support, the need for safety, the need for support, so they make things safer in our world. And the 7 is all about adventure and expanding into new ideas and combining energies and ideas.

 

But the head triad is I am what I think so you have the buy to try it. I am what I do. The heart triad, I am what I feel and the head triad, I am what I think. And these can come with that anger, with that sadness or shame or with that anxiety.

 

And so much of our work is actually about the integration of the centers. So, a lot of heart types. For instance, like a 4, they might do this thing we call the head heart loop where they have an emotion and their feelings first. Their feelings lead. And for a lot of them emotions are reality and then they bounce into their headspace to interpret that and try and understand that reality. And they tell themselves sort of a story about those emotions, which creates more emotions. And it causes this head heart loop or it’s emotions and figuring out the emotion solving, creating stories around it. And they kind of come online to a greater place of health when they include the body center. And when they can get into the body and get grounded, and their heart is alive, and their mind is able to process but they are grounded in their body. And there is this integration of the three centers that happens. And that is one of the biggest steps towards health for people. That was a lot. Wow!

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 20:27

It was a lot. But it was super interesting. And one of the things that I also took away from our discussion was you said, okay, you’re 3, but a healthy 3, you know, which is focused on sort of external validation. You know, you can describe it better than me, but sort of external reference through emotions and approval and doing the right thing.

 

But healthy 3 uses that internal validation.

 

Yes, as well, which is definitely where I felt that I’ve grown into, since I stopped drinking, you know, did all the work that you have to do to not drink and start trusting myself more and did Coaching and therapy work and everything else. Could you make that… make more sense about threes? Because you know, I butchered it?

 

21:22

Well, no, you did a great job, I think with it. This is something that a lot of the heart triad, they’re outwardly focused, they want to know, how do you see me question? And a lot of times, once they realize that they’ve been in that for too long, they’re like, well, I don’t want to be that matters, what I think and what I want to do and what matters to me. And I have to ask these questions. And its kind of the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other. And wisdom is not found in the binary. But in the paradox, the external validation that you seek is not a bad thing. It’s only a bad thing, when it is an over exaggeration, instead of an integration, you want to integrate your internal voice, you want to include the voice of the internal and not be dominated by the voice of the external. And instead of swinging from one extreme to the other, you learn to include the voice that has been a little bit softer spoken. And you bring those voices forward, that wisdom is deeply within you. But it takes some time to tune into that. And the enneagram is like a tool to get there. And I think to get there quickly.

 

But even as you said, like you recognized when I described it that, that is the work you had done. And I think that is incredibly admirable, so people should like come to you and learn about this, and work with you around that. But that is the process for the three is not just the external validation, but the internal as well. Because for people who are highly self-reference, like myself, I don’t often consider what anyone else thinks. This is why I put out other podcasts that no one listened to before. And we put this one out, and it became popular. And I’m like, I don’t even know how that happened. Because I was focused on like, what is the right thing for me to do? And so that was a good question. But now I’ve learned to include the external voice more.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 23:22

And that blows my mind again, just like the question of like, what do you do to earn love, like not really been focused on what other people think? or external points and viewpoints? I’m like, there are people who did that.

 

23:37

I never Yeah. And that’s the thing is what you start to realize is you have a lens, and other people don’t see the world that way. Like if someone asked me the question, what do you do to earn love? I’d be like, what are you talking about? Like, the question doesn’t even make sense to me. If someone would have asked that. Like, now I understand that, you know, the heart of the question, but didn’t never would have registered to me. Yeah, cuz I don’t, I don’t think that way.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 24:00

And that’s amazing too, because I do Core Energy Coaching, which is sort of the, through the coaching school that I went through and what I’m certified in and it’s very similar in terms of you take an online assessment, and then we do a 90 minute debrief and so it’ll say this is your dominant energy which I think of as the lens through which you view the world how you emotionally and, and mentally intellectually react to situations and, and part of the work is not only saying this is who you are, because most people have three or four dominant levels of energy that they move through and every hour, every minute, every emotion that you have, and some are draining, some are constructive and proactive and uplifting. But a lot of times you don’t even realize that there are other ways to react to view the world other lenses and mindsets. And it is bringing awareness to that and realizing that you have a choice, right? It’s the difference between saying, I’m an anxious person, and I’m experiencing anxiety. And of course, you are in this situation, but it’s not who you are.

