SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Drinking, take care of yourself, triggers, simple practices, alcohol-free, life, addiction, recovery, sobriety, relationship with alcohol, booze free, lifestyle, tarot cards, sobriety deck, prompts, journaling, sober, sobriety toolkit, finding community, experience joy, celebrate yourself, glimmer, sober curious, early sobriety, peer support, accountability, joy, knowing your why, glimmers

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Tawny Lara, Lisa Smith

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

[00:01:21]

Hi there. Today, we are talking about

simple practices for alcohol free life,

and my guests are Tawny Lara and Lisa Smith. You might know them because they’ve been on the podcast before, or because they’re the co-hosts of the Recovery Rocks podcast. They recently launched the Sobriety Deck, a 50 card deck.

[00:01:41]

Offering guidance and inspiration for anyone rethinking their relationship with alcohol.

Tawny is also the author of Dry Humping: A Guide To Dating, Relating and Hooking Up Without Booze. And we also did an episode with Tawny talking about all that.

And she’s the co-creator of Parentheses, a non-alcoholic botanical spirit.

Lisa Smith is the author of the addiction and recovery memoir girl walks out of a bar, which by the way, was one of the very first books I read in early sobriety. And it’s so good.

[00:02:14]

You should definitely pick it up if you haven’t read it. So guys, welcome.

Hello. Thank you.

Yeah. It’s so great to be with you.

It’s so great to have you guys here and I was telling you just before we jumped on that we’re going to talk about the sobriety deck and the simple practices for a booze free lifestyle, but the deck itself is gorgeous.

 

[00:02:37]

It’s like tarot cards and the cards are like a nice thickness and the art on it is fantastic.

So, I’ve seen a lot of different sobriety products, but this one’s gorgeous.

Thank you so much. We’re very proud.

Yes, you should be. It’s awesome. So, tell me about it.

[00:02:56]

How did you guys come up with the idea to do the deck and what’s in it?

Yeah, so, Lisa and I love tarot. We love cards and we’ve been doing our podcast since 2018, so we thought it was a really fun way to distill all of our episodes into this fun self-help deck.

Yeah, I love it. I was telling you, I’m super into tarot myself, and every year in the new year I do tarot, and then I pick three angel cards, and so when I saw this, I was like, I absolutely love it.

[00:03:33]

We’re so glad. We love tarot, too, and so we would always go back and forth, and there’s actually some tarot represented on the cards. The cup suit is on there. We want it to be, just something, that people can draw on when they need it.

Yeah, well, one of the things I wanted to do in this podcast was actually have you guys teach us a little bit about what’s in the card deck.

[00:03:58]

So, what are the simple practices that people listening to this could incorporate for their alcohol-free life and to get started, you guys divided the card deck into 5 sections. Is that right?

 

Yes. Yeah.

Can you tell us about how you decided what should come first and what comes after that?

Sure. We, really decided to, organize it in a way that could take someone and it’s for someone who is either sober or sober curious, you know, just thinking about it.

 

[00:04:33]

They’re really for anybody who’s reevaluating their relationship with alcohol.

 

At all. And so, we started kind of at the beginning. We talk a lot on the podcast about our sobriety toolkits that kind of, you know, like nuts and bolts practices, things that we did to start out and that we keep with us. So, for example, finding community is one of the cards, right?

 

[00:04:57]

These are the things that we, there’s 5, 10 cards in each section. So, those are the building blocks.

And we made the second section knowing yourself, right? Because when, when we’re not drinking, all of a sudden, you know, we’re, we’re able to feel certain things that we hadn’t felt before. And we need to kind of get to know ourselves outside of drinking.

[00:05:23]

And so, those are, there’s a lot in there about ways to really investigate, you know, who you are and what you want. And then, we take it to the next level.

The third section is relationships, right? Because now we’ve, we’ve got our tools, we know ourselves, and now we’re going to interact with other humans, which is always you know, can all can all can be a challenge.

[00:05:45]

And so we took that in the context. There’s cards in there about relationships with family, with friends, chosen family with work and certainly with dating and relationships come into that. And then the fourth section is called showing up. And I don’t know, you know, about for others, but for me, I at the end of my drinking, I couldn’t take my laundry over to the laundromat across the street, or, you know, without drinking.

[00:06:20]

So, I didn’t know how to show up for anything. And now, when we’re not drinking and we’re living this, this more integrated life, we can show up for things for people and in ways we, we hadn’t before. Been able to in the past, and that’s a real great, you know, real benefit of sobriety. And then, finally we made the last 10 cards, the, the fifth section on just experiencing joy, right?

[00:06:46]

Mm-hmm . Because we all know we didn’t get sober to be miserable. And you know, there it can be hard for us, especially, you know, given, I know in my drinking there were a lot of things I don’t feel proud of, you know, but really letting yourself.

Experience joy and celebrate yourself and acknowledge that you’re doing something that can be difficult and but it’s also you’re doing something that’s really great for yourself and you know, really being able to enjoy that.

[00:07:21]

Yeah, and as we go on to this, I realized I’ve spoken to you both before, but will you tell us just a little bit about how you guys went through early sobriety or questioning your relationship with Alcohol? What support you use? Because I know it was a different approach for both of you. Yeah, I think that the fact that Lisa and I have such different approaches to our recovery.

[00:07:48]

Is why people like our shared story because it shows that there’s no one way, right? There’s so many different ways to get help to get support.

[00:08:00]

So, we didn’t have the term sober curious when I quit drinking, but that’s definitely what I was. I decided to take. One year off of alcohol and just see how it impacts my creativity and I started blogging about it.

