SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking, people, employers, alcohol, company, employees, benefits, tessa, culture, hungover, offering, events, normalized, programs, options, hr, create, pandemic, home, mental health

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Tessa Lowe

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a buzz, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there. Today we’re talking about how to change an unhealthy drinking culture at work. A recent study found that when employers or supervisors initiate drinking events, which is so common, employees feel obligated to participate. And with 40% of Americans who consume alcohol, who also drink too much of it, linking drinking to work is obviously not ideal for people who are trying to cut back or who are questioning their relationship with alcohol. Recent articles in Slate and in The Washington Post and Women’s Business Daily have been running talking about how companies should end office happy hours because employees have workplace drinking anxiety because of them. And also about workplaces having a drinking culture and a problem and office drinking culture and why it is toxic. 

 

So I’m excited to have my guest on. Her name is Tessa Lowe and after over a decade of problematic drinking, she found herself at a crossroads during the pandemic. Tessa is a self proclaimed X Wine Mom that hit her own personal rock bottom in December of 2020. Tessa was inspired to start posting on TikTok about her own recovery and helped change the way people think about alcohol and drinking. She now works with both individuals and employers to help create both personal and organizational change. 

 

Tessa is also a good friend of mine; we met at the She Recovers conference in Miami this year. We found out that we both live in Seattle and have kids of similar ages. And Tessa has been kind enough to create an amazing mini course for my Sobriety Starter Kit® online sober coaching course on exactly how to overcome alcohol cravings. 

 

So Tessa, welcome, I am so glad you’re here.

 

03:27

Casey, thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to talk to you today.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  03:33

Yeah, I am, too. And you. And I know this is a topic that you’re really passionate about, because you worked in HR for so long and benefits. So can you tell me a little bit about what you’re seeing and why it’s concerning for you?

 

03:52

Yeah, I think, you know, drinking at work, we kind of like can all take us back to like the Mad Men era like the 1990s. And think about, like, that type of drinking and how that’s kind of like not a thing anymore. The concern now is more of this quiet quitting trend that’s happening. It’s where employers are really not putting people first and that is eerily similar to me in the whole recovery area where we really put the people, it’s the people that are the problem, not the substance. And that is very concerning, because I really think it’s all related. If the employees’ mental health is not being taken care of obviously salary is a big part of the quiet quitting but mental health is a close second. So companies really are not prioritizing mental health and the well being of their employees. And that’s why we’re seeing this trend which really should be called quiet firing not like quitting, because it really does put the blame on the employee when it’s really the employers responsibility.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  05:06

Yeah. And I remember back in the day, when I came to a startup company in Seattle, it was way back in the 2000s. I’m dating myself, and they were about to IPO. And the culture was so unhealthy at the time. I mean, they would every week when they were onboarding new employees, the employees were responsible for going out and getting a cake, and taking it around to everyone’s desk and getting them drinks on Fridays at 3pm. They had bunk beds in the workplace so that people could sleep, you know, if they were spending the night there because of working, or let’s face it, because partying, and the entire time I was working, going out for drinks with your colleagues, to pitch about work to commiserate about work, or with your team to pond was huge. I mean, that’s what it was all about. 

 

And when I was drinking, I absolutely loved it. Right. That was fabulous. But as I was questioning my drinking, as I was trying to stop drinking, and when I finally sort of told people that I was taking a 100 day break from alcohol, it was really difficult. We had the office happy hours, when we, as a team, did a great job there were bottles of champagne on our desks on Monday mornings, team events involved drinking, right? So it’s difficult if you’re worried about your drinking, or trying to stop when you not only have to deal with your girlfriends, your spouse, in society, but also your boss.

 

06:51

Yeah, for sure. And I think that is almost worse because we have this perception. I mean, there’s still a stigma out there, you and I are loud and proud. But the reality is, most people are not. And when you have to say it out loud to your boss, or your co-workers, it still can seem like some type of weakness and that you’ve been, you know, not performing and all of that. So there’s so much that goes along with sharing, sharing that, then you might have an issue at work. So yeah, and I relate so much. 

 

I mean, I think now it’s still a thing, I’m also going to date myself because we had in the 2000s a taxi voucher, but I know now still employers offer Uber code. And, you know, they offer these offer codes where it’s like, I mean, it’s like a hall pass to just get wasted on the company dime and then go home, you know, get home safely, hopefully. But it’s encouraging that like binge, over indulging and binging at work by offering you know, these codes so it’s like a catch 22 I think with the, you know, having drinks at work, employers want you to relate to your co workers, have fun, loosen up, they want to like create that morale and the camaraderie but at the same time, it’s a slippery slope, because then you get into, you know, so many issues, and it’s like the cost benefit. It’s, it’s really, at the end of the day, not worth it.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  08:21

Yeah. And it’s also I mean, there is one thing about pushing employees to drink if I actually do know a lot of workplace cultures that, you know, actually their colleagues, their boss, they want them to drink with them. I actually that’s one of the biggest things I work with my clients on when they’re going to biz on business trips, when they’re going out to working events where there’s drinks everywhere, it’s so common, and sort of coaching them through how to navigate that, what to say, how to take care of themselves in those situations. So that’s one thing, but it’s also an issue that there isn’t an awareness that not everyone drinks or wants to drink, and there’s no options for non drinkers, right? Like there’s two different cocktail options at holiday parties. But if you don’t drink it’s Diet Coke and Seltzer.