 

25:11

Yes, it’s not who you are. And we over identify with our type, we over identify with our lens, we over identify with our perspective. And this is what creates, you know, we talked about working with individuals, you know, dealing with themselves and their inner work, which is some of what we’ve been talking about. This is also this moving from self-awareness to social awareness, including, you know, how the lenses through which we all, you know, see each other, and we experience the world in radically different ways. And, you know, once you wake up to that, you start to have more empathy and compassion for the story of the other. And I think that’s what so much of this is about is, it’s compassion and empathy for yourself, and your own story, but also for that of the other.

 

You know, when I talk about, you know, transformational habits, one of the biggest transformational habits we talked about is, is acceptance, that acceptance precedes change. You have to accept yourself before you can kind of go through a change. And acceptance is not in the cheap sense of everything is fine. It’s not acquiescence. It’s not allowances, that I should just be this way. And this is just the way I am and there’s nothing I can do about it. That is not acceptance. That is acquiescence.

 

Acceptance precedes change. Acceptance is an acknowledgment of what is being honest about where we are, but it also includes that we can change, but it’s just that the path to change is a path of grace, there is no other way to do it. Because acceptance takes you out of the world of trying to force change, which a lot of people do, I just have to will and Buck up and make myself change, right. A lot of people who have gone through sobriety know that solution did not work.

 

Laura talks about that in her book, it’s kind of like, there’s so many times you can do that. But willpower alone and force will not get you there. Neither does repression. That’s another strategy. People are like, I have to repress myself, I have to just shove different parts of myself down, but you’re holding a balloon underwater, it’s not gonna work. You cannot repress yourself into genuine transformation, you cannot force yourself into genuine transformation, there has to be acceptance, the real kind acknowledgement of what is. So there can be a path of grace towards integration, which, like I said before, is not to be less of yourself, but to include these other energies as you put it, because when you include the other energies, you become an integrated person, instead of an exaggeration of one solution in life.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 27:59

Mm hmm. I love that. And I also think that, you know, that self-compassion work, that understanding work, that realization of there is a reason why you have reacted this way your whole life is so valuable in order to make some changes, do some work to navigate the world with less judgment for yourself, which that inner critic voices is driving so much of us, but also to gain the tools to navigate the world with less stress and less resistance.

 

28:34

Yes, because it gives you more options. Because so much of what your view of the world your type your lens your energy does. If anyone was watching the zoom, I do this thing on, when I’m explaining this over zoom, where I say, you know, your energy is like it can take over and I just shoved my hand forward and I cover the camera on the screen. And all you can see is like a few lines of my palm. And I say well, this is what your type does. It just tries to take over and say this is all a reality as it narrows your scope. And doing that work. It allows you to pull out and I think the centerpiece, I deeply believe that the centerpiece of all relationship is curiosity. Hmm. Your relationship to yourself is curiosity. When you can take that non-judgmental observer voice and you can look at your own story. You can become a student of your own story with genuine curiosity, then you can start to have that compassion. And you can actually start to make the change, like and I think this is applies to all relationships.

 

You think about the beginning of relationship where two people are first falling in love. And they stay up at night. And they want to talk and they’re asking each other all of these questions and it’s just like talking, talking, talking. Why? Because there’s so much curiosity about this other person, right? A curiosity we often don’t have for ourselves, or the person we disagree with over there that we’ve relegated over there, and you’re just over there. And then what happens to couples 10 years in, they’re like, Well, you know, I kind of know them, I don’t, I know what they’re gonna say, I know what they’re gonna do.

 

When my wife and I, we do couples coaching with the enneagram. And when we’re sitting down with a couple weeks, one of the first things we say is, we have good news for you, you will never understand each other. Because when you’ve lost curiosity, so if I walk into a conversation with my wife, and I say, I know exactly how she’s gonna respond, I know everything, she’s gonna say, I’ve eliminated her presence. She’s not there. Curiosity allows the mechanism to keep emotion connection to stay in motion. And if you are continually curious about your own story and your own reactivity, and you study it with compassion, if you stay curious about the other, and you move from that self, just self-awareness into social awareness. That is as the centerpiece of relationship keeping that curiosity in motion, there isn’t much you can’t move through, we get stuck when we think something is fixed. And so often, when you’re working with someone, I’m sure you’ve seen this, and tell me about how you if you’ve seen this, one of the things that gets people stuck is they perceive their current reality to be their permanent reality.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 31:41

Yes, absolutely. And one of the things I, you know, try to work on with people is the idea of when you change when one person in a relationship changes, the entire relationship changes, right. And that’s the idea about being curious about another person, but also being curious about yourself, because when you understand more, and especially when you remove drinking, everything changes, you don’t realize the degree to which drinking and the drinking cycle is coloring, your mind your judgement of yourself, your defensiveness towards others, the way in which you react in the world and adds kind of paranoia and resentment and everything else. So when people come and they say, my husband, my relationship, my kids, my boss, all these things are triggers for me, and they are, but the first step is to remove the alcohol and to give compassion and understanding and do the work on yourself. because inevitably, things will change. And almost always for the better. I mean, regardless of whether you stay in the same job or something happens with your marriage, there is no way you quitting drinking are going to make things worse. I truly believe that.

