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drinking, alcohol, divorce, toxic coparenting, co-parenting, co-parent, course, anger, peace, sobriety, trauma, people pleasing, stop drinking, stopped drinking, sober, sober curious, deeper work, why we drink, helps, heal, survive, surviving, cravings, not drinking, alcohol-free, sobriety starter kit, community, membership, connection, life changing, moderate, coping skills, coping mechanism, women, manage anxiety, hard times, relationship with yourself, toxic anger, story, shift, do whatever you can to create peace for yourself in the moment, consequences, antidepressants, anti-anxiety meds, resonate, vulnerable, brave, truth, rebuilding, life, mixed emotions, early motherhood, kids, postpartum depression, recovery, marriage, married, husband, patriarchy, wife, socialize, spouse, mom, change, without alcohol, mental health, addiction, quit drinking, quitting drinking, anxiety, setting a boundary, boundaries, remove the alcohol, guilt, shame, addictive behaviors, patterns, care, forcing the rock bottom, gaslighting, therapy, emotional sobriety, healthier practice, healing, journey, women’s mental health, alcohol abuse, recovery, 12 step program, AA, Al-Anon, support, therapy, take a break from alcohol, sober coach

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Scott Pinyard

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hey there. Welcome back to the podcast. Today we are diving into the topic of

divorce toxic co-parenting, anger and alcohol.

 

And my guest today is Scott Pinyard. If you feel like divorce or co-parenting could drive you to drink, you’re not alone. For so many people, separation brings up anger and resentment plus stress and alcohol can feel like your go-to coping tool, but it doesn’t have to be this way.

 

[00:02:00]

So, Scott is the former head coach at this Naked Mind who stopped drinking 8 years ago, and he has helped thousands of people change their relationship with alcohol.

He also helps people find peace and freedom wherever they’re stuck, whether it’s with alcohol, toxic co-parenting, or navigating divorce without losing yourself in the process. He’s been through it himself. He got divorced when his daughter was a toddler and then had 16 more years of co-parenting to figure out.

 

So, Scott knows firsthand how easy it is to get triggered and how powerful it can be to shift your perspective, take back control of your own emotions, and stop letting other people’s behavior dictate your piece. So Scott, welcome.

Thank you. That was a great intro. I sound amazing. You’re amazing.

[00:03:00]

No, I’ve heard about you from other coaches and I mentioned that I get off at, I get asked pretty often if I know any coaches who work with men because I work with women and I asked about who was fantastic in a group and your name came up.

So, that’s how we got introduced originally.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. I’m, I’m excited to be here and to talk about all of this. Although, should I admit I’m an expert on toxic anger?

 

Oh, yes. You absolutely should. Yeah, no, I mean, tell me about that. To start.

Well, yeah, I mean, when it comes to the, the co-parenting thing, so, you know, like I, I do, I have a lot of different areas that I coach in. But when it comes to the co-parenting side of it, it is that toxic, corrosive anger that I spend a lot of time with. You know, I, I have a lot of people who come to me and they want to know, like, Scott, how do I navigate this co-parenting thing? And 9 times out of 10, what they mean is, how do I change.

 

This other person so that we don’t fight as much. And I’ll just rip off the band aid for anyone listening to this, none of my work is about that.

[00:04:00]

And it, and it never is, and it is actually about facing that toxic anger because I had a lot of it too, you know, and I, I had to. I spent a lot of time wishing my ex would be different, but it didn’t work out that way.

 

And I eventually got to a point where I realized like, if I’m going to be living, you know, with this person and cooperating and doing, doing the best possible job of co-parenting, you know, for the next 16 years, then I better learn how to deal. And so, that started sort of a, personal development journey.

 

And it was walking into that toxic anger and understanding where it came from and why I was feeling that way. And even though it’s kind of gross and, and it doesn’t feel good it was doing that work and changing the way I think. Changed the way I felt, and then the entire process of co-parenting felt different.

 

And of course, like alcohol was a huge component of it for me. Which is why I, I coach on both. I mean, I have a, I have a lot of clients who are very solely focused on alcohol, but I also have a lot of clients who we kind of do both with.

 

[00:05:00]

So anger is I don’t know, anger is no fun. I wanted to have you on to talk about this because I usually do that when some of my clients and the women I work with are struggling or going through something where I don’t have an area of expertise.

 

Yeah. And I’ve been married for, gosh, almost 23 years.

Congrats. That’s awesome.

And a bunch of my clients are going through really toxic divorces.

 

Mm-hmm. And including when the kids seem to be used as pawns. You know, someone’s trying to turn the kids against somebody, and it is such a trigger to drink and such a hindrance to moving on with your life and can absorb you in so much.

Not only anger, but feeling like a victim and worrying that the other person is moving on. And why are they happier than you are in just all the different pieces of it? And forget about any financial shit, right, where you got the short end of the stick.

[00:06:00]

So, let’s talk about that. Like you’ve said, co-parenting can suck, but it doesn’t have to, so I’d love to hear what that means, but also because you were in sort of a anger, toxic, difficult relationship, and you work with people going through that, if someone’s listening to this and is in in that position. mm-hmm. What can they do?

 

Well, I mean a whole, there’s a, there’s a whole host of things, but you know, let me comment first on the, the co-parenting can suck, but it doesn’t have to. I mean, when, when, one of the reasons I say that is when I think back to my childhood, like my parents are still married, but I had a lot of friends whose parents were not married, and there was just a lot of bullshit that I used to hear from my friends about like, mom said this and then Dad did that.

 

[00:07:00]

Or, you know, like, like the kids being used as pawns is one of them, but also just like. I don’t know, just the fact that like I had a friend in college and her mother and her father could not be in the same room at graduation, so she had to have two different graduation dinners, and it was just like. I, it just see my response to that is basically like, that really sucks.