 

[00:08:14]

And, you know, the blog took off. I connected with really incredible people. It’s literally how I met Lisa. And you know, spoiler alert, I just celebrated nine years in recovery and I’ve since, you know, launched a book and a drink and a card deck. And so I think my, my instinct was correct. Alcohol was absolutely hindering my recovery or my approach to creativity.

[00:08:37]

But, you know, I found peer support. I found therapy, yoga, writing, and. I just, I can’t rep, I cannot recommend finding community enough. It, you cannot do this stuff alone. Even if you’re just doing a dry month, I would say, you need, you do. You need to find some peer support. It’s, it’s a game changer, even if it’s just an accountability buddy.

 

[00:09:02]

And yeah, I’ll talk, I’ll toss it to you, Lisa. Well, yeah, my story. My story is very different. And I went down a 12 year spiral really of from when I started to drink every night to all the way down to the end where the last 18 months of my drinking were alcohol and cocaine around the clock. I couldn’t get out of bed without a drink and you know, I was fronting all of this, keeping it from everybody.

[00:09:34]

And then when I couldn’t do it, when I crashed out one morning, I, me. Had a bottom myself, and it wasn’t, I mean, I was just fortunate that it wasn’t in the office, or it wasn’t You know, in that kind of context, I was able to keep control of my own story. And at that point, I said, I got to do this and I knew I was physically addicted and now that I would have to be hospitalized and go through a detox.

[00:09:59]

And I did. I did a 5 day detox. And then, when I left the hospital, I did not, as was suggested, go to a 30 or 60 day inpatient. And also, I should say, I celebrated in April 20 years sober. So, it was a very different time, you know, to kind of take a leave and do that. So I went right back to work, but did agree to go two nights a week to, to outpatient rehab after work.

[00:10:30]

And from there, somebody who I hugely respected, he was, I thought he was the biggest sober guru. I had 10 days sober. He had 11 and I couldn’t believe it. And he had gone to an AA meeting and said, you know, it’s actually pretty cool. You kind of like it. And so I went and for me, I, you know, I thought I was, I walked into this church and, you know, there were people sitting on the upper level on the, like eating lunch and, you know, normal work people, normal people in midtown Manhattan.

[00:11:07]

And I said, excuse me, do you know where the AA meeting is? And they were like, this is it. And I said, Oh my God, like what I had been afraid of. So, I embraced it. I got you know, I got a sponsor who was a real hard, hard on me and I needed that. And I did the steps. I still. I don’t attend meetings the way I used to.

[00:11:28]

But I do, you know, I live in the 12 steps. They really are for me, and not for everybody. Obviously, you know, there weren’t alternatives when I got sober, too.

Yeah. I, I totally get, I mean, 20 years is amazing. And like I said, I remember reading your book. I actually think it was the first time I quit drinking cause I quit.

[00:11:49]

12 years ago for a year and then I went back to drinking for two years and Tawny, I think our sobriety dates are like two months apart because my nine years are February 18th of this year. And it wasn’t.

Okay. Yeah. So, it was still early days. There wasn’t a whole lot out there 9 years ago. But since then, obviously with your podcast and everything else, it’s, it’s been totally crazy.

[00:12:15]

Yeah. I guess, like, way more approachable for people in terms of, like, just being more out there and more different venues and sort of lowering the bar on what it means to struggle with alcohol and to stop drinking.

Yeah, and I think a lot of it that I see a real shift in is. That it’s not so much about at the beginning very much, and it still is, you know, to a large extent, normalizing, getting help and sobriety and all that, but just the concept of normalizing, not drinking. I mean, that’s what’s happening now, like younger people are making very different choices and, you know, removing alcohol from their lives without having, you know, had that just deciding I’m not a drinker.

[00:13:00]

And I think the more that that is normalized also, it helps.

Yeah. So, I, was it hard to pick 10 things, like, so, in terms of, like, Sobriety Toolkit? How did you guys collaborate to be like, yes, these are the ten most important things that we think someone should put into their Sobriety Toolkit? We had these, these long Zoom sessions where, you know, we’d both be in a Google Doc.

 

[00:13:31]

And, you know, we, we had lunch breaks, like, you know, it was like, it was, I will say it was so fun to collaborate on this, like, because we’ve each, we’ve each written books and writing a book is so solitary. And this was such a different experience because we were working together.

So, you know, we, we combed through the podcast and listen, we were thinking of like, what are the recurring topics?

[00:13:53]

What are the biggest questions that we get because, you know, we both do public speaking too, and we get asked a lot of questions. So, we really just like took note of all of that. And a lot of deck or a lot of the cards, you know, ended up on the cutting room floor, just the same as with any books. Some chapters are going to get cut.

[00:14:12]

So we, we just, you know, we talked it out and we figured. What we thought would be best for the deck. And then, of course, the editor gave us feedback on their vision and what they wanted to include. So, it was a very collaborative process.

Yeah, and I think for each section, I remember us sort of putting ourselves in the place of the person looking for some advice on this.

[00:14:36]

Right? So somebody who’s just deciding, I think I’m going to cut out alcohol for a while, or I’m quitting alcohol, you know, put, we put our place, put ourselves in their place to make the sobriety toolkit. And then the same with like, like, kind of going through with the person, like, what would it feel like, what relationships are going to be tricky right now?

[00:14:58]

Like, what could we say to somebody who, you know, is going through this? So, I think there was a lot of that.

Yeah. Yeah. So, if someone is in, if someone’s listening to this and are sort of in the early stages of sobriety, do you guys have any, you talked about finding community as being really critical, but are there other sort of specific cards or practices that you think would be really helpful?