 

33:00

Well, I love what you just said too, because you just said, this trigger, and I have this trigger over here. And you’re like, and they are

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  33:08

know for sure they are not and they are but you cannot fix you cannot solve your problem by changing the external world around you. It starts with you. And I love that because it’s like, yes, you have to acknowledge that all these things are triggers for you.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  33:26

Well, and everything might not be right, you may need to drive it or boundaries or make changes. And inevitably people do, right? You’ve been tolerating shit that you should not be tolerated, inevitably,

 

33:38

totally, there may need to be some cuts, for sure. There may be some cuts that are just unhealthy. But sometimes when you get healthier, those things naturally fall away. You know, the flies don’t come around, if there isn’t doodoo on the ground, like you clean up, and it doesn’t bring so much of that stuff around. So, I just I liked how you put it because you’re like, Yeah, all of these things may be triggers. But you start with you. You clean up some of that stuff doesn’t come around. You clean up you’re gonna know what you actually need to cut. But you might be someone’s toxic person. Yeah, he someone’s difficult person. And if you’re doing your work, all these other things kind of naturally fall a little bit more into place. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 34:25

I So one question I had, but I really, you know, want to get into the transformational habits. That’s what we’re talking about. But when we already done a couple of them,

 

34:34

I No, no, no, I want you to sort of outline them and, and give the, you know, the tool to take away the things that people listening to this can apply in their lives or at least consider and wrap their head around and get curious about but you said something right. You may be someone’s toxic person they may be yours. Are there certain types that are like oil and water like are never going to understand each other or require more work?

 

34:59

Yeah, there’s definitely ones that were require more work. I always have this question for couples. They’re like, well, I’m a three kind of what number should I date?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 35:09

And that’s like a cosmopolitan quiz, by the way.

 

I know, right? And I’m like, there is absolutely no answer to that. There, there are combinations that require a little bit more work, because they don’t understand each other quite as well. But it’s not about type. It’s about health level. So, whenever people kind of, like, look at those kinds of divisions, they don’t really make sense to me, because I’m like, I have really healthy, incredible relationships with people of every type. I think there’s certain ones that would definitely be harder for me to be in a close, intimate marriage type of relationship with. But, um, no, I think we actually need to have every kind of energy in our life because we have something, we deeply need to learn from them.

 

So as like, for instance, I’m an 8, I have a 7 wing, I’m so, I’m very much action oriented, I’m very much in my body, I love that space, my head is always going a million miles an hour. But what my type says is that emotions can get in the way of achieving the goal. And vulnerability means weakness. And if you’re vulnerable, you’re going to get trounced. So, I need people around me that are in the heart space that show me it’s safe, who makes space for me in the heart space. I have learned through them, that it’s actually my vulnerability that gives me authority, because the 8 can is concerned about not being controlled. And so, having power of self, and vulnerability feels like you’re giving up some of that power. But what I have learned is I will trade authority for power any day, authority is so much more important. The government had the power in 1968, MLK had the authority. That’s what actually provides the change. And so, to lean into that space, I need to have those heart types around me. And my friends who are deeply heart types and who can get stuck in that head heart loop. They come around me, not when they want. A lot of I’m not someone you vent to, let’s just but when they want to get back into action when they want someone to motivate them to take their next step. They come to me

 

Mm hmm. These are why we actually need each other and we need to integrate the other energies.

 

37:50

Yeah. And you said, you know, in a healthy space, and I noticed that when I was reading about the enneagram the first time it was like an unhealthy. 6, a healthy 6. So, can your number 6, like, how do you? What’s the difference between those two? healthy sex and unhealthy sex?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  38:10

Oh no, just the concept of any number healthy versus unhealthy or moving to healthy?

