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SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Kelley Kitley

00:02

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Hey there, this is Casey. Welcome back. I’m excited about our episode today because it’s something that comes up with so many women I talk with, which is if your partner was your drinking buddy, if you’ve been drinking together for years, how will your relationship, how will parenting, how will intimacy change once one of you decides to stop drinking?

 

My guest today is Kelley Kitley. And she and I have very similar stories in terms of our marriages, our partnerships, our drinking, and when we stopped drinking. So, I thought this would be a really interesting conversation.

 

[00:02:00]

She’s a licensed clinical social worker and owns Serendipitous Psychotherapy. She’s written an award-winning Amazon bestselling autobiography MY Self, and produced a short film Gray Area adapted from the book. It’s won 12 awards for social change. She’s a go-to national mental health expert and has contributed to over 700 TV segments.

She’s a wife of over 20 years, has 4 teenagers and has been alcohol-free for 12 years. S,o congratulations and welcome.

Thank you so much for having me. It’s great to be here.

Well, so to start off, why don’t you just tell us a little bit about you and your story?

Sure. So, I’m a licensed clinical social worker and knew at a young age that I wanted to be a therapist because therapy was very healing for me in my journey as a teenager.

 

[00:03:00]

And I joke and say my, my story is that I grew up above my parents’ bar and you can kind of fill in the pieces from there. I’m the oldest of 5 and met my husband at my parents’ bar. He was in grad school and I was bartending putting myself through undergrad and we had an immediate connection and a friendship and we got married. We’ll celebrate 21 years in October and have 4 teenagers, as you mentioned, 19, 17, 15 and 13. So, wow. It is more than I could have ever imagined. But my, my primary work is as a psychotherapist and, wrote a book about 7 years ago after I got sober. And I knew I always wanted to write a book.

And this piece that I just could not finish was the piece about alcohol. My story, you know, I grew up in a family of addiction and struggled with an eating disorder and a history of childhood sexual abuse.

[00:04:00]

And so, these were things that I worked on in my own therapy, and the drinking was always this undertow. And so, it wasn’t until I got sober that I felt like I could really tell my story then. And so, my husband is a Chicago actor, and after the book came out, we produced a short film called Gray Area, which is a piece of the book. And I showcase it traveling around the world, talking about women’s mental health and alcohol abuse. And it’s 18 minutes, people can find it on YouTube. I say it. It’s similar to the movie when a man Loves a Woman with Meg Ryan. That was made in 1994 and I feel like not a whole lot has been made since then.

So, yeah. To have that visual tool is just so powerful in storytelling. Your story sounds really similar to mine in terms of the age we were when we met our partners.

I met my husband when I was 22.

[00:05:00]

So very quickly after I graduated college, they ended up hiring a bunch of like 30 kids into this Consulting Firm who had just graduated.

And so, we spent a lot of our early twenties working late nights and going out to bars and getting together. And then, our drinking just sort of continued based on whatever phase we were in life. So, it went from, you know, going out to bars in DC in our twenties to drinking on kayak camping trips in Seattle in mid-twenties or dinner parties with all of our friends and couples and all the wine bottles flowing and then straight to the mommy wine culture.

I’m curious, so you quit. If you stopped drinking 12 years ago when your kids were pretty young. How young were they when you stopped drinking? 6, 4, 2 and 9 months. Okay. And that was really significant in giving up drinking for me. You know, I had drank and, and that parallel component with the progression and just the lifestyle with my husband.

 

[00:06:00]

I mean, I wasn’t even 21 yet and I was working at the bar. And he’s about six years older than I am. But you know, the same thing. Binge drinking and that went to, you know, drinking in our twenties and then having four small kids and drinking at home and balancing career. And it was just really a chaotic time in, in our life.

And it was welcomed. We both are. Come from large families and knew we wanted a large family. But, you know, struggling with postpartum anxiety and panic, I used alcohol to self-medicate and self-soothe.

 

And I had this moment in my kitchen when my husband was at work and I had just come home from work and the kids were so young and I was thinking I was drinking wine. And I was like, at some point they’re going to need rides to activities and help with homework. And I. I couldn’t imagine not drinking. And I, I remember so clearly that moment.

[00:07:00]

And I wasn’t planning on giving up drinking at that time. It just kind of serendipitously happened when my best friend had gotten sober a few months before I did.

 

So, I remember having that snapshot of a thought, and then she told me she had stopped drinking and I saw her life just come together in this peaceful way. And I just admired that and wanted that. And she took me to my first meeting and I didn’t plan on not drinking when we had the conversation.

 

And she just suggested going to a meeting with her and I did. And it was an all-women’s meeting and I haven’t drank since then. And that was March 10th 2013.

That’s amazing because you don’t hear it that often in terms of having it be something that you want, right. That you saw in her, the change that she was making and how she was enjoying alcohol-free life and wanting that.

 

[00:08:00]

Before that, were there moments where you were like, oh shit, I need to stop drinking. This isn’t going well. I made it sound so easy. The, I know. I was like, damn, it was not, I be more like on my knees throwing up red wine moments.

Yeah. No, no, no, no. The Witch is so wild that I gave up drinking when I gave up drinking because I had so many rock bottoms of, you know, evaluating my drinking, being fearful that I was going to become an alcoholic because of what I saw in my own family.

 

Studied addiction in Grad School. Like I was constantly trying to dodge the bullet. But the way you know, I would always give up drinking for like 40 days of lent, or I’d try Dry January and I never had a hard time giving it up. It was once I started drinking again is when the disaster came and I was white knuckling it throughout the, the times that I didn’t drink and I didn’t drink during four years of pregnancy, you know?