 

09:23

Oh, my God. Yes. I had one of my breaks. I had multiple attempts on trying to quit, but I was at a holiday party on one of my two week stints and I had asked for Pellegrino and it came in a glass that was clearly a water glass and it, you know, there’s co workers, people around me, and I was like whispering to this bartender, can you just put it in a glass so it looks like a drink with a lemon? And it’s like, we shouldn’t have to explain ourselves. We need, like, the, I think that’s a big one is to have those options, like a fun non alcoholic drink. There’s so many different beers, wines, you know, that are alcohol free. There, there really, that shouldn’t be a thing anymore and having a trained bartender that can, you know, handle these and welcome everyone, not just you know, the people that are indulging in the booze.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  10:21

Yeah, I completely agree. And a lot of this is just awareness. I hope that it’s changing a bit with the whole sober curious trend and more Gen Z and Millennials deciding not to drink. I have to say that the biggest drinking population are really Gen Xers and baby boomers especially are the biggest drinkers. And being a Gen Xer myself, we’re the ones in charge of a lot of companies right now just based on our age. And so, you know, I think it’s education, I have to say, when you actually do this is why I love the work you’re doing, and talking to companies about it. 

 

So obviously, I have an in with my husband, he is on the admin committee of his private school, he’s the head of a private Middle School. And I used to go to all their, you know, parent gathering events, and they didn’t have any non alcoholic options. And of course, because I talked to them all the time, I was like, kind of what the fuck dude, like, come on, you got to have non alcoholic beer, you have to have non alcoholic options, not everyone drinks. And so you know, at the latest gala kind of event where they get everybody to donate money, they not only had non alcoholic beer, but they had a whole separate table, like a bar table, they had alcoholic options and then they had non alcoholic options. And both were pretty fancy. And I was like, That is amazing. You know, and I was not the only one grabbing a non alcoholic beer. I wasn’t, you know.

 

11:57

That is amazing. I mean, every company organization needs a Casey just like in because you’re right. It’s just, it’s like when I was in it, and I was the one of course pushing and promoting at that time, but it’s, it’s the normies even it’s like, if you’re a Normie. It’s just having that awareness and knowing because a lot of this is just what we’ve been doing, especially for our generation. It’s like, well, this is what we do. And it’s I mean, sometimes you want to connect with the younger generation. So it feels like, well, this is what we do, but it’s really not. And I think showing that it’s so important, the statistic that you mentioned in the beginning with the managers, I mean, that’s really where the responsibility comes. It’s like showing that it’s not a thing so that it doesn’t become a thing for the younger generation is just so incredibly important. And then on what you mentioned about like, you know, hosting them at these wineries and breweries, it’s like, making sure that these are places where it’s like, it’s not, the booze is not the center of the entire then I think it’s critical. Where people you know, you won’t get the automatic No, and everyone feels welcome and included in the event. It’s really important.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  13:14

Yeah, and it’s not to say that you wouldn’t serve alcohol at some events. It’s just having other options, not making it the focus, like you said, I had a friend of mine who had a work mixer, she really wanted to go everyone’s remote meet your co workers, but it was being held at a winery wine tasting room in the Woodinville wine area, which we both live next to where there are 90 wine tasting rooms. And she was, you know, four months alcohol free and actually decided not to go because she’s like, there are going to be other events where you know, where we can mix where we can meet that aren’t at a winery. But that obviously is a really difficult thing to navigate.

 

14:04

Oh, yeah, I would, I basically said no to everything for the first six months. Yeah. And I think now it’s like you know, people are trying to get you know, employees back to work and there’s less of this like zoom Happy Hour and more like enticing people to go places. So I can also see the other side of it. It’s like you’re trying to get people together, come back together, get back into the office, but it’s definitely a fine line when there are so many other ways to provide employee perks. 

 

Like so, for example, when I worked at L’Oreal, one of my favorite perks was they brought in this amazing massage therapist every Thursday, and then there was so much demand. She came in every Tuesday and Thursday, and we had to pay for it right? It wasn’t like it was completely free so everyone could get a massage twice a week, but they provided her space. She had a set of Essential Oils, they manage the signups, we went in there, and so for 20 minutes, you got to sit in the chair and choose your essential oil and get a massage. That is so much better than bringing alcohol round to every single desk at the end of the day when people are picking up their kids and driving home.