 

38:17

Yeah, I’ll well, I need an example. So, I’ll use six readings. Okay. Because the health and unhealth looks radically different from type two type. You know, for instance, some become outwardly destructive and others become inwardly destructive. An unhealthy 6 is constantly spinning in the headspace, it’s just spins. It’s worries, it’s constantly forecasting and worst-case scenario planning. And it’s looking for danger under every rock and around every corner. And it, sort of, has that neurotic, pulsing endless amounts of words to try and dissect what is safe and get to feeling safety and supported a 6 who is healthy, who knows that they are deeply okay? Are some of the best team builders, they are some of the best partners, they want to enhance, and lift up each other. They’re often called the loyal skeptic. So, they can be loyal in an organization and still call out the flaws. And they want to move things towards a more stable and safer place and they’re really good at that. So, it is radically different to be around a healthy sex than one that is in sort of in that more chaotic space. And every single type has a really unique distinct version of healthy versus unhealthy.

 

39:45

And do people move between like when something stressful happens? They move to unhealthy and then they can sort of come back to healthy depending on the situation or the surroundings.

 

39:56

Um, I think there’s certain areas that is easier to be healthy than others. So, it starts with you. Um, I’ve noticed that for a lot of people, when they’re starting to develop healthier patterns, it’s easier for them to practice at work than at home. Family is the final frontier, you know, as Rhonda says, you know, if you think you’re enlightened to go home for the holidays.

 

40:17

Oh my God, that’s true.

 

40:18

Those long-established patterns are sometimes the health the hardest place to access the healthy patterns. But a healthy person is one who can be consistent regardless of context and environment. So, they can be in almost any environment in any situation. And they are going to recognize their energy of their type coming forward. And what it wants to do. That’s sort of like advanced transformational habits, something we it takes a few months of coaching us to get to, where you can see your energy come up in real time, notice it, and make a different decision about the way you’re going to go. But those are things that takes a lot of wisdom and can take some years to develop. But healthy is just what I call healthy is not a categorical thing. But it’s a movement. And it’s a movement from life in default, versus a life of intention. Most people are on default mode, they have an experience, they have a reaction. It’s action reaction, it’s stimulus and response. And what this work does is it teaches you to put a space between stimulus and response, so that you can have the freedom to actually make a choice, instead of automatically reacting. Because, you know, a lot of people, they may be a type two, for instance, but they’re not a type 2, 24/7, they’re a type 2, when that energy is pulled out, when some stress comes up. That’s when your type comes for it. And then you actually see whether someone’s healthy or not. Yeah, someone get a lot of people I’ve seen or just been like, I’ve done so much work, and I’m in such a healthier place. The second they get stressed, it’s like, boom, right back down.

 

42:09

Oh, yeah, that’s not a healthy person, that’s a person who’s fine when everything else is fine. But when your metal is tested, that’s when it matters. It matters when you’re frustrated, and someone walks in the door, and they challenge you at 10 o’clock at night, when you’re tired and frustrated and been working all day. That’s when you actually see who you are.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 42:32

Yeah, and I’m curious, I know, you know, I think of this, often through the context of drinking this show is typically for women who you know, possibly drink too much, they want to drink less and, and feel better and live more. But when it you know, does drinking or numbing or you know, wanting to escape into alcohol, does that show up differently, or the motivations are differently depending on what type you are deemed to. And it doesn’t just have to be alcohol. I mean, it’s anything that sort of takes you away or, you know, is the desire in some to suppress and the desire and others to connect and the desire and other ones to get out of your head and suppress anxiety.

 

43:17

Totally Yes. So in talking to a lot of head types, they drink to quiet the noise, the spinning noise of their mind, that seems to always be going always be saying this, this, this, this this next “safe”.  Safe data, whatever it is, it’s the spin of the head, and the alcohol helps to quiet that noise. And I think it’s important that they do some kind of inner work like this, because some of them it’s spin, spin. I quit drinking, because that’s destructive. And any of us who’ve worked in this arena of seeing people grow and change long enough, know that a lot of people give up one addiction for the next. And a lot of times it’s a much healthier addiction. Like I used to drink all the time. And now I do CrossFit. That’s great. But is anything that rules your life isn’t a great thing, you everything should be more integrated, like I keep coming back to that word. There’s an idea of integration and balance.

 

A lot of people, you know, hard times, for instance, I’ve talked to several of them, they stopped drinking. And what they realized is the entire time the real addiction had been relationships, like codependency or love addiction or something, something along those lines, but they were always needing to, or some of them. What was amazing to me is they never really wanted to drink but they merged with the other the partner who wanted to drink and their life just becomes about what this person wants. And it’s actually the relationship that’s causing the drinking, not even so much the drinking that’s causing the drinking, we all pull in our coping mechanisms for all different kinds of reasons. And they make sense. There’s a need to soothe. There is a need to not be caught in some of these worlds. But we develop healthy patterns, so that these things don’t just take over our lives. I think that’s the thing that we have to just kind of keep coming back to. Because otherwise, we’re just going to get stuck in another thing.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  45:39

And what about the body types? You talked about head and heart?