[00:09:00]

Yeah. But yeah, I was monitoring, trying to manage and control my drinking for about 20 years.

Yeah. Yeah, that, that was very similar to me in terms of trying to drink less or get it under control or take breaks or, and then at the same time, keep it in my life and make sure nobody knew I was worried about it and do all the things.

I’m curious, what did your husband think when you went to that first meeting and decided that you were done drinking?

 

Well, you know, the, the morning I, I told my girlfriend I would go to a, a meeting with her. We were at a CrossFit class and I was so hungover. It was like mid burpee and I felt like I was going to throw up and we finished the class and she just said, oh, hey, I just wanted to check in.

How’s your drinking been? ’cause she’s somebody that I had confided in, drank similarly as I did. We behaved similarly when we were out together, which was just, you know, dancing on bars and saying inappropriate things and regretting things and trying to piece thing conversations back together the next day.

[00:10:00]

And I just started crying and it like started pouring rain and she’s like, well, you could go to a meeting with me if you want. And I was like, but I have all these open bottles of wine in my fridge and I have to drink ’em first before I stop drinking. And she’s like, or you could dump ’em out. And I was like, ah, I’ll think about it.

 

And I drove home and there was all this like nostalgic music playing on the radio and I got home and I walked in the door and I just said to my husband. I think I need to stop drinking. I’m going to go to an AA meeting. And he was like, whoa, wait a second. Like, that’s a little extreme. Yeah. Or you could try drinking less.

And I just said, you know, I’ve tried and, you know, I, I don’t like the way that I behave and I have so much regret and I’ve said inappropriate and mean things to him. And when I was drinking and we fought because of me picking fights when I was drunk, so I think he was shocked but he said, do whatever you need to do.

[00:11:00]

And you know, I started going to Sunday morning meetings and he was, would take the kids and I would go out for coffee and breakfast with other women who were giving up alcohol as well. And that was such a healing time for me. But it, it was so dichotomous. ’cause here I felt so good about what I was doing, but struggled in terms of how it was going to impact my marriage and how it was going to impact my friendships. People said to me, Kelley, if you’re, if you think you have a problem with alcohol, then I have a problem with alcohol. I think you’re too hard on yourself and you’re being so extreme and you know, so it was really hard for me to like know what I needed to do and then not get that reinforcement from other people.

Yeah. They were discouraging you, they were from doing that because you were like holding up a mirror to their own drinking.

[00:12:00]

Absolutely. Yeah. And it’s pretty amazing that you had a friend though. I mean, that must have made things so much easier. It made things so much easier. And we, this is a girlfriend of mine who I met my freshman year of high school and we grew up in Chicago.

And so, we joke that, you know, at age I think 15 or 16, we had a fake ID and we were going to bars in Chicago and drinking in alleys with older boys and, you know, just similar trajectory in terms of our drinking. And then, to be in our mid-thirties and, and be walking this line of sobriety together was just amazing.

Yeah, and the ripple effect of it, you know, it started there. She, she influenced me. A couple years later, one of my other good friends got sober, my brother got sober. So it is contagious, I think, when we live a life of sobriety and recovery and kind of model that for other people.

 

[00:13:00]

I think other people realize that their worst case scenario actually looks pretty good, and the fact that they personally know someone who’s like, yes, I love drinking as much as you did, and I stopped, and it’s better.

Yeah, sort of gives them permission to not be so terrified about it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you used the word, you know, normie in terms of the way your husband drinks and, and the way, and, and you having given it up too, which is so similar in our stories of, you know, when you have a relationship that’s built around socializing and drinking, when one person in the relationship decides to give that up, it can be terrifying.

 

Like, what do we do and how do we, I remember being like, should we like go bowling? Or like, oh my gosh, yes. You know? Even then you, we drink when we bowl, you know, I used to sit around and think like. What do people do who they don’t drink? Do they just sit around in silence, staring at each other?

[00:14:00]

Like literally, that’s what I thought, and I was like, oh.

Or we could do the same thing we always did, and I could just have a non-alcoholic option of my drink of choice, but it, it felt like it was all or nothing. Either I drank or my social life would be totally over forever.

Yeah, that was so much of the thinking around everything. I, I feel like when I was drinking and how that carried over into different behaviors of mine.

But you know, I mean, it actually, and I can sit here today, you know, 12 and a half years sober and say, gosh, it strengthened our relationship. But I was terrified that first year. You know, my parents got divorced when my mom got sober, and my dad continued to drink and I thought the same thing would happen in my marriage. But, but that was a fear in your mind, that if you stopped drinking you would get divorced? Absolutely. I thought it was kind. If I did that, that was, would be the result because I felt, and my husband is x, is not my father and was extremely supportive and didn’t.

[00:15:00]

Yeah. You know, question my decision other than wanting to get curious about it, you know, and tell me more.

But yeah, that first year of just like he said, he lost his drinking buddy and, Not all.

My drinking was bad. We had a lot of fun times.

Yeah. Yeah. So, what would that look like? You know, he didn’t sign up for that when we got married. We had a really good time, you know, and we met in a bar and so, be having to navigate that and, and go to couples counseling to figure out, you know, how our relationship was going to evolve and change.

 

And I hate to say rules, but you know, there were. I didn’t ask him to remove alcohol from the home when I stopped drinking. But certainly some boundaries around, you know, being intimate when he was under the influence or having alcohol in the bedroom or out in the open and things like that. And it’s like, it’s whiplash, you know?