 

15:19

Oh, that’s like, bar Happy Hour cart. I remember that. And, and I know I sent you to this other side of like, Oh, no 500+ employers that still have this unlimited, you know, tap of beer open, you know, all hours of the day. And I think like you mentioned there are people you know, even though all of the statistics say no amount of alcohol is healthy you and I like the macro that is zero is healthy, but at the same time, it’s not saying you know demonizing alcohol to say like I live in reality, you and I both live in reality. And this is like, how it is. It’s you know, being aware that type of, those events, that type of like perk is promoting drinking for certain people where so if a barchart comes around to a Normie, they might be like, you know, take it or leave it kind of thing. Like, it’s awkward, you are encouraged, you are somewhat pressured, right? There’s people if there’s a barchart there, they’re like, really, you’re not going to drink, why aren’t you

having? I got home, I gotta go pick up my kid. Whereas, you know, drinking Tessa I saw that as a green light to say, Okay, this is my like, okay to like start indulging on the company dime. And it’s, again, it’s promoting that where there are certain people where it really does become a problem. 

 

And I think for me, how it started with me in the corporate world was it was kind of like the seed that was planted for me that this is like, this is okay. These people are my friends, my co workers where I am able to let loose and then all of a sudden I was letting loose to the point where I’m, you know, blacking out at a company function and ending up in a bathroom having to be driven home. I mean, I’ve had many of those situations where it’s like, and again, I take now personal responsibility for the things that but it’s like that type of drinking and over indulging was normalized hangovers are normalized. There’s these kinds of free, you know, there’s these hangover PTO days that employers offer.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  17:33

That is true, I saw you post about that, that insiders are offering hangover relief.

 

17:39

It is so and that was something that was around even, you know, when I was, you know, five years ago, it was not called that. But it was the day after a company function. Yes, neurotically given off as a day to take off because the employer assumed that everyone would be hungover or that was the, that was the, that was what everyone said was happening. And so it kind of gives that green light to people that are problematic drinkers to say, like, you’re, you’re basically giving us that moment to say, Okay, this is okay. And my behavior is okay, because everyone else is doing it when in reality, not everyone is actually hungover on that day. But in my mind, and I know a lot of people, you know, this is the way we think, is that, yes, everyone’s hungover, everyone blocked out. And that’s absolutely not the truth. But it’s as an employer, it’s just such a dangerous, dangerous way to set your culture up. 

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  18:39

One, the thing is, too, that, you know, we talk about this all the time, how society has completely normalized binge drinking and daily drinking. And when your company is doing it with those day, days off afterwards, or the Ubers home, like, yes, that is fabulous to keep your employees safe. And it is also another indication that you, you know, it’s normalizing binge drinking, it’s normalizing drinking to the point where you’re not safe to drive home. And I say this as someone who was the queen of binge drinking at work events like I am in no way saying, oh my god, people are so bad. What I am saying is that when you realize that drinking is an issue, and when you’re like shit, I really got to stop. It makes it incredibly hard to do so with the popular culture. 

 

The other thing I was going to say when drinking is such a big part of the company culture, I was actually worried when I was like shit, I gotta stop drinking. I gotta take a break. This is, this is not good. I can’t moderate. I was more worried about having no negative consequences at work from stopping drinking, and what people, quote unquote, may think of me than I was in the fact that like on business trips, on dinners, I was stumbling, and like scratching up my leg on the way home from dinner with my boss and my colleagues, right? That is crazy, I was more worried about like, what people would think if I stopped drinking, or that I wouldn’t be able to bond with people, then having truly inappropriate conversations, gossiping, slightly toxic, talking about my boss, not remembering shit in the morning, right? Sharing things as a director that I should not be sharing. I was more worried about what people would think if I stopped drinking. And yes, part of that is me as a drinker being like, Oh my God, they’re all gonna know I have a problem, as opposed to a health kick, because it is completely bad for your health. So taking a break from alcohol is like, way better for your body than even running a marathon. But that just goes to show how normalized drinking is in our society.

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, the sobriety starter kit.

 

The sobriety starter kit is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

 

21:09

Ah, it’s like that, just so relatable. I mean, that is exactly how I felt for so long. And I mean, that goes back to the stigma of it’s very black and white. And most HR policies, and employers see it that way, that it’s either you drink this poison and moderation and keep your shit together, or we have these policies to reprimand you and send you to rehab if needed. It’s buried in the policies where it’s very black and white, you know, and in, and in reality, there’s this whole population of gray area drinkers that may or may not develop, you know, some may go on to be able to moderate I believe there’s a very small percentage of people that can do that. But others will eventually it’s just a matter of time, because we all know Bactrim. And so it’s, it’s like when it’s a matter of when it will happen. Yeah, and I think employers that can recognize that, and it’s about showing that you value your employees at whatever stage because that 20 year old that may have an issue in her 40s will remember how they were treated. At that time, when they did have this, you know, gray area situation, they will remember how you put them, the person, first, rather than saying like, you know, putting the substance as like a company, you know, free beer as company morale.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  22:35