 

[00:15:23]

I would say, There’s probably a card on this like just giving yourself grace. Don’t we have a card on that? Just being nice to yourself. I need to be reminded of that every single day. So that’s why we put it in there. You know, if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking. You know, I, maybe I do need to cut back on alcohol or I do need to get sober, or I do want to change my relationship with substances, whatever it is, just remember you’re not alone and you know, just really be nice to yourself.

[00:15:54]

Like, if you do need to cut back, there’s nothing wrong with you, you know, don’t think of it as good or bad. Just like observing. Hey, Stevie. Just observing. Hey, okay. I want to change my relationship with this thing and just looking at it from an objective perspective and, you know, talk to your therapist, talk to your doctor, talk to a friend if you’re not ready to go to a support group try, try a zoom support group.

[00:16:20]

I still do this. I’ll attend zoom support groups. With my camera off and just listen, go for a walk. And it’s so validating to just listen to other people’s experiences and what they’re going through. And it could be a really good way to, to try out peer support without, I know how scary it could be to walk into a church basement.

[00:16:45]

And be like, Oh my God, this is, I don’t know how to do this. So I think the try a zoom, try a zoom meeting, I think would, can be such a game changer. Yeah. You know, it’s funny. I went to AA meeting like, a let, when I tried 12 years ago and I attended for like. For months for a while, does everybody cry at their 1st meeting?

[00:17:08]

Like, I just walked in there and I wasn’t, I was like, I’m cool. I’m cool, like immediately. I just started crying. I think it was just the overwhelm of being there and the nerves and everything just felt totally overwhelming. But of course, there’s some relief to being in that room with a bunch of people who got it.

[00:17:27]

Yeah, totally. And what I was going in, like, I think it was like defensiveness and self protection. I was like, well, bucket list, never do this before. And then, I got there and I was like, oh, my God, I was also just going to add on when we talk about how somebody like, if you’re just starting out. You know, all of any of the cards can be helpful, right?

[00:17:48]

If you’re just starting out and you’re having a really crummy day, like pull a card from experiencing joy. And we’ve set these cards up to say whether you’re, you know, one day sober or 20 years sober, it doesn’t matter. Right.

They can all apply. So, it’s really, you know, it’s kind of like a, a buck up in whatever area you might need a little help in.

[00:18:11]

Yeah. And I noticed that some of the cards, like, so for example, in knowing yourself, you were visualizing your journey. And I was looking at this one because every year I create a new vision board. It was something I did for the first time. First time in early sobriety, actually, a couple months before I stopped to have something up to remind me of what I was doing and to look at it every day.

[00:18:32]

But, I mean, 9 years in, I still create a vision board to highlight what’s important to me and what I. I’m excited about for the year and the messages I need. And so when you were talking about whether you’re in the early days or 20 years along, in terms of knowing yourself and visualizing your journey, I think that could help you with any goals that you have.

[00:18:54]

100%. Yeah.

I got a DM yesterday from someone who’s like, I’m 6 years sober and this, you know, every card still speaks to me. Thank you so much for making this, you know, and then, we’ll get messages from people who are like, you know, I just want to drink a little bit less. And this is really giving me some interesting things to think about.

[00:19:14]

So, regardless of where you are on your journey. Even if you’re not on a sobriety journey and you’re just kind of like, you’re just curious about like, what, what is this whole dry January thing? You know, there really is something in there for everyone.

Yeah, absolutely.

[00:19:31]

And I’m, I’m just pulling some at random and, you know, these are within knowing yourselves, but I think it could absolutely also be part of your sobriety toolkit. You talk about creating an elevator pitch and that’s so important when you’re telling people you don’t drink and you offer different suggestions.

[00:19:48]

I mean, otherwise you’re just deer in the headlights when someone asks you why you aren’t drinking or about the fact you’re ordering something else and then discovering your why. Like, why you are stopping drinking or why Anything that’s important to you in your life, I think, I mean, both of those could apply not only to knowing yourself, but also just like, how do you approach things in the early days?

[00:20:14]

And why is this important to you? Well, I think that the Knowing your why, you know, I think that that also answers your previous question of like, what would you share with someone who’s new to this. Understanding why you’re taking a dry month understanding why you’re giving up alcohol or evaluating your substances is so important because that’s like your North Star, right?

[00:20:39]

Like, that’s going to keep you grounded. It’s going to remind you why you’re doing this whole thing in the first place. It’s going to, it’s, you know, it’s not a trend. It’s not a fad, like evaluating your relationship with substances, incorporating mindful drinking instead of binge drinking. These are big deals.

[00:20:57]

These are big, scary life changes, right? So, if you can remember. Why, why you bought this deck? Why are you listening to this podcast? You know, remembering that is, is just going to, it’s going to keep you centered.

Yeah. And you forget it as you go along. I mean, that’s what I found. Like I always in early sobriety, I think before I even stopped, I wrote down, you know, why I wanted to stop or why I thought I should stop.

[00:21:24]

And it was very basic in some ways. I’m like, Okay. Yeah. I want to stop feeling like shit.

I want my husband to stop asking me how I’m feeling in the morning. I want to stop not remembering conversations and having glassy, you know, watery eyes. But then as you get 30 days, 60 days, you’re like, was it a big deal?

[00:21:42]

But you can look back on that list and be like, wow, I really didn’t, you know, did not like myself very much or feel very proud of myself when I was drinking.

Yeah, and it’s also very easy to, it is very easy to forget and to romanticize. It wasn’t so bad. I had a lot of good times like it. And that’s all fair.