And, you know, when I was going through the process of getting divorced one of the things I realized is I really don’t want that. Like, I don’t want that for my daughter. Like it’s not my daughter’s fault that my ex and I don’t get along that, that we had to, we had to change the arrangement we had because life.

 

And there was no way that I was going to let that have the sort of impact that I saw it have on my friends. And so, that’s where I talk about co-parenting can suck because I’ve seen it all around. The doesn’t have to part. That has to do with us and how we see things.

[00:08:00]

So, one of the, one of the main components to what I do with the modern co-parent course is I, I help people with what I call story, right. Story is the, the way we see the world and the stories that we have about our ex, about the fact that we’re divorced about ourselves, about the world. I mean, the stories we have about everything have such a massive impact. On the thoughts we have and the stuff we do and the way we act.

 

And so, a huge part of the modern co-parent course is sort of break understanding those stories, breaking those down, and shifting those stories to something that feels better, you know, ultimately. My goal is to give people the tools to work with this stuff so that they can continue to do it long term.

 

In terms of like right now, like what is the right now thing? I, I would say the biggest thing, and this comes up a lot in discovery calls with people, they ask me this question, is do whatever you can to create peace for yourself in the moment. So, hands down the concern that everyone has is, the children, right?

[00:09:00]

Like, what are the kids going through? And with all the upheaval and all the craziness, any semblance of peace, any semblance of a soft, comfortable place to land is going to feel really, really good for them. And so, I’ve found that like really often people can do that, right? People going through this can be like, all right, how do I make my kids more comfortable?

How do I make myself more comfortable? Most kids, like I was talking to a client not long ago and she’s in the middle of a very difficult divorce, and. She had a game night with her kids. I think they played Uno, like sat on the living room floor and played Uno. And when the night was over, she sent me a text and she’s like, I really needed that.

Like, I really needed just to like let go. And so, that’s the piece of advice I give people that like, if it’s just for an evening, an afternoon, like whatever it is. Find a way to find some peace for yourself and your kids will feel that too. And then, all of you will be able to take a breath.

And that might not last forever, right? It might just be that afternoon, but holy cow, does that make a difference?

[00:10:00]

Hmm. What if you, you know, have an interaction with your ex and are, are super triggered and just angry and resentful and feel like it’s unfair and, you know, feel that like I fucking hate them or whatever it is.

 

Yeah. I mean, so there’s a few different ways that we talk about this, right? So, from the story standpoint, that’s sort of like, I don’t know, call it more theoretical sort of higher level thing that we kind of have to figure out and, and, and work on ourselves. In the moment, when I talk to people who are like going through it, there’s a few things that like, we’ll, we’ll discuss in their coaching and none of these stuff are, or will be a surprise to anyone listening, but it’s stuff we forget, right?

It is like, what are you doing to take care of yourself? Exercise is a big one. Not for, I mean, yes for health, blah, blah, blah, but for burning off that anger.

[00:11:00]

Yeah, that was like one of the, the big things. And then, for a lot of people that I work with, alcohol is either part of the equation right now or used to be part of it.

 

And so, we, we kind of talk about that as well, but it is 90% for the acute stuff, it is 90% finding a way to burn off some of that energy because it’s totally normal to feel that way. Like again, it’s, I always make this joke like it’s really amazing, but every single person I work with got divorced from an asshole, right?

Like, ’cause everyone’s mad. But learning how to kind of burn that off and channel that for yourself is one of the first things you can do. And sometimes that includes walking into it, right? Sometimes that includes getting really mad and going to a kickboxing class or going for a run, right?

Sometimes that includes allowing it to hit you so that you can process it. And so much of my coaching, because you know, as you know, like we use alcohol to hide from things. So much of my coaching is helping people with tactics, but also just get the experience of letting this stuff hit them.

[00:12:00]

Yeah. Letting themselves get super angry and learning how to process it, which is just, it’s a huge part of the process. Yeah. And I, I think that’s fantastic. I mean, I always think that in the same way that people, you know, possibly your mom or your best friend or your spouse is not the right person to help you walk through getting away from drinking or your relationship with alcohol if they haven’t gone through it as well.

 

Yeah. And also they are too close to the situation. It is so helpful for people to talk to someone who has been through what they’ve been through, and you know. I can imagine that people working with you are like, okay, you’ve been there, you get it. You felt what I felt and have moved through the other side, and that’s really helpful.

[00:13:00]

As opposed to feeling like you’re talking to someone who just doesn’t understand or has no concept. Yeah, I mean, they mean, well, you know, like my wife is a good example of this. Like she hasn’t struggled with this and so she wants to be supportive, but like she’ll be the first one to tell you that, you know, whatever it’s been 8 years ago when I said I’m done drinking that, you know, out loud.

She’s like, oh, good for you. But internally, she’s like, okay buddy. Like, I’ve heard this before. Yeah. And that is a fully understandable response from someone who hasn’t dealt with it. That’s why, you know, the majority of my work, my coaching is on alcohol. And then, like I said, co-parenting comes in quite a bit, but majority of my clients are purely for alcohol.

 

And I regularly have, I offer to have a chat with their support system, right?

 

[00:14:00]

So, if that’s a partner or you know, a friend or I’ve talked to roommates, I’ve talked to moms, you know, not, not to convince them of anything, not to like, give them any knowledge or be like, I’m an expert and you should know this, but just to kind of ask them like what they see and talk about from a perspective of someone who’s been through it, like what’s happening, like what the science is like, what is their loved one going through?

Why does it seem like they lie? Like why, what is this? And I think oftentimes having a third party explain, you know, to the extent that I can, which there’s no way to perfectly do this, but to be able to explain like, here’s what’s happening, here’s what your loved one’s experience is that very often I, I’ll put it this way, it provides more perspective, you know, it doesn’t like fix those things, but at least it gets them to think about it a little bit differently.

Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. That’s really helpful. So when you were going through this, it sounds like you went through the divorce, the toxic co-parenting, at least the beginning of it while you were still drinking.

 

[00:15:00]

Do you think that contributed to you drinking more, just the drinking stopped you from being able to move through those emotions or situation?

 

Like how did that play out for you? 1000% it contributed and I, I think. So what happens with alcohol right? Is like problems, issues come up for them and then we run away from those issues, right? ’cause the emotions seem like so much, and everything I’m saying is like a perfectly normal rational response of, of a fully functioning brain.

Like this is, this is just what we do. In the same way that if you. Touch a hot stove, your brain automatically pulls your hand back. It’s the same thing, right? Oh man, I have this horrible situation that feels like shit. I’m going to do something to not feel like shit. The problem with that. Is that obviously if we don’t allow ourselves to face it, we don’t allow ourselves to go through the emotions, and that doesn’t allow us to then solve whatever the issues are that are behind them.

[00:16:00]

And so, for a while, at first, like I, I really struggled. I struggled because I, I wouldn’t allow myself to, to kind of process things. I wouldn’t allow the stories to change. I wouldn’t allow, it’s not that I didn’t accept it, like clearly I did, like I moved on, I got remarried, I had another kid. It’s like my life moved on.

But there was a part of me that was still holding onto that anger and resentment. And I think a big part of that was because I was drinking alcohol. And so, I started to explore that. Prior to my quitting drinking, I knew there was a problem and I knew what the problem was. I knew it was the, all the scotch I was drinking but I didn’t want it to be.

 

So I went on this huge self-improvement kick where like I tried to fix all these other parts of my life, right? And meanwhile this little voice in the back of my head was like, Hey dude, it’s the booze. One of the things I did during that is I really tried to reach out and connect with my ex as a human.

[00:17:00]

Now anyone might be listening to this. You might have just thrown up a little bit for me saying that, and I totally understand. Like I felt the same way too. But what I started to realize was that, you know, every time I got a text message from my ex, or a phone call or we had to see each other at a, you know, school concert or something, I would just find myself getting so upset and like I realized that, you know, I used to like this person.

There were things we had in common. We both are big fans of music, and so as part of my self-improvement sort of journey, I decided like, Hey, let’s get together and have coffee. And my goal in having coffee was, yes, let’s touch base. We have to talk about things with our daughter, but like, then let’s talk about other parts of our lives, concerts we’ve been to that we’ve liked, you know, new albums, movies, whatever.

[00:18:00]

With the hope that, like those conversations sort of revitalize some, you know, obviously non-romantic, just like good feelings about the other person. And it was interesting because it worked, you know, I started to, I started to feel a little bit better, but then I also started to realize that like I still had sort of like a hair trigger on some issues.

And that’s where some of this deeper work came in. Mm-hmm. And was your ex open to that? Well, I didn’t, so you know, everything I do in modern co-parent and everything I did in my own journey was just for me. So like, I didn’t say, Hey, let’s have coffee together so we can be friends. That’s not what I did, you know?

I was like, Hey, let’s get together and have coffee. And like the conversation started about. Our daughter. And then just kind of like, I, I kind of like pushed it a little bit and just let it flow in that other direction. And, you know, one of the things in, in modern co-parent, like, I don’t ask my clients to do that because I know for a lot of people that’s, that’s too much.

[00:19:00]

And the reason I bring up the story though, is it, for me, really, it really showed me that like, changing the way I think about it really changed the experience of co-parenting. And so through doing that I was like, okay, maybe I can explore some of this anger a little bit more. Like maybe I can explore some of these other emotions.

 

It just gave me a fuller picture. I was starting to view my ex as like a fallible person just like me, you know, as opposed to that nasty person over there, you know, like or whatever it is that we all call our exes, you know?

Yeah. Okay. When you were talking. It was really interesting ’cause three different things kind of came up for me, that I wanted to dive into.

The first one was when you were talking about before you stopped drinking, wanting it to be anything except. You know, you’re drinking. And I went through that too. I mean, the whole like, let me improve everything else in my life. Yes. I mean, I would go to therapy and talk about everything except my drinking.

 

[00:20:00]

I would talk about, mm-hmm. My boss and my marriage and my kids and my anxiety and I’m waking up at 3:00 AM and you know, and all the things when they ask how much you drink, I was like, eh. Couple drinks, couple times a week. I mean, I was a bottle of wine, a night drinker that was Oh yeah. Yeah. So far from the truth, but then my, you know, therapist had no idea and so would prescribe freaking Ambien to sleep through the night.

Oh boy. Which, when you’re drinking a bottle of wine each night is not good. Super dangerous. But I mean, I remember sitting there and like, why am I so stressed? Why am I so unhappy? Why am I angry? And be like, okay, I need a vacation. I need to go to therapy. I need to run a 10 k. I need a consistent meditation and yoga practice.

Like, what else can I do to fix this thing? Not stop drinking.

[00:21:00]

And you know, at the end of the day I figured out, yeah, I got to stop drinking first. Which was the last thing I wanted to do. And I started out just being like, I’m going to stop for a hundred days and see what happens. Like that is all I can commit to.

And you know, lo and behold, after a hundred days, I was a lot more happy and felt more present and felt more emotionally stable and was less angry and depressed and all the things, but mm-hmm. I also had support and was, was doing all the things as I moved through it. Otherwise, I, when I tried to do it alone, I couldn’t get past day 4.

 

Literally. Yeah. Could not, despite my best efforts. The other thing you were talking about, which I think is so true, and I tell people about this when they stop drinking because everybody thinks like, I’ll stop drinking when my husband’s less of a dick, when my That’s right. Boss is better when I’m less stressed, when my kids are older.