 

[00:16:00]

Yeah. Especially in the beginning. Well, I think this is really interesting and I think a lot of women listening to this would. Want to know more because it does change your relationship when you stop drinking, even if your spouse thinks you have an issue. But you know, in my case, and it sounds somewhat similar to you, you know, my husband definitely, I definitely drank more than he probably would’ve liked. I didn’t talk to him about it a ton. I was worried about my drinking, but I never really expressed to him how much it weighed on me. And whenever he mentioned anything, I was pretty defensive about it. I kind of shut down that conversation pretty quickly. But he did not want to stop drinking. Full stop. He never asked me to. He didn’t want me to. He, like you said, we had a lot of fun drinking. I mean, he was like, maybe you shouldn’t open bottle of number two on a Tuesday night, you know? Or it would be nice if you didn’t, you know, quote unquote fall asleep on the couch and I can’t wake you up. A.k.a. passed out.

[00:17:00]

But he didn’t necessarily want me to stop drinking. He just wanted me to have an off switch, which I think it’s funny when you’re like, oh, he just wants you to cut back. It’s like. Fuck, why didn’t I think of that for the last decade? Attempting to cut back, right? Like right, right. Or I should’ve just tried that.

Or to just be like, well, you could drink on like special occasions, or like when we go on vacation. Yeah. I’m like, oh, that’s adorable. That’s adorable that you think like we, we could pick and choose these options. Right, right.

Yeah. But I think But somebody doesn’t have a problem. That makes sense. Right? I know.

I know. Well, so let’s talk about it. I want you to share, and then, I’ll kind of share how it played out in, in my marriage.

 

But you said, you went to couples counseling. You said you, you put down some boundaries and rules. What did that look like? Plus you were in a 12 step program. I wasn’t. So, tell me what your path was in early sobriety and how that shifted your marriage and then I’ll, I’ll share mine.

 

[00:18:00]

Yeah. So, you know, I think. Something that was, was hard to navigate that I, as a therapist here both sides of it from, from partners in terms of the person who’s going to the meetings and the person who is at home and, and still drinking. You know, it’s like, okay, well you were so focused on your drinking now you’re so focused on your recovery.

And it’s like, where do I fit in? And so. For my husband Ryan, it was like, yeah, I was going to meetings, I was, you know, stepping out on the back porch and taking calls from other women who were either sponsoring me or who I was talking to in the program. You know, I would want to leave parties early.

[00:19:00]

I mean, I putting myself in his shoes and that huge behavior change. He was extremely patient, even though at the time it was so frustrating for me. And so trying to incorporate him into my sober life, probably not until a year after I was learning what to do and how this worked and getting through all my firsts, was I able to share that with him.

And I had invited him to open meetings. He had come to a couple. It was pretty weird. And. You know, I had suggested Al-Anon and at that point it was like I needed to do my thing. He wasn’t really interested in that, but he was interested in going to couples therapy to just talk about how do we navigate this as a couple especially when so much of our history was based on living a life drinking.

Did he actually think you had a quote unquote problem or, you know, because when I first went, I did try AA for about 4 months. It wasn’t my path. I went back to drinking after that and, and stopped drinking a different way. But my husband thought that I was overreacting or being kind of dramatic or like, what?

[00:20:00]

What? Like what? Now you’re, now you’re an Alcoholic Anonymous. Like, what the hell just happened? Right?

Yes. If you are high functioning, I think, and I hate to use that qualifier, but nobody knows our suffering inside. And Yes. When other people are viewing, you know, and that’s why I use my platform to kind of break that stigma and why you do the podcast too, right? It’s not what we thought or what I thought was homeless, divorced, you know, not working, not able to get out of bed looking disheveled.

No, I was high functioning. I was at the top of my career. I had 4 healthy, wonderful children. A good marriage, you know, like to everybody else, they’re like, what?

Yeah, so he, I felt like I had to convince him, almost like I came to him with like, well remember this time and this time, and he’d be like, oh yeah. Oh, I do remember that.

[00:21:00]

But once he started recognizing how much my change was so positive for. Us and for the family. He didn’t question it, but that initial, like trying to convince him that I thought I had a problem and I think we just removed it.

’cause even still, like, I’ll have family members who will be like, well, you’re not really an alcoholic, right? Like, you just stop drinking. And I’m like, call it what you want. But for me it became a problem. You know? Yeah. And I think it’s helpful if we remove the label because I spent so much time thinking, am I an alcoholic? Am I not? I took the quiz online, you know, how many of these do you identify with? And it was like once I removed, trying to figure out if I was or wasn’t, that’s when I was able to give up drinking.

I totally agree. I don’t label myself an alcoholic. I didn’t end up getting sober through a 12 step program.

 

[00:22:00]

I just say like, I used to love drinking and I stopped and I feel better. So, you know, on this program, I say sober, usually I, when talking to people are just like, I don’t drink anymore. I quit drinking. I know there are a million different labels, but I think whatever one lets you try life without alcohol and see how you feel without it is the one you should go with and the one that keeps you debating and not even taking the first step to get support to even go 30 days alcohol-free.

 

That’s the one you should ditch. Mm-hmm. I agree. Well, so I want to, I want to ask you about the positive changes that you said your husband kind of came around when he saw the benefits to you and him and your family. Can you tell me like, when those came about and what they were like? I think, you know, probably within the first 6 months to a year, I wasn’t as anxious.