[00:22:06]

But keeping in mind, just not losing sight of that. We’re reminding yourself of that. Why? Every once in a while, because life gets so big, right? When we, you know, change those habits and, you know, it is easy to get so caught up in what’s going on today and what’s going on in this moment. And, you know, everything we want to do once, you know, is for me, everything I do now, like there’s no way. I’d be doing anything if I hadn’t stopped drinking and so to be able to look back on like, oh, yeah, that was what it was.

[00:22:40]

And I don’t want to lose sight of that. It’s really helpful.

Yeah, I mean, journaling or writing stuff down or capturing it, however you want to do it is so powerful since, you know, we do forget why we’re doing something, especially when we feel better and you have the whole knowing yourself section.

 

Are there any specific prompts that if someone was listening to this and wanted to journal about things, you know, after they finished this podcast that you think would be really helpful?

[00:23:11]

I’m just going to reiterate knowing your why. It’s, I mean, it’s game changing. I mean, that’s the advice that I gave myself or listened to in the beginning when I first quit drinking. And even still today, I’m like, my relationship with alcohol was problematic. I drank until I blacked out. I moved to New York city to write and I’m drinking until I black out instead of writing, you know?

[00:23:37]

So, for me, it was more. You know, creativity oriented and then even still, you know, like I honestly like I’m, I’m not really tempted by booze anymore. But it’s a, it’s a reminder of like, I have all these things like everything behind me, you know, all this stuff that I’ve put out in the world. All of it is because I stopped drinking and I that is not lost on me that the fact that I like, you know, this, you know, quote, “one little thing”.

[00:24:05]

It’s not little. It’s huge. But this one decision to not drink alcohol anymore completely changed my life. And amplified my creativity in ways that I never thought were possible, especially, you know, the old adage of Hemingway’s write drunk, edit sober, like, I’m like, no, like, you don’t, you don’t have to do that.

[00:24:27]

If that’s your writing process, fine, you know, I’m not going to knock it, but it doesn’t have to be your writing process or your creativity process.

Yeah. Yeah. I also, I would just sort of add to that. What was helpful for me was being able to see the things and you could journal about this or write about this.

[00:24:46]

The things that alcohol has held you back from, right? So for me, it was a lot of holding me back. It was getting in the way of my physical health for sure. It was getting in the way of my interactions with everybody around me. And the things that, you know, you’re kind of, you could, that will help you look at alcohol and go, yeah, you know what, on balance, you’re, you’re taking more away than you’re bringing to this party.

 

Casey McGuire Davidson  19:04

If you’re listening to this episode and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®. The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study, sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step-by-step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one-on-one coaching. And The Sobriety Starter Kit® is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it, when it fits into your schedule.  You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time. This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step-by-step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life. You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better, you’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course.

[00:25:13]

Right. Like there’s more to be gained by not being with you then.

Yeah, I mean, I always think as I get away from alcohol, you know, 9 years in, but even felt this way sort of 6 months in or a year in that not drinking in and of itself was not the goal. It was the foundation. That let me do everything else that I said I wanted to do or dreamed I wanted to do.

[00:25:42]

And just didn’t because I was drinking and that made me feel insecure and like an imposter. And it took all my time and energy. So, when you were saying, Tawny, about like everything you’ve done is because you’ve stopped drinking. I feel that too. And it’s also because if I went back to drinking, I wouldn’t have the focus or the time.

[00:26:05]

to do anything beyond kind of just getting through the day or to the next weekend.

Yeah, I mean, what, even like, I, I met my husband in an AA meeting, you know. You’re not even in AA. And I don’t even go to AA, like, I’ve been to a handful of AA meetings, but, you know, I went to the ones I needed to go to but like, I, I met Lisa on Instagram.

[00:26:28]

You know, like, because I was posting about giving up alcohol for a year, you know, it’s, you know, putting myself out there being creative, but also removing this thing from my life, you know, I think that’s, that’s another, maybe another prompt is if you’re thinking about how removing alcohol from your life is a negative, maybe switch the perspective of.

[00:26:52]

What can I add to my life? You know, if I’m, if you’re doing a dry month, instead of thinking, Oh God, I’m not going to drink 30 days. What am I going to do? This sucks. Think, okay, I’m going to have a clear head for 30 days. What’s some shit I’ve been needing to do. What don’t we volunteer, take a class, you know, catch up with your friends like that.

[00:27:13]

That’s what I did. And in my first year and still today, really use it as a chance to get to know yourself more. Instead of waiting for February 1st, you know, I was surprised in early sobriety because I thought that I would like lose all my friends or be super bored or be a hermit if I stopped drinking and when I looked back after, you know, my first year not drinking, you know, when you look at like, Oh, you added this many friends on Facebook, I had added more friends that year than I had in the previous 3 years.

[00:27:53]

And I know that sounds funny, but like your online friends, they really are actual friends that you emotionally connect to. I mean, I found that I shared more with people in some of these sober groups than I did with my very best friend who I’ve known since I was 15. Like, you’re honest, I’m going through this shit right now and it’s really upsetting to me.

[00:28:15]

Yeah, and they’re people who can sort of. Way in and support you and help you because they’ve been there to, you know, that’s that that is so powerful. And, you know, I thinking about I kept I wrote a lot about my friends in. My book and they’re still my friends, like the good, the real friends stick around, right?

[00:28:37]

The people I used to hang out in the bar with, I just never saw again, right? It disappeared. But yeah, I think that was very scary to me. Am I going to lose my friends? I’m, what am I going to do? And, you know, I started seeing people who were filling their lives with. You know, one, one had been, you know, a failed musician and now was making a great go of it and, you know, doing all kinds of cool music and I was, another friend was a journalist from Ireland and he ended up writing a book about Obama’s presidency and I, I see them actually doing things, whereas I think that people in the bar are still at the bar.

