How To Examine Your Relationship With Alcohol

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

drinking, alcohol, people, sober, life, emotion, feel, self-care, self-compassion, therapy, parenting boundaries, workbook, worksheets, book, stopped, sobriety, thinking, dating, moderate, wine, therapists, experience, coping, helpful, talk, identifying what your values are, aligning your life according to your values, Not Drinking Tonight

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Amanda E. White

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a buzz, how to sit with your emotions when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hi there. Today we are talking about how to examine your relationship with alcohol. And my guest is Amanda E. White. She’s a mental health clinician, the creator of the popular Instagram account Therapy For Women and Author of the best-selling book, Not Drinking Tonight. She’s back today because she developed a resource called, Not Drinking Tonight: The Workbook.

 

Having been sober for over eight years herself, Amanda tackles the most pressing question, if my alcohol use has become problematic, but I don’t identify as an alcoholic or have no interest in traditional abstinence based methods, like rehab or 12 Step groups, how can I move forward? Now you might recognize Amanda because she’s one of my favorite cast.

 

She’s actually been on the podcast twice before in Episode 130, which you can find at hellosomedaycoaching.com/130. We talked about therapy for women, and why women seek out therapy for support the most important factors in determining positive outcomes for therapy, red flags to watch for if a therapist isn’t the right fit for you, and why women often are not taught the foundational skills, they need to process difficult emotions, and so much more. So, if you liked this interview, I highly recommend you go back to Episode 130.

 

And I also had Amanda on to talk about her first book, Not Drinking Tonight, which came out a year ago in January 2022. Where we go into the tools you need to heal your relationship with alcohol, and so much more read parenting boundaries, self-care, self-compassion.

 

So, Amanda, welcome again. I’m so glad you’re able to come back on.

 

03:28

Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me, Casey.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  03:31

Yeah, and I know this book is more of a workbook, and helps you work through what to do when you’re feeling stuck in recovery. But can you tell me all about it?

 

03:43

Yeah, I’m really excited about the workbook because, as you know, with my regular book, part of what I like to doing with it is there are like questions and some exercises at the end of every chapter. And a lot of the feedback I got was, you know, these questions are amazing. But like, I want more, I want more exercises, there are some graphics in my book that people wanted to be able to kind of dig into and unpack. And this workbook is really the answer to that. While it’s completely independent from the book. And you don’t have to read the book to pick up the workbook. It also complements the book while being new. And it has, you know, like 11 different chapters, it goes through tons of exercises, not just around surface level questions about alcohol, like coming up with a relapse prevention plan or looking at your triggers, but also some of the deeper things that come up when you stop drinking. Like how do you set boundaries with friends? How do you make new friends? How do you have sex, you know, without drinking, if that’s what you’re used to. So, it really digs into some of those deep questions through worksheets and exercises. And that’s what I’m really excited about in the book or the workbook.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  05:06

Yeah. And I know, it’s got sort of a dual purpose. It’s meant to help therapists and coaches like me, and a bunch of other people sort of if you’re working with clients, help them process through it. And I assume, it’s also really helpful for therapists and coaches who don’t normally work with women who struggle with alcohol, because they may not be aware of all the things that are involved beyond drinking or not drinking that go along with coping.

 

05:37

Exactly, exactly. I think a lot of people to a lot of therapists, and I think coaches are kind of bridging this gap right now, because a lot of therapists are taught, you know, someone who has an alcohol use disorder, needs to go to rehab needs to be abstinent needs to follow the strict plan. That’s what they kind of teach us in school. And there isn’t a lot of understanding of, you know, the gray area drinking, there isn’t a lot of understanding of how do I work with a client who maybe doesn’t meet criteria, you know, for a problem, or does it meet criteria to go to rehab, but they’re still unhappy with their drinking? And I think, I think it’s really important for clinicians, because it’s, it’s why, like I said, coaches have kind of filled the gap. Because if you haven’t been through that yourself, I think it’s really hard clinically to understand where to go with a client like that. Yeah,

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  06:33

I mean, I think it’s usually important and even physicians are, I’ve talked to a number of doctors and people in the medical field, and they’re also not educated in the gray area of drinking a lot of times, and like you said, I think it’s their training. But either in their mind, someone needs to go to a 12 step program or rehab, or, quote, unquote, you’re fine. I mean, yeah, right, which is not helpful if someone’s actually struggling with alcohol.

 

07:04

Absolutely. And I think a lot of doctors and you know, like, clinicians sometimes use themselves as a reference. And they will kind of try to understand why maybe someone who’s drinking one glass of wine tonight wants to change that behavior. And they may be tempted to kind of say, like, maybe it’s not that big of a deal. Or maybe you don’t really have a problem, you know, maybe you’re kind of like, you know, feeling overly concerned about this thing, rather than recognizing that if someone says this is an issue, regardless of what their drinking looks like, it’s an issue for them. And a lot of times, I think doctors and clinicians are taught to look for the consequences. So, they get stumped. If someone’s consequences aren’t typical of someone struggling.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  07:55

Yeah. And not only that, what I’ve seen is that either they minimize it right? Well, even two glasses of wine that’s not that big of a deal. Meaning, I mean, I’m a coach, and I actually work with quite a few doctors. Wow, I are so interesting therapists, I mean, all of them to manage drinking, or to stop. I mean, I’m a sober coach, I work with women right off clunky. or so for example, myself, I actually drink a bottle of wine at night. And, you know, every night 365 nights a year, and yet, I stopped drinking very happily without a 12 step program and without rehab. And so, if they were to say to me, Okay, on this spectrum, either a glass of wine a night, don’t worry about it, you’re being hard on yourself. You’re overly focused on this, or you drink a bottle of wine a night. Wow, go to rehab. I mean, both of those are not terribly helpful. If you don’t totally, you know, there are a lot of other ways to process your habitual physical, emotional use of alcohol.