[00:22:00]

And it’s like when you change every relationship in your life changes. Mm-hmm. By definition and the only one you really control is yourself. And I feel like that’s a lot of what you are saying. So, I want to get your thoughts on that. But the last thing before I forget, yeah. Is what I’ve seen a lot is that when someone drinks a lot, their partner.

Mother, whoever can use that to gaslight them. Yes. Or to make them the problem in every situation or to use it against them. Especially like I was a blackout drinker, so I didn’t remember a lot of stuff. Mm-hmm. And it’s incredible how disempowering it is and how difficult it is to. Make your argument or feel that you are justified or whatever it is when you’re checking out.

 

So yeah, that was a lot, but I wanted to get your thoughts on some of those. Sure.

[00:23:00]

Yeah, and no, I appreciate, ’cause I also go all over the place when I talk, so this is good. Like sparking stuff. So yeah, in terms of like doing everything else, I literally tried everything I possibly could. I remember I would get up.

At like four 30 in the morning to go to the gym to lift weights with like a pounding headache. Oh, I did 5:00 AM bootcamps, burpees with a bottle of wine in your belly at a headache. It’s the worst, the worst thing ever. But you’re like, I’m going to the gym at 4:00 AM therefore, there’s nothing to see here.

I have no problem. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s, I think it’s, I think it’s natural just with the way that alcohol used to sort of, sort of. Takes over our thinking and the way it makes us feel. I think it’s only natural that like we try to do everything else. I totally understand that. You know, I mean it’s similar actually for divorce, right?

You try to fix everything else, but if there’s like a foundational issue, you know, it doesn’t matter how much support you put in there, like eventually that whole thing’s going to fall down.

 

[00:24:00]

And it is so true  that quitting drinking like makes those other changes so much easier. And I found that absolutely to be the case for me.

You know? Certainly like working out got a lot easier ’cause I was actually sleeping and I didn’t have that pounding headache. And yeah, like it does absolutely change every relationship in your life. And this is part of where, and in my work, in the intersection of relationships and drinking and particularly co-parenting and drinking comes in because I have a lot of clients.

It’s, it’s funny, I have people on both sides. So I have some people that are like, I don’t really have an alcohol problem, but my ex kind of does. And like, how do I work with them? And then the opposite of like, yeah, I’ve been drinking a lot and like I am doing better with it. And there’s all types of issues with trust and sort of stuff that happens.

But the one thing that I see when we reduce that drinking is that we can start to have actual conversations and rebuild that trust.

 

[00:25:00]

You know, a lot of times after a divorce that needs to be rebuilt anyway for whatever reason the divorce happens. You know, the, the, at least the people that I work with, aren’t really getting along we’ll put it that way, you know, with their ex. Yeah. And so there is a lot of hard feelings and a lot of, a lot of yeah, a lot of trust to be rebuilt. And so getting alcohol out of the way and maybe addressing some of the, the things for us that were some of the root causes of breaking that trust in the first place that can go such.

A long way in helping people figure out how to co-parent. There was a thing I had, I would still remember this so clearly. So here I live in the state of Maine and part of what my ex and I had to do, we got divorced, we didn’t have lawyers or anything, we just like kind of figured it all out on ourselves and, we, one of the things that the court had us do was take this co-parenting course I’m not going to name it, it wasn’t really good, like in hindsight, I’m like, oh my gosh.

 

[00:26:00]

But one of the things the guy said stuck with me forever, and oh my God, did it piss me off? Because it was the last thing I wanted to hear.

So I was there in the, you know, in the, in the classroom. It was like a Saturday morning. Hung over, of course, and the guy said. You all are getting divorced because you couldn’t communicate and work together. I have really bad news for you. You’re going to have to communicate and work better now than if you had stayed married because you’re going to have to work through all this bullshit.

 

And I was like, ah. Like I was so mad about this. And like the reality was he was right. Like I, yeah, had to do that. And I had to get to know myself better and my ex. And so, you’re right that those relationships absolutely 100% improve and change, but we as individuals have to allow ourselves to change and grow.

And I wouldn’t call my ex a friend.

[00:27:00]

You know, like it’s not, you know, if I’m, whatever, if someone’s throwing me a surprise birthday party, I don’t think they’re going to be on the list. But like we can hang out, we can laugh. And that is so far from where I was. Yeah, it’s so different. And then the last piece about the, the sort of gaslighting in that I think this is particularly dangerous in a divorce situation, in a co-parenting situation.

 

And so, you know, conversations can happen, things can be said or not said or convinced that they were said. And it’s, it’s difficult. When someone else holds our drinking over our head, it’s also to an extent understandable, like if we’re, you know, potentially dangerous for ourselves or others, like something, you know, we have to figure that out.

And again, like my sort of conversation around this and my sort of strategy around it is to try to develop as much mutual understanding as possible.

[00:28:00]

And so, the person who may be doing the gaslighting oftentimes people think they’re doing a good thing to help, you know, sort of to, I don’t know, for lack of a better term, force a rock bottom.

 

Like, we, we kind of talk about that, but then also for the drinker to make sure that like, yes, they’re working on it. Yes, they’re trying to change and they’re trying to grow, and it certainly can feel like a heavy lift, but to also be putting things in place so that those situations that gaslighting can happen.

Don’t happen as often, if at all. Hmm. Yeah. You said we can talk about it in terms of forcing the rock bottom. Tell me about that. Well I just, you know, I have a lot of I have a lot of experience talking to people who think. Supporters who think that if I make life worse for the drinker, they’ll stop.

 

And, and, and again, this is an innocent thing, like if you watch that show intervention, right. I’ve never watched it, which is funny.

[00:29:00]

Oh my God. As a Sober coach. But yeah, you should, I, I think I would be very interested to hear what you think. Is it like an example of what not to do? In my world.