[00:23:00]

I mean, I still have my character defects, I guess, as we say in, in the program. But, but you know, my personality is who I am and I’m pretty intense with or without alcohol. But I will say that like the anxiety, the being able to show up, follow through the things that I said I was going to do, I was able to follow through on and complete them.

And just a sense of clarity, you know, I think when I was drinking I was pretty angry. Just. There was a switch that happened when I drank and I would lash out and I’d pick fights and you know, I’d wake up the next morning and feel so bad and apologize and, you know, none of that mattered because then I’d start drinking again and it would be the repeated pattern and cycles. And so, I think there was probably a lot of relief for him in not having to go through that, those cycles so frequently.

 

 

If you’re listening to this episode and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®. The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study, sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step-by-step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one-on-one coaching. And The Sobriety Starter Kit® is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it, when it fits into your schedule.  You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time. This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step-by-step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life. You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better, you’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course.

 

[00:24:00]

 

Yeah. You know, but he needed to trust. That takes a while after the behavior that I was engaging in. So like being able to continuously prove myself in a way of like what I say I’m going to do, I actually do, and that this was sticking.

And that took some time. Yeah. I mean, I think we took different paths in terms of. The way we presented it to our partners. So, for example, the first time I mentioned, I mean it was 12 years ago, it might’ve been right when you were stopping drinking originally 12 or 13. My son was 5, so it was around 2013 the first time.

I decided to stop drinking and I stopped the last time in February, 2016. So ,in 2013 there was not a lot of options out there, like it was kind of AA or nothing else that anyone really knew about. Full stop.

[00:25:00]

So I went to a therapist. Because I was angry and resentful and overwhelmed and, you know, questioning my marriage and just drinking way too much. And found a therapist that specialized in addiction and anxiety and went in there and immediately said, oh, we got to talk about my anxiety. Right? Like, my boss, my husband doesn’t help. I have a five-year-old, like my work schedule, all this stuff, and I drink a bottle of wine at night. And he was like, oh, let’s talk about your drinking.

 

But I was like, no, no, no. Let’s talk about my boss. Like that is what we need to dig into. But he was sober. He had been through the program. He encouraged me to try aa. I was in an online secret Facebook group that was like just starting up, but they, it, there were a bunch of really cool people in there.

And there was a woman my age. Who was 4 months sober and she was going to AA so she took me to my first meeting and I was like, okay, bucket list. Never did this before.

[00:26:00]

You know, like, guess I’ll check, check an AA meeting off my list. And I did go for 4 months. I went to women’s meetings. I went to big book meetings.

Unlike you being Irish Catholic. I am. I used to say, agnostic. I’m actually atheist, and so it just really was like oil and water for me. Oh, I bet, I bet. I just, I know there’s a lot of like, you can work around it, but for me it was like mm-hmm. There were a lot of, oh hell known moments.

And so, anyway, I, of course, also used that as a great reason to go back to drinking. And 2 years later, I stopped again with the help of a sober coach. At the time though, so the second time, first time my husband thought I was overreacting. Mm-hmm. And I wasn’t totally bought in, which I think he definitely sensed and played off of.

As well. Yeah. And the second time, I didn’t tell him I got a sober coach, so I just told him I was doing a hundred day no alcohol health challenge, which by the way, he had heard that I was going to stop drinking like a million different times. So, he was like, okay, here we do this again. What do you need?

[00:27:00]

Mm-hmm. But the difference was that time I had all this external support. I had support and I had accountability, and I had steps and I had a process and he didn’t know any of it. But that’s okay. Mm-hmm. So I basically told him I need no wine in the house for 30 days. I need us not to drink together.

Like I don’t, I need to not be around you when you’re drinking. Yes. For at least a month. We didn’t go out to dinner. For the first 40 days. He got a promotion when he was, we went out to dinner with another couple when he, I was about 40 days sober and that was terrifying for me. But, so basically I got all this external support.

I was in these online groups and I had my one-on-one coach. And I was doing work every day with sobriety stuff. He just didn’t know about it. Mm-hmm. But what he experienced was, I was no longer hungover every morning and I was going to bed really early, but not passing out on the couch. I was, you know, definitely more quiet and introspective.

[00:28:00]

But about 30 days in, I kind of was like, Hey, have you noticed anything different about me? And he said, our life is just a lot more peaceful, like our home is more peaceful. It used to be that you would come home and you would be like. Irritated or outraged or, or upset about something or super hyper or super whatever.

And he, you know, he was just like, sometimes I would come home, you know, 30, 40 days alcohol-free, and he’d be like, how was today? And I’d be like, oh, it was fine. And he is fine. Like, usually I’m like the traffic, my boss, this meeting, this deadline, this project, whatever. Mm-hmm. And I was like, yeah, had a couple meetings, moved this forward, walked to Starbucks, had a good conversation, and he was just like.

Okay. Like he was like, what’s happening here? So, it was good. Like he noticed I was happier and healthier and calmer. But all he knew was I was taking a hundred day break.

[00:29:00]

So, he would suggest going to a brewery for a date night and I’d be like, oh babe, I’m still doing my no alcohol challenge. How about this coffee shop?

And I actually thought that was helpful for us ’cause it eased him into it. Like we both have so many fears. How are we going to date? How are we going to have fun? What about the next vacation? You know, are we going to have sex? Like just by easing it in being like, Hey babe. Let’s go to an open mic night tonight because I’m doing my no alcohol challenge and suddenly, I’m 70 days alcohol-free and I’m happier and healthier and look a lot better and less pissed off and less emotional.

