SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Myers-Briggs Type (MBTI), Personality Types, Sobriety, ISFJ, 

SPEAKERS: Casey McGuire Davidson + Kate Kimberley

Welcome to the Hello Someday Podcast, the podcast for busy women who are ready to drink less and live more. I’m Casey McGuire Davidson, ex-red wine girl turned life coach helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it wasn’t that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and drinking a bottle of wine and night to unwind. I thought that wine was the glue, holding my life together, helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job and my busy life. I didn’t realize that my love affair with drinking was making me more anxious and less able to manage my responsibilities.

In this podcast, my goal is to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating and living a life you don’t want to escape from.

Each week, I’ll bring you tools, lessons and conversations to help you drink less and live more. I’ll teach you how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture without a bus, how to sit with your emotions, when you’re lonely or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self soothe without a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life.

I am so glad you’re here. Now let’s get started.

Well, hi there. I’m really excited for the topic we’re diving into today because I’m bringing on a guest for an in depth conversation about how understanding yourself, your sensitivities and your preferences can help you be kinder to yourself, have more confidence in your strengths, and understand why in certain situations, and environments, and relationships, you can feel uncertain and uncomfortable and how to adjust for them. 

 

I just started doing this work a few months ago, and I wish that I had this information years ago, both when I was drinking and pushing down anxiety about what I was experiencing at work, and in early sobriety to help me navigate the world. When I was feeling like I was walking around with all my nerves exposed and without my outer layer of skin. Gaining perspective will help you navigate your daily life without feeling like you need the numbing protection of alcohol, to shut down your brain at the end of the day, and to push down your anxiety and to relax. 

 

My guest today is Kate. We met three years ago at an incredible yoga retreat on Salt Spring Island in British Columbia. I went to the retreat when I had been sober for about a year and a half. And I was amazed at how being surrounded by women on the same path, talking and sharing and doing yoga in the morning and the afternoon. I slept in a yurt and we ate incredible organic farm meals three times a day. It all brought back joy I hadn’t felt in years. I’ll share the links to the retreats. They’re put on by She Recovers in the show notes of this episode. I’ve attended two retreats in Salt Spring Island, and I’m really excited to go to my first one in Mexico in February of 2021. Kate and I connected immediately at this retreat. And she’s not only a wonderful human being, but is also certified to administer and interpret the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator assessment, and is trained in dare to lead by Bernie Brown, which helps women step out with greater courage in any area of their lives. So let’s dive in. 

 

Casey: Kate, welcome to the Hello someday Podcast. I am so glad you’re here.

 

Kate: Thank you so much for inviting me, Casey. It’s a really exciting opportunity to talk about something that I think can make such a difference in people’s lives. And I remember meeting you so clearly at that retreat in Salt Spring. And you’re right, we did connect immediately. I’m also excited to hear that you are headed to Mexico in February 2021. I might need to check my calendar. It’d be nice to go on another retreat.

 

Casey: Yeah, I’m going with a good friend of mine in Ingrid, who I know you’re, as well. It’s been on our bucket list for a couple years now. Kate, I’m really excited about this conversation. And to start, I’d love to hear a little bit about your decision to stop drinking and how you came to that.

 

Kate: Well, and you’re right, Casey, I remember meeting you very distinctly at the retreat on Salt Spring Island in 2017. And that retreat, I believe it was my second retreat, with She Recovers. The first one that I went to was in May 2016, in Mexico, and I was there…I was really drawn to going to the retreat. Interestingly, not to do with any substance use, not to do with alcohol. I was knee deep and workaholism. I had separated from my partner, headed towards divorce. And I really remember booking it actually on New Year’s Eve 2015, just saying I need something wellness oriented. My life was in all kinds of chaos. Probably wouldn’t be too strong of a word. And then when I got to the retreat, I remember one of the things that I thought of the week before was, you know, the thought of going to a retreat on the beach in Mexico and not drinking. I mean, who does that, right? 

 

Casey: I know, right? 