 

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s exactly right. The problem is it’s not tailored, it’s like these black and white solutions. And, you know, when I stopped drinking, I wasn’t drinking every day, but I was binge drinking, but I was young, I was 24. When I stopped drinking, I was going out with friends. And thankfully, I had a therapist who was sober so she was able to kind of understand the nuance of it, but I had had previous therapists who were who were like, you’re making a big deal out of this, you know, just work on you know, a lot of it was like, consequent minimization or management of just try not to be like a jerk, or friends when you go out, you know, don’t drink and drive things like that, which, I mean, those are harm reduction methods. Those are valid, but there wasn’t a conversation about also maybe drinking is the problem, maybe, you know, we should talk about cutting back.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  10:05

Yeah. Yeah. Or the order. The suggestion is like, why don’t you just not have the last drink? And I’m like, Oh my God, why didn’t? Like I’ve been trying to not have the last drink slash three drinks for like, five years. So that’s very helpful, you know?

 

10:27

And a lot of people exactly who ended up with, you know, in the position that we did exactly what you’re chasing is that middle point, right? You’re chasing the tip seed, you know, I’m a little bit drunk, so I can get out of things and get out of my head, but not too much that I lose control. And I don’t remember what happened. But it’s a really, for some of us, it’s a really impossible, you know, place to chase.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  10:55

Yes, absolutely. And so, as I look at some of the work you do in the workbook, I know that it’s about a couple of different areas, like one is, what to do when you feel stuck in recovery. So, is that for people who’ve already stopped drinking or somewhat consider themselves in the recovery space and yet feel like they’re not making progress?

 

11:27

Yeah, I think that that’s exactly where it is. And I tried to create a workbook to that could meet people like anywhere they are on the spectrum, whether you are just exploring the idea of cutting back on drinking, I mean, I have a whole chapter on mindful drinking on moderation, you know, for people that want to explore it that way. But it’s also a lot of the deeper stuff I was talking about earlier, is really relevant for people who have stopped drinking, and they feel like they don’t have friends anymore, or they feel terrified of going on dates, or things like that. So not every worksheet will apply to every person necessarily. But there are, I think, 30 worksheets, at least in the book, there’s a lot of worksheets, and many of them are multiple pages. So there really is something for almost everyone at any, at any space.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  12:24

Yeah. And so, let’s talk about moderation and harm reduction. Because I think that’s something that that I know, I tried for many, many years. But, you know, other people, you know, that’s something that certainly most of us explore for a long time. Will you tell us in this book, how you sort of move through that? Sure.

 

12:51

Yeah. And I’m really of the belief to that. I mean, in my experience, some people can moderate, some people can’t. And I think what’s really hard about it is there it’s really, really hard to know. And some of I think, the hard part about being a clinician or coach, right, is you have to give someone space to experiment. Yeah, to try things and to see if it works for them or not. And again, that’s very against, right, like the black and white sort of mentality that that we’re talking about. And I think there is so much more power when someone discovers for themselves something rather than we try to tell them, yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  13:32

And they’ll always wonder, and they’re always kind of want to go back. I mean, I know that I stopped drinking for a year, and then decided that it was situational, and that I could moderate, and then found myself pretty quickly right back in the same situation. So, it took me two years to stop again, after a lot of attempts to moderate or stop. But the second time that I kind of got sober momentum and started feeling better. I was like, it’s the alcohol that makes me feel sad and doomed, but I wouldn’t, you know, I think I always would have wondered if it was situational, where I could moderate after stopping and finally got to the point where I was like, Yep, no, I can’t life is easier and happier for me just not to drink at all.

Casey McGuire Davidson 

Hi there. If you’re listening to this episode, and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit.

 

The Sobriety Starter Kit is an online self study sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step by step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one on one coaching. And the sobriety starter kit is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it. And when it fits into your schedule. You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time.

This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step by step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking, from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better. You’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach, you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course 

 

14:27

Yes, absolutely. I’m glad that you said that. Because that is part of the way that I kind of approach. That whole chapter of moderation and mindful drinking is also really looking at from a perspective of encourage people to take a break from drinking, just so that they have an understanding of what you know, I think that’s the biggest mistake people make when they’re trying to moderate or cut back is they never actually give themselves a period of time, sober away from drinking, and it becomes really hard to recognize those benefits. If you never have a full break from it. So, my recommendation in the book is to commit to at least 30 days of not drinking so that you can, because most of us never learned, right? How to set boundaries, how to have hard conversations, how to socialize, how to say no to a to a drink, right how to go on a date, if we don’t have that break, because we just have this easy button with alcohol that just has all

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  15:29

the limiting beliefs that it will suck. And you never have the actual data or experience to be like, Okay, this part was uncomfortable, but this part was so much better. I also always remember, I interviewed Anna Lemke, who wrote dopamine nation. And she absolutely also she calls it a dopamine fast, but also not consuming alcohol or whatever your drug of choices for 30 days because it takes that long to get your dopamine sort of rebalanced in your system. So that you feel happy and content without alcohol, because otherwise, it’s sort of artificially suppressed, because you’re drinking and you’re spiking it. So, you don’t know how you feel without it.