 

And he was like, okay, I can see this. Wow. I love that you were able to get that feedback from him, with him not even knowing the journey that you were on, like that just reinforced what you were doing. Yeah, and I thought I was boring and he labeled it peaceful and that was actually a shift that really helped me.

[00:30:00]

I was like, I’m not being boring. I’m calm, I’m content. I’m peaceful. I’m not. So like, the highs and lows of the drinking cycle are crazy. You drink and you’re on this super high, and then you wake up and you’re like, riddled with anxiety, and then you wake up in the morning and you’re like, I’m a piece of shit. What is wrong with me? Like, dragging yourself throughout the day. Yeah, just sort of moving through life on an even keel is shocking. Oh my gosh. The, you’re less erratic and you know, it’s boring – is a word that, you know, I even use sometimes. Now where I’m like. Yeah, it would kind of be nice to like check out sometimes, you know?

Yeah. And not have to like, feel everything and go through everything, you know? I mean, and I think that that’s important to say too, ’cause it’s not like you reach a certain number of years sober and you’re like, I, I’m never going back. This is amazing.

[00:31:00]

You know, it’s like I know today that I, I don’t even think like, oh, maybe I could have one drink.

I know that’s not the truth. I know what that. Like, and it’s ugly and it will be a binge and, and, but it’s like, gosh, it would be so nice sometimes to just think about that. But then as we say, playing the tape forward, it doesn’t look that way after, you know, the first one or two. And I don’t stop at most things after one or two.

So, it, you know, it is now. It’s just such a normal part of our life. Yeah. And raising 4 teenagers who are experimenting with alcohol and seeing one parent that drinks and one that doesn’t. You know, I think that that’s important modeling too, ’cause when I got sober, I didn’t know too many people who didn’t drink, especially women.

So, I didn’t know how to do it. I didn’t know how to go out to dinner. I didn’t know how to go to weddings or concerts or any of those things. And so, you know, I mean, I think the mental health piece of it and the addiction piece of it is.

 

[00:32:00]

Addiction runs rampant in my family. You know, and to me, addiction is, addiction is addiction. Whether it’s alcohol, sex, drugs, shopping, food, you know, that one of four of my kids have a high likelihood that they will develop some kind of addictive behavior. And I think that it’s really important to educate them. About that at a young age, you know? Yeah. And you know, they’ll often joke and be like, you know, now, well, I’ll ask them a question like, oh, were the parents home?

 

Or was there alcohol there? And you know, sometimes they’re like, mom, we’re not like you were when you were a teenager. You know, you’re like, oh, thank God, because that was a story.

Yeah. Seriously. And I’m like, and one of you might be, but you know, just the educational piece about it. And they ask questions. They know I don’t drink and they, you know, celebrate my sober anniversary every year. And yeah. And like the why, why does dad drink? But mom doesn’t. Well, dad doesn’t act different when he drinks the way mom did.

[00:33:00x

Yeah. Well, I want to ask you about that, but before, let’s talk about marriage counseling. So, I have actually, I’ve been to plenty of individual therapy.

 

Mm-hmm. Have never been to couples therapy. My husband, you know, like has that guy like, oh, if I go, I’m going to be the bad guy and x, y, z. Like, just that like thing. So, even when I went to individual therapy, he’d be like, are you talking about me? And I’d be like, oh no babe, we didn’t talk about you at all.

Just talked about work and friends. And I’m like. Dude, of course I talked to like, are you kidding me? Right. But, so I never really pushed for him to go to therapy. But I’m curious what your experience was. ’cause it sounds like it was really worthwhile and important in early sobriety. It was, and I guess I’m just such a therapy guru because I’m a therapist.

You’re a therapist. Yeah. You know, whether it’s group therapy, family therapy, individual therapy, couples therapy.

[00:34:00]

But it just made sense. ’cause there was a, you know, dynamics shifted in, in the marriage and then also the deeper understanding of like my why and his frustrations and you know, I mean, he had his own resentments about who I was when I was drinking and to be able to, I mean, I hate to say.

Like, use a sports analogy, but it is, it’s like you have a referee who’s like, wait, pause, did you hear what he just said? You know, and like kind of call you out on your stuff. And I think that that’s invaluable. And, and it wasn’t like, I mean, I showed up being like, oh my gosh, I don’t know if his marriage is going to work.

But he was showing up. Or at least he told me he was as like a, I want to understand this, I want to learn and work on this together and grow together. And there’s so much underneath all of that stuff. When you stop drinking, it’s not about the drink, you know? And so I think, yeah, he was willing and open, which is why the marriage worked and, and why he was willing to go to therapy.

[00:35:00]

Yeah. So, it was like, well, I’m going if you want to join me, you know, I need to go anyway. But we had also been through some other things, like I was sexually assaulted in my twenties and it was a random act of violence on the streets of Chicago. And he came with me to my individual therapy to understand how to support me there.

So, it just seemed like a natural solution or support in navigating our relationship through things we had been through throughout.

 

No, I think that’s amazing. I actually think that if some, I mean, I’m thinking with my own husband, every, every marriage is different. Like if I could have said to him, oh, I’d love you to come to couples therapy because I’m working through all this stuff, and I want you to understand what I’m doing and why.

He would’ve been like, oh, okay. It’s not about me being the bad guy, it’s about me supporting you and being the good guy, in which case, but I, you know, I of course work with women.