 

Kate: And this is part of the wellness, and there’s going to be yoga. And so when I would tell friends or colleagues of mine, I would say that it was kind of like well, it’s like a really, you know, wellness oriented and, you know, you know, how could you not have, you know, margaritas to get you know, giving me a hard time about it. And to be honest, I was struggling with it because I associated having a good time with drinking, and vice versa. And so I thought, ooh, boy, did I do the right thing? I mean, I booked this five months ago. But I went, and it was absolutely transformative. Most of the women there I would say, were on the path of sobriety and questioning the role of alcohol or substance use in their lives, amongst other things. And I remember having a conversation with Jean McCarthy, who’s there from the “bubble hour”.,

 

Casey: Yeah. She’s the host of the bubble hour. I was in one of the episodes, and I think you were too.

 

Kate: I did. And she is lovely. I really connected with her. She’s a fellow Canadian. She’s from Alberta. And as I was listening to some of the stories of some of the women on a sharing, around kind of signals or signs of how they knew that alcohol was not a healthy part of their lives. I was…it was like listening. It was like a mirror to my own life. And yet I hadn’t been drawn to that retreat, to think about the role of alcohol in my life, but it was it. I mean, it was front and center in my mind, you know, behaviors like hiding your drinking or, you know, topping up a glass, but not really letting anybody know. It’s like, Oh, this is my first glass, but it’s actually your third. Yes. And people even as closest, like your partner, kind of not being honest with them about your drinking. And I kind of thought, Well, I do that.

 

And I’m thinking it but you know, and it kind of helped me tap into some of the feelings intuitively saying, Yeah, I know that’s not good. But to be honest, it was not the primary thing for me that was in front of me as an issue in my life at the moment. So.. but it really got and more importantly, perhaps I had a fantastic time. Yes. No drinking for a week didn’t after the second day, didn’t even think of it. So it… it really all of these myths around how do you have fun without drinking? Right? How do you have a gathering of people without a cooler of beers? And, you know, it was in my adult life, you know, easily a couple of decades since something like that had happened.

 

Casey: And I tell the people I work with in coaching all the time, I’m like, have you ever tried to see whether that is incredibly fun because of drinking or whether you just have always happened to drink during that thing, which is incredibly fun. And most of us never attempt to do these things like you were saying, a Mexican beach for a week without drinking. So it’s really hard to separate whether your life is fun because of drinking, or you just happen to drink in every scenario?
Kate: Exactly. You just have such a strong association with it culturally and otherwise, that you know, to make a break from that isn’t something that we do unless you there’s “like a problem”.

 

But you know, so that was kind of the early path for me that I would say. The one of the reasons that I think it’s really fitting and appropriate to talk about the Myers Briggs Type Indicator, and in the context of the work that and coaching that you do, Casey, is that it’s reflecting on and being more self aware, around the role that alcohol plays in our lives usually means that there’s some kind of introspection going on. There’s some kind of reflection about checking in. It’s like, What is going on? What’s going on with my marriage, my relationships, my engagement at work, my kids? And when you’re getting a better sense of self understanding about things like, you know, what makes you, you. You know, what are some of the tools that can help you along the way? And as a practitioner of The MBTI, I see it as, as one tool, it’s really neutral information to help understand what your unique preferences are in the world. You mentioned that at the beginning. I’ve done lots of individual and group and workplace interpretations over the years. And I think it’s really important, right from the outset, to make it really clear that you know, this is not about pigeonholing people. So for example, You could have someone who’s an ENFP learn that their co-worker also has an ENFP preference. But there’s lots of things about them that are very different, as individuals. But they might also learn about what some of those commonalities are, which is, which is, you know, part of the learning process and being able to, you know, use the MBTI for those purposes. But again, you know, we’re all unique individuals. And MBTI is a tool to assess and understand what some of our unique gifts are and learn about others and use it as the ability to the way that I kind of explain it as you know, when you’re in this process of use the analogy of peeling back the onion about who we are particularly around midlife, there’s a concept of nature and nurture, right. So how much of who we are at age, for example 40, is who we were when we were five year old. It’s really our essence versus what we’ve developed over time by external influences. Could be our parents, could be society could be, you know, some, some of us are people pleasers, if you have the ability, a tendency, you know, towards codependency you know, you might ask, so what’s me? And what’s the influence of, of the world as a whole? And I’m not saying that necessarily doing the Myers Briggs is going to, because it’s, it’s, it’s something you fill out yourself. So you’re still providing that information. But, you know, I think it’s a way to explore that and reflect on what you know what your unique preferences are.