 

16:21

Exactly. You have no like understanding of your baseline because your baseline has been skewed through alcohol. Yeah, um, so yeah, I totally agree with that. And I think that, then you can, at least to me, it’s like if you can take a prolonged break. And you can learn some of these tools, you can learn how to cope without alcohol, you can learn how to do anything you need to without alcohol, so you’re not dependent on alcohol in any emotional way, then you can have the space to start practicing or experimenting with moderation or some mindful drinking. But you need to really practice that first and develop those skills. Otherwise, most people just get stuck in that, that in between period, right, where they take a break for like a week or two weeks, or they just try to cut back, and they don’t ever get to experience the magic and the positive impacts of sobriety. So of course, if you’ve never experienced that, it’s not going to be on your radar for something like you were saying, Casey of when you realized, you know, at some point you realized the benefits of sobriety outweigh some of the costs that come from it. But if you never get you have any taste of real sobriety, you’re not going to experience any of that.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  17:43

Yeah, and a lot of people say, and I experienced this myself, like recovery kind of ruins you for drinking, and in a positive way. Because once I took a break every time, I felt this overwhelming anxiety every time I got a really bad hangover, every time I felt defensive. Because my husband was like, we talked about this, and I have no recollection of it. Like, I knew it was the alcohol. And I knew it didn’t have to be that way, which I honestly had no idea previously. Yeah,

 

18:17

yeah. And you like, had, right? I mean, like the skills because you had been sober for that year to recognize also, I think the break gives us a chance to realize that alcohol also isn’t really that effective. In doing some of the things that it’s easy, right? People

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  18:35

are like, Oh, it helps me sleep. And you’re like, yikes, sober sleep

 

18:39

is the best. Yes, right, exactly. Like on the surface, it helps you fall asleep, but over time, it is not good quality sleep. And you wouldn’t have that reference point or believe that until you took a break and actually experienced sober sleep when you were saying, well, it is. So, let’s talk about like in the moderation, mindful drinking space. What are if someone’s listening to this, what are some of the exercises in your book that people should consider? Or take note of? You know?

 

19:15

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the things, we’re kind of talking about this, but one of the things I really recommend is, when you’re taking that break, coming up with like a list of, in general, I think costs and benefits lists are really, really helpful. They help us frame things differently than pros and cons, because I think it’s more helpful to look at what are the benefits, I’m getting from something, and I think people can feel weird. And think it’s unhelpful to come up with benefits of drinking, but there are benefits to drinking or we wouldn’t do it. And I think it’s really important to acknowledge those. So, then we can start to replace those and look at them different Really? So, for me what I think a really powerful exercise is thinking of all the reasons that you might drink. What are those benefits that you have? And let’s like investigate those like we were talking about with sleep. Is your sleep like, does alcohol really? Yeah, help you sleep? Like let’s do an experiment, try, you know, try not drinking for 30 days and see if your sleep improves. Does drinking really help you process your emotions? Like, what if we tried some other coping skills to process your emotions while you’re not drinking? And see if that’s more effective? Yeah, well, you’ll be able to have better communication skills with people in your life, when you’re sober, it might feel like you get some liquid courage while you’re drinking. But how many of those conversations go south or they don’t come out the way that you want them to. And really starting to challenge some of those beliefs and replacing them with other skills and other things that you can do. So that if you do decide to start drinking, again, you’re not using it for those things anymore. And you’re just simply using it, you know, because you’re out because, you know, so many people say, I just love to drink because I love the taste. I’m such a, you know, foodie, and I want to pair wine and stuff like that. And it’s like, Okay, if that’s true, let’s talk, you know, we got to do the work to develop your skill set. So that it is truly just about that, because I’m always like, yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  21:30

I considered myself that too. I mean, I went wine tasting on every anniversary and went away to all the air, the fancy areas, and I’m like, and 80% of the buy drinky was via the couch, like with pizza, you know? But I totally agree. And like, I mean, I think it’s, it’s disingenuous to say all of our drinking was bad. And I think that yeah, try. I mean, I know that something 12 Step programs do, like you don’t admit that they’re right. Like, you know, every time I drink, I had problems kind of things. And it’s like, no, there were definitely drinking highlights that were really fun. But, you know, I always think like, if you get to the point where you’re struggling with alcohol, you’ve got to look at the cost benefits. And for me, it was like 80%, lowlights. 20% highlights and the lowlights were decently low, or I wouldn’t have decided that it wasn’t worth it. You know what I mean? Like, waking up on your couch at 3am? Because you passed out like that, so sophisticated. But yeah, that was certainly part of my experience.