Yeah. Well, so talk to me about the policies as they are now or as they used to be from someone who worked in HR and benefits because I know that if you were to go away, quote, unquote, because you had to go to rehab, or because you had a major issue that was very hush hush that was very, this is not good. This is bad, you know, this is gonna hurt your career. And yet, if there were, I mean, so many of us are on the gray area drinking spectrum, if there was awareness and benefits to help you, you know, talk to a counselor, cut down on alcohol consumption, offer some, you know, benefits to not drinking alcohol, that would really be helpful.

 

23:26

Yeah, and I think you and I both know, an employer or HR is likely the last person that you’re going to go to, oh, god, yes. And so I think the policies now I mean, the traditional policies are there in place for those people that hit you know, they’re not showing up to work. They’re, they’re, you know, alcohol is really impacting their daily lives, and they’re needing it like to physically survive, or are suspecting that they’re drinking at work or drunk at work, or the smell of alcohol, which isn’t the vast majority of people that were drinking got it like, that is when it’s too late at that point, that is like the ending point. And that’s there. And there are systems set up for that, where people I think people also don’t realize that they can, there’s a lot of protections in place for privacy, for leave, and for being treated just as any other illness so people can take

that. 

 

Can we dig into that for a while, because I didn’t know. And you’re almost afraid to ask what the right season protections are or you just assume that it is terrible. So just so we know, kind of, what the policies are right now, will you tell us about that? 

 

24:44

Like the benefit is, I mean, so on a basic level, most plans will say the employers have to treat. It’s a medical condition so every, it’s protected by HIPAA. There is no like, there’s no sharing of that private health information. And if your company offers some type of short term disability, there’s rehab coverage and a lot of different plans, it really depends on the company and their policy and what’s included. What’s cool now is that a lot of employers are offering these other benefits. Like there’s a lira restart program, there’s monument, there’s all these other programs that employers are including. I think RIA health is another one. I’m just, I’m not affiliated with any of these in any way, but I just know of them. 

 

But as you know, it’s not a one size fits all recovery. And people need what’s most needed. Before all of that are the mental health benefits. Yes. And all of the statistics are showing how alcohol related mental health claims have gone up over 50% in the past couple years. And so having a robust mental health program is really what will help people to get into that readiness of change. Because I know, I don’t know about you, but I spent, I mean, that was the majority of my work, it was always something else was wrong. It was not the alcohol, there was something else, like there was something else going on. So it was many years of that self discovery before I came to the point where I realized it was alcohol. Yeah, that, that takes a lot of mental health, you know, benefits and claims to have like get that coverage. So I think he’s making sure that you have access to that. 

 

And I mean, on the other flip side of it, there’s a shortage, there’s not enough therapists to, to cover all that. So employers have, you know, offering any type of perk benefit, and related to like coaching with what you do, and with other coaching platforms, like better up, I mean, there’s so much out there now, that’s available and that your employer might already be offering, it’s about asking, and if you don’t feel comfortable asking HR at your company, most employers have a broker and those brokers will have something like an advocate, where it’s a third party that you can call or just call the insurance company directly. So if you have like a BlueCross, medical, you know, Cigna, Aetna, you can always just call directly to find out what you don’t rehab benefits, what programs are included in the medical plan, but all those ancillary like the other programs that I mentioned, those are like extras that you would find in your benefits program at work or by calling the benefits broker.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  27:33

I think that is a great suggestion and information that a lot of people listening to this may not know about one thing that I think would be really helpful, and I’m glad you’re talking to companies about this is, you know, if you do work for a corporate company, or even schools or even smaller companies, a lot of times sort of annually, they have a company wide meeting where they talk about the benefits, they talked about the premiums, what’s included if they switched, accompany, etc. And a lot of times they’ll go through short term disability, long term disability, how many chiropractor appointments you get, and by the way, I love chiropractors, how many massage appointments you get, if they have an online health counselor, if they kind of included in there, hey, if you’re if you feel like you’re drinking too much, and you want to cut back, we also cover these various programs, just as an awareness that it is a health issue that people go through or even you know, people talk about mental health or if you’re dealing with end of life care of a parent or you know, a kid who has behavioral issues or is on a spectrum, just the awareness that this is yet another thing that your employees struggle with, and that if you were to provide help with they will be better able to be a great employee to have energy to have mental clarity to struggle less.