 

Casey: I think that’s so true. And I loved when you said the word essence because that really resonates with me. And since I’ve stopped drinking, obviously, and even before I was on, you know, maybe it’s midlife, maybe it’s something else, this path of self self discovery. And one of the things I see is, I was internalizing the values of my parents. What they thought were, you know, goldstar behaviors I should be. And after doing some work, I realized that I was overcompensating and sort of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, because my parents thought the square peg was the best. Does that make sense?

 

Kate: It absolutely does. And it reminds me of a conversation that you and I had recently. And maybe I’ll kind of… I’ll talk a bit about it now. Yeah. You know, when we look into You know, what is something that I’ve been doing? And how I’ve been, you know, making choices in my life or, or living in a certain way? Because I know that I get external validation from it versus is that really who I am?

 

Yeah, it’s the power of an influence of extroverts in our world.

 

And I think that introverts really get a bad rap. Because they’re, you know, it’s associated with like, you know, being shy or inhibited. And perhaps even like, no bookish, and extroverts are really where the action is. And it’s important in the context of the Myers Briggs type assessment to kind of make sure we break down some of those misunderstandings because that’s not what extraversion and introversion mean in the context of The MBTI. But also, I think that particular dichotomy is a place to really look at how introverts bring some unique gifts to the world. And we know that one of the things you look at, the leadership literature, you know, Brené Brown talks about it very much in her latest book, Dare To Lead, is the power of asking questions and listening. And introverts, that’s one of their strengths, is listening. Yeah, and in processing and taking time. 

 

If you have an introvert in the workplace or in your family, and they speak up, it’s very likely that they have thought about what they’re going to say before they say it. And for extroverts, they might think, what a concept. I’m kind of thinking as I’m going along. Can you follow me? Yeah, maybe. I think 30 seconds ago, let me change that. And so and you know both preferences are important in terms of bringing kind of their unique gifts to the workplace but to the world. There’s a book that I’ll mention now, for any of your listeners, Casey, who are introverts or live with introverts or have children who are introverts. It was published in 2012. She’s a researcher. Her name is Susan Cain. And it’s called Quiet: The power of introverts in a world that can’t stop talking. And as we kind of go through, we’ll talk, you know, talk a bit more about MBTI in a moment, but if there is any kind of, you know, intersection, or the concept of introversion kind of comes out in terms of you understanding your type or the types of the people around you. I’ve read the book, it was actually a book club pick. Several years ago in my book club, we do…we, I’ve been part of a non fiction Book Club. And it was probably one of the best discussions we’ve ever had.

 

Casey: And one thing I find with, for example, some of the women on coaching and I, and I think it was myself too, when you go to events where you don’t, you aren’t as comfortable, maybe it’s a work happy hour, maybe it’s a company party, maybe it’s a school PTA event with a bunch of other parents. A lot of people feel that drinking makes the interaction more easy. It helps make them more extroverted. And I think you’re going to talk about that that’s a misconception of what extraversion is. But it’s a crutch, that a lot of us think that we need to behave in the way that we think we should to be the life of the party to keep conversations going to get rid of some of that awkwardness that we all feel and we One of the things I talk about with my clients is go to an event that you typically would drink at, and actually ask questions, observe what’s going around, you have deeper conversations. And you might actually figure out that it’s more fun. I mean, you’ll certainly leave without a hangover. And remember, all the conversations you had is a plus, as well. But you certainly are more present and you don’t realize how absent you are when you’re focused on drinking. So that idea of I need to drink to be an extrovert and to present myself in the best way at events. One, that version of extraversion may not be the correct one. That definition may be off, which I think you taught me, but also, it’s not necessarily that drinking and being the life of the party is presenting your best self.

 

Kate: I think…I think all… all true on that, Casey. Yeah.