 

22:46

Yeah. And I think too, you know, it’s like the also the idea that you have to admit that you’ll die. Oh, you keep drinking with 12 Step programs. And for most people that we’re talking about, like, that’s not true. And that’s like, it’s really hard to it just feels very disingenuous and unhelpful, that we have to convince ourselves of this thing that probably isn’t true. Yeah, we don’t have the evidence to say that believe it’s true.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  23:12

So, you’re like, I mean, I remember that, because I did attend for a little while. And it was like, jails, institutions, or death? And I was like, Yeah, I don’t think that’s true. And let me you know, if you spend all your time debating whether if you drinking, it’s going to be jails, institutions, and death, that doesn’t leave time and space to be like, would I be more present with my kids? Would I experience more joy? Would I experience more peace? If I just didn’t drink, you know?

 

23:46

Exactly. 100%. And that’s where I think coming at it from the positives. And I think that’s the other thing is, I think a lot of times, getting sober is portrayed as this like horrible last resort that people are forced to do, where we’re talking about all the benefits and the magic and how much more amazing your life can be. Not because you would die if you kept drinking, but just because there are amazing benefits to sobriety.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  24:13

Yeah, yeah. And I actually I just right before this podcast, so it’s top of mine, had a coaching session with one of my clients who was on day 57, right, so far enough away that you’re not going through the initial struggles. But also drinking isn’t this far, you know, past memory. And so, she did say, you know, when my husband’s away and I’m alone, like I’m like, am I ever going to, you know, not think about it right? Am I ever going and, you know, at two months from breaking a habit that you’ve had for 20 years, like it takes a little while longer but then we talked about all the things that wouldn’t have happened if she was drinking just in the last two months. And, you know, talked about strengthening her relationship with her husband that she’s closer with her kids and having these little moments with her 12 year old, that she’s remembering conversations out with her husband at dinner and being more creative, where she has this like, fondness where she’s doing creative projects up until midnight after work. And she’s thinking of new business ideas and, you know, saved $700 And not consumed 50 bottles of wine in the last two months, like all of that she wouldn’t know if she was holding on to. Okay, I’m only going to drink on weekends, and I’m only going to have two glasses of wine. You know what I mean?

 

25:45

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that’s a really good example of that.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  25:49

So, what else in your book, because I love your workbook, and you know, I loved the book, not drinking tonight, it’s one of my favorite, because I love that you come at it through both personal experience and as a therapist works with women in this situation. So as people are looking through their book, what are some of the things you want to make sure that they pull out? Yeah,

 

26:17

yeah, um, I mean, one thing that I’m really proud of in the book is there’s actually a quiz about moderation. And the quizzes kind of called like, are you able to moderate or not, and it’s based off of just my professional experience with who is a good candidate for it. And I think it’s really helpful with explaining kind of, you may be able to moderate, but you may not. And there are, you know, there are some things where someone could moderate, but there are also there’s a big space where I’m kind of like you might be able to moderate, but you might spend a lot of time fighting that moderation through staying in that moderation point of view. And I think a lot of people unfortunately, stay there and kind of stay miserable. Because like we’ve talked about, they don’t ever have that fool. You know, it’s kind of when we talk about it, and I talked about it a lot. In my first book of just, you know, how your brain works is a lot of times, especially with a substance like alcohol, that shuts down that decision making part of your brain, that rational part of your brain, it’s really hard to kind of be dipping in and out of a substance that impacts your brain in that way. And it can cause a lot of suffering, I think for people. And, you know, it’s, I think it’s so interesting, where it could actually be easier, and people would have a better life, which sounds so different if they were sober, because moderation can be so hard.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  27:50

Yeah. And it’s exhausting. That was my experience. It was just exhausting. And I kept failing at it. And yet, it was what I wanted more than in the world. And one of the things you teach, and I know in your first book, but also in this workbook is how do you regulate your emotions without alcohol because I know I drank when I wanted my happiness to be even higher. When I was born. I just wanted time to flow more quickly and angry, lonely, all the things resentful, frustrated, insecure, you name it.

 

28:31

Yeah, that’s a big part of the book. There’s a whole chapter on emotional regulation. And I created like an acronym that helps people because one of the biggest questions that I get asked often is, how do I process my emotions? How do I deal with them? I don’t know what that means. I don’t know what that looks like. So, I created an acronym. It’s called nailer. And it walks you through step by step of exactly how to process your emotions. And there’s a worksheet in the workbook called how to process an emotion, which walks you through exactly what to do, which I think is it’s really helpful to just kind of have that structure. So, you know, like the first part of how to process an emotion is noticing how your body feels. Often before we even have words to describe what’s happening or what emotion is happening. Our body has a physical response, you know, our heart rate increases, our palms sweat, we may feel like you know, our throat is closing up, you’re sweating. So, the first step is really just noticing how your how that, you know, it’s physically happening. And often, this is the point to where we may be tempted to like, grab a drink before we even recognize that we’re having an emotion and it’s interesting.

 

A lot of clients I work with, right, they’ll say I don’t even know what happened I just all the sudden was drinking, I don’t even remember thinking about it. Yeah. And you can, what happens sometimes is We condition ourselves to drink in response to these different physiological sensations that are happening in our body.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  30:15

Yeah. And so, you know that, and then there’s a bunch of other steps to process it without turning to alcohol.