Yeah. I mean obviously there’s different approaches to it. This does not match my approach, but like one of the things that they do is they follow and, you know, and they, it’s not just drinking, it’s lots of different substances, but they follow this addict around and then they’re coming to their final interview and they walk into the room and like, there’s mom and dad and Aunt Betty and your sister, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Right? And it’s like your whole support system’s there. And then what they do to try to get, basically you’re offered treatment, but each and every one of the people in that room have written you a letter and they take turns reading their letter. And it is, it is an attempt to force a rock bottom if you don’t stop using, I’m no longer going to let you live in the house, or I’m no longer going to whatever.

 

[00:30:00]

And it’s this idea. That I’m going to create more pain for you so that you do the thing that we all know you should do. And this is understandable, but like as someone who’s gone through it. I see this and I’m like, this is so clearly created by someone who hasn’t gone through this process. Yeah, because like for me, like I knew I was causing pain.

I was causing my pain myself. Pain every fucking day. Like, I like what you’re going to do more than I’ve done to myself. Whatever.

Yeah. You know, because the alternative was so scary and quitting was so scary. So that’s what I mean about like trying to force a rock bottom. Yeah. Like, I see that happen.

And again, totally human, totally understandable, but when we start kind of peeling away the layers, we start to see that a lot of times that’s not super helpful. Yeah. You know, that’s interesting because what I try to do, and I’m sure what you try to do too, is inspire people to stop drinking before it gets to that point.

[00:31:00]

Yes. To say, Hey, no, what, what I always say is like, stop. Debating whether you are that bad or whether you have a drinking problem. Just see how you feel after X amount of time. Alcohol free, because it is so much better than you can imagine. But we, I was sitting around, I just did a podcast episode with 5 women in my membership who helped me there.

So they’re all like 2, 3, 5 years sober. And we were laughing because some of them were like, you know, I used to watch that show intervention and be like, yeah, these people have a problem. Like these people are really bad, you know, to like differentiate where they work. And I was laughing because I was like, oh, I used to do that with Super Nanny.

I’d be like, I’m a fantastic Bob because look at these kids, you know? I love that. I love that. I actually did..

If you’re listening to this episode and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®. The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study, sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step-by-step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one-on-one coaching. And The Sobriety Starter Kit® is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it, when it fits into your schedule.  You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time. This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step-by-step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life. You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better, you’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course.

 

[00:32:00]

So interestingly, I did the exact opposite with intervention because there was a guy and he, there were a lot of parallels. With like my life and his like, I think he was, I used to be an engineer, so he was an engineer and he had a career and he had a wife and he had kids.

And he started losing all of it, right? He started like, he lost his job and then he was like, I think he was like living in his mom’s basement and then like, his wife didn’t want him to see the kids anymore, like all of this was happening. And then he gets to this point and he gets to the intervention and they’re like, will you accept this offer of help. And he says, yes. And I remember like sitting in a hotel room, Lord fuck, I have no idea where I was. But I used to travel a lot, sitting in a hotel room, drinking my scotch. I remember seeing that guy and thinking like, oh man, he has it easy. Which is crazy because he had gone so much farther down the road, like there have been so many more consequences.

[00:33:00]

Like, I didn’t lose jobs, I didn’t get DUIs, I didn’t like, you know, my divorce had nothing to do with my drinking. Actually, my drinking really picked up afterward. And what’s fascinating to me is that in that moment I was able to say like, oh, easy for him. And that’s because. Alcohol makes us feel so miserable.

 

Like emotionally. Yeah. We can think that we are alone, you know? And so it’s interesting that, that we’ve all had different reactions to that show. But I have done the thing, like I’ve gone, I went to AA meetings and heard stories and definitely walked out of there and been like, whew. Good thing I’m not an alcoholic.

Like when? Exactly. Yeah. I totally get that. Well, so I was curious, and, and I asked you about this slightly earlier. Yeah. You work in terms of coaching both women and men. Mm-hmm. And I only work with women, so what differences have you seen between both the support that men and women need that are different and also what they struggle with in drinking or stopping drinking?

 

[00:34:00]

Yeah. I mean, I, I hate to be. So stereotypical. But in general, so like my process in, in, in helping people quit drinking is to get in touch with like the thoughts and emotions that are happening inside and start working with those in a different way. And it, it is through doing that. That different behavior can take shape.

 

And so oftentimes the first place we stop is, is how do we, like, what am I thinking? What am I feeling? And this is where the stereotypical part comes in, I’m afraid. I would say more often for men than for women. When they ask those questions, the answer’s like, I don’t know. Like, I don’t know what I’m feeling.

I’m not feeling anything. It’s like, well, you are, you’re just not tuned into it. And there is a thing for me that I, that, that, that. Is frustrating sometimes is in that culturally men are kind of told or shown not to feel emotions. We’re supposed to just shut up and deal. Right.

[00:35:00]

And while I am a big fan of grit, I’m a big fan of determination. I’m a big fan of like if emotions are running high, you know, saying like, you know what? I know I feel like shit, but I’m going to push through. I think that’s wonderful, but that is not the only tool. And I think a lot of men are sort of taught to not connect with and understand their emotions. Now, unfortunately, what that means for this process, this process of quitting drinking is that we got a little, little bit of work to do before we can start kind of working with those emotions because ultimately understanding the thoughts and emotions we’re having are going to lead us to the place of doing that deeper work that allows us to let go of alcohol and move on.

 

So, Unfortunately it is true. Like, I, in general, I find that guys tend to be a little bit less in touch emotionally than women, although interestingly, you know, it’s, it’s a bell curve, right?