If you’re listening to this episode and have been trying to take a break from drinking, but keep starting and stopping and starting again, I want to invite you to take a look at my on demand coaching course, The Sobriety Starter Kit®. The Sobriety Starter Kit® is an online self study, sober coaching course that will help you quit drinking and build a life you love without alcohol without white knuckling it or hating the process. The course includes the exact step-by-step coaching framework I work through with my private coaching clients, but at a much more affordable price than one-on-one coaching. And The Sobriety Starter Kit® is ready, waiting and available to support you anytime you need it, when it fits into your schedule.  You don’t need to work your life around group meetings or classes at a specific day or time. This course is not a 30 day challenge, or a one day at a time approach. Instead, it’s a step-by-step formula for changing your relationship with alcohol. The course will help you turn the decision to stop drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision of your life. You will sleep better and have more energy, you’ll look better and feel better, you’ll have more patience and less anxiety. And with my approach you won’t feel deprived or isolated in the process. So if you’re interested in learning more about all the details, please go to www.sobrietystarterkit.com. You can start at any time and I would love to see you in the course.

 

Casey: I noticed a little bit, you know, when I’m pretty, you know, somewhat new to the Myers Briggs. And you mentioned earlier a bunch of four letter acronyms that I’m guessing the people listening to this…because I didn’t…may not know what an ENFP is versus an INFP whatever,right? May we know a little more about that?

 

Kate: All right, let’s do that… sounds great. So, um, The MBTI, the Myers Briggs type assessment indicator. So The MBTI, the Myers Briggs Type Indicator, is based on the theories of Carl Jung. It was created in the 1950s by a research team. There’s a bit of history if anybody’s interested in looking and looking back on that. But it looks at personality preferences. Different dichotomies, and that kind of, you know, we’ll jump into what that looks like. 

 

There’s four different dichotomies, and the first one extraversion or introversion. And what that’s about in the theory of Myers Briggs, it’s about where you draw energy from, and what you pay attention to. And the next dichotomy is sensing or intuition. And what that focuses on is how you take in information in the world around you. The third one is thinking or feeling. And that’s really focused on how you make decisions. And the fourth dichotomy, the judging or perceiving is how, as an individual, how you deal with the outside world. 

 

Now, when you hear those four letter combinations, that’s because there’s 16 possible combinations of the Myers Briggs when they’re called types. And there’s also a lot of dynamic interactions between the types, there’s like a dominant function, auxiliary function. I’m not going to get into a whole lot about that today. But, you know, I think it might be, you know, a way for listeners to understand this and kind of get a sense of it as well. Let’s talk about a couple of examples. Okay. So, um, the Myers Briggs can be used in a lot of different settings in terms of like, teamwork, you know, to understand what your coworkers strengths and preferences are. In relationships, and, you know, and Gosh, thinking of different environments, you know, teamwork, people who are on a kind of a career development, re exploration track is to kind of go back and say, I’m really rethinking a career process. decisions about what kind of occupation and there’s some… the Myers Briggs can be really helpful there.

 

Casey: Yeah, I actually really want my husband to take it…kind of diving into it. We’ve been married for 18 years and… and I know him and there are certainly parts of him that are wonderful and I so appreciate it and other parts that you know, I realized with myself that I’m very uncomfortable with dis heart. I’m not. I really love harmony chips in all ways and I always and I’m sensitive to negative emotions, even if they’re not directed at me just if they’re in my same space. I’ve always tried to make him accommodate my sensitivities. And I think it might help me to intellectually understand him better.

 

Kate: Absolutely. I, with previous partners, I’ve always, perhaps not in the first few weeks, I’ve always done the Myers Briggs with them. 

 

Casey: That was funny. I’m sure they’d loved that…

 

Kate: They’re like, okay, Now, I can kind of figure it out, you know, without them actually doing the online indicator or old school from years ago, it was a paper indicator but what.. So, you know, if you don’t mind Casey, let’s jump in. Let’s.. I want to.. I want to kind of hone in on that example that you said around, you know, really wanting harmony and you know, your Myers Briggs type that ENFJ extroverted intuitive feeling and judging. That NF combination, and it appears and four of the 16 types is what it’s called as the idealists and, you know, really focused on some of the ENFJ it’s, and it’s so interesting, you know, given you know, the work that you’re doing and the gifts that you have, that you’re bringing to the world, you know, it’s the big theme for the ENFJ is mentoring. By tapping into and seeing the potential of people and becoming… you know, helping people become more of who they are using your communication skills, warmth. What are the ideal so again idealists, right? So, looking at what are the ideals? And how can we be closer to what our ideals are? Bringing out the best in others. And there’s lots of lots of gifts. And then there’s always things based on our preference, where we, what’s called, based on Jung – it’s kind of a shadow. So what are the areas that we might not be paying attention to? Or what are the areas that bring us out of preference and conflict, right? Something and absent of conflict. It’s a bit of a tough one because the need and the wish for harmony really requires conflict to be openly acknowledged and addressed. I’m going to throw a bit of a different lens on this versus some of the Myers Briggs types. And I’ll put mine out there as an example. The ENTJ. So that NT, the intuitive sensing thinking and feeling so that NT combination of those two dichotomies, you know, you better be prepared if you’re an ENFJ. Or if you have any NF combination, maybe you’re an INFP. And you’re doing a presentation, say for your team at work. And you’ve got NT’s on your team, make room for debate. Make room for being challenged.