 

30:25

Yes. So, once we notice, we then can like, acknowledge that we’re having, you know, a sensation going on, then we can get curious, the AI is like, investigate, get curious about the context of our life, you know, what’s interesting is sometimes you can have, right your heart rate increasing. And it could not be related to an emotion, necessarily, it could be like, you just went for a brisk walk, and you misinterpret what your heart rate is doing. Right? So, it’s, it’s noticing the context of what’s going on in your life. And with that context, then you can move on to the next step. And you can label the emotion. And there’s such cool, interesting research about the power of actually knowing the exact right word for the emotion that you’re feeling. And it’s really interesting, if you think about kids, and when they’re really young, they often only have a couple words to describe how they’re feeling. You know, they may have mad, sad, and happy. And when we only have a few words, it actually really shapes our experience. So, kids often are one of those three, because that’s the language that they have. Yeah, so I have worksheets and examples also on just like, I have a huge like emotion, or a huge, huge emotion bank of words that people can learn about and understand. And it’s cool to also I have examples of other emotions in different languages, because it shows you kind of how you can think of that experience. And you understand how someone could have that emotion, but maybe you never had the word for it. Like, there is a German word that I’m going to butcher how I say it. It’s called shun off Freud or something like that. Pride or no, yes. There you go. There you go. Right. And it’s like the high school and did another go to Germany for a winter semester. So, I was like, Wait a minute. Oh, my God.

 

32:37

Perfect. Right. So that word means it’s like the joy of someone else, like failing or suffering? Yes. Yes. Right. And it’s like a word that you can once you understand that you’re like, I’ve probably felt that way. Before at some point. So that’s really helpful in those worksheets. So yeah, hold

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  33:00

on any question arrived from someone else’s misfortune? Yes. I felt that and it’s like, but you would think that in American words, that would be like, guilt, but not really, you know, exactly. Almost like, Yeah, I’m an asshole. Like, that’s right.

 

33:20

Right. But it doesn’t. Yeah, there isn’t any word that we have that quite fits that exact phrase. So yeah, researchers have kind of proven that the more emotion words you learn, the more specifically you can understand how you feel. And the better than you can regulate your emotions, right? Because if we can identify, I’m not going to say the word again. That right, the joy of watching someone be miserable. You’re going to treat that differently than just guilt. Yeah, that you have. Right? Yeah, that’s what’s so interesting. So then, yeah, so the L in a nailer is labeling. And then the ER is like, explore and release. And that’s where we kind of get back into our body. Think of coping skills that we can do explore if this is a common pattern that happens to us often do, we often feel this way, you know, if you’re noticing you feel a lot of guilt, there may be some things that you want to work on or change in your life. And once you kind of explore, it’s, sometimes it’s really helpful to just actually release that emotion, whether that’s physically through going for a walk through listening to music, through getting into your body in some capacity is really, really helpful for kind of getting out of your head and working through that physiological tension that’s come up. So, I have different examples of kind of how to work through each step and then you can kind of get into the process of repeating it so that you just kind of do it automatically.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  34:59

Yeah, Yeah. And I know that, you know, in the beginning, do people go through the question of like, Is this really a problem? Does my alcohol use actually a problem? Or in their own mind? am I focusing on this for the wrong reasons? Or is this not a big deal? Everyone I know drinks, like, how do you help people process that?

 

35:26

Yeah, so the first chapter of the book actually kind of addresses all of this. And that’s where like, maybe this chapter wouldn’t apply for people, if they obviously have been in recovery, and they’re sober for a while they know. But there’s a lot of exercises that help someone understand what some of the smaller consequences of drinking might be. So, it’s kind of divided into different categories of thinking about, you know, what was your first drink? Like? What was your best drink? What was your worst? What are some of the consequences, you know, physically, emotionally, your family, your friends, your work? And I give examples, too, because I think, right, we just think about jail and institutions. And death is like the consequences. And we forget the ones like, I’m not present for my kids, or I keep getting into dumb arguments with my spouse, or I’m hungover at work, and I’m not performing where I want to be. And those are real consequences, too. So, the workbook kind of walks people through unpacking all of those different consequences. And then there’s also a timeline worksheet that helps people understand and like I have a sample and then you know, one that they can fill in themselves. So, they can also look at their pattern over time, I think patterns are so important and understanding how your drinking behavior has changed, and also how it relates to things in your life, like having kids getting married, you know, switching careers, moving trauma, all of these things. If you can look at it as one pattern, you can get more understanding into why you drink.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  37:12

Yeah, I think that’s so important, because so many people were like, it wasn’t always like this. And you know, when I’m talking to them, I’m like, yeah, absolutely. It wasn’t, but how long ago was it? That day, what you know, and then, well, I used to have two glasses of wine twice a week, and then suddenly, it’s every night, and then suddenly, it’s a bottle. And you know what I mean? Or, you know, I’m trying to not drink every night, and I’m irritated. But it’s also this. I mean, I was oblivious for a very long time. I literally thought that waking up at 3am was related to work stress and insomnia. Like, I actually did not know, at all that was related to drinking, you know?

 

38:05

Yeah, it’s, it’s, I mean, the denial, right is like thick. Yeah, I think that’s where it’s really important. Right? If you looked at the whole context, yeah, maybe there would have been a way for you to see that.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  38:19

I mean, obviously, I knew it was. But not, not the waking up yet. Or not anxiety, I thought the anxiety was related to work, and motherhood, and not at all related to alcohol causing more I thought it was helping. So yeah, you know, you definitely go through the phase of being genuinely oblivious. And I would say that anyone listening to this podcast is past that phase. You know, they have a little bit of Yeah, it’s actually good, because then information on what you are contributing to the way you feel and what you’re not contributing to the way you feel.