 

29:02

Yeah, and I think there’s a fear. I mean, there’s the traditional EAP employee assistance program that is talked about in those open enrollment meetings. And I think there is a fear that employee employers are tracking that and somehow No, so like we were talking about the employers, the last person, it’s a stigma that if they know I have this problem, then I’m not going to get the promotion, I’m not going to be able to do this and the reality is they’re not tracking that information.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  29:32

They aren’t. So they are not, if you do not, your EAP for marriage counseling, they don’t know if you use it for legal options. They don’t know if you use it for alcohol counseling, coaching support programs or anything else.

 

29:49

No, and honestly, I say that no, there’s not. They get an aggregate report that I used to look at all the time and it just shows the number of people that called in. It has no names or anything like that. So it’s all protected by HIPAA. My only hesitation was saying EAP is just because, again, the lack of availability of therapists and quality people out there to really help with this type of situation, I think it’s just important for employers to realize that, am I look, when they’re looking at their benefits program as that approaches, a lot of them are January 1, am I providing adequate benefits, is the EAP enough, is there you know, there’s these added on programs that you can add on to the AP to make sure that it is providing adequate support, because it’s not just the people with the substance abuse, it’s having that support for their husbands, for their dependents as children, like you said. 

 

Because I know for me, I am a much better I mean, we still have my, our problems, but I’m a much better spouse, wife, mother, now that I no longer have, you know, this issue with alcohol and, and that’s a big deal for my husband, he’s more productive, he’s able to, like, you know, not have to take off work because of some situation where I have to go pick up my car downtown, like it’s like, I mean, the list goes on of like, how much productivity is lost by not addressing this issue for employers? Like, it just blows my mind the focus that it’s not a thing? Because if you look at the data and how much I mean, these like hangover days, how much people miss work because of hangovers, how much is spent on benefits, and that’s just what is reported, which is crazy. Because do you know, I mean, how many times did you show up to work.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  31:44

I was about to say, like I used to, quote unquote, work from home or not feel well and call sick often because I was hungover and maybe I shouldn’t say often, but like, certainly eight times a year, you know what I mean? Like, where I was just not feeling well, because I was hungover and I would work from home. You know, when I was in my early 20s, I used to work for a consulting firm, where, you know, they brought in 25 kids right out of college every single year in a class. And we worked super long hours, we worked weekends. And you know, 80% of the company was under the age of 27. So we used to drink a lot, come in and like nap under our desks. When I worked at Getty Images, I went down to the LA office and drank so much before clients. Maybe instead I was like, throwing up in the office bathroom before going to work meetings. And I say this, because I’m not the only one, you know, we talk to each other, like I was not an isolated case of someone who needed strength. And it definitely affected my work performance. But even if I had been educated about gray area drinking, or ways to cut back or the health benefits, I mean, when I was drinking a lot, I was completely clueless about this kind of stuff. I really was.

 

33:18

Oh, yeah. And that is I mean, that goes back to it’s not. It’s not the center of things, but making sure it’s so for you and I then it was so normalized. And I think a lot of employers now are realizing that there are certain departments obviously, like sales departments are probably more on this side or tech companies. But it really is the responsibility of the employer to make sure that is not the center of whatever is happening, you know, outside of these corporate retreats, or different places that it is, it’s not all about the alcohol so that it’s not as normalized. So people are going to be hungover, people are going to show up hungover. It’s just the fact of like, I would sit there I don’t know if you would do this, but I would sit there and try and pull people to see like, Are you as over as me because I wanted the justification that I was no quote unquote, quote normal and that that is like something that can a culture of that not being okay. Yeah, will help the person. I mean, no matter what, there’s going to be substance abuse. I mean, we can’t avoid, but to have it not be as normalized we’ll help somebody to hopefully at the end of the day, get help sooner and that’s the goal of all of this while

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  34:37

also normalizing not drinking, normalizing being alcohol free, right, which sounds crazy, but it’s true. This isn’t about shaming anyone who is hungover or shaming anyone who drinks a lot. I was there but it is about making it perfectly normal that you know, we talked about normalizing sleep variety, right? Yeah, not being pressured to drink, offering other options, having that be part of the conversation. And I think that’s so much more important now than ever before you, you know, not only in terms of society, but also in terms of like the bottom line of companies, because you sent me a report that actually did not surprise me at all, that alcohol related medical claims increased by 34%, during the pandemic, and the top for mental health related conditions that increased were depressive disorders, sleep wake disorders, and alcohol related and opioid related disorders.

 

35:48

Should insane. And again, it’s how employers can turn a blind eye to this. I think what might be going through an employer’s mind again, I don’t think this is like an intentional thing. I just don’t think that that unintentional cost of how a company structures, their culture, and different ways they go about business, I don’t think they realize that a lot of that can be avoided, not all of it, not all of it can be avoided. And a lot of those claims are not reported. Because if you think about the therapy that I did, that I just paid out of pocket, or you know, all these different things were the conditions at the very top, after you have a serious health claim like that, the consequences and the mental health consequences of that that’s like not even being wrapped into those numbers.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  36:40

Yeah, I mean, I never admitted to anyone at work how much I was drinking, but I was going to therapy for anxiety, for depression, for overwhelm. I was occasionally going to my boss in tears being like, I can’t go on this business trip, there’s so much work to do. And the truth is, I was strung so tight because of my drinking that I couldn’t cope. I would never say that. But just normalizing like, hey, lots of people struggle with this, especially after the pandemic, it is, you know, normal that people are drinking more than is healthy, and it’s impacting mental health, we have benefits to help you cut back stop, quit whatever you need, just normalizing that conversation.