 

45:43

Yeah, so sometimes the body types, it’s very different. So, some of them, it’s to sort of quiet the drive. When they’re told there’s too much energy, it was a couple of nines who have this tendency to merge for harmony. I was working with one that was, so it was so hard to get sober, because their partner was an alcoholic, and had no interest in getting sober. And they just merge with them to keep the peace. And so, if they, they never drank on their own. Anytime the other person was there, they drank. And anytime anyone else around them as drinking, they drank, so they’re just going along with the flow, and not actually asking the question, what do I actually want, because something that’s typical for type nines is, they can see from every perspective except their own. So, it’s in withdrawing that they can even see themselves in their own perspective. And when it comes to being around, even something, that’s if they’re around healthy people, they function pretty healthy. And when they’re around people who are, you know, drinking, for instance, they’re most likely tend to merge with that, because it takes so much energy to say, I’m going to stand on my own over here.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 47:00

And that’s the body type, not the heart type.

 

47:03

That’s the nine, the nine tends to do this merging they, my wife is a nine and she says, you’re a thermostat, you change the temperature, I’m a thermometer, I just read the temperature, how

interest so it’s all about reading the temperature in the room and not wanting to disrupt it. And so, it takes a lot of work for a nine to do the thing they hate the most, which is to disrupt because disruption could cause a lack of connection.

 

47:31

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. All right, transformational habits, we’ve talked about a couple there, take me through the big ones.

 

47:40

Um, so when it comes to transformational habits, some of them are specific to type. And this is something that comes up in, in coaching a lot is what are the unique and special transformational habits and an individual might need based on where they are, what their issues are, what their type is. But there are certain ones that I think matter across the board, I will say that the number one transformational habit of my entire life is very simple. It’s two words, show up. If you can just consistently show up, you’re going to get there, you’re going to get to where you need to go.

 

I was you know, always playing music and stuff as I grew up, and there was a lot of people around who are a lot more talented than me. But I would show up. And I always showed up every single day, to my whatever was practice, whatever it was. And so, I ended up doing a lot more in the field than a lot of people who are more talented than me. If you can consistently show up in any area of your life, then you’re going to get there like show up to your sobriety every single day, and you’re gonna get sober. Like, it seems so simple, but it’s the biggest things in life. The things that matter the most, they’re easy to understand and difficult to do. It’s not like having a better understanding of something really changes anything.

 

You know that if you want to get sober, you show up, you know if you want to be you know, when I turned 40, I decided this person who has never done any kind of like, cardio endurance sport ever in my life, very unathletic. Anything with a ball throwing, catching like I’ve just I’ve always just terrible at sports. But I was like, I need to do something. And so, I’m gonna do a triathlon I decided when I turned 40 but all it just met with showing up like I’m never going to be that fast, but I can show up and run every day. I’m never going to be like, like, just cutting through the water like all these people around me, but I can swim, you know. Just show up. And I think one of the biggest things that people underestimate, just fucking show up.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 50:06

So is it because I’m, I’m having this thought that when I was drinking and women who I know, are drinking or recovering, like There tends to just be this bubble around you either because you’re a little checked out, obviously it impacts your mind and your clarity and your ability to perceive. But also, when you’re sort of recovering from drinking, or when you’re in this constant mental space of dammit, I drink too much. I’m never going to drink again. I’m going to take a break What the fuck is wrong with me? Okay, I’m going to drink. Like that prevents you from showing up, doesn’t it? You’ve always got this constant running loop or this sort of film around you that separates you, you know, cognitively and sometimes physically from whatever you’re doing, whether it’s work or being with your kids or being with your spouse, or, you know, being at a dinner party in interpreting the conversation.

 

50:57

Yeah, but I think a lot of times people tell themselves the story of like, well, I’m just in a loop, because I gave up drinking, and I came back in and I gave it up, and I came back in. And they This is again, like the whole permanent reality. current reality is permanent reality. Right? So, what is it like seven times it takes on average for a woman to leave an abusive man?

 

51:18

I didn’t know that. I’ll take you on that.