 

Casey: which can feel like conflict, but it’s not.

 

Kate: And that’s the power of understanding preferences. Because if you perceive someone saying, hold on, hold on, I want to go back to that slide. What do you mean when you said this? What evidence do you have to back that up? An NT, what’s fundamental to that type is, rational. Evidence Based helped me understand this, I need to understand, you know, what is some of the evidence? They’re very, very structurally, you know, there’s a structure there’s a path.

 

And also, as opposed to an ST, an NT wants to understand the big picture. So the questions that the NT is asking isn’t so much questioning you on your facts. It’s helped me understand what you said, so I can get the overall message of what you’re saying as an NF as an idealist. So, you know, and that kind of dynamic from a preference perspective, the NF the idealist the NT’s the rationals, guardians the SJ’s very focused on…on the between the sensing and intuitive dichotomy very focused on facts. And the J is kind of wanting structure. So SJs are really important because they play such an important role in the world, you know, overseers, supervisors, protectors. You think about law enforcement or accountants, you need people who generally have those preferences.

 

Casey: It’s funny that you put accountants and law enforcement in the same category. I would never think that those personality preferences would be one…similar.

 

Kate: When studies are done, and this is one of the things that’s really one of the strengths of The MBTI as a tool, as a, as a preference indicator is that, there’s been longitudinal studies and to validate the instrument, and they’ve done studies to look at what the overall distribution of occupations are, by the 16 types. And, and again, I’ll go back to my caveat that absolutely everybody brings their individual history, their individual influence, their cultural background, their gender perspective, you know, whatever their life experiences. And I think that’s really important, you know, to provide that context. But the research does show that according to type and preference in this assessment, that occupations do fall into some of the common quadrants. And the SJ, the guardians, tend to be those who very much are focusing on, you know, for that, that S preference. Just the Facts. What, where, when, why and how, yes and I need to know that. And so, the other preference type on that dichotomy is the intuitive. So what they might say is Yeah, okay, I can see it all now, I get the big picture. Future oriented, you know, looking at possibilities, getting the big picture.

 

An example around the sensing types and intuitive types. Use an example here when it comes to communication. If you think in the workplace, I was involved in a project at one point where it was a large 900 person organization, where our employee intranet needed to be redone. And being kind of the Senior Leader who was accountable for that, you know, my role was looking at you know, quality time making Ensure it met user needs budget, all those kind of things. And I had a vision for what some of the improvements could be for that intranet. Was I the right person to really get involved in to our meetings going through the information architecture? No, right, not only because the, you know, the role I had in the organization, but the kind of meetings and engagement that I would have with the team was very much, you know, at that kind of vision level, and trusting and making sure the people around you that you’ve got someone who has that sensing type preference, to go through and understand all of the details and ask all the questions and make sure you’re asking users everything you need to know, you know, to build that. Yeah, in terms of the S and the N dichotomy. I think that’s perhaps an explanation for that. 

 

Casey: Quick question for you. I know a lot of the women that listen to this may identify as people pleasers, or overachievers, that’s kind of two areas that I hear a lot about. The idea of being nice. They have overflowing to do lists, they have a lot of responsibilities. They’re super busy. They’re trying to exceed in every area of their life, whether it’s work or home, and they’re really feeling overwhelmed by it all. Or like, it’s unsustainable. Is there a personality type? Or can you tell me the different personality types and how that may contribute or support or cause tension with that sort of, like feel like so many of us are in that place right now. And when I was doing that, I kept looking around and saying, how come everyone else can cope with this Whereas I can’t? And I’m sure all of that was internal and people on the outside couldn’t see. And yet I felt like I was breaking to some extent. And let’s be clear, drinking a bottle of wine did not help that situation.