[00:36:00]

So, I’ve also worked with the opposite. I’ve worked with plenty of women who are like, I have no idea how I feel, and plenty of men who are like, super in touch, but like in general, that’s, that’s sort of what I see support wise is really interesting, too.

You know, I you know, I run a membership and we have people in there so that they can support each other. One of the biggest things that I suggest people have for support is other people, and you kind of hinted at this earlier, other people who know what it’s like.

 

That seems to be a little bit easier for women. Like if you go online and you search alcohol free coaching, like you’re going to see like it’s a majority women. It’s changing. Yeah. And I will say like, I’ve been in this world now for about 10 years and like I’m definitely seeing it shift. So a lot of times women are better at finding that support.

 

With guys, you know, I, well, obviously there’s, you know, I coach people one-on-one. But also getting in groups and connecting with other men can be really helpful. Yeah. It’s just a, they’re a little bit less likely to jump at that, so it’s a little bit more of like, all right, let’s find the right fit for you.

[00:37:00]

The journey is the same, right from at 30,000 feet. The journey is the same in that it’s like understanding what’s happening for us internally, working with the way we think and the way we sort of operate in the world. But when we start to get down to ground level, kind of the, the tactics start to change a little bit, if that makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I sort of, I only work with women, but what I see, so I attended AA for 4 months and it didn’t, it didn’t end up being my path. Mm-hmm. And I know a lot of people in the program who absolutely love it and it saved their life and, and, you know, really got so much out of it. But one of the things that bothered me about it was that it was created essentially by 2 Christian men 80, 90 years ago. And I do in the big book, and even in the meetings, find that the vibe is very paternalistic.

 

[00:38:00]

And also very, you know, this is your ego and you need to be broken down and you need to be of service and you need to do X, Y, Z. And what I see with the women I work with is the issue is not that they need to be of service.

The issue is that they have really poor boundaries and they do everything for other people. And they’ve been mm-hmm. You know, socialized by society to think that if they aren’t. Quote, unquote nice or yes, doing things for others or super productive, then they are not going to be liked or not going to be loved.

 

Mm-hmm. Like they’re proving their worth. And so most of the women I see is, are like, I’m doing the work, I’m doing the kids. My to-do list is endless, so I’m doing all the things and then I’m coming home and drinking to forget about the other things. But also because like. I can multitask while drinking.

Like I can play candy land and I can mm-hmm. Cook dinner and I can do all the things and this is my only reward.

[00:39:00]

Yeah. And so, a lot of times with women, I’m like, okay, you have to lower the bar and you have to commute. You have to say no, and you have to require your partner to do more or turn down things that people expect of you because you’ve set it up that way. Like, you need to actually take care of yourself and give you room to breathe.

 

Yeah. And so, I don’t work with men, so I don’t know what they need to do. But that’s one of the things that, that I’ve seen that, that a lot of women need to do is like to value themselves enough to take care of themselves enough so that they don’t, you know.

Almost need to downshift so quickly with alcohol. Mm-hmm. Like I used to say, I’d come home from work and literally the visual that helped me was like, I’m coming home from work and I am knocking myself unconscious with a bottle of wine over my head. Yes. And then I’m waking up and doing it again and why the fuck am I doing this?

I have a great life. Like what is going on?

[00:40:00]

Mm-hmm. I love this topic. You know, it’s funny, I, I say to, I used to say to my wife, like, you people have been lied to by you people. I meant women. Yeah. But I’ve realized now that like we all have been in different ways. Given what, so I’m 45 years old or will be 45 in a couple of months, and, I’ve seen a lot of change in my lifetime in terms of like how women operate in the, in the world, in, in very positive ways, right? Like, so like when I was a kid was really at the time when a lot of women were entering the workforce and there were, you know, like, I. Just lots, lots more opportunities were happening. And that’s really, really great. But I think that what happened is culturally a lot of these opportunities were afforded, but we didn’t talk about the other end.

 

[00:41:00]

And so, the like ideal ends up becoming this, this woman who can be a CEO and somehow also a full-time mom and somehow also run a household like it, just like all of this stuff that it’s like when you, if you were an alien and you could come down to this planet and look at it, you would see, you would look at that and be like, that is just straight up fucking impossible. Like, there’s not, you know, there’s only so many hours. And I think these expectations really hurt a lot of people.

 

And I think it’s a same thing. Similar but different thing with, with guys, right? It’s like where the emphasis is put on things, but it, we have a similar thing going on where it’s like, oh yeah. So, traditionally guys are supposed to be the quote unquote “breadwinner” and like go out there and build a business and like do these things and all this manly stuff that like.

Yeah, fine, you can do that. But the trade-offs are going to be family. They are going to be like contributing around the house and then as like, you know, as sort of culture continues to evolve, then we’re like, no, guys are supposed to do both also. And then you just kind look around and you’re like, well wait a minute, like, everyone seems to be set up to fail, like what is happening.

[00:42:00]

Yeah. And for me it’s that same conversation around drawing those boundaries, right? And saying no to things. Then that might be saying no to more travel for work. That’s, that’s a tough thing to do, but sometimes we have to do it. It’s saying no to like social things.

 

And then it’s also like tuning in to the stuff that maybe we’re ignoring. Like I was raised, and I talk about this in my, I have a 3 month program called, Shift. But I talk about this in the shift program that I was really raised with a belief that work equals worth. And so, that was great when I was in my 20s and I lived in New York City, you know, and I could work my ass off and it was wonderful.

But then eventually I ended, had a wife in kids and I found that that belief that like work is how I proved my worth was very much at odds with being a husband and a father. And that created a a lot of problems for me.

[00:43:00]

And so, I think there are sort of similar constructs happening for men that there are for, for women.

And I find that interestingly in coaching both, we can have conversations like boundaries and there’s a whole lot of overlap, exactly what those boundaries are and who we’re drawing them with. Might be different, but the emotions and the way we’re kind of dealing with it can be very, very similar. Yeah, no, I, I totally see that because, you know, my husband doesn’t struggle with alcohol.