[00:29:17]

Yeah, yeah, that’s, you know, what was interesting to me. That’s so, so in line with what I experienced was I met my sober bestie. We are 60 days apart in sobriety. I met her in an online group happens to live in Seattle. So we’ve been like, super close since then. And then I wrote an email to Christy Coulter.

[00:29:37]

She wrote, Exit Interview and Nothing Good Can Come From This. She was like, I don’t know, a year plus sober and I had read something that she had written online. And so, I found her email through her blog and was like, Hi, I’m on date. I denied it. I read this thing you wrote and you live in Seattle and I live in Seattle.

[00:29:56]

You know, we both work in tech and my bestie ended up having a dinner party that Christy came to. And another woman was a standup comic and another, you know, it was just like. I don’t hang out with authors. I drink on my couch and don’t remember the TV shows I watch. You know, it’s just, I mean, women and men who quit drinking just do the most interesting things.

[00:30:19]

So, I mean, I think I always, I was, I’ve said this before, but, you know, I always loved writing and I always wanted to be a writer. You know, I was a lawyer and there was a lot of writing in that, but it was certainly. Not the same, but I remember I used to literally sit on a barstool and be like, I’m going to write a book and then I got sober and wrote a book like you can do these things, you know, and when you are similar in that way, right?

[00:30:46]

You both wanted to be writers. Yes. Yeah. Tawny really was a writer because you were a writer coming in. Well, I, you know, I, I, I wrote for my local newspaper when I was in high school.

[00:31:00]

And then that’s, you know, that that’s really how I found my voice. And then, you know, shortly after I, you know, I was doing that for about a year and then, you know, shit happened and I found drugs and alcohol and tons of other self-destructive behaviors.

[00:31:15]

And I really wasn’t doing it. A lot of creative stuff because I was caught in this, you know, bartending party girl drink to you blackout loop. But once I move, I, you know, bought a one way ticket, moved to New York City and I was like, I’m going to do this. I’m going to be a writer in New York City. And I got sober like 5 months after moving here.

[00:31:38]

And it’s, it’s pretty crazy. Like. I’m so grateful that I, I, I don’t have a lot of drinking memories here because I only drank for five months.

So, you know, I, I, I’m not triggered by any parts of the name by any neighborhoods or any parts of New York City. It’s actually quite the opposite. I’m triggered by my hometown and here I’ve met other creative people.

[00:32:03]

I’ve gotten really involved in the art scene and going to theater and going to concerts and stand-up comedy shows. And like, there’s just so much more to do here where, you know, growing up in a small town, there was nothing to do but drink. So, you know, some people like, how did you get, how are you sober in New York city?

[00:32:21]

It’s so crazy there. And I’m like, I think it’s actually quite easy for me. It was very easy for me to get sober here. I think also because I had to separate myself from my partying friends, you know, it was, you know, they, we call it pulling a geographic and recovery, like moving. Moving is not going to solve your problems.

[00:32:41]

Your problems will come with you. But for me, you know, I really did need a change of scenery. It really, it actually did help me.

Yeah. Can I ask how old were you guys when you stopped drinking? I was 30. It was 4 by 30th birthday. I decided to not for that whole year. Nice. I was 38. Tawny and I, I’m 20 years older than Tawny.

[00:33:07]

Yeah. Okay. Very cool.

Yeah, I was 40. It was in my 40th year that I stopped. It’s a common age for women. Late 30s, early 40s is sort of when, if we’re going to make that change, when we sort of get to the end.

Yeah, I remember I was like, throw, it wasn’t the day I quit, but it was like within the week I was like on vacation with my family in Arizona in this fancy resort and I had a 2 year old and an 8 year old and I was in my bathroom of the hotel trying to throw up red wine really, really quietly so they wouldn’t hear me and there’s nothing like being on your knees and like, just being like, this isn’t as cute as it used to be at 40 years old.

[00:33:52]

I literally, Casey, I had that conversation with myself the day I decided to stop drinking. I looked in the mirror.

[00:34:00]

I was like, my face was puffy and red and I had last night’s mascara like flaking onto my cheeks and I looked in the mirror and I go. This isn’t cute anymore. It’s just, you know, you can get away with being a party girl when you’re 25, but like, I was like, all right, you’re, you’re about to turn 30.

[00:34:20]

Like, what do you, what do you want? Like, what else do you want out of life? And it was, you know, it was a very humbling moment.

Yeah. When you guys talked about experiencing joy, I feel Tawny, like you. You talked a lot about the things you do to experience joy now and to have different interests. If someone’s just starting out and they are in that really shaky time of early sobriety where most of their friends are drinking buddies, what do you think, like, in the deck are there ideas where they could start to, you know, take those first tentative steps out?

 

[00:35:00]

Yeah, I think, you know, the, the knowing yourself section and also the relationships section, you know, there’s in the relationship section, there’s a lot of prompts where it kind of asks you to take inventory of who you’re around when you’re drinking. Just, just being aware of like, you know, okay, when I hang out with this person, I blackout or, you know, this person.

[00:35:24]

Always, I try to not drink, but this person tells me just have one, you know, I think taking inventory of, of the people in your life can be huge.

Yeah, what, what would you add to that, Lisa?

I think when you’re shaky and you’re trying to experience, you want to experience some joy and take a load off. I think you can go.

[00:35:44]

Right into those cards. And do any of the things in there. I mean, a lot of what it is giving yourself permission to go gently with yourself. Right? And so, like, I know for me, it was very hard for me to.