[00:36:00]

I know you do too. And the women I work with, when they’re quitting drinking, I actually had to create this like partner support playbook to be like, Hey, your person has decided to take a break from alcohol.

 

This is awesome. That, you know, like all the questions like. Does this mean you need to stop drinking? Not necessarily. You know, does this mean X? What? What can I do to help? Here’s why. Here’s how she’s going to feel. She will be irritated and sensitive and overwhelmed, and you need to take things off her plate.

And don’t worry that how she acts at two weeks is how she’ll act forever. So in that case, I think that having like a therapist or something to help. Your partner understand how to support you and why this is important to you is really a great idea. It’s something I didn’t do.

[00:37:00]

Mm-hmm. Well, and you said it perfectly, you know, I call it sneak therapy for some of my clients, you know, where it’s like, invite ’em to one of your sessions and just because maybe I, I mean, and there, there’s, it’s not disingenuous. It’s like, no, he is coming to help you talk about whatever you’re going through. And I think a lot of times for men, especially the fear of, oh my gosh, am I going to be in the hotspot? Am I going to be blamed? You know, and it’s like they have this experience hopefully with a therapist and they’re like, oh my God, I actually liked that.

You know, because they, it’s nice to have time to digest what you are working through with someone who’s on your side. Mm-hmm. That’s what therapy is. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And who can reframe it in a way that maybe your unbiased, you know, or I mean that your partner can hear it from an unbiased person? Yes.

[00:38:00]

So I, I think that someone who’s seen, been there and done that and seen a million couples and does not like, isn’t shocked by whatever it is you’re, you’re going through at this moment and can normalize it for you. I mean, I think therapy, I’ve been to lots of therapy. I think it’s incredibly helpful. And also coaching school and coaching.

I mean it’s all very it’s super helpful, but I think it’s cool that you guys did that. You mentioned sort of rules and boundaries and communicating them, like what were the big ones that you wanted or needed to establish in your marriage, and what were the hardest ones for your husband to accept? Hmm.

That’s a great question. You know, I think it was like. The smell for me. You know, if I came home maybe from being out with my sisters or girlfriends for dinner and he was like doing bedtime and, you know, the, all the things at home that we usually did with a drink. You know, that like I didn’t want to kiss him when I came home and like, that feels offensive, you know, for somebody.

[00:39:00]

It’s like, so I think that that was something just in terms of the boundary, the physical boundary, you know? Yeah. Or if he were to go out with guy friends and, and knew that he was going to come home drunk and, you know, crawling in bed and, and just being loud and the smell again, that was very, the smell was really triggering for me to be like, Hey, do you mind sleeping on the couch instead of coming in the room at night?

You know? And that. It doesn’t feel good to somebody else. But I think knowing the why I needed that and how it helped support me, made him feel more open to doing the things that I had asked. Yeah. And you know, I mean, for the first six months, like I would only have sober sex because, you know, and I was dictating a lot of these things because it was about what made me feel comfortable, you know, and I mean, poor Ryan like didn’t really have a whole, a whole lot of say in it.

[00:40:00]

But respected what I needed. And, and there’s still, you know, some boundaries around intimacy and you know, I like morning sex now before, you know, it used to be we’d be out and, you know, come home and, and have sex. But things have changed, you know? Yeah. But I believe it’s for the better. I hope he does too.

I think he does. Yeah. Yeah, and also like we’re not 25 anymore.

Yeah, definitely. Like don’t even talk to me about sex after 9:30 PM like it’s not happening. Just let’s move on. That’s fair enough.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 10 am tomorrow we could talk and I think too, just boundaries around the kids, you know, when you know they know.

I mean, we did just recently have an incident that we were out of town and somebody had a party. But you know, we’ve gone a long time with nobody throwing parties ’cause they know this isn’t a house, that’s a party house because I’m sober, you know?

[00:41:00]

And there are a lot of families that allow underage drinking at their house and parents will buy for the kids or, and, you know, my husband and I are on the same page about all of that as well.

Yeah. You know, it’s funny too. Same thing. So I have a 17-year-old son and he goes to like an independent school that’s fifth through 12th and my daughter goes there too now. But the funny thing is, is that my husband is the head of the middle school there. He’s been an administrator and a teacher at the school for like 25 years.

But the big joke is Hank is like. Dude, I would never bring my friends here to party. And he was like, and they would never come because my dad’s a frigging head of school. Where will you go to school? And my mom’s a sober coach, like, get worse. And I was like, yep. I, I’m okay with that. I’m okay with not being the house host family.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, in terms of those boundaries, I mean, I think it’s, it’s similar and different in because I wasn’t quite so open with my husband.

[00:42:00]

Mm-hmm. So, I was spending a lot of time figuring out exactly what I needed and what I wanted and what would help me with my coach and sharing about things that were triggering to me, like in my groups online.

So, for example, like me coming home from work and having a screaming toddler in the back of the car and. Telling my husband, Hey, this is what’s for dinner and it’s in the fridge and traffic is a nightmare. Felt like that should have been get your ass cookie dinner, right? Mm-hmm. Like this is in my mind, like, Lila’s a nightmare.

I’m starving. There’s chicken in the fridge. Here’s the recipe. So when I walk in the door and he’s sitting there on his. Phone 30 minutes later having done nothing. Mm-hmm. After I had 30 minutes of a kid screaming bloody murder, you know, nothing worse than a 2-year-old. I was like. So outraged and pissed and just desperately wanting to drink slash kill him.