He, he, you know, is in normal drinker who can take it or leave it. Done. He has an off switch, unlike me. Yeah. But we’ve had conversations where he was deeply unhappy with things in his work life and yet felt trapped and yet mm-hmm. You know, all these things. And he said to me once, he was like, well, I think you’d rather me fall off my white horse and die than like step off it. And I was like. I don’t want you to do that. Yeah. Like I desperately don’t want you to do that.

[00:44:00]

I, and in my mind, I was like, he said to me, and when I was drinking, I was like banging around the kitchen as one does or whatever, so frustrated and resentful and irritated and he was like. Babe, if you think you’re doing this for us, like all the things, he was like, you can just stop because nobody wants to live with a martyr.

 

And then, yep, 7 years later, I’m sober. I’ve been through therapy, I’ve stopped drinking, I’ve done Coaching programs. Yeah. Like, and same thing. I’m like, if you think you’re being a martyr for us, please don’t, because there is nothing worse than living with someone who is miserable.

 

Yeah. And, but I agree with you like the – we’ve been socialized by society almost to do the same thing, but for different reasons. Yes, and you’ve probably, I mean, social media is like the king of getting people to think that they need to do all these different things.

[00:45:00]

Whether it is like, I don’t know, like how you decorate for Christmas, you know, or like what vacations you take with your family or how, like there are just so many things that like.

These expectations get put out there. And I don’t think we question like who’s expecting it. And it turns out that it’s no one, like it turns out that like, you know, if all you can do for your kids is make a box of macaroni and cheese and then sit around and have a conversation about their day, they’re going to be really happy about that ’cause they spend some time.

 

Absolutely. Yeah. They don’t need like the, you know, fancy, super healthy. I mean, healthy is good. They don’t even want it. Like, let real, they don’t even, yeah. They don’t need that. Right? Yeah. And so, I think we do end up from a lot of sources putting this pressure on ourselves.

It’s the same thing, you know, like, I find that like, so I’m, I own my own business, right? And so, I have to like spend some time thinking, okay, like how hard am I going to push here? Like, how many clients am I going to take on?

[00:46:00]

When am I going to do that call for this group? Like those sort of things. Yeah. And over and over and over.

I, I just start, I see where this stuff comes up against the way I want to live, like the sort of dad or the sort of husband I want to be. And it’s through the work that I’ve done that I’ve been able, that I’m now able to make the choices I’m making. Without any guilt. Right. Because I used, I before I’d been like, well geez, you know, like the kid, you know, the youngest goes to bed at seven, so I can probably do another two calls, you know, between eight and 10, like if I wanted to and like I would push to do that.

But like where was that expectation coming from? I don’t know. Because I didn’t want it. Yeah. My family didn’t want it. And I suddenly realized that. And I think when we go through this process of getting back in touch with this stuff life looks very, very different.

[00:47:00]

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s so funny you mentioned social media and I realized when I was stopping drinking and in some of these sort of private groups with other women, I was telling them more real things about my life in the moment than I would share with anyone in my real life. Mm-hmm. Including the people I saw every day, or my best friend or anyone else. Because you have to, right? You have to talk about your triggers. You have to talk about what is bothering you and we are always kind of concerned about how we present to other people, even our good friends, or you don’t want to say shit about your spouse because they know your spouse.

 

Yeah. You know, you don’t want to be quote unquote “badmouthing” them even though you’re like, and if fucking did, you know, didn’t make the goddamn dinner, even though I called him and I said, X, Y, Z, and he’s staring at his phone. But we’re just not honest. And then, if you have a ton of friends on social media that include your mother and your boss and your whoever it is, and your people at, you know, the daycare parents. I just remember very vividly and I was long sober.

[00:48:00]

This was like a year ago, but I was going to Hamilton with my family and my husband was in the most passive aggressive shit mood and was just being a total dick in general, not just to me like, you know, the, the dark cloud that surrounds you and you’re just in that mood and I was so pissed because I had wanted to go to Hamilton for like 4 years.

I bought the ticket 6 months before and I was just like so angry. And so, I’m typing into my group and I was like, what the fuck? I’m so pissed. And I even told my 11-year-old daughter, I was like, you have to sit next to me because he is ruining my mood and like, I need a barrier. And I don’t do that often, so I wasn’t poisoning her thing.

She’s like, yeah, dude, he’s in a mood,  but guess what I posted on social media? It was a picture of the happy family in that right in front of the side being like, mm-hmm.

[00:49:00]

You know, not hashtag Hamilton, but essentially like, oh my God, this is the best day I get to see Hamilton. And the entire time I was like, steam was coming out of my head and I was like, yeah, dude, get out of the car.

I don’t want to be with you. You’re ruining this for me. Right. But you would never say that to 1500 people. Mm. No, and like, I don’t know, this is a whole other topic, but like, I, like for me, like I’ve really been trying to disengage from social media. Yeah. And even from a business standpoint, like how do I reach people that don’t use social media, but it’s damaging.

You know, I think that, you know, and I mean this is not a revelation. I’m sure people have heard this in other places too, but like, you know, we just don’t do that. So, we don’t show up as our actual selves on social media. We show up as who we want to be, and so, we clean the living room and take a picture and inside the frame everything’s nice and clean, but just outside the frame, you know, everything’s a mess.

[00:50:00]

And you know, people, I mean, there’s some really crazy stuff that people will do, like rent houses at the holidays to put up a Christmas tree. They get pictures so that they look a certain way. I mean, it’s crazy stuff, right? And like, I think the thing that’s funny about it is we all know that it’s bullshit, and yet it still has an impact on us.