[00:36:00]

You know, sit on the couch and watch the HBO Saturday night movie when everybody, when my friends were still out running around, right?

[00:36:10]

But to be able to say, you know what? I’m going to. I’m going to run a really hot bath now. I’m going to do that. And I’m in a drawback on, I’m going to look back, like, look what I’m doing. This is not what I’m not doing tonight. But look what I’m doing here. A lot of it is, we come in like, I know I had so much shame around my drinking and so much.

[00:36:33]

I had a ton of self-hatred. I had no self-esteem left by the end and to be able to go. You know what? Yeah. We’re home on Saturday night. Oh, you know, alone, taking a bath, watching a movie. And, and that’s a really, that’s really something to be proud of. Like I’m able to, I’m doing this thing and you’re allowed, it like goes back to like, we didn’t get sober to be miserable.

[00:36:56]

And, you know, you’re allowed to say you’re, first of all, you’re allowed to feel crummy if that’s how you feel and, you know, get all those things out and acknowledge them, but also remind yourself. That, you know, you’re doing, you know, you’re doing something that is, is hard, but it’s good and it’s going to, you know, pay off later.

[00:37:19]

For me, I was very much, when I was shaky, I was like, I need food and I know, I was smoking when I got sober and I said to my sponsor, I was like, I’m going to quit smoking too. And she was like, Oh no, you’re not. No, no. She was like, you know. One year, you can look at that in one year. And so I stopped feeling guilty about smoking, right?

[00:37:44]

All I had to do was just not pick up a drink today, period. And so, you know, if you’re going through it and you still need your cigarettes or you still, you know, you really get through that by eating junk food one night in front of the, like, knock yourself out, be kind to yourself. As long as you’re not drinking, you win, right?

[00:38:05]

Yeah. Absolutely. This conversation also reminds me of the first chapter of my book. The first chapter is called, Dating Yourself. And, you know, because the book’s about sober dating and relationships, so, I’m not the first person to say this, that, like, you can’t Fall in love with someone else. If you’re not falling in love with yourself, right?

[00:38:24]

Every, every, every dating book says that where mine is different is like, if you can’t fall in love with yourself without alcohol. And so really figuring out who you are without alcohol, which is why, you know, Lisa and I are, are advocates for, you know, embrace your hobbies. Figure out like, what are, what are your interests?

[00:38:44]

You know, for years, my interests. We’re just getting fucked up. That’s it. And so if you can lean into your hobbies, volunteer, go just go do something different. Go to the museum for an afternoon instead of going to happy hour or instead of sitting on your couch. Just do different things. Try new things.

[00:39:06]

You’re going to understand yourself on a totally different level, and you know, you don’t have to be completely sober to do that either. This could be during a dry month. It could be during a damp month where you’re moderately drinking. A lot of people don’t take that time to get to know themselves, you know, when you’re on a date.

[00:39:25]

You’re asking someone, Oh, where are you from? What are your interests? What are your goals? To me, dating yourself is asking yourself those questions. And we just, we, we often just don’t do that.

Yeah. Yeah. We also, another thing that, that I started to do was like, think about the money I was saving. Oh, yes.

[00:39:45]

And be willing to, you know, treat myself. In a way that I wouldn’t have spent money on things before as like a you know, I know a friend of mine when she got sober, she just started throwing every night. She didn’t go out. She threw like 20 bucks in a jar or whatever, and she ended up buying herself a bite.

[00:40:06]

But yeah, you know, those kinds of things, like I love those sobriety calculators. I think I saved over 500 my first month, not drinking. And so now I checked the other day, I’ve saved over 50, 000. My husband would tell you I spent all of that. Yes, but I’ve not spent it on alcohols. Yeah, but in principle, I’ve saved that money.

[00:40:30]

Yeah. Exactly. But you can do, I mean, I joined a gym with childcare and like a really nice steam room and a hot tub. And I did laps in the pool and, you know, just very chill things that felt great. I mean, you can get a lot of massages for 500 bucks. Yes. Yes.

Yeah, so one other thing I was, I was wondering about is you talk about triggers and how to manage some of those triggers in the cards.

[00:41:00]

What, what are the biggest triggers that you see women facing in the beginning? And do you have any ideas for how to manage those or navigate them or avoid them? The biggest ones I think, Oh, go ahead. The biggest ones I think are Halt, and we mentioned Halt a couple times in the cards, and Halt is the idea of don’t get hungry, angry, lonely, or tired if you can avoid it.

[00:41:29]

And, you know, we can avoid those things, right? But we can, when they hit, we can recognize, oh, Why am I feeling I need a drink? Why is that? I’m hungry or I’m exhausted. You know, I, for me, food and, and, and hunger and tired are the worst for me. And being able to say, oh, I get it. I didn’t sleep all last night.

[00:41:55]

And so, you know, what I’m going to. I’m going to address that and understand, just understanding when something triggers like, Oh, that’s a trigger. That’s why I’m feeling this way because I’m tired. And so tonight I’m really going to try to get some sleep. Or just even having a thing to point at instead of I need a drink, right?

[00:42:14]

Yeah. Instead of going, Oh, I, I think I need a drink because I’m tired, but I don’t really need a drink. Yeah, definitely. What about you, Tawny? What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I was, I, I agree with everything Lisa said, and I’ll, I’ll speak a little bit from, you know, just a sober dating and relationships perspective.

[00:42:34]

If you find that, you know, maybe the person that you’re in a relationship with might be triggering you in some way you’re not alone in that at all. If you find that, you know, that’s why earlier I said, you know, take note of who encourages you to drink and who doesn’t respect your time off alcohol.