[00:43:00]

And so, you know, instead of blowing that shit up because that would not have been helpful, I was like, you know what? Here’s Lila, I’m starving. I’m taking a timeout. I’m going up to my room and texted all the people who I knew were sober and being like, oh my God, I want to drink so bad and I want to kill him.

So. It was me figuring out what was setting me off and then trying to communicate that in a way of like, here’s what I need. So for us, I mean, I definitely told him like, I need you not to have any wine in the house. Which wine was my thing, right? Like, he’s perfectly happy drinking beer or mixed drinks. I was like, and I’d done this so many times before, like I’m drinking, I’m not drinking, I’m not drinking. But a week later, Hey babe, will you pick up a bottle of wine? Like Guy could not win. He was confused. So I was just like, look, I’m doing a hundred day challenge. It’s going to be really, really hard for me not to drink.

So I need to have no wine in the house, and I need you not to bring any home when I’m grumpy or upset or having a bad day, even if I ask you to.

[00:44:00]

So, he didn’t like being put in the, like, I’m your dad and I’m going to say no. But I was like, I need you to do this for me. Luckily, it did not come to that. I never said Pick me up wine and he said no. ’cause I never asked him to, but I think it was ’cause I had so much outside support. Mm-hmm. But you know, he would suggest going out to dinner, which I didn’t know how to go to a restaurant and not drink. And I would suggest. Going to a movie and a bookstore or, I loved sushi.

And sushi had crap red wine and I never liked saki. So, we would go to sushi a lot. Ah-huh. Or have picnics in the park. Like he would suggest something and I would internally panic. Think it through and then suggest something else that I thought would be better for me. Mm-hmm. So that was part of how it worked.

I think. I also went, started going to bed really early, so I used to rush my daughter through. She was to her nighttime routine.

[00:45:00]

Anxious to get back to my couch with my bottle of wine. And then once I stopped drinking, I would sit up with her, rocking her for like two hours. I would put in my earbud, I would listen to a sober book or podcast or something and just rock her to sleep.

And it was so peaceful, right? This comfy chair, this breathing baby, this sound machine. But I would stay in there for like two hours and then I would be like, I’m going to bed babe, and go straight to my bed. So I think he felt. Like I was ignoring him or that I was not wanting to be around him, which. Was not untrue at that moment.

I mean, I was actually not wanting to be around him and ignoring him, but it was something that I needed to do. And then I just started getting up really early to work out every day. So I think he felt a little ignored and didn’t quite understand why, but I was like, you know what? I’m okay with that. Like this is what I’m doing and I need to turn inward.

[00:46:00]

And you know, later we had this whole discussion and he was like, yeah, I did feel like you were. Kind of just not interested in me at all and not paying attention when he went to bed. But then he is like, in retrospect, you aren’t that interested in me. And there when you were like. Passed out on the couch, either you were just physically near me, like, so it’s interesting right, how that works.

Mm-hmm. And, and I think you bring up really good points in what, in what you’re saying as well, in terms of, you know, the, the, the self-care. Was so important. You know, that like now when he recognizes that I get, I’ll get agitated, he’ll be like, do you want to go for a walk? And then I’ll be like, no, I don’t need to go for a walk.

Where before I’d be like, I need to go for a walk. You know? But, but the encouraging of those things or like, you know, not if, if I’m at the grocery store early on in sobriety, I wouldn’t buy him any alcohol, you know? So now he’ll be like. Oh I’ll just get something later. I’m like, I’m okay being able to pick something up for you at the grocery store.

[00:47:00]

Yeah. You know, I didn’t pick up any beer for Mike for like six months at least, and it was half. I didn’t want to go down the alcohol aisle. Like, I was like, no. And half like. Fuck you. I’m not drinking. If you want to go get it for yourself, like I’m just mm-hmm. I was just kind of bitter about it. Yeah, of course.

I was like, I’m not buying you beer. Like whatever. Yeah. So, I mean, that’s a a lot to navigate, especially when it wasn’t that way before, you know? Yes. Yeah. It is a lot to navigate and, and also one of the things I really want anyone listening to this who is nervous about that, I really encourage you to write down the shit that is happening.

Right now, when you are drinking, like the misunderstandings in your relationship and the waking.

[00:48:00]

You know, for me, waking up early and looking at my bloodshot eyes and not wanting to put on my eyeliner or avoiding my husband or coming up to bed at 3:00 AM and he had shut the door because he couldn’t wake me up on the couch and you know, being all pissed in the morning when he’d ask me how I was feeling, because I know we’re saying, oh, it’s awkward to.

Have that conversation or for your spouse to feel like you’re ignoring them or to say, I won’t buy you drinks at the grocery store. There’s a lot of other shit going on right now too that is, is pulling your relationship in different directions.

And the good news is, once you stop drinking, you start looking better and feeling better and being confident and being able to have honest conversations versus the way I was going when I was drinking, which was just more and more emotional space between us, because I didn’t want him to look at me too closely and I wasn’t being honest about the way I felt. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I mean, and, and like any behavior change, you know, I mean, that’s the business I’m in and it, it’s, it takes time and yeah.

 

[00:49:00]

And if we can communicate that with the people around us as we’re trying to navigate something new, it makes it a little easier.

Yeah. Well, so you mentioned your kids. You have 4 teenagers, which is amazing. I have two kids six years apart, and I could barely handle that. So, I have a 17-year-old and an 11-year-old, but we have a similar situation in that mom is sober and pretty open about it, and both of our spouses drink.