 

51:20

Yeah, it’s on average is about 7 times that they leave and come back before they finally leave for good. So many of these things we have to like, we have to kind of honor our process. And sometimes people aren’t ready yet. And they criticize themselves for not being ready yet. But like, when I mean, show up is like, Okay, if today is day one, today is day one, show up for today, like keep trying. Don’t just

 

51:50

yeah, you just show up again. And if you fail a million times, you just keep showing up. And if this is the Battle of your life, this is the Battle of your life. And like, I don’t know, I’m always frustrated, because I want people to get there faster. Yeah, right. That’s my drive. I want people to get there faster. I want them to get it. I want them to make the changes, because I know how much happier they’ll be. And if they just listen to me, they’d be so much happier, right? There’s so many. I think Coaches feel that that feeling of like, you’d be just so much happier. Just listen, just do this. You’ll get it and we have to honor the journey of the other. And if you woke up drunk this morning, and you’re listening to this, and you’re pissed about the night before. Okay, Grace, show up to yourself. This is the transformational habit. Acceptance precedes change. Honor your journey today. Give yourself grace today. Be genuinely curious about what did you need that for last night? Was there a lesson in that to teach you? Was there something that that would help you awaken to? Because if you were in that place, ask yourself genuinely, why did I need that? Instead of criticizing yourself. I can’t believe I did it again. I’m awful. I cringe shame, anxiety, fear.

 

Ask yourself like, what did I need last night? Why did I need this lesson? Yeah, why did I need to experience that. And, again, curiosity is the centerpiece of relationship to self and others. And we were recently on a group coaching call and this woman who had once again, taken too long to get out of an abusive relationship. And she just laid it all out there the abuse that she’d experienced the violence that she went through her violence and responding to it. And all of the other people on the call were like, giving her affirmation and nodding, and like just saying, like, you’re doing it. You showed up today. You’re amazing. She was being really self-critical, but they were all affirming her right. And then I asked everyone, I said, Okay, now can you all give yourselves the same level of affirmation as you just gave her? Wow. And the nodding heads froze, they stopped moving. And everyone’s like, eyes are shifting around for a second, and I’m just sitting there silently. And then everyone went, ah, I get it. Because if I was talking to you, and you were sober for the last year, and then you woke up drunk this morning. I wouldn’t criticize you. And I think a lot of the people who have your best at heart they wouldn’t be criticizing you. They would say, welcome to day one. Show up today. Have grace for yourself today. Ask yourself why you needed that. Ask yourself the questions that would be as respectful as you can frickin’ be to yourself. Honor your own journey. Honor your own need and honor today.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 54:51

Yeah. And it’s that idea. I wanted to mention Laura’s book in case no one… In case people don’t know about it, which I’m sure lots of people do. But because, you know, it came out this year in January or February, and it’s phenomenal. It’s called We’re the Luckiest, the surprising magic of a sober life by Laura McCowan. And the reason I wanted dimension is when you talk about showing up and honoring yourself for being on day one. And for you know, some people say keep coming back, or it takes, you know, it takes what it takes. But in the beginning of the book, and I know they talk about this in the luckiest club, it starts with, you know, it’s not your fault, it is your responsibility. It’s unfair, that this is your thing, this is your thing is your thing, this will never stop being your thing until you face it. And that when you’re saying showing up, that spoke to me, I had to actually grab the book off my bookshelf to read it again, because I didn’t want to misquote it. But yes, keep showing up. This is your thing until you deal with it. And the only way to deal with it is to not give up and to keep honoring yourself for keeping trying.

 

56:10

Yes, in every area of your life. And I can’t I don’t I must be hundreds of discussions that I’ve had with Laura, around these kinds of things right now. Because, you know, we’re always kind of talking about this kind of thing. Because, like, why did there was something that happened? I don’t remember what it is. And I guess I wouldn’t share it if I did. But I asked her about why you needed this right now. Like something, you know, bad and hard just happened where someone had treated her in a way that was not honoring and I was like, what do you need in this right now? Like, why is this happening for you right now? And we asked that question to each other a lot when each other is in a weird spot, like why? Why do you need this right now it for this step in your growth? And if you reframe everything like that, I don’t think it’s like an overly positive spin. But it’s an honoring of what is because, once again, what I said at the beginning, the other the other options are force, shame, repression, and they don’t work. But honoring today. One of the most important things like showing up today, like this is your thing. Today, whatever that thing is, it may have even been, there’s the consistent thing, which is ongoing thing, which she’s referring to there with drinking. But there are other things that you discover.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 57:44

Find the thing underneath, there’s always stuff underneath, like you, you went to this coping mechanism for a reason. It is something that you are attempting to cope with whatever it is, and one of my favorite questions about shifting people, you talked about reframing but shifting it from sort of the space of powerlessness and sometimes self-pity and, and not in being draining and not being able to move forward. I love the question. Instead of asking yourself, why is this happening to me? Ask yourself, how is this happening for me? Because even difficult things? It’s not. It’s not saying what’s happening isn’t shitty. But you are not powerless. You are never powerless in it. And you have agency, and everything is happening for you, even if it’s making you stronger, or giving you additional resolve or spring change that needs to happen.