[00:42:55]

Those are huge triggers, huge identifiers. And when it’s a roommate or a live in partner, Yeah. That really presents a lot of challenges. So, you know, this is where boundaries come in, where, you know, if you’re living, if you’re doing, if you’re newly sober. And you’ve got to figure out a way like what makes you feel comfortable in your home.

[00:43:21]

Are you comfortable with your partner drinking in the house? Are you comfortable with alcohol in the house at all? You know, if they go out and they and they come home drunk. Maybe it’s best that you sleep on the couch so you’re not triggered, you know, maybe you don’t want to kiss your partner if they’ve been drinking, you know, these are, these are really, these are really, really you know, we think of simple things like kissing your partner, but if that’s a trigger, you need to, you need to know that because if kissing someone for me, kissing someone that tastes like whiskey made me want whiskey.

[00:43:57]

You know, so I couldn’t date people who drank whiskey. I just, I couldn’t, I date, I dated people who still drank, but I was like, I can’t kiss you if you’ve had whiskey. That was just my personal thing. So, you know, it’s going to be so different for everyone, but really this, this is why I do it. It’s so important to, you know, date yourself, get to know yourself, because you have to identify your triggers before you could even set these boundaries.

[00:44:23]

You know, we talk like set boundaries, set boundaries. But we don’t, no one really knows what that looks like. You know, you have to advocate for yourself. You have to take a stand for who you are and what you want out of your life and then communicate those boundaries with other people. It’s who that’s, that’s where it gets real.

[00:44:42]

That’s where it’s like, you know what? I love you and I want to go to your birthday party tonight, but I just, I don’t think I could be in a bar. Like, can I take you to lunch next week? Yeah. And your real friends will be like, absolutely take care of yourself. Let’s get lunch next week. And your drinking buddy will reply with, Oh, come on, just, just come out.

[00:45:03]

You know, it won’t be the same without you. That’s not your real friend. Yeah, yeah, I mean I remember in early sobriety. Actually I still don’t. Like I had to tell my husband that I needed no wine in the house. Cause I was a huge wine drinker and he only drank wine with me. So there needed to be no wine in my house at all.

[00:45:26]

I don’t think our first. Two months we went on a date to, like, an Italian restaurant because I love drinking red wine at an Italian restaurant. At one point he suggested a brewery and I was like, how about this coffee shop with live music? Or I’d go to sushi because I didn’t like sake. Like, all these different things that had to kind of be altered and shifted just because it would be too hard for me.

[00:45:53]

Yeah. And that’s okay. You know, it’s okay to ask for that. And I think until we get, that’s why we, you know, really think it’s so important to know yourself, get comfortable yourself, you know, with yourself because, and like you said, like you brought up, know your triggers because that’s where you set the boundary.

[00:46:11]

And I love, you know, that you had and have a husband who’s so supportive of all of this. I’d say that the one time I opened my fridge and there, I was a red wine girl, but there was this bottle of white wine in my fridge and I was like, what the fuck? And then I didn’t say anything for like an entire day because I was just like, I felt like it was invading my space.

[00:46:33]

And the second that I opened it, I went to my husband. I was like. What is this? Like, why is this in the fridge? We talked about it and he took it out, like drank the entire bottle on the front porch and I was just like, so pissed at him. I was going to kill him and he is a fantastic guy. I just like, in that moment, wanted to rig his neck, you know?

[00:46:53]

Cause I was like, I see it as him helping you. He’s getting it out of the house. He’s helping you. Why did he put it there? No, I put it in the fucking garbage and drink a beer. Like what the hell?

Yeah, I don’t think it’s also worth noting like just talking about triggers Lisa and I recently learned the term glimmers, which is the opposite of a trigger.

[00:47:17]

So identifying, you know, the people places and things that make you feel safe. The people, places, and things that make you feel comfortable and that you can really be yourself around. That’s I think that’s just as important as, you know, identifying the, what triggers you.

Yeah. Like who brings out the best version of yourself and spend more time with them.

[00:47:41]

Yeah. And, and the glimmer, too, is like, so you can just come across something. I know sometimes I’ll walk by somewhere and I love the smell of patchouli, but it’s not going to be all over my house, but when I walk by and I’ll smell some patchouli, I’ll be like, Oh, you just get a little hit of joy, like when you least expect it and paying attention to those and going, Oh, that was like a glimmer.

 

[00:48:03]

That was, that was good.

Yeah, and we need this is like you go ahead. This Lisa, this is like, tell me you’re a dead head without telling me you’re a dead head. This is like, I love a lot of people would be like, brings back really good memories.

Yeah, I was going to say, talking about HALT, like getting hungry, huge trigger and I used to like keep in my bag things like trail mix or peanut M&M’s or just like break glass in case, case of emergency foods, like I had peanut butter and rice cakes, like just in my drawer at work because You know, I would need to eat something before I left.

And in terms of being lonely, I was a real, I liked being around people I was always the person who would like sit at the bar with my book and drink and read just because I liked all the people around me and like, And so, I used to go to coffee shops with magazines just to still get that like life around me and then I don’t even have a dog but I would go to an off leash dog park that was right near my office and just walk around and smile at everyone and talk to them about their dogs like it just made me happy without being like, okay, I’m going to go to a bar and chat with the person next to me.

[00:49:24]

I love that. And it’s, you know, it’s. Lisa knows dog parks are like my number one glimmer. I take my dog to the dog park twice a day. She has friends. I’ve never had a dog who had friends before, like she’s like, I need to go see Milky Way and Oswald. Like, let’s go. And it’s, it’s so cute. Like it makes me so happy to see these dogs just playing and having fun.