 

Mm-hmm. Sounds like not problematically. My husband doesn’t drink problematically. I was, I was, I was the person. So how do you communicate that, or how do you discuss it with your kids? Well, I, you know, I think they inquisitively asked questions and probably did more so when they were younger, where, you know, they knew that they could come up to me at a family party and take a drink of whatever I was drinking because they knew there wasn’t alcohol in it, but that they wouldn’t do that with dad.

[00:50:00]

But we, you know. Have talked, we call them family meetings. And so at the beginning of the school year, usually we’ll just check in and, you know, talk about different things that might come up in the school year. And you know, I mean, with two kids in high school and a kid in college, the themes are usually around alcohol, drugs, sex, you know?

Yeah. And so ,just having the open dialogue about, look, we know that you’re probably going to be experimenting and also, you know, that. Addiction runs strong on mom’s side, and if you ever feel like you want to talk about the way your drinking has changed or if you ever have a concern about the way that you drink or, you know, don’t want to drink, you know, kind of normalizing that too.

 

That. You do know who you can talk to. And I think that, you know, in those moments, those aren’t usually the times that they open up. You can set the stage about, you know, what you can talk about.

[00:51:00]

Usually, when I bring that up, they’re like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I don’t want to talk about this with you.

It’s so weird. But then, you know, they’ll say things that I don’t notice about. You know, oh my, my friend’s mom doesn’t drink too. You guys should talk to each other. Or you know, my friends think it’s really cool that you don’t drink and you still go to parties or things like that, you know? So they’re watching, and I think so much of it comes from just the behavior and the modeling of it and what that says to them for some of the intensity of the conversations.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s interesting. On our side, because obviously I quit drinking. So Hank was eight, Lila was two, and then for a long time, say three years, I just wanted the fact that I no longer drank to be like one small thing about me. I did not want it to be defining in any way. I was just like, whereas before I was like, I’m a wife, a mom, live in Seattle, work in marketing.

[00:52:00]

I’m a red wine girl. It was just like, wife, mom, live in Seattle, work in marketing, quit drinking. You know, like it was, it was one of six things. And so for a long time my family, like, they celebrated my sober. Anniversaries and stuff. Like, I remember when I turned a thousand days, my husband and son went and got this huge glass thing from one of the craft stores and literally picked out like 1000 little glass marbles and put ’em in there and had them on the kitchen table.

When I came down, it was the sweet. Thing. I still have it in my office. It’s super cute. Oh. But so, and that was before I was coach, before I was sober, coach, before I had a podcast. So it was certainly something that like, hey, I’m really proud of myself and hey, you hit two years. This is awesome. Mm-hmm.

But it wasn’t something we really talked about other than Mom stopped drinking, dad still drinks. And then once I became a coach and a podcast host, we talk about it a lot more.

[00:53:00]

Mm-hmm. Because, you know, oh, I just interviewed this person about that, or we were having this conversation about why, but it’s been like, I, like you have no illusions that my kids are never going to drink.

I mean, I was all about that shit when I was in college, right? Like, I hope that they are much smarter than I am about it, and I think the new generations are, they know more about. Mm-hmm. Like the role of alcohol is sexual assaults and the role of alcohol in anxiety and depression and with. The internet and cell phones and live streaming, like they are much more cautious than we were in terms of not getting blackout, stupid drunk.

But Lila especially who’s now 11, is like extraordinarily well versed in all things alcohol and addiction and like how it feels and whether it’s good for you and what the physical ramifications are. Girlfriend is trouble and she’s totally going to drink, but she knows. She knows right.

So maybe we’re just doing better by opening the conversation and letting them know they can change. I, I think so. ’cause we didn’t talk about it in my family, you know, I mean, me neither, nothing.

[00:54:00]

And so, I think there was always like some, there was shame around it, you know, and like sneakiness and I don’t want that for our kids, you know?

Yeah. And they’re not going to tell us everything. And you know, I have realistic expectations about that, but I think, you know. You were talking earlier about the community and the support, and that’s what helped. You be successful in giving up drinking. And that’s what AA was for me, you know?

Yeah. For every time I tried to give up drinking, I didn’t tell anybody. I was quiet about it. I just hoped nobody would notice. I was like, you know, so, so anxious about it, and so. That’s, I think what made all the difference for me, yeah. Was like when I stopped doing it on my own is when it stuck. And that’s what you need. You need people who understand, like even if someone supports you in not drinking, if they don’t get it about why it’s hard or how you feel or why it’s scary, like all you need people who get it.

 

[00:55:00]

Absolutely. So, I think that that, you know, as long as our kids know where to go if and when they get, yeah. In a situation that feels uncomfortable or it’s too much, or they notice some addictive behaviors or patterns, they know who to go to.

 

Yeah. Yeah. ’cause we do understand. Yes. And I think women who’ve quit drinking are, are the least judgmental people I know. If you’re in the sobriety space, you’re like, oh yeah, I totally understand how that could have happened.

 

Uh huh. Yeah. Well, this has been awesome. How can people find your book, find you, follow up?

Sure. So, I’m pretty active on Instagram at Kelley, K-E-L-L-E-Y, Kitley, K-I-T-L-E-Y. @kelleykitley I post news clips and contributions that I’m on. You can get my book exclusively on Amazon. It’s called MY self, and you can view Gray Area, which is about an 18 minute short film on YouTube.

[00:56:00]

Great. I will find all those links and put ’em in the show notes as well. Thank you.

Thank you so much.

 

Thank you so much. Thank you for this conversation. Thank you for taking the time to come on.

You’re very welcome. Thanks for having me.