 

58:41

Yeah, a friend of mine is a psychologist, his field of study is he was studying PTSD. And he wanted to know why some people had post-traumatic stress. And some people had post traumatic growth. And he was fascinated by this, this field of study in post-traumatic growth, because he’s like, what is it about people that actually are able to accomplish something they never would have been able to? Had they not experienced all of this trauma? What gift has come to the world because of what they have been through hell, and they’ve come out the other side. At this point in my life. I don’t trust anyone that isn’t colossally eff up in some way. I don’t trust them. Like none of us have that story. It’s what is our unique brand of F dub? And how can we actually use that as manure fertilizer for good for to come forward?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 59:46

Oh my god that cracked me up because I remember when I was starting coaching, going to school starting coaching business, and my husband like really tentatively was like, I don’t know how to ask you This in a way that won’t offend you. But like, he was truly like, Fuck, you know, and when you were saying it, I don’t trust anyone who isn’t fucked up. Like, he said, can you be a coach? If you, you know, had all this shit happened and had anxiety and are on anti-anxiety meds and you know, kind of have a lot of shit going on that you’re still working through and I was like, I was so like, absolutely. I wouldn’t trust anyone to help me through drinking and stopping drinking and dealing with the shit who hasn’t been through it like they just don’t? Yeah. Like, Oh, good to know. Apparently, that’s not, you know, like he was just like, you know, where they’re like, can you do this? Like Who are you to help people or talk to people? That was the one thing when you say I don’t trust anyone who’s not fucked up. I had no hesitation to be like, Oh, fuck yeah!

 

1:01:00

I yeah, I mean, cuz that’s like, this is the takes us back to the beginning. We’re talking about why I like working with people in the sober world is because they’ve lost the illusion. They’re no longer living under the illusion of life. They’ve had to face reality. Another friend said he went to an A.A. meeting the first time he goes, and he was not someone who ever had an issue with alcohol, he just walked in and went, this is a bullshit. free zone Oh, my God. That is exactly what all of this supposed to be. That is what we all need. And we talked about transformational habits. I say one of the most important transformational habits is community.

 

1:01:41

There’s got curiosity, we’ve got showing up and community.

 

1:01:46

Yes, there’s I have like 10, we’re not going to get through, like a but community is there is sanity in community. If you have healthy people around you. Who can help guide your life who can ask you good questions, who are compassionate observers of your story? If you include those voices in your life, you’re going to treat yourself better, you’re going to respond to things that come up better, and, and you will attract more of that to yourself. One of the people I was coaching, and I almost didn’t say this because it was so hard. But he had just come through a really hard relational thing where she did not cheat them all broke, broke away, and kind of they had had a new kid and she sort of walked out of the picture. And then he’s like, I’m, you know, now in this situation, what do I do? And we were talking about how we tend to accept and attract the community, the love that we think we deserve. That when you look at people’s friends, you can tell a lot about what they think of themselves. When a person is one friend who would introduce me to a new gentleman lover, and I would be like, Oh, this person is so far beneath her what what’s going on? I’m like, Oh, she doesn’t see herself yet. Hmm, the next person, I’m a little better, but this is not you. And then now she’s with someone or I’m just like, yes, you finally get it, you are finally drawing towards yourself, the kind of person that you are, and which means I can tell that you’re actually honoring yourself more. And this is a hard shift for a lot of people to make to actually move away from relationships that are not healthy and move more and more towards ones that are on when we were doing the training on transformational habits for Laura’s class. We don’t normally talk about kind of moving away from relationships, because there’s sort of this thing in our culture now, which is like, I just got to cut all the toxic people out of my life. And I’m like, well, in some of these situations, like maybe it’s you, like I said, You clean you up, the rest of the street gets cleaned up to um, but there are sometimes relationships you have to let go of.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 1:04:17

Yeah. More people who aren’t healthy, right? People who are toxic. I mean, one of my favorite things, you know, and that’s hard. If it’s a family member, if it’s someone you’re in a relationship with, I mean, I think someone who has a family member is actually the hardest. But, but you do become like I mean, I it’s the same but I believe it like the five people you spend the most time with and when you see or surround yourself with people who lift you up who love you who bring out the best in you because they see the best in you who inspire you. For more. That is incredible. So, there is a need, you know, you don’t need to walk away from everyone in your life who is dragging you down. But if they are not healthy, if they’re not doing the work if they’re trapped in their own negative thought patterns, boundaries are so helpful, because you don’t need to let them sort of pierce your heart or drag you down with their, you know, being toxic people or being undermining or trying to bring you down to their level or cut you down. And I mean, I think that’s a real point of growth, do the work yourself. But when you believe you deserve better, you will, you will naturally spend more time with people who honor that and less time with people who try to drag you lower.