You know, if you are scrolling and you see that picture from Hamilton and you are actually having a fight with your partner at that point and you’re like, look, look, they can go do, why can’t I? Right. Even though it’s all a construct, like the whole thing is, you know? Yeah. And, and I find it. It’s funny ’cause like one of the things I, I work with clients on is not engaging with that stuff as much for that exact reason because it can be so, I don’t know, demoralizing might be the right word, you know, to see just all this positive all around you all the time.

But then, you look in your own life and you’re like, well, it’s not like it for me, so something’s wrong with me.

[00:51:00]

Well, and I hear more and more women sometimes I go on social media, I would say the majority of times just to go to my like sober groups. Like I just click in there and I don’t do the big scroll.

I mean, I even have like shortcuts where it takes me directly into my groups on social media. It won’t go to the main page. Yeah. But I hear so many women I work with like. Why can’t I drink like this friend or that friend or nobody else is dealing with this It. And it’s same thing, like if you can imagine, it’s like social media, talking about struggling with alcohol is like the third rail because everybody, or at least every woman I know, I mean right now.

Women will easily tell you that they’re in therapy. They will easily tell you that they are on antidepressants or anti-anxiety meds. They will easily, you know, I’m sitting in the freaking basketball stands and women, like five women, five moms, are talking about Botox, right?

 

[00:52:00]

And people will talk about sugar and gluten and whatever.

Nobody will talk about alcohol because it’s so loaded. They don’t want to be seen as having a, a problem with it. And so, mm-hmm. The women that I talk to, I’m like, you have no idea how many women struggle with alcohol. Like you say, she’s just having two glasses of wine at a cafe. But I’m like. Yeah, I used to have a drink before I went out.

I would go out and like really struggle with not ordering that third glass of wine ’cause I wanted to be able to drive home. And then, I would come home and open a bottle of wine. So, like, you literally have no idea what’s going on in anyone else’s relationship with alcohol. And I would say so many more women than, you know, struggle with this.

They just do it silently. Yeah. Yeah. And like we. Again, I hope that, I mean, it feels like that conversation is changing.

[00:53:00]

Yes, and, but there is a, we’re getting into it now, but there is a, there is like a mass delusion, I think happening around alcohol and it’s like this agreement that we’ve all had for a long time.

 

There are very few other things that we do that make us feel so shitty. We just ignore the shitty part and we have like a collective group agreement. Like we’re not going to talk about that, right? We’re not going to talk about the hangovers. We might talk about ’em and joke about ’em, but that’s really only as a badge of honor because it proves how awesome we were the night before.

Awesome. And quotation fingers a hundred percent. Yeah, but we just have this whole thing where like PE no one wants to seem to pop the balloon around alcohol. Like, there’s this societal. I don’t know what to call it, like myth lore around all of this that’s changing and it’s breaking, but like it’s still very, very strong out there, you know?

[00:54:00]

And, I agree. People are more open than ever about what used to be very personal things. Like, I’m old enough to remember when saying I’m in therapy could potentially get a stigma put on you.

Yeah. Whereas now, like, I think a lot of men still believe that it does. Yeah. I think women are better and I hope it’s changing for men, but I still, you know, hear the, if anyone knew I was taking an antidepressant, yada, yada, yada, and I’m like, Really?

Yeah. Yeah. But like I see it, I see it changing. And this is again, finding that connection with people you can talk to, like people in your groups. Like, people in my groups, you know, like we can say things to each other that, you know, I mean, I talk about personal stories on, I’m running a call tonight in a few hours.

I guarantee you, I will say at least half a dozen things on that call that I would never in my life post on social media. Gotcha. And it was just because I’m in those smaller groups and able to connect that way.

[00:55:00]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I say stuff all the time on this podcast, but you have to listen for like an hour to hear all the shit.

And sometimes, people at my husband’s school, like the wife of the former head of school was like, oh, I listen to every podcast of yours. I was like, holy shit. Oh. But then, I’m like. Well, if she is listening to an hour or multiple hours of my podcast, like mm-hmm. She’s invested and like, yeah.

She also knows the good stuff. So, whatever. Right. Well that’s, I mean, that’s the good thing, right? Like, that’s the conversation actually starting to happen, right?

Yeah. And, and us just being real. I don’t know. I have a lot of optimism that things are going to continue to change, that things are going to continue to shift just because of what I’ve seen.

I feel like, no, I mean, if you look at the news around, I mean, I posted something a couple days ago about the amount of people who now believe that alcohol is bad for you versus three years ago.

[00:56:00]

Mm-hmm. The amount of people who aren’t drinking or are cutting back versus 3 years ago. I mean, it’s really incredible how quickly the conversation is shifting and also how freaked out the alcohol companies are.

Yeah. About that. Like, they are like, holy shit, we have to do something. So, I’m expecting that like pushback. I’ve already seen it. Like, they’re like, well, alcohol’s good for connecting and people on their phones and kids today aren’t connecting it up like, Ooh, you’re reaching out, you know, I’ll, that’s a good one.

Call it for mental health or something. But whatever.

Well, this has been an awesome conversation. Thank you so much for coming on. As I said, I’ve really been searching for great Coaches who work with men, and I’ve talked to you a bunch and I think you’re fantastic. Thank you. So, I appreciate it.

If people want to get in touch with you, learn about your coaching, your groups, the co-parenting piece, the alcohol piece, where can they find you?

[00:57:00]

Right. At my website, scottpinyard.com. You can also just send me an email, scott@scottpinyard.com. That’s great. I love hearing from people but that’s the best way to sort of get in touch and yeah. Thank you for having me. Like, this was really fun. I know it’s funny, sometimes I get in conversations with people and I can tell we have a lot in common because it just like goes all over the place and we’re like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this felt like one of those conversations, so thanks.

Yeah, absolutely.