 

But just curious about the Myers Briggs and may or may not help or not help that sort of building your schedule to overwhelm.

 

Kate: I think the most important value out of doing an assessment such as the Myers Briggs Type Indicator, is to figure out what are some of the preferences that you have as an individual when you find out… Okay, let’s say that you’re.. you do the assessment and your type comes out as let’s say an ISFJ. So you have an intuitive preference, sensing, feeling preference and judging and Once you know, whatever and whatever those types represent, once you know that, and you are able to take that and reflect on what are the areas of your life, where you may be operating out of preference. Because when you operate out of preference, It’s energy. There’s exhaustion. And none of us in this world have the ability to say. Okay, I did my Myers Briggs and I’m going to only.. I’m going to live my type. And my job has to be 100%. And my family, like I want to be in preference-100% of the time, it’s not going to happen. But if you are peeling back the onion, learning about yourself, making some changes and some shifts to say, you know, I want to show up in the world and be authentic and I want to, not go to work as only means to a paycheck. If you do that, and you see that the role that you have is, is, is a mismatch in whatever balance doesn’t work for you, you’ve learned something. Right? So if you learn that being in sales. And being in sales with a growing quota, or the performance bonus percentage is really where the, you know, the majority of the compensation will come from. If you are an introvert, and again, it doesn’t mean that you can’t do sales. But an introvert will thrive in a sales environment through building 1-on-1 relationships. If the way that you do sales and your organization is constant presentations, And networking in ways that might be draining your energy. You know, you get to make a decision and say, oh, okay, that’s what might not be fitting for me. And you don’t make a shift based on anything that a website or a piece of paper says that the assessment needs to really resonate with you. It’s a tool that you say, Okay, that makes sense. That’s, that’s what it is. If you so, let’s focus on the ISFJ again. This is a person who wants to know the facts, who, what, where, when and how, and needs to be really grounded, like if there’s a presentation or a team meeting. And it’s like, what do we need to do by when and what’s expected. And you have a supervisor who’s telling you about the latest management brainstorm session and doesn’t get down to a level where you can understand what does it mean for you? And that’s where what it means is it doesn’t mean that your supervisor or manager doesn’t appreciate the details, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t accountable and appreciative of the work of the team. What it means is that they have a different preference. And so it’s appreciating and having a dialogue that’s respective of that, you know, to know that when you think about the difference between if there’s a thinking and feeling preference. And again, I’m going to use a workplace example because that’s, that’s what I’m most familiar with, from a communication point of view. Those with an I’ll use, go with kind of the NF and intuitive feeler and intuitive thinker, use those two preferences. Someone who’s got the NF preference is really because they are those idealists and they’re very much focused on looking at the impact of decisions in the workplace and when thinking about people as an individual, you’re also going to be looking for feedback as a person. And it’s not going to be just every two weeks that you’re bi weekly, or quarterly or once a year at your performance review. And for NFs, that feedback is a powerful motivator. And it’s huge. It’s powerful stuff.

 

Casey: That’s 100%. That’s me. Like, I had a boss who was super cut and dry, who didn’t give a lot of positive feedback. Who didn’t give a lot of reactions at all, in any way. And it was extremely unsatisfying for me. I had a job, a boss previously in the exact same role, exact same job, who had a different style and I was extremely motivated. I think it would have helped me to know that it wasn’t me. Or it wasn’t her, it was just her style. And I did not have that understanding. I felt like she didn’t value me. When it was, it wasn’t necessarily that. It was just that because of my preference. 

 

Kate: I do feel that millions of NFs are with you on that, Casey.

 

Um, you know, and one of the strategies in that situation and one of the, you know, one of the strategies that that I’m aware of that’s been used effectively in that situation is, if your supervisor is an NT, the times where you may get feedback from them is related to corrections or clarifications or feedback that can get you I noticed x, you know, can you revise this. Can you take another look at it? So, they’re clearly engaged and knowing what’s going on with your portfolio and your accountabilities, but the time that they might be in touch relates to, you know, what is seen as Oh, great. I hear from my boss when you know, when it’s something that isn’t positive.