 

37:31

Yeah, and I think it is like so important to have the support available and have managers, like training managers, and everyone in HR that are likely a lot of normies, that they just understand the impact of the small things that happen on a complete company level make a really big impact. So having somebody, maybe there’s an executive in recovery that would be willing to speak at some type of off site that will go so far, that is like better than any, you know, 20 morale boosting pizzas that you can buy that will go so long. I just imagine like 25 year old me listening to that, that was just stuck with me that would tell me this company is people first they care about me, this person is sharing their story. Or even having somebody like you and I URI come in and speak I think is like, would speak volumes to say like we support people who have gone through this, if you’re struggling here is what you can do. And offering. I mean, it can be as small as like, I mean, there are just so much, there’s so many resources and having HR understand that it’s not just rehab, a, you know, there’s this in between, and there is so much more education around that. I mean, not just for HR, I mean, I think for like metal, we could get into a whole thing about like doctors and..

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  39:08

Oh my god, I was just about to say, you know, HR and managers do need to be educated in the same way that doctors do. And nurses in terms of just knowing that there is this spectrum of people on the alcohol use disorder spectrum that is way larger than they believe it is and that it isn’t just you’re a quote unquote alcoholic versus there is no issue here. This is something that people need support within the same way that they do in anything else. And one thing that I imagined although I have to say that some of the most painful training and I ever went through in corporate is like the sexual harassment trainings with the awful awful videos and oh my god at L’Oreal, we had some with like Financial things that were unacceptable are sort of like gifts and bribes and videos. Oh my god, so painful and awful that you had to check off but just part of the conversation in terms of what’s acceptable with sexual harassment and part of the conversation about burnout and of the conversation about alcohol use disorder, just educating people would be hugely helpful.

 

40:26

It is and the Yeah, you for sure would cut back on a lot of those incidents, the sexual harassment and just when people do I think that it is not in every company. But I think that the education that’s been going on for the last 20 years has certainly made people much more aware of things that you cannot say that were just commonplace back in the day when I started.

 

40:56

Right? Yeah. And it is for sure, I know, it’s changed so much. And, and I know employers are doing a lot just from the programs that I see that are available and that employers are purchasing to support their employees. So there’s so much but it’s, it goes further, I’m seeing a lot out there of employers just saying like for an event, the code of conduct, you don’t have to drink. Okay. It’s like one thing to say it like you don’t have to drink, but it’s like, what? Like that. It’s not very helpful. So again, it’s like creating this environment where everyone feels included and included in you know, different events, and in general, at work will go a long way, because they’ll feel more supported. Like they’re, it’s a people first culture.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  41:49

Yeah, yeah. And I know, at different companies I’ve been with sometimes they had, you know, yoga classes mid day at various places, or, you know, did off sites where it was sort of team building challenges, and you know, you’re outdoors in the woods. And granted, like, lots of people don’t like those, meaning like I had to climb up there was like a ropes course. And apparently, I’m afraid of heights, like my leg was shaking like crazy. And they took pictures, and I looked awful in those little hats, the helmets, but neither here nor there, there are other options than going to a winery.

 

42:29

Yeah, for sure. And those those morale boosting events, I think are great, but also remembering like to specifically say maybe it’s just, instead of the holiday, we’re going to give you $100 gift card to go, you know, take care of yourself the way you need to or take a Friday afternoon off and do something that you want to do that makes feel like fills your cup, I think those types of you know, giving people letting them have their space with the, you know, going back to the quiet quitting, it’s like, it’s like people are not feeling valued as workers and how do you go back to recognizing that there are people with needs and have lives outside of work? And those types of perks go along with?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  43:13

Yeah. And I have to mention, as you mentioned, bringing in people in different organizations, one thing that I love that Lisa Smith, who wrote Girl Walks Out of a Bar, and I did interview her on this podcast, and we talked about it. So I’ll link to that. She is a lawyer. And she’s actually brought into different law firms and practices to talk about alcohol abuse, drug abuse within the specific law community, because it is so rampant, and talking about options and just normalizing the conversation. And I think that’s amazing. Because people do change when they know more, you know, and they don’t feel like they’re the only one and you couldn’t possibly tell people what you’re doing. Because it is so bad. Or everyone’s doing it.