 

39:05

When and how many of those problems could be solved? If you stop drinking?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  39:09

Yeah, yeah. And the only way to know I mean, I just had, like I said before, so many limiting beliefs, and fears and assumptions about life without alcohol on every single level, from having fun to relationships to boredom, to how would I take care of myself? How would I deal with these feelings that I had? And part of your work in the workbook is redefining what authentic self-care looks like? And can you tell me more about that? Yeah, absolutely.

 

39:45

I think that you know that the self-care chapter is actually called alcohol isn’t self-care. And I talk a lot about just some of the misconceptions with self-care. And this idea, I think, I think people believe That self-care is treating yourself. And that’s really not what self-care as the definition was created for it is, you know, I have nothing against treating yourself, I think that that’s like an important thing we should live our lives and enjoy them. But true self care is going to nourish you. The next day, if we’re looking at filling our cup, it’s not something that temporarily fills your cup and then leaves you more drained. It’s not something that feels good in the moment temporarily, and then makes you feel worse, which is unfortunately, what alcohol does, you know? Yeah. And that’s where I think it’s really looking at sometimes self-care is doing something we don’t want to do. You know, sometimes self-care is like, going to the dentist, sometimes self-care is saying no, when it would be way easier to say yes, because we need to protect our time, and our energy. And I think, I think the misconception comes because people just want to classify self-care as black and white. It’s like, something that you do for yourself. But it’s much more complicated than that. And the workbook has different worksheets that will help people understand, you know, I have a whole worksheet that’s called is this really self-care, where you kind of chart something that you feel like is self-care? And I walk you through questions like, How do you feel before, during and after? How do you feel, you know, the next day after this has happened? Like, what is your energy? Like? Does this feel sustainable? All of those kinds of questions, to really help someone understand what self-care is for them? Because the tricky part is it. It looks different for everyone, and it’s going to look different depending on your life and the circumstances of your life.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  41:57

Yeah. And I’m curious for you, what does authentic self-care look like for you?

 

42:04

Well, it definitely changes obviously, depending on what’s going on in my life. But for me, a lot of times self-care looks like getting back into my body in some capacity. So, it changes depending on what I need. You know, sometimes that might look like a yoga class. Sometimes all I have is like 10 minutes to do some mindful stretching. At the end of the day, sometimes it’s going for a run, sometimes it’s getting a massage. But a core piece for me, is often getting into my body in some capacity. A lot of my life, my job is very, you know, verbal, mental.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:45

Speaking.

 

42:46

So, getting back into my body and processing things is the most important thing that I do for myself.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  42:54

Yeah, yeah, that’s great. You talk about in the book, navigating sober socializing, dating, and sex. And obviously, I’ve been married for 20 years. So, I don’t have a ton of sober dating experience. So, will you talk about that? Because I feel like that’s an area where sometimes this podcast is lacking?

 

43:20

Sure, absolutely. So yeah, so I have a chapter on each in the book, and they’re spread out. And I also cover in kind of like dating and romantic relationships. Also, which I’m sure you have some experience on is, you know how to tell your partner that you’re going to take a break from drinking, what do you do if they aren’t supportive, how to navigate all of that. But in terms of dating, you know, I think that people have this expectation. And this desire to make sober life really, in general, as easy, and simple and the same as their life when they were drinking, and they just want swaps of everything. And I think that’s the biggest challenge is there isn’t going to be just a swap, really, with sober dating, right, you are going to have to navigate how to go on a date and not drink, you’re going to have to navigate how to tell someone, you’re going to have to decide whether you tell them if you’re like online dating, right, whether you tell them before you meet up with them, or whether you want to tell them afterwards. So, I have different tips based on where you are in that journey. But the biggest kind of tip I have is I think that people get really, really concerned about what other people think of them, which is completely understandable. I was sober I had to deal you know, I got sober when I was 24 before I was married, so I definitely dealt with all of this. And I think the best thing to remember is it’s going to be different because yes, some people won’t be interested.

 

But the beauty of sober dating is that you will actually if you show up as your authentic self, and you’re honest about what you want, you are so much more likely to find a really great partner for you. Because you are not going to have all the distractions, you’re not going to so many people, right? Like, they go on a first date, or even maybe two dates. And they have no idea whether they actually have a connection with someone, because they were like drunk or tipsy and they can’t really remember, was it? Do we actually have a lot of things in common? Did I actually have fun? Or was I just having a fun night? At the bar? So, the stakes are a little higher and more difficult, for sure. But it will get you closer to what you want, as long as you’re willing to kind of do the work with that. Yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  45:52

And I think I mean, I found that sober day being even with my husband was something I had to think through that I had to get way more creative, because I was a drinker because I loved wine. So much of our dating, especially with little kids, when we get a babysitter, and was going from restaurant to restaurant to restaurant, we would sit at the bar and do like an app and drink curl, you know, we would hit like, that was our jam. And once I stopped drinking, I needed to sit there and be like, Okay, do we go for a hike? Do we go to a coffee shop and listen to live music? You know, part of me with like, what’s, quote unquote safe for me where I won’t desperately want to drink and feel deprived in super early sobriety. So, I’d like to go to a Japanese restaurant for sushi, because I wasn’t a Saki girl. And yeah, walk around a bookstore with him and go to a movie, you know. So yeah, it takes a little thought. But it’s also more exciting, you know?