 

Casey: Or I did 17 things right. And all I hear about is the three things…

 

Kate: Absolutely. And, you know, for some folks, this can be the family meeting or a date night or You know, it’s you know, explicitly saying things like gratitude exercises, right? Things that we, you if you’re an NT and you’ve got like you are focusing on your deficiencies, and the deficiencies around you and things that are wrong, it’s like, we need to understand our type. And what are some of the strategies that can bring us into better self awareness and bring us into a place where we are more balanced and paying attention to things around us.

 

Casey And what I liked earlier that you said is that it’s understanding yourself, to empower you to get what you need. And I think a lot of times when we’re drinking, we aren’t able to communicate clearly enough to get what we need, or we blame ourselves because we drink too much and then we’re hung over and we’re over. compensating and self sabotaging. So you don’t, you’re in that cycle and you don’t realize that, hey, regardless of that, or maybe that’s a symptom of not getting what I need. And part of that is because I’m not communicating it, or I’m not even aware, I’m beating myself up because I feel this way. But I feel this way for a reason. And there’s nothing wrong. I always say, like, there are no bad emotions. Any negative emotion is simply a signal that you’re not getting what you need. 

 

Kate: That’s right.

 

Casey: So Kate, I know we’ve we’ve gone into a bunch of examples in situations of different personality types, and how they may affect your interactions and your self perceptions as you navigate the world, but can we come up a level and just give the listeners sort of a broad picture view of the Myers Briggs and what you should know about it?

 

Kate: Absolutely. I would say that there’s three things Casey. The first thing I’d say is, as an assessment, the Myers Briggs is a tool to help you get to know yourself. What makes you, you. What makes you tick? What makes you unique? And this is a time where, you know, we may be going through a lot of reflection and assessment and looking back, and looking forward. And it’s an opportunity to check in, get out of your head a little bit and have something that’s a really well researched, validated tool to give you some information and learn about yourself. 

 

The second thing is, how can you use that information to understand and appreciate others. That can be your family, it’s the workplace. It can be your, it can be anyone. But when you understand yourself better, it helps you understand and appreciate others as well. And what Myers Briggs does, is it shows what your gifts and your preferences are. And even if the people in your family don’t also do the assessment, you know, chances are you might have a sense and say, Wow, if I’ve got that really strong need for the deadline and everything that we do, can we please put it on the family calendar and why won’t people listen to me? It’s not because they don’t want to it’s because they’re like, Well, it might change. I don’t know what’s gonna happen Saturday. That’s why I’d write it on there, Okay? So it’s like, oh, they don’t you know, maybe your partner doesn’t feel the needs to. Just keep it open. I don’t I didn’t RSVP yet, because I wasn’t sure. So you understand, right?

 

Casey: Yeah. And you could be like, Why doesn’t he value me? Why can’t he support me and what I need? The truth is, he can have his own preferences and is wondering why you’re trying to nail him down. It’s just, it’s just a different preference, which when you’re in it, it feels personal.

 

Kate: Exactly. And I think that’s actually an excellent point, Casey is that, you know, the the assessment, The MBTI type allows you to see kind of what your unique preferences are, that you’re doing, because that’s kind of your operating system, right? And your partner and he might have a different operating system. Now, having said that, to understand and appreciate others, and to live, you know, under the same roof sometimes means that we do need to work on a preference. So, it might mean that, when there’s an agreement that people are going to put stuff on the family calendar, even though that might not be the first thing that comes to mind for them, that they do it. And also when something gets missed, that there’s some flexibility and some leeway. 

 

Casey: Yeah, yeah. 

 

Kate: The third thing that I think is really powerful about The MBTI assessment, is that, those insights that you’ve gained from getting to know yourself to understand and appreciate others, it’s take those insights, and what can you do, to put them into action? So you’ve learned you’ve got that knowledge, but that’s really just the beginning. So what can you do about it? And, you know, I’ve mentioned MBTI is used for people who are doing kind of career exploration, it’s, it’s applied in the workplace around teams and conflict. And.. but there’s so many ways, you know, you know, what, what can you do with that information? And it may be that you, you know, want to do The MBTI because you’ve always heard about it and, or you did a, you know, online assessment, you know, five years ago, and you’re just curious to see where things are at. You don’t have to necessarily turn it into action. But depending on on what your objectives are, and again, peeling back that onion around self awareness and to see at a time of change in your life, when you’re making changes that are, you know, focused on just making the shift to feel more authentic. To change behaviors that have become routine, but you just know aren’t working for you. And, and that’s where, you know, for me, I mean, I, I alcohol is, is not a part of my life, because I made the choice that it just didn’t work for me. I’m not sure for me necessarily. The Myers Briggs was part of that, but self learning and self assessment was. Those are the three things I’d say Get to know yourself, understand and appreciate others. And then with that knowledge that you’ve learned, how are you going to put it into action? If you feel like it, if that’s what if that’s what works for you?