 

44:15

Right. Right. And it is, it takes that one person and that it. It’s such a big deal. Just one person sharing their story. I mean, that’s what helps us. I think that’s why we go to meetings, and it’s like sharing is so powerful. So God awful. It doesn’t have to be again, there’s people like you and I that are willing to do this because not everyone. There’s a reason and it took me a while to be able to do this. My first like three years I was just like, Oh, I’m healthier without alcohol like

 

44:50

I was not out. Yeah, yeah. But it goes a long way. If there, if companies you know bring people in that are willing to share those stories. You know, regardless if you have a problem with alcohol, they are powerful, very powerful.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  45:09

Yeah. And I love that. Like, so, for example, The Washington Post, and I’ll link to this in the show notes, did write stories, as have many others, and I’ll link to them as well, you know, stating, does your workplace have a drinking culture and a problem and talk about? Do you hold a number of your business meetings in bars? Do you regularly take new recruits out drinking is part of their rite of passage, and asked, okay, what’s the problem with a drinking culture at work, and then stated that alcohol abuse can be very costly, there obviously are accidents and safety when operating machinery but beyond that, for people who aren’t in those fields, lost productivity, substance abusers are 10 times more likely to miss work 33% less productive, even when they’re at work. And the cost of replacing employees cost anywhere from 25% to 200%. of their compensation. And I love that The Washington Post shared this about higher health care expenditures for you know, that drive up premiums, all those kinds of things, because, you know, a lot of companies are motivated by the bottom line. And the people who are, you know, the managers, the directors, the head of groups, even HR who are arranging the company events in bars, or taking new recruits out for drinks, they may not be aware of it. So when companies know that this impacts productivity, their bottom line, their premiums, health care claims, they’re more likely to talk about it.

 

46:57

Yeah, and I think that that’s the, that’s the rub is that employers want people to socialize, they want to create that culture and, and traditionally, that has been done through alcohol. And again, there are people that can consume it in a normal, quote, unquote. But it’s the unintentional costs that really can creep in. But I think that we will start seeing, like, I remember, I would see like the smoking cessation benefit, there’s going to be something that’s just like automatic and standard and a thing. And then, I mean, my dream, and I know, our hope in the recovery community is that alcohol will be like smoking one day, like, not that cool anymore. Yeah. I mean, that would be my hope that it is like this is the reality today, but you know, that smoking cessation, we’re going to see that come into play where it is no longer no longer a thing.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  48:04

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, also, sexual harassment issues and other issues, like definitely come up more often, when it’s a huge drinking environment, as well, right.

 

48:20

And employers are quick to slip want those to, you know, push those under the rug, because, you know, they don’t want any HR issues. But is it really worth it to offer, you know, for your employees that with booze and deal with those, you know, legal consequences to me it just like, a no brainer, that it’s no longer it’s just not working anymore. It’s no longer this like morale boosting, enticing way to get employees, like work harder, you know, play harder. That’s like the one red flag that I say like if an employer says we work hard, play hard. That’s like,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  48:57

Oh, I know. Right? And so many people do that. Right? That’s like the line.

 

49:04

Right? And that’s like, that’s a red flag that’s like, culture of Yeah, culture of drinking away.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  49:11

Yeah, I know. And there is actually I mean, there’s so much of that language that actually shapes the culture of companies, unintentionally, intentionally one of my favorite companies that you know, Seattle is the land of startups in tech. But there is a company here called Textio. That reviews the language that employers use in performance reviews, and in job descriptions to change it. Because so many of the words use turn off women and attract men just by the words in the language they use, and it also can hurt women in performance reviews when all the stats show that often. Women are better managers and producers, better bottom line profits and all the things. So I love that that company exists. And I also think that as you’re shifting the language around that, some of those sort of coded words for, we drink a lot. And if you don’t drink, you won’t be a culture fit, right? You love that culture fit words. You might be screening out people who would be fantastic additions to the company.

 

50:30

Yeah, I think people who I mean, I just know myself, I’m so much more productive and get stuff done now. Like, kind of want people like that, that could actually like, wake up and go to work every day.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  50:47

Yeah, right. So what can people do to change the drinking culture at their workplace? Or to navigate it?

 

50:58

Yeah, I think as an individual that might be struggling to step one would be if you feel comfortable going to HR just asking for your benefits brochure, and and what programs are not only in, you know, rehab, if that’s necessary in in the plan, but also these ancillary programs, like lire all these other programs that the employer might have coaching, some employers reimburse for different type of coaching programs, try out your EAP a lot of them have these enhanced programs now, on top of the EAP, that are better than you know what we have seen the three visit model that is it has been around forever. So and then again, if you’re not comfortable going to your HR department, asking for the broker information, or third party to call or call the programs directly. 