 

47:03

Yep. And that’s exactly how I would describe it is people get stuck because they want to just replicate the same experience. And they just, it’s easier to just go out to a bar, right? It’s easier to just, if you’re having friends over just everyone come over and we’ll just like drink together. It takes planning and thinking about to say let’s play a board game, or let’s go bowling or let’s go to uh, you know, let’s go get coffee or whatever it takes, take swing dance lesson. Yeah, something, you know.

 

47:32

Right? Right. So, I think it’s the it is higher energy input, but you also get more out of it. Like you’re going to have deeper conversations, better memories, a deeper relationship with friends or who you’re dating, but it is more work upfront. I also think it’s like, I really liked what you said about you have to kind of figure out what your new thing is, you know, I’ve really realized that life music makes a huge, huge difference. For me having something to do, even if it’s like playing pool or something makes a big difference for me compared to just sitting somewhere. Or going to a place that has like really cool ambiance where I can, like people watch, I’m much more interested in. But most of us never have taken this time to figure out why we like doing what we’re doing. Because alcohol just, you know, makes everything a little bit more interesting.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  48:27

Yeah. And in terms of getting that like, high that like all those emotions, like live music, does that for you? Yes, singing does that for you. Like, I just started taking guitar lessons again, for the fall, I live that 14 years with my same teacher I stopped. You know, basically, I think I was nine. It was a week before I had my son. I was like, so huge. The last time I took a good car lesson for with from him. And now you know, we’re coming back. And he’s got three kids, and I’ve got two kids, and we’re on Zoom. And it’s just that high of singing and playing and you know, it’s, it takes creativity to find what that is. But it is so good. When you get the all the all the fields in society.

 

49:19

And I think too, it’s like, right, like when you’re drinking and you’re at a place where they’re playing life music, you don’t experience that like magic and presence in the same way. Yeah. So, it’s hard to imagine going

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  49:31

to the bathroom or to get another drink 90% of the time. A lot. Right. So, you’re not you don’t even when we say how magical life music is. You know, if you’re someone who hasn’t taken a break from drinking and done this, you may not you might be like, oh life music isn’t for me. And I think that’s where it’s remembering to you may have to try things over and you may have a totally different experience and some of it will be great and some of it won’t be what She did like I had to think about for my husband’s birthday. Like, what are we going to do? Like literally what can we do that’s interesting and different, and he wouldn’t expect. And we went paragliding. And that was oh, that’s so cool. You know, it was very cool. And not that you can do that all the time or, you know, right. We used to go to a hotel and go to bars and get drunk. And the price was somewhat similar, you know?

 

Yeah. Yeah. About creating a relapse prevention plan. And I know, that’s a really big deal for people who get a certain number of days are starting to feel better, maybe they get two months, four months, and then shit happens, right? Yeah. So, tell me what goes into that, or what you recommend people work through.

 

50:53

I think a huge part of that is understanding and identifying your triggers. And really thinking back to you know, I’ve worksheets that help you unpack your previous relapses, and what happened and what the situation was, you know, what was going on for you. And then I have a whole plan on helping someone identify triggers, and then coming up with a plan, like, if I feel this way, this is what I’m going to do. Or if I experience, you know, my boss, doing this, to me, this is how I’m going to handle it really coming up with a plan of how you will approach different scenarios that are triggering for you, I think is so important, even if you don’t do the exact same thing in the moment when it happens. Doing that mental exercise, because I think one of the biggest barriers, I see a lot with clients is once they’re doing well, they don’t want to think about their past relapses. Yeah, they just kind of right like want to keep writing how they’re feeling. They get maybe like a little bit of Magical Thinking where they’re just like, I’m never going to relapse ever again. So, it’s really important to be honest, and be realistic with yourself and come up with this plan. Even if you’re feeling great. Because this is like a, you know, this is something that you do every day you choose not to drink, or don’t drink. And there is always like a moment where you could go back, it’s everywhere. So, I think it’s really important to even if it’s uncomfortable, to go through that plan, and also to really like unpack some of those relapse episodes and understand what may have happened because most of us, don’t ever think about it that much. We’re just like, I relapsed. I’m horrible, you know, and we’re in like, the guilt and the shame, and we don’t look at it from a clearer perspective.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  52:55

Yeah, yeah. And you can look back at, you know, certainly, a lot of the women I talked to who’ve had a period of sobriety and then drink again, I mean, a lot of times, it’s a vacation, or it’s a holiday, it’s like, oh, I’ll just drink during this one week vacation, and then start again, and it’s nowhere near that simple. It’s really hard to stop drinking and get sobriety afterwards. Other times, you know, you’re drinking at someone, you’re angry, you’re in Yeah, fuck you. Fuck this, whatever, situation. I think that, you know, you talked about that sort of Bank of emotions, like all those different words. And you know, when you want to drink, identifying exactly why you want to drink, like, what is the emotion you’re feeling? Because then you can try to solve for it in a different way, as opposed to just being like, a fucking want to drink. You know?

 

53:58

100% exactly where you can identify how you’re feeling and then understand you have other coping skills.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  54:05

You can use. Yeah, and it also like, you can go to your book, and, and yeah, you know, be like shit, you know, what’s the other coping skills?