[00:49:50]

You know, it’s just, you have to find those things too.

Yeah, and pets are great. I got kittens like maybe a year in and just watching their little bodies go down the steps I was like it made me smile every time so pets are good for feeling lonely, too. Well, so I love your deck. I told you that there’s so much in here.

[00:50:11]

If people were to get it, what do you think is the best way for them to use it or, you know, incorporate it into their lives? I think they can do it however works for them, really. I mean, I think sometimes it’s, it can be fun to sort of pull a card each day, maybe randomly and just, Give that like, it’s almost like a little meditation in the morning of something to think about and keep in mind for the day or a little buck up or you know, people have been pulling cards.

[00:50:45]

Tawny, you’ve been in situations now where people are pulling cards together.

Yeah. Yeah, I was at a dinner party like a month ago, like right when the deck came out and I brought a friend to the deck and people were just passing the deck around the dinner table pulling cards and it just, it’s, it’s, it launched some really, you know, interesting conversation and not everyone at the table was sober.

[00:51:10]

Which I loved because I, it showed me that these prompts can actually be really helpful regardless of your relationship with alcohol. And something that I do with my tarot cards that I encourage people to do with the sobriety deck is if you pull a card and it’s really just hitting you and you’re like, Oh, I want to.

 

[00:51:29]

I want to like, let that marinate for a bit, take a picture and make it the wallpaper on your phone and that way it’s like it’s there and you can think about it for a couple days or, you know, put it in your pocket, text it to a friend, you know, I’m journaling about these prompts right now, you know, do you want to do this together?

 

[00:51:47]

Lisa and I are big advocates for any way you could involve community in any way.

You cannot be alone. We’re, we’re all for that.

Yeah, and also, if you’re, you know, we try to address the various situations someone could find themselves in, so if you’re going to a party for the first time, you know, you’re on your own, you need, you want to, need to show up, and you know, people are going to be drinking and you’re not drinking, there is a card just that, on ice breakers, and, you know, Tony put in that card, like, literally take, put this in your back pocket when you go to this party, just ways to, you know, You know, make yourself more at home in that situation when you go, or if you’re having a challenge with, you know, a coworker, which happens all the time, there’s specific cards on work, like, you know, how dealing with difficult colleagues, family stuff. If you’re going to a difficult family, you know, party, holiday, whatever it is, you know, maybe flip through some of those, just for a little refresh.

[00:52:51]

It’s like a good refresher for start. Taking care of yourself. They really are about taking care of yourself and, and supporting yourself through, so it’s sort of a go-to when you have a specific question.

 

But it can also be more in pulling of like a little bit of a practice, like, yeah, Bonnie was saying, I like the idea of like pulling a card a day as a, as a good reminder, and then kind of going back to the ones that you need at specific times.

[00:53:21]

And the different cards are going to speak to you on different days.

Just like tarot cards, like I’ve pulled all these cards many times, but I noticed something different each time about the cards, you know, you notice a different, different piece of symbolism or it triggers a different memory and it’s just, just let yourself have fun and explore it and, and see what comes up.

[00:53:43]

And I’ve even, I’ve had several therapists tell me that they’re using these with their clients and that is, that is like the best compliment to us, you know, like knowing that we’ve created a resource that mental health professionals are using just means the world to us.

Yeah, I think it’s a great gift to give people who are, you know, in sobriety, whether it’s like, you know, they’re interested, or maybe it’s their soberversary, or they hit 30 days or whatever.

 

[00:54:17]

It’s just a really fun gift. And I’ll put pictures of it in the show notes. Or, of course, you can go to, I’ll ask you where to buy them. But it is beautiful, like, truly, truly.

Thank you. Really nice to have around, like I love the art. I love the colors. So, it is a great gift if you have a friend who’s doing this thing too.

[00:54:38]

I agree, Casey. So where can people find it? Find you. Follow up.

Yeah. My website’s tawnylara.com. It actually goes directly to my newsletter. That’s, that’s where, that’s my favorite corner of the internet. I’m not on social media much these days. And our, our podcast is called Recovery Rocks. New episodes every Friday.

[00:55:00]

We talk about recovery and rock and roll, our two favorite things.

My drink is called, parentheses. It’s a non-alcoholic fermented spirit that my husband and I co-founded. And my book’s called Dry Humping.

Nice. And Lisa and my website is lisasmithadvisory.com and it’s got links with to that, my book, all of that, but it’s also on, you can go to the Penguin Random House page that has all the links to all the different places carrying it.

[00:55:29]

It’s in a lot of Barnes and Nobles. It’s on Amazon. You can pretty much order it anywhere you’d order a normal book.

Awesome. Can I also add one thing? A lot of people have asked, like, how can we support your deck? How, like, what can we do? How can we support the, get this into more hands?

[00:55:50]

You could ask your local bookstore if they carry it. And if they don’t, ask them to carry it. That is the best way to help an author.

I will just say, ask local bookstores to carry their, their books. Can it just, then it’s going to help other people see that it exists. And it just, it helps lift the community, you know.

[00:56:12]

That’s a great idea. So I will have links to all of this, our previous episodes. I think I’ve talked to both of you each individually and about Recovery Rock. So I will link to that. in the show notes and all the links that Lisa and Tawny talked about. This is going to be episode 252.

[00:56:37]

So, if you want to find all the links and you’re listening somewhere else, you can just go to hellosomedaycoaching.com/252, and you’ll find it all there. Thank you guys so much. It was great to talk to you again.

Oh, thank you. This was wonderful. It’s so great to talk to you again.