 

And then, yeah, as an employer, I think step one, like you talked about, is that awareness. I mean, any HR professional or employer that’s listening to this right now, I think that is huge, just to be aware of these small things that really can make a huge impact on how employer employees perceive you. And this whole quiet quitting movement. It really is this, you know, substance abuse, alcohol is so tied to an employer’s culture. And it’s just important, I have resources available that I can send over for you to link for different employers on these different ideas that we talked about for holiday parties and different retreats and events. So I have a tip sheet that I can send you. And then again, having somebody that is well versed and can speak about your benefits program, and knows about substance abuse and recovery, hiring somebody to do that during open enrollment, which is also something that I can provide is another major, major step one, I think that any employer.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  53:12

And a lot of people who are listening to this may be in early sobriety, longer, alcohol free, and yet are still working in a drinking culture, I wanted to mention that some small shifts that they could even take are very helpful. So a lot of times I know in the companies I worked with, there was sort of an employee morale committee or they had free, not free anonymous suggestion boxes. So you could certainly submit something that says or, you know, I would love it if non alcoholic beverage options were provided at various company events, or it would be great if we didn’t hold company events, in drinking establishments, for people who don’t consuming alcohol, not to say you can’t offer it but where it is not the primary option. 

 

I know that a lot of people who work with vendors, I was in marketing, we always had vendors send us gifts at holiday time. And a lot of times they involved alcohol. I know that some clients of mine have been thrilled when they get gifts that don’t include alcohol, just have other options, which are wonderful, and there are a lot out there. So you know, not having the head of the department. Go around and ask people what they want, you know, to drink because there is some inherent pressure, you know what I mean? So, there’s a lot there. Maybe if you go out and not ordering multiple bottles of wine for the table at a working event, you know, just those kinds of things that normalize not everyone drinks.

 

55:01

Not everyone drinks and just know that I love that so much. I also love the like option of the base is just a drink and then having alcohol be optional to add. So it’s like everyone just gets this beautiful garnish drink and then the alcohol is optional. Yeah, like, why can’t, that just doesn’t make sense to me. Like that is just so it seems so basic, but it’s like, let’s just create the base with no toxins. 

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  55:32

And yeah, if you really want it, yeah, and just just being aware, I mean, I think that what will help as well is just this conversation that’s going on. And it really is changing. Even in the last five years, both the conversation about the fact that during the pandemic binge drinking among women went up by 41%. And that drinking among parents of children under five went up 320%. And when that study showed that alcohol related medical health claims went up 34%, the actual death rate of women from alcohol related problems was growing at a rate of 2% a year to 3% a year and in 2020, it went up year over year by 25%. This is not a small problem. This is a public health pandemic that nobody is talking about.

 

56:27

Yeah, and employers can do a lot to help to reduce some of that, and they have a responsibility to put people first. And to realize that this is such a huge issue. I’m so grateful for you, Casey. And everything that you’re doing this is like, just I don’t even know if you know how many like people this is reaching. It’s just like, makes me want to cry.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  56:50

Amazing. Well, I’m so grateful for everything you’re doing. I mean, I’m so glad we met, I’m so glad we became friends. I’m glad we live like, what, 20 minutes apart. But also, I think that the work you’re doing in spreading the word, with HR, with employers with your work in the tick tock, sober mom, community is so helpful. And I have to mention that as I said earlier, Tessa created this amazing training for my online sobriety starter kit course that’s a bonus that’s on step by step how to overcome alcohol cravings in early sobriety. And I hope that in this interview, you’ve seen how approachable and real and cool Tessa is. I think that she breaks it down in a very relatable way that is easy to follow, and really helps you succeed, and not drinking, when all of your sort of habits and instincts are telling you to. So thank you for that as well. 

 

Of course, I hope people find it useful.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  58:03

Yeah, I know they will. All right, well send me all those links, I want to include everything I hope. Again, anyone who works in a drinking culture who listens to this, found some helpful tips, some ideas about ways to navigate or change that culture. Anyone in HR or benefits. If you want to get in touch with Tessa, or want to take these tips, I will have her information in the show notes of this episode. And anyone in a position of leadership at any company can help. You can help change this culture, you can help highlight benefits related to both mental health and alcohol use disorder or just cutting back on drinking within your benefits. But like my husband, you also can just say, Hey, we’re having a big event, a holiday party or whatever back to work event. Let’s make sure we have a table or bar options that are actually highlighted for non alcoholic options in addition to alcoholic options that I have to mention that the non alcoholic beer, wine, spirits, market is exploding. 

 

So when you do this, you are not an outlier, there is a demand for these beverages. Every alcohol company is concerned about all the health information coming out there because Dear God, people are starting to believe that alcohol is not good for their health in any way. But also they’re like shit, we’ve got to create a non alcoholic option and I’m talking about Heineken, and Guinness and all those in addition to the amazing craft breweries and spirits and wineries that are creating just non alcoholic options.

 

59:51

They are so good. They’re so, yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  59:54

All right. Thank you. This has been amazing.

 

59:58

Thank you so much, Casey

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:00