 

54:15

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I also have a really cool exercise that talks about recovery as like a bank account. And if you think about, this was something that really, really helped me when I got sober was, if you think about you make deposits into your recovery to strengthen it. And then there are things that are withdrawals, and not everything that’s a withdrawal is a choice, right? Like, your mother could get sick. That would be a big stressful event that happened in your life, that probably would make your you know, would shake your recovery a little bit, but it’s not something you chose, or you did, so some of them aren’t, you can’t prepare for all of them. But in general, the idea of key Keeping more deposits coming in, then there are withdrawals so that you can stay like above your balance, so to speak. And it also can help you plan going forward. Like, if you have a vacation that’s coming up or a wedding, that is with your family and your there’s going to be a lot of alcohol there and you’re anticipating it being stressful. Before you go really thinking about, you know, who can I connect with this week, I’m going to take really good care of myself, like, emotionally and physically, I’m going to look at my triggers, I’m going to make as many kinds of deposits to strengthen myself before I enter this stressful situation.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  55:40

Yeah, yeah, no, that makes complete sense. And when you say, what to do, when you’re feeling stuck in recovery, you work with a lot of women, obviously, who are stopping drinking, have stopped drinking, or in some version of seeking recovery, what are the things that you find women feel stuck in that process?

 

56:08

I think a lot of times it comes from this place of they’ve stopped drinking, but they haven’t necessarily done that deeper work, to create a life that they love and create a life that’s in alignment with their values. So, I talk a lot in my book in the self-care chapter about values and how to identify them and create a life that feels in alignment with what you want, and what your values are. Because most often when we’re stuck, we’ve just done the thing on paper, right? We’ve like, put down the drink. But maybe we’re not dating, we don’t feel like we have nourishing friendships, we don’t feel like we can be ourselves around certain people. We’re not fully showing up for our life. We’ve just removed alcohol. And I think that’s really, and we’ve been talking about this. That’s really the key to like long term fulfilling, sobriety is fully participating in creating and showing up for your life. Not drinking is just the start.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  57:09

Yeah. Yes. So, in terms of building a sober life, you love it. It’s much deeper than just going to live music, and which is yeah, for fun, or taking an art class or having more time to yourself to read novels or go hiking, it’s really identifying what your values are, and sort of aligning your life with those. Is that right?

 

57:39

Exactly, yeah, because you know, it’s going to look different for everyone. For some people, they really value their family, and they’re going to want to be around their family and make sure they’re spending quality time with their family. For some people. It might be their career, both, you know, and they want to make sure that their job is fulfilling. And often when we stopped drinking, you know, the veil kind of gets lifted on some of the things that we were doing, because alcohol can make a life that we don’t, we’re not aligned with. Yeah, work for us, it kind of like, allows us to fit a square peg into a round hole. And when you stop drinking, it’s not going to work anymore. Yeah. And often people just go back to drinking. But the real way to live this fulfilling life is to actually be like, Okay, I’ve been living this life, that doesn’t actually work. For me, this is a wake up call, what am I going to do now, to make different choices so that I am aligned, so that I do feel like I can show up fully in this life?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  58:41

I love that. And when you said that, that’s like, exactly what happened to me. I mean, I was a director at a fortune 500 company, and had done that for 20 years and had all these things that made it hard to change, and fears I had about changing about, you know, health insurance and income and kids and mortgages and ego and what would people think, and, you know, it was actually my therapist who helped me work through that and figure out you know, what my values were in the fact that I love connection and integrity and travel and beauty and my family. And those were not necessarily connected to traveling for business. So, we get out of every month and being away from my family and you know, integrity wise doing a lot of things that were based on the profit and loss margin of the company, but not in any way around. You know, necessarily integrity or connection. And so, you know, I made a huge shift once I stopped drinking from corporate director to freaking life. Coach for a variety, but it’s something that brings me so much more satisfaction and happiness. And, you know, when you go to work every day and you spend, you know, 40 to 50 hours a week doing something that is a square peg in a round hole. That’s, that’s tough, you know? Yeah.

 

1:00:19

And it’s really hard to stay sober. Yeah, through that.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:24

If everything’s like death of 1000 cuts, you know?

 

1:00:28

Exactly. Yeah, absolutely.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:00:31

So, if women are reexamining their relationship with alcohol, what’s the first step?

 

1:00:40

I think it, it’s in that step? It’s looking at? I mean, I think, I think it depends on whether they’re willing to stop drinking right now, not everyone is, I think that a lot of times, we can say that the first step has to be that someone stops drinking. And there is a lot of work you can do before you totally stop, where you learn some coping skills, you learn how to work through some emotions, you, you know, do some different things to kind of buffer, and fill those gaps. But in general, one of my recommendations is to do that con, or that costs and payoffs list and really start looking at is this working for you? What are you getting out of this? And what is it costing you? And then we can start to look at what changes you might be willing to make?

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:01:34

Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the good things that looking at the list of like, what is it that you think alcohol does for you? Or what does it legitimately do for you? Those are clues of other things you need in your life that can reach those same goals.

 

1:01:54

100% Exactly. Yeah.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  1:01:57

Thank you so much. I love having you on I learned so much every time you’re on. So, I am really excited to both use the workbook in my work as a coach, and you know, also to share it with my clients and everyone listening to this podcast.

 

1:02:14

Thank you so much for having me, Casey, it was great to talk to you.