 

1:05:47

Yeah, and when you honor yourself, you stop enabling the misbehavior of others and the low side of others. Yeah. And I think a lot of times there is this this culture of walking away from toxic relationships. And I, I sort of thought about it that way for a while. But the way I am sharing it with that group is I shared something that I wrote about this, which is more along the lines of bless them and go on. And it’s like this, it says, when the way becomes more memory than vision. And the story that led you here cannot show you how to go on. When you reach the wilderness where no maps have been drawn, and terror and excitement flow through you like Twin Rivers, may you respond with courage to the pole to go on. When those on either side of you are frozen and look longingly toward the familiar at their backs. The most natural sense on the surface of your skin, when you stand on the edge of the unfamiliar is the longing for what is known, even if it was never enough. We cannot blame or shame them for many who have traveled far enough. And in truth, they carried you to where they themselves could not go in kindness, turn and thank them, bless them with all your love. Bless them again and go on.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 1:07:26

I think that is the perfect place to end this. I love that. Is there anything you want to leave us with in addition to that, because that was beautiful?

 

1:07:38

I think if I left anyone with one transformational habit to consider, it would be to breathe. I often say that I am two deep breaths away from sanity, at any given point in time, kind of whatever is facing you, whatever is in front of you right now. It is you are two deep breaths away from sanity. And if you pause and take those breaths, then you can make a different decision, you can make a choice where you may have been on default before. And actually, if I and if I left you with anything, I would, as far as I would want you to know and reinforce this message that you have to honor your journey. As I put it this way, I’ll read one more thing as I leave you. And that is this idea that people want to come to this healthier space, this sort of more enlightened field. But to that, I want to leave you with this.

 

Enlightenment is beautiful but shouldn’t be reserved for meditating monks on mountain tops. It shouldn’t only be for those who have already left Earth to join God in the clouds away from the wondrous mundane. If the sacred isn’t stationed in simple tasks, and the divine not discovered in the daily moments, that of nursing mothers and tired teachers, of researchers, writers and plumbers, if it can’t be found in the teaching of a child, or the feeding of a friend in the world of dishes, and sneezes of trash and traffic, then I am not interested. I am only interested in a dirty enlightenment.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 1:09:22

All right, well, how can people get in touch with you I am positive that people are going to come away from this interview and be super interested in knowing what their type is and healthy habits and Coaching with you and all that.

 

1:09:39

Yeah, so the best way to reach out to us is that the www.theartofgrowth.org. If you’re just curious to take an online test, like I said, you can take ours there. You can also reach out to me to set up a discovery session and see what your type is like or what type is yours, I should say. And that would include a typing interview. you an overview of your type where it shows up in your story. And so, some coaching next steps. And then that experience is often where people actually decide if they want to continue to work with us. But you can reach out to me, [email protected] email. And I, I try to get back to everyone as quickly as I can. So, it’s an honor to be here. Thank you so much, Casey for having me on. It’s been great to get to know you a little bit. And hopefully, people will continue to lean into working with you around this stuff, too, because it is so helpful. I mean, one of the, one of the most transformational things you can do is, I say that seek the sages, seek the sages around you seek people who have walked the path and join them because most of us try to do things alone that we are unprepared to do. So, go side someone and journey with them. And you’ll go so much further.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 1:10:59

That’s wonderful. One of my favorite quotes just to jump off that same line, and I used it for myself, often in leaving corporate America in starting my business in quitting drinking was a stop asking people who aren’t going where you’re headed for directions, because so many of us look to others, to tell us what we should be doing. And if we don’t want what they have, inevitably, they’re going to lead us down the wrong path. Yeah, never take advice from someone you wouldn’t trade places with.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson 1:11:35

Yes. Okay. That’s a quicker way to say exactly what I meant to say. It’s hurt. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much..

 

1:11:46

Absolutely. I’m honored. Thank you.