 

Casey: And I think it just helps women who are often so hard on themselves and have such a strong inner critic voice, give themselves more grace and forgive themselves for not measuring up to what their parents have told them they should be, or what the workplace values or what their bosses is telling them to be. Or maybe a partner who says Why are you so sensitive? Just understanding who you are helps you navigate the world. Give yourself a little more self awareness and understanding and focus on what your strengths are. Because I feel like you mentioned the shadow we deal with is the shadow all we think about ourselves is the shadow and not the benefits of the way we function in the world. So, I think that’s really helpful. 

 

Kate, I think those three things that people should know about the Myers Briggs and how it can apply to them, their life and the ways it can contribute are really important. And I’m glad you summarized it so clearly because I have trouble doing that. But if women listening to this want to dig a little deeper, they want to understand what their type is, what their preferences are, and how to apply it to their lives. Do you have a couple of resources that you think would be helpful to refer these women to? And I will also, of course, put anything you mentioned in the show notes for our listeners so they can access that?

 

Kate: Yeah, there are some good online resources. The way that MBTI works as a company is that they train employees to certify people such as myself, across the world, actually. But particularly, there’s two companies. They’re different companies, one in the US and one in Canada, but there’s good online resources that are what I call kind of reasonable approximations. And officially, I’m not really supposed to actually say this, but I will. One of the websites, it’s https://www.idrlabs.com/. And they have an online self assessment that I have used before. It approximates The MBTI test. And so that’s, uh, I think, you know, if you want to give it a go, take a look, do the assessment and, and, and then there are resources on… I think it’s actually Myers briggs.com is the US company that does certifications and training. There’s so much MBTI on the internet. So much MBTI information on the internet. It’s really a bit of a crapshoot. So I would say https://www.idrlabs.com/ And then https://ap.themyersbriggs.com/. To get some more kind of more official information.

 

Casey: And I know you are also able to do the assessment.

 

Kate: I do. So, I’m certified in Canada through a company called psychometrics Canada. And the way that I work with clients is doing an online assessment. And then normally for a while, especially now in the world of COVID-19, doing zoom or FaceTime interpretation meetings. So what I’d like to do is invite any of your listeners Casey who are interested in doing the official MBTI assessment and having an interpretation meeting. I’m offering that for $99 U.S. and would just love to explore what The MBTI means for you in your life, and then leave you with some resources to explore it on your own further.

 

Casey: I think that would be really helpful. And thank you for offering that to the listeners. I will put your contact information and how they can get in touch with you in the show notes of this episode. And I think I’m going to have to take advantage of that myself. Because I’ve done it at a high level, I have to admit, I did it through the internet. So I don’t know if I use the right resource, but I’m so interested in this. I don’t know if my husband will go for it too, but we’ll see. But probably, he might. 

 

Kate: I have a feeling that you are persuasive Casey. 

 

Casey: Well, alright. So anything else you want to touch on? I think this has been so helpful and I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and to help share with us how this can help women in general life, in work life, as they’re quitting drinking, how to understand how to navigate the world so that they don’t feel like they need to numb out or have a substance to approach different situations. 

 

Kate: Absolutely. And I think you know, when this, when you’re going through a time of change, and not wanting to numb out and to learn, it’s pretty easy to get down and start focusing on what some of those, you know, what your limitations are, and maybe some mistakes or some things that you don’t like about your personality. And, you know, this is a way to just flip that. Get to know yourself, appreciate what your strengths are. Learn about how you can turn that into action and really feel empowered, to learn more about yourself. And that’ll really help in terms of taking the next steps forward. 

 

Casey: Great. Thank you so much. 

 

Kate: Thank